Help: buying used carbon wheels -- beware?

[akelman]

I'm considering buying a set of used carbon wheels. The wheels appear to be in very good shape, but there is one issue: the braking surface, which is carbon, has definitely been worn in a few spots. There are even a couple of locations where it looks like the clearcoat (or whatever was there) has been stripped away. These are small blemishes, mind you, but they're noticeable after careful examination. So, for those of you with experience using carbon wheels, is this a serious problem? I mean, I understand that used is used. And these wheels have clearly been well cared for. But I don't know enough about the material to be confident that this isn't a significant issue of concern. Thanks.

[regularguy412]

I only have a little over 1,000 miles on my carbon wheels. And,,, the brake track is fine, albeit, the brake track my Eastons is 'supposed' to be designed to be resistant to premature wear, dissipate heat,, etc.

I think knowing the brand and model of the wheels you are looking at would be of some help here. Maybe some pix, too.

Mike in AR:beer:

[akelman]

They're Campy Hyperon Ultras. And they're a great deal, is the thing. Let me see if I can get some pics of the (maybe) damaged area. Thanks.

[akelman]

Okay, here are some pics: 1 (http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/akelman/DSC_0110.jpg), 2 (http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/akelman/DSC_0111.jpg), 3 (http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/akelman/DSC_0112.jpg), 4 (http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/akelman/DSC_0113.jpg), 5 (http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/akelman/DSC_0114.jpg), and 6 (http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/akelman/DSC_0115.jpg).

In pic one, the issue can be seen at the top of the brake surface. The stuff below is sticker residue, I'm guessing. In pic three, you can see what's worrying me at the top of the brake surface (on the left): some of the clearcoat appears to (maybe) be cracking. Pic 4 shows the same thing, I think. In pics 5 and 6, you're seeing some tubular glue on the tire, some discoloration from the light reflecting on the rim, and then, finally, the same issue on the brake surface.

All of that said, having looked at these pictures, I think I'm being a doofus.

[rice rocket]

Pic 2 shows the most damage in my opinion. Could be tire lever damage.

[happycampyer]

It's really hard to tell from those pictures, and carbon often does funny things when photographed (especially with a flash), but I personally would not buy those wheels based on the pics. I have two sets of Hyperon Ultras, and the brake tracks are pristine. From the pics, it looks like the clear coat is cracking. Some of the streaks could be from brake pad glazing (although Campy carbon brake pads don't create that type of glazing on my rims)—was the owner using the correct pads? I'd want to make sure that the brake tracks are not scored. Also, I'm not sure what the coating is, but I doubt that it's something that you can just touch-up.

[akelman]

Pic 2 shows the most damage in my opinion. Could be tire lever damage.

And? You would: a) not buy wheels that had this kind of damage; b) buy wheels that had this kind of damage and not worry about it; c) ignore the desperate pleas of an advice-seeking doofus.

[akelman]

Some of the streaks could be from brake pad glazing (although Campy carbon brake pads don't create that type of glazing on my rims)—was the owner using the correct pads?

In terms of the clearcoat, if there are cracks, they're very small. Is that still a problem? Also, I don't know if he used the correct pads. But I do think that's what the streaks are from, so he probably didn't. Would you suggest trying to remove the streaks and seeing what's underneath? And if so, what would you use? Goo gone? Or something else? Regardless, thanks for the input.

[FlashUNC]

I'd see about cleaning the area up. Not an expert on carbon wheels by any means, but I'd be very wary of a brake track if it looked like that.

I wouldn't say this is a deal breaker. Just a "need a lot more info" kinda thing.

[130R]

what do you want to hear from us? Buy them cause they're hyperons? you'll look super baller with them?

either way, they are probably damaged, and will never work 100% the way you want.

if you have a feeling in your gut that they aren't worth it, don't get them. jeez.

they are just gucci wheels anyway.

[rice rocket]

And? You would: a) not buy wheels that had this kind of damage; b) buy wheels that had this kind of damage and not worry about it; c) ignore the desperate pleas of an advice-seeking doofus.

Tough question. Depends how good the deal is? Maybe ask the seller for clarification on the damage?

If it was "broken wheel prices", and it is actually destroyed there, I'd grab them and epoxy over it (sand to shape so your glueing interface isn't a blob after you glob it on), use it for climbing and hill repeats (low speed) for the first 100 miles or so. If all is well, maybe intentionally nail some potholes and make sure it's still structural. And if all is well, ride on.

That said, I'm also young and have no liabilities. I can afford to take some risks that some shouldn't take.

[Scott Shire]

akelman:

I'm going to be definitive, here. It's not worth it. If you're looking to carbon rather than alum handbuilt, you are seeking a performance advantage. Whether in terms of weight, aerodynamics, or the ability to combine the two, you feel that carbon will provide an edge. That advantage is difficult, if not impossible, to measure in real-world terms (I'm not saying it's not there just difficult to quantify). If you don't have the utmost confidence in your wheels, you'll lose that edge quickly -- braking earlier into turns, descending nervously, etc.

So measure the price difference to a new set and figure out how long you'll be eating spaghetti for dinner to save up.

The wheels don't feel right to you, or you would have pulled the trigger; you know enough to recognize a good deal. Don't look to be convinced.

[akelman]

Thanks for all of the help. I appreciate it.

[akelman]

what do you want to hear from us? Buy them cause they're hyperons? you'll look super baller with them?

either way, they are probably damaged, and will never work 100% the way you want.

if you have a feeling in your gut that they aren't worth it, don't get them. jeez.

they are just gucci wheels anyway.

No, I didn't want to hear that I should buy them. I wanted to hear from people who have experience with carbon wheels, because I don't. And I wanted to hear from those people because I don't trust my gut as much as I trust people who have experience. As for them being "gucci", whatever. They're reputed to be incredibly strong, incredibly light, and several people here have had excellent experiences with them. But yeah, I'd be grateful if you'd tell me I look "super baller". That would be awesome.

[Peter B]

These wheels will probably be fine. Campy builds great wheels and those wouldn't scare me away. I'd try cleaning the brake tracks w/ some gentle solvent and light scotchbrite. But unless you're getting them for $800 or less you might as well be looking at handbuilt AL wheels. Cheaper to buy, cheaper to repair/rebuild, better braking, as light or lighter.

[rice rocket]

But unless you're getting them for $800 or less you might as well be looking at handbuilt AL wheels. Cheaper to buy, cheaper to repair/rebuild, better braking, as light or lighter.
Not to derail this thread, but these are a little over 1100g. What aluminum builds come close to this weight?

[akelman]

Not to derail this thread, but these are a little over 1100g. What aluminum builds come close to this weight?

I think they weight 1230. Still, they're plenty light for me, certainly lighter than any other wheels I have. But they're also supposed to be strong. Anyway, please don't worry about derailing the thread. I'm not convinced it was ever on the rails. And I started it.

[A1CKot]

Not to derail this thread, but these are a little over 1100g. What aluminum builds come close to this weight?
Last I read, they were more like 1300 something. Aluminum handbuilts can come really close with profile and weight. If its a really good deal and you can afford it, go for it. If not pass and get some thing alloy and still cool.

[oldguy00]

I would definitely say no. You can get both Easton EC90 SLX's and Dura Ace C24s for less than 1200 if you hunt around, NEW. Both are great, and they all weigh about the same.
That said, I've ridden 1200 gram shallow wheels, and 1900 gram Cosmic Carbones back to back, and the carbones always felt faster, even when hills were involved.
I see less and less people dropping money on shallow carbon. If you want bling wheels, go for 45mm carbon wheels like Easton EC90 clinchers or tubies.
.02

[zap]

based on pics I would consider taking a closer look in person or just go for it if the price is right. Streaks will occur with any pad.

I have zipp 303 rims that are far worse, brake track bubbles felt through the brake lever. does not feel nice but the rim is solid but then again, not something I would sell.

[lhuerta]

The glaze shown on pics 1-4 could probably be cleaned up with a good cleaner. HOWEVER, pics 5 and 6 clearly show epoxy delamination, likely caused by heat build up, which cannot be cleaned up and are sure signs that the wheel's integrity has been compromised. In other words the epoxy has at some point melted and been displaced as a result.
LH

[mjb266]

How cheap? I'd run them...what's the worst that can happen. Carry a cell phone.

[Scott Shire]

How cheap? I'd run them...what's the worst that can happen. Carry a cell phone.

:eek:
The worst that could happen is nothing I like to consider, but a rim failure on a speedy descent... gulp. It's a very, very bad worst-case scenario.

[mjb266]

Considering it's a tubular rim (looks like conti comps) and the marking is most likely brake pad residue, cleanable w/acetone, if anything were to happen it would probably be somewhat underwhelming. Wheels don't just explode. Forks fail, downriver snap, handlebars break...but wheels usually give out in predictable ways. Mavic r-sys wheels aside, wheels are very reliable. It's not as if the sidewall is going to explode on a tubular unless you're riding the brakes for a ten mile descent and slam into a pot hole. I you're Doug that you should probably get a recumbent and stick to bike path.

The most common issue with prebuilt carbon rims is overheating on clinchers, blunt trauma, and broken spokes...not spontaneous combustion or some similar fate. Buy them and ride them or pass along the deal for someone who will.

[happycampyer]

It ultimately comes down to how much diligence you can perform and what the fair price is—$1,100 or $400 (basically buying the hubs to rebuild them). It's possible that the streaks are superficial and can be removed by using acetone or other non-abrasive solvent. In some of the pictures, it looks as if the surface of the rim is compromised. In pic # 1, it looks like the coating is peeling, and 5 and 6 could either show serious damage, e.g., delamination, or be a bad reflection from the flash.

Do you know the seller? Can you be certain that he used the correct brake pads? In my experience, the carbon-specific Campy brake pads do not create that type of streaking. The manual for the Hyperons specifically warns: ""Use of any other brake pads [other than the BR-RE701/2 etc.] could also seriously damage the rim." It also contains a more general warning: "Do not sand-paper the rim before installing the tubular tires. Do not perform any operations which may cause abrasions, scratches or cuts to the rim or which may damage it in any way. This damage could cause the rim to unexpectedly fail...."

The rims are incredibly strong. Depending on how serious the damage is and what caused it, I might be less concerned about spontaneous failure than I would be about not being able to stop properly.

[Ahneida Ride]

How cheap? I'd run them...what's the worst that can happen.

ask BBD about the worst that can happen.

[akelman]

Responding to questions: 1) The seller is a very nice guy, but I don't know him well. 2) He says that he used nothing but Swissstop Yellows, and I tend to believe him. Still, I can't know for sure. 3) Having spent about an hour working on the streaks with Goo Gone last night, most of them have largely disappeared. Some areas of discoloration are more stubborn, but the disappearance of most of the streaks suggests that the clearcoat has not been compromised. 4) That said, there are several tiny spots, all on the rear wheel, where the clearcoat has miniscule divots or what look like miniature pin pricks in it. These spots do not correspond with the location of the streaks, so I don't know what to make of them. Other than this: I almost certainly never would have noticed them had I not paid such close attention to the brake surface. So it's possible that these sorts of incredibly small imperfections are the norm in carbon. 5) They are what seems like a very good deal but not so crazy a deal that I would in effect just be buying the hubs. I don't feel comfortable saying more than that about the money side, as they're not my wheels, and pricing is up to the seller. If I end up not taking them, I'll ask if he'd like me to post his price in this thread in case someone else is interested in them.

For now, I'm inclined to bring the wheels over to the best shop in town, a shop that's pretty much floor-to-ceiling carbon, and ask someone there to look them over. I'll let you know what I hear. In the meantime, thanks for all of the feedback.

[itsalldark]

I'm just say'in--I would never ride a wheel that I had any doubts about. Not worth it at any price. No matter how cheap they are--they won't be cheap enough when your on the pavement. I can't believe this thread has gone on this long. REALLY!!

[Nelson99]

And ride them hard. All that wear is very superficial, and if these break, they will break when you slam a pothole. Any wheel could do that. They are not going to spontaneously combust. I like the suggestion about cleaning with acetone, then perhaps applying a thin coat of epoxy to the surface of the rim. But if I really wanted carbon rims I'd definitely ride those.

On another point, I think a third reason to buy carbon wheels if for the vibration dampening they provide. The dampening characteristics are very different from aluminium.

[fogrider]

the thing about carbon braking surface is that they need to be perfect. you want the pads to wear not the rims. if you were to get these, I would have them refinished by someone like calfee.

[mjb266]

I'm just say'in--I would never ride a wheel that I had any doubts about. Not worth it at any price. No matter how cheap they are--they won't be cheap enough when your on the pavement. I can't believe this thread has gone on this long. REALLY!!

People worry too much. Carbon rims are tough mo-fo's unless they hit a curb. Even then they don't implode... They just get soft sidewalls. All the overheating issues resulted in deformed sidewalls on clinchers...not melted sidewalls that released the tire bead. If these things are dead nuts true and there aren't any soft spots in the sidewall then they are good to go. I rode a car on rear that cracked on a pothole for a season of cross and it held up. I'm 185# and ride hard. The OP just isn't used tomseeing small resin pockets. If people remember the first generation Boras (i had one) they were full of holes. Structurally they were fine.

Take them for a test ride and give them all you've got. Sprint, brake hard and gently, take some hard corners and wear your helmet. If anything is up you'll figure it out. For Christ's sake, we used to ride 280 gram rims and think 330 gram rims were everyday wheels.

[wooly]

Ari - I had hyperon clinchers a number of years ago and they rank as one of my favorite wheelsets. Depending on the brake pads used, the brake streaks are probably fine but the break in the clear coat in some of the pics are what I would be worried about. I would pass based on that. There will be other smokin' deals out there.

[akelman]

Ari - I had hyperon clinchers a number of years ago and they rank as one of my favorite wheelsets. Depending on the brake pads used, the brake streaks are probably fine but the break in the clear coat in some of the pics are what I would be worried about. I would pass based on that. There will be other smokin' deals out there.

Yup, that was what had me worried too. But the guys at my LBS were quite certain that they're fine. I'm still on the fence, but I think they're probably worth a try.

[rugbysecondrow]

I can't speak to these wheels or to carbon at all, but I can echo the thoughts of somebody earlier who referenced doubt in equipment. If you buy these, even if they are deemed "safe", will you always notice these marks and will these imperfections bother you? Will this hamper your enjoyment of them. Will you question your equipment at a time when you ought to be focused on the ride or traffic?

If yes, then pass, if not, and you are sure about it, then listen to the experts and those you trust who have laid hands on the wheels.