FYI: PBK still crushing everyone on tire prices...

[rice rocket]

Just got this email blast. Dunno how they do it, but GP4000Ss are $65/pair w/ coupon code SPRING10.

That's what ONE tire costs at PerformanceBike. :confused:

[AngryScientist]

got that too...

i dont know how they do it, it must have something to do with the stuff being made across the pond and import taxes and VAT and other things.

thank god we can get these deals, or i wouldnt be able to afford to ride decent tires.

[oldpotatoe]

got that too...

i dont know how they do it, it must have something to do with the stuff being made across the pond and import taxes and VAT and other things.

thank god we can get these deals, or i wouldnt be able to afford to ride decent tires.

'Other things' is right...like go to factory with suitcase full of Euros...walk away with bunch 'o tires...'gray' market...a few suppliers in the US buy tires and rims in 'alternative' channels as well, like Michelin and Mavic.


errr, don't think god really cares about your tire prices tho....just guessing...

[Fixed]

that is a great price i paid 100 for 2 at my shop 66fixed in st pete .
but i like going there we are like minded and that is rare for me in my town
cheers

[djg]

'Other things' is right...like go to factory with suitcase full of Euros...walk away with bunch 'o tires...'gray' market...a few suppliers in the US buy tires and rims in 'alternative' channels as well, like Michelin and Mavic.

\

I don't really think that every British vendor of bike stuff with an Internet site is sending a rep to Thailand for a suitcase full of tires. I think that there are different distribution channels and we bypass the US stuff (and some of the duties -- and layers of markup on the duties) when we order direct.

This is one thing where the extra layers of distribution here make little to no sense to me. I like my LBS. I'll go there today. But they don't have a great selection of tubular tires and, although they'd order something for me, it would be a minor pain for them to get me what I want in good time, and they wouldn't make much money even if they charged me terrible prices. Warranty? A flat on day three is my problem, as it should be. Installation and after-sale service? I don't think so. Service and technical support from a US distributor? Nope.

[oldpotatoe]

I don't really think that every British vendor of bike stuff with an Internet site is sending a rep to Thailand for a suitcase full of tires. I think that there are different distribution channels and we bypass the US stuff (and some of the duties -- and layers of markup on the duties) when we order direct.

This is one thing where the extra layers of distribution here make little to no sense to me. I like my LBS. I'll go there today. But they don't have a great selection of tubular tires and, although they'd order something for me, it would be a minor pain for them to get me what I want in good time, and they wouldn't make much money even if they charged me terrible prices. Warranty? A flat on day three is my problem, as it should be. Installation and after-sale service? I don't think so. Service and technical support from a US distributor? Nope.

Conti tires aren't made in Thailand. The GP4000s are made in Germany.

I think it would be great if manufacturers went direct. BUT these online UK places aren't cheap solely because they don't have the same distribution 'system; that the US does.They participate in the gray and black market and I will tell you, their ability to sell stuff at wholesale prices will not last forever.

It's going to go like this...enough LBS and more 'standard' resellers worldwide aren't going to buy say, Conti tires. Conti will have to make a decision, take the reduced sales and rely on these few MO places or adopt pricing guidelines for all resellers of Conti...we'll see. Mostly European brands right now(no surprise). The prices on shimano, for instance , is about what I sell it for.

5750 crank-Ribble on sale about $200..me $219. PBK on sale is the same as I sell it everyday.

Lots of US based MO places buy direct from the manufacturer BTW, for Campagnolo, for instance. The prices they charge are higher because lots of the UK places are not buying thru normal channels, even for European stores. I think it's a mistake to think these UK places is the norm and somehow the US ought to emulate these models. And the LBS(which is the same as the UK LBS, BTW) is some sort of anamoly.

[djg]

Conti tires aren't made in Thailand. The GP4000s are made in Germany.

I think it would be great if manufacturers went direct. BUT these online UK places aren't cheap solely because they don't have the same distribution 'system; that the US does.They participate in the gray and black market and I will tell you, their ability to sell stuff at wholesale prices will not last forever.



Well, right, several Conti models still are made in Germany. Not all. Vittoria, Challenge, and a few others are made in Thailand. I think Schwalbe has moved a lot of their manufacturing to Indonesia. And all sorts of less expensive stuff comes from China. My point was simply that the regular supply of tires from these shops -- really, all the UK shops, some of which have brick & mortar outlets as well -- are not the product of a few catch-as catch-can deals out of a back door. They've had a regular supply of tires for years because the manufacturers themselves put tires into various channels of distribution and outlets that they don't monitor. I've heard US retailers bandy-about phrases like "black market" and "gray market," but I don't believe there's anything black market (sub-rosa, stolen and/or smuggled) about the tires, and the so-called "gray market" just is the collection of products here available outside the established chain of "authorized" distribution.

Some Internet businesses really are fly-by-night jobs but some of these deals have been around for quite some time. Certainly it might turn out that some manufacturers will tighten up distribution to protect more service-oriented shops. I'm not sure how many, however. It's especially hard to see it with tires -- high volume, minimal service and support. But I reckon that the way to see how things play out is to wait and see.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . might order 10 Michelin PR3's at a time. PBK, Ribble, or others of their ilk probably order 5 thousand at a time. Quantity discount from the manufacturer. What's the mystery here? Same reason you find stuff cheaper at Target or Walmart.

BBD

[kgreene10]

PBK kept on having such good deals on Mich PR3s, that I now have more tires than I can possibly use over the next several years. Of course, it now takes a month to get the goods in the U.S. due to Yemeni printer cartridge scare last year.

[akelman]

Of course, it now takes a month to get the goods in the U.S. due to Yemeni printer cartridge scare last year.

I know that many people had trouble around the Christmas rush, a rush made worse by some historically bad weather in the US and the UK, but I still regularly get parcels from Ribble within a week of ordering.

[kgreene10]

I know that many people had trouble around the Christmas rush, a rush made worse by some historically bad weather in the US and the UK, but I still regularly get parcels from Ribble within a week of ordering.

That's great to hear. I waited a month on a Ribble order and am currently over a month on PBK. They eventually do come.

[oldpotatoe]

Well, right, several Conti models still are made in Germany. Not all. Vittoria, Challenge, and a few others are made in Thailand. I think Schwalbe has moved a lot of their manufacturing to Indonesia. And all sorts of less expensive stuff comes from China. My point was simply that the regular supply of tires from these shops -- really, all the UK shops, some of which have brick & mortar outlets as well -- are not the product of a few catch-as catch-can deals out of a back door. They've had a regular supply of tires for years because the manufacturers themselves put tires into various channels of distribution and outlets that they don't monitor. I've heard US retailers bandy-about phrases like "black market" and "gray market," but I don't believe there's anything black market (sub-rosa, stolen and/or smuggled) about the tires, and the so-called "gray market" just is the collection of products here available outside the established chain of "authorized" distribution.

Some Internet businesses really are fly-by-night jobs but some of these deals have been around for quite some time. Certainly it might turn out that some manufacturers will tighten up distribution to protect more service-oriented shops. I'm not sure how many, however. It's especially hard to see it with tires -- high volume, minimal service and support. But I reckon that the way to see how things play out is to wait and see.

The OP was about Conti GP4000s.

I think you are putting too much into 'black' and 'gray' market. It's not like a in the alley deal like you are smuggling plutonium or something. AND a UK web based reseller doesn't have to be 'fly by night' to find other ways to get European product at lower prices and not in 'established' distribution channels whether it be in the US OR Europe.

What they are doing isn't illegal or shady but believe it that there are plenty of direct to the manufacturer trips made with Euros, long green(or whatever color Euros are) changing hands. It's just 'selling/business' to Conti or Campagnolo, or whoever. BUT US distributors are buying a lot less Campagnolo these days because of the UK web based resellers. We'll see which business' Campagnolo wants to support, US and some European distributors or UK based resellers.

[victoryfactory]

. . . might order 10 Michelin PR3's at a time. PBK, Ribble, or others of their ilk probably order 5 thousand at a time. Quantity discount from the manufacturer. What's the mystery here? Same reason you find stuff cheaper at Target or Walmart.

BBD

sorry Dave but I think oldpotato is right. It's the grey
market at work here and it only stops when a
manufacturer stops it.
A ligit dealer can't compete with grey. And we consumers
line up to get these deals even though it is killing the LBS.
We saw the same thing with cameras at the big NY stores
in the 80's and 90's. They would send a guy to Europe with
a suitcase and they would skip taxes and duties etc
then strip the accessories and warranty cards and sell them
"grey"
it ended when Leica, Hasselblad and others put their foot
down and cut off dealers.
Now what exists is a pseudo grey market where dealers
just replace the facory warranty card with a "store"
warranty which gets them a cheaper price.

the Walmart deal is simply as you described, a big buyer
putting big pressure on suppliers to lower prices for huge
orders. That's different from Grey Market which is
manufacturers double dealing.

Either way, I could never figure out why a friggin'
bicycle tire should cost as much as a car tire!

VF

[victoryfactory]

and also...
there are situations where manufacturers have a need
to get rid of last years stuff, colors that didn't sell etc
at closeout prices. they don't always want to give them to the
authorized dealers so they sell them to small on line
closeout operators. You can usually tell these deals by
the limited size or color or supply.

IMO they should be labeled as closeouts to separate them
from the illegitimate grey mkt stuff
A perfect example is sierratradingpost.com

VF

[AngryScientist]

and also...
there are situations where manufacturers have a need
to get rid of last years stuff, colors that didn't sell etc
at closeout prices.


VF

and this is why you can generally catch my bike with a ridiculous non-matching set of tires on it towards the end of the season :eek:

[Scott Shire]

and this is why you can generally catch my bike with a ridiculous non-matching set of tires on it towards the end of the season :eek:

And the beginning of the season...
And the middle...

Even when I'm on the exact right tires for the conditions I'm mismatched (ie my winter combo - Vit Open Pave on the front, Vit Rando Cross on the rear)

Hell, I don't even like the wheels to match unless we're talking about narrow steel tubes for the frame.

[victoryfactory]

and this is why you can generally catch my bike with a ridiculous non-matching set of tires on it towards the end of the season :eek:


Yep, I remember a few years ago when Performance sold a load of
Closeout Vredestein Tri Comp Fortezza (top of the line, nice tires) at 22 bucks each.

I had blue tires for two years!

The closeout was so popular that Performance continued it after the
Tri Comp fortezzas were long gone with the SE version (a much cheaper tire, but still pretty good)

closeouts are cool, grey market is cold.

VF

[TMB]

You can say what you like about grey market but the distributors in North America are pushing people to it.

In Canada there is ONE distributor for almost all the popular tire brands. ONE.

How much competition do you think there is on tire prices?

If I go to my LBS to buy a GP4000 the retail price will be over $90.

You can say what you like about grey market, and black market and try to guilt me into supporting the LBS but at $90 each for a GP4000 or $190 each for a Competition tubular ......

[AngryScientist]

Yep, I remember a few years ago when Performance sold a load of
Closeout Vredestein Tri Comp Fortezza (top of the line, nice tires) at 22 bucks each.

I had blue tires for two years!

The closeout was so popular that Performance continued it after the
Tri Comp fortezzas were long gone with the SE version (a much cheaper tire, but still pretty good)

closeouts are cool, grey market is cold.

VF

ahem:

http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af153/aero_dynamic8/DSC_0695.jpg

[akelman]

I'm a bit confused about how people are using the phrase "gray market" here. My sense of the gray market predates the Internet, a time when unscrupulous merchants imported European or Asian goods into the US to avoid taxes and whatnot and then sold them at a price well below what US retailers could manage. Someone above mentioned cameras, and I think that's a good example, but I also remember watches being available for considerably less money on the gray market.

But here we're talking about buying tires via the Internet directly from authorized retailers in the UK. Is it really accurate to describe that as the gray market? Or, put another way, is it the consumer's responsibility to avoid authorized retailers that are outside the US? If so, why? Is it illegal for me to buy tires directly from Ribble or PBK? Because otherwise, it sounds very much like this is a case where I'm being asked to ignore one of the few obvious benefits of a globalizing market that accrue to me, the consumer. And while I understand that US retailers are getting squeezed, that's really between the retailer and the distributor/manufacturer, isn't it? If US retailers want to enlist the help of consumers, I think they'd better get much more organized than they are now, hadn't they?

To be clear, I'm very happy to be told I'm wrong. I'm someone who spends a great deal of time considering the ethics of my consumption. And if it turns out that someone can articulate an argument suggesting that purchasing from Ribble or PBK is unethical or illegal, I'll be grateful for the education. Finally, I want to be clear that I mean no disrespect to anyone above. I'm genuinely confused about what people mean when they use the phrase "gray market" to describe transactions that strike me as 100% legitimate in a shifting landscape of web-driven consumption.

[victoryfactory]

akelman, you are not wrong.
But I wonder why authorized dealers in other countries
seem to pay so much less for the same products?
There doesn't seem to be an easy explanation....
Price fixing to support certain dealers in Europe?
Master distributers in US controlling prices to
retailers here?
something is fishy
VF

[Point Grey]

You can say what you like about grey market but the distributors in North America are pushing people to it.

In Canada there is ONE distributor for almost all the popular tire brands. ONE.

How much competition do you think there is on tire prices?

If I go to my LBS to buy a GP4000 the retail price will be over $90.

You can say what you like about grey market, and black market and try to guilt me into supporting the LBS but at $90 each for a GP4000 or $190 each for a Competition tubular ......

TMB, not sure what you mean by one distributor, Vittoria is one distributor, Conti another, Michelin different from the first two, Schwalbe has two options, Veloflex separate from the others......

[oldpotatoe]

sorry Dave but I think oldpotato is right. It's the grey
market at work here and it only stops when a
manufacturer stops it.
A ligit dealer can't compete with grey. And we consumers
line up to get these deals even though it is killing the LBS.
We saw the same thing with cameras at the big NY stores
in the 80's and 90's. They would send a guy to Europe with
a suitcase and they would skip taxes and duties etc
then strip the accessories and warranty cards and sell them
"grey"
it ended when Leica, Hasselblad and others put their foot
down and cut off dealers.
Now what exists is a pseudo grey market where dealers
just replace the facory warranty card with a "store"
warranty which gets them a cheaper price.

the Walmart deal is simply as you described, a big buyer
putting big pressure on suppliers to lower prices for huge
orders. That's different from Grey Market which is
manufacturers double dealing.

Either way, I could never figure out why a friggin'
bicycle tire should cost as much as a car tire!

VF


"It's the grey
market at work here and it only stops when a
manufacturer stops it."

THIS is key....I have never faulted people from getting good deals but if anybody has the wherewithall...get some dollars, cash, go to Vicenza and try to buy 10 groups. And then see what the price of each is. They don't care what ya do with them.

[fogrider]

the thing is my lbs won't stock tubulars and pbk will sell me pair of conti sprinter for 80 bucks. what am I to do? I can't even get that price on ebay!

[1centaur]

Think about the term "gray market." That connotes something between a black market (clearly illegal) and a "white" market that is the everyday market for most people. In the old days, gray market cars were bought in Europe and imported, but might not have the right smog equipment and maybe they should not/would not get through customs, so is it really worth the risk for a few $k Mr. US customer? Closer to home, those Colnago frames from Maestro, do you get the Trialtir (in those days) warranty, and do you really want something painted by the Belgian distributor rather than the German factory, Mr. US customer? At least, that was the spin.

In other words, "gray" was used to create a feeling of uncertainty about what US customers were buying so some portion of them who wanted more certainty and did not want to work to create that certainty would pay the US distribution chain the full price.

Tires from PBK really don't fit that definition. There is no question they are the real deal, specced to the US level, and almost nobody really cares about warranties on tires. When US buyers buy them, they are taking advantage of a transparent global market; distributors rely on opaqueness for much of their margin. The tire manufacturers know PBK sells lots of tires to the US and they work that into their business model. The US distributors know that too (maybe they even charge more to make up for the lost sales, racking up margin on the buyers who must have tires RIGHT NOW or don't use the Web). If one wants to give LBSs charity, give them charity. Or do the same for distributors. But the global system for bicycle tires is what it is; there's nothing gray about this market.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm a bit confused about how people are using the phrase "gray market" here. My sense of the gray market predates the Internet, a time when unscrupulous merchants imported European or Asian goods into the US to avoid taxes and whatnot and then sold them at a price well below what US retailers could manage. Someone above mentioned cameras, and I think that's a good example, but I also remember watches being available for considerably less money on the gray market.

But here we're talking about buying tires via the Internet directly from authorized retailers in the UK. Is it really accurate to describe that as the gray market? Or, put another way, is it the consumer's responsibility to avoid authorized retailers that are outside the US? If so, why? Is it illegal for me to buy tires directly from Ribble or PBK? Because otherwise, it sounds very much like this is a case where I'm being asked to ignore one of the few obvious benefits of a globalizing market that accrue to me, the consumer. And while I understand that US retailers are getting squeezed, that's really between the retailer and the distributor/manufacturer, isn't it? If US retailers want to enlist the help of consumers, I think they'd better get much more organized than they are now, hadn't they?

To be clear, I'm very happy to be told I'm wrong. I'm someone who spends a great deal of time considering the ethics of my consumption. And if it turns out that someone can articulate an argument suggesting that purchasing from Ribble or PBK is unethical or illegal, I'll be grateful for the education. Finally, I want to be clear that I mean no disrespect to anyone above. I'm genuinely confused about what people mean when they use the phrase "gray market" to describe transactions that strike me as 100% legitimate in a shifting landscape of web-driven consumption.


NOT unethical or illegal and has been stated, if the manufacturer wishes to stop it, they are the only ones who will.

It's not about web-driven consumption, it's about resellers buying product directly from manufacturers, bypassing more traditional paths of distribution. I think some manufacturers are just happy to be sellin' it. This has been going on for decades, it is NOT a poduct of the interweb. I used to get Vittoria tires from a distributor who got it 'outside' of the normal Vittoria tire ditribution channels..way before web based reselling.

BUT when you see a GP4000s clearly priced way below wholesale then something has been 'done' to allow this. PBK is still making money.

As for Maestro, they go to Colnago directly and buy lotsa frames, get a big discount because they deal in cash, and then resell them. Colnago sold the frame, that's all they care about.

'Charity' to a bike shop, that's a hoot. I don't struggle at all, I sell a lot of tires, most priced right around what biketiresdirect dells them for. I sell things(like Moots and Waterford) that you cannot get on the interweb.

When somebody needs a tire and they see them at my shop for $65, they buy it instead of doing the 'go to PBK, order lots, wait..what some have waited a month? for them..then post on the forum about the great deal they got.

BUT if somebody comes in with a box of stuff and a new DeRosa(gonna build that today-all from the UK), I don't get sweated up, I do the good job, take his $.

[leooooo]

We saw the same thing with cameras at the big NY stores
in the 80's and 90's.

Don't know how they do it, but BandH still carries grey market cameras/lenses in addition to US market ones

[slowandsteady]

ahem:

http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af153/aero_dynamic8/DSC_0695.jpg

Just swap out your brakes, bar end plugs and saddle and you've got a fantastic new ride that matches, looks awesome and all financed by the cheap tires you get to buy...save the old stuff and next year when the red ones go on sale you can swap it all over again and have a new bike :D :D :D

Oh yeah - nice ride!

[picstloup]

Anyone know the difference between the 4000s and the 4000?...

[rnhood]

Graphics and the fact that the 4000 is available in colors and different widths. Only black has the black chili compound though. I use the 4000 in 25mm (black) and they are really good - imho.

[oldpotatoe]

Anyone know the difference between the 4000s and the 4000?...

'Black chili'...is the difference in 4000'S'

[SEABREEZE]

Don't know how they do it, but BandH still carries grey market cameras/lenses in addition to US market ones

If there coming from out of the country, there still suject to customs and duty.

I guess it still comes in cheaper than buying through local distributors

As VF suggested cheaper cost to dealers outside the US...

[jemoryl]

'Black chili'...is the difference in 4000'S'

Actually the regular 4000 tires in black are also 'Black Chili', but not the colored ones. The graphics are different on the 4000s but I think a black 4000 is basically the same tire.

[keevon]

Actually the regular 4000 tires in black are also 'Black Chili', but not the colored ones. The graphics are different on the 4000s but I think a black 4000 is basically the same tire.

This is correct.

[picstloup]

Actually the regular 4000 tires in black are also 'Black Chili', but not the colored ones. The graphics are different on the 4000s but I think a black 4000 is basically the same tire.

the conti site had this info, so a couple days ago i ordered a pair of 4000 black in the 25mm version...

I guess i'll go with standard butyl tubes, can't seem to find latex tubes bigger than 23...i've read schwalbe makes some good light tubes in an 18-25 size...

[AngryScientist]

the conti site had this info, so a couple days ago i ordered a pair of 4000 black in the 25mm version...

I guess i'll go with standard butyl tubes, can't seem to find latex tubes bigger than 23...i've read schwalbe makes some good light tubes in an 18-25 size...

any 23c tube will work with a 25c tire.

[picstloup]

any 23c tube will work with a 25c tire.

you're probably right, but i'm a little skeptical...a few years ago I walked into a store and wanted latex tubes for my 23mm tires, they didn't have any...a salesman said, try these 20mm ones, they'll be fine...so i did, and all of them had one kind of failure or another...at the seam, just a cut in the middle of the tube...and nothing that penetrated the tires...maybe it was just a bad batch, but since then I've never tried that again...

i did think that might work because the 22-23mm tubes from michelin always seems a bit big, just a skootch when i first put them in...and if i wanted to reuse them, like after switching from winter to summer tires, they always seemed much too big, like they stretched inside the tires...

so, I'm not sure if i want to experiment again...

[TMB]

Any tube meant for a 23c tire will work with a 25c tire.

[ultraman6970]

That's what ONE tire costs at PerformanceBike. :confused:


Who said that Performance sells cheap? they are very expensive and pretty much they have only useless stuff i would not buy at their prices.

[victoryfactory]

Don't know how they do it, but BandH still carries grey market cameras/lenses in addition to US market ones


True, especially on Canon and Nikon. I suspect that this is tolerated by those
distributers/manufacturers who allow B&H to buy huge quantities at a super
low price if they don't have to honor the warranty later. You may notice that the
price differences between gray and USA are less than they used to be and that
some brands don't show any gray pricing. Also some of the more desirable items
have less of a "discount" which makes me suspect that the manufacturers are
controlling some of their items while allowing others to be discounted.

Real gray market is stuffing suitcases and avoiding duties and taxes added to
stripping out warranty cards. I don't think even B&H does that anymore because
it is illegal as well as unethical. The "new" gray is legal, I presume or they would
not be still offering it.

As for tire sellers, I am sure there is a range out there from honest dealers to crooks with every variation in between.

If there is any skullduggery in tire pricing, it is tolerated by the manufacturers
and could be stopped by them.
If they do that, however, they will then be criticized for controlling prices,
Like some clothing manufacturers, etc.
All Manufacturers need to have ways of selling off overstocks and generating
more sales periodically while maintaining the good will of their authorized
dealers. If your inventory is too high, you need to do this kind of thing and
there are always dealers who specialize in this. I'm not sure if it really can
be changed as the manufacturer needs to keep these two types of dealers
away from each other and pretend that the closeout guys don't exist.
Volume sales is certainly one way they explain it to dealers but there is always
some dumping going on too.

In general bike parts there is always a lot of "OEM" stuff out there in non retail
packaging for less money too.

It's just the way commerce works. The people that get upset are the lower
volume LBS guys who can't compete with on line specialists because they
are on the wrong side if the equation.
But is that really a good argument? Should we shun the discounter?
Are there enough customers out there willing to support the LBS pricing
in exchange for higher personal service?
There are plenty of car parts on line for home mechanics now too.
I recently bought a filter for my car for 25. and installed it in 5 minutes
A job tht the dealer charges 90. for. Am I guilty of not supporting my dealer?
Is anyone guilty here?
I'm sympathetic to small dealers, but I'm not sure anymore.

VF

[rice rocket]

Who said that Performance sells cheap? they are very expensive and pretty much they have only useless stuff i would not buy at their prices.
I used them as an example because they're a large chain and have the buying power to negotiate their own contracts with manufacturers. Most your LBSs won't discount tires/tubes, b/c (a) that's where they make their money, and (b) they're buying from a wholesaler, not direct.