OT: Japan -- This is Scary

[soul survivor]

Radioactive Releases in Japan Could Last Months, Experts Say
By DAVID E. SANGER and MATTHEW L. WALD
WASHINGTON — As the scale of Japan’s nuclear crisis begins to come to light, experts in Japan and the United States say the country is now facing a cascade of accumulating problems that suggest that radioactive releases of steam from the crippled plants could go on for weeks or even months.

The emergency flooding of two stricken reactors with seawater and the resulting steam releases are a desperate step intended to avoid a much bigger problem: a full meltdown of the nuclear cores in two reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station. On Monday, an explosion blew the roof off the second reactor, not damaging the core, officials said, but presumably leaking more radiation.

So far, Japanese officials have said the melting of the nuclear cores in the two plants is assumed to be “partial,” and the amount of radioactivity measured outside the plants, though twice the level Japan considers safe, has been relatively modest.

But Pentagon officials reported Sunday that helicopters flying 60 miles from the plant picked up small amounts of radioactive particulates — still being analyzed, but presumed to include cesium-137 and iodine-121 — suggesting widening environmental contamination.

In a country where memories of a nuclear horror of a different sort in the last days of World War II weigh heavily on the national psyche and national politics, the impact of continued venting of long-lasting radioactivity from the plants is hard to overstate.

Japanese reactor operators now have little choice but to periodically release radioactive steam as part of an emergency cooling process for the fuel of the stricken reactors that may continue for a year or more even after fission has stopped. The plant’s operator must constantly try to flood the reactors with seawater, then release the resulting radioactive steam into the atmosphere, several experts familiar with the design of the Daiichi facility said.

That suggests that the tens of thousands of people who have been evacuated may not be able to return to their homes for a considerable period, and that shifts in the wind could blow radioactive materials toward Japanese cities rather than out to sea.

Re-establishing normal cooling of the reactors would require restoring electric power — which was cut in the earthquake and tsunami — and now may require plant technicians working in areas that have become highly contaminated with radioactivity.

More steam releases also mean that the plume headed across the Pacific could continue to grow. On Sunday evening, the White House sought to tamp down concerns, saying that modeling done by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission had concluded that “Hawaii, Alaska, the U.S. Territories and the U.S. West Coast are not expected to experience any harmful levels of radioactivity.”

But all weekend, after a series of intense interchanges between Tokyo and Washington and the arrival of the first American nuclear experts in Japan, officials said they were beginning to get a clearer picture of what went wrong over the past three days. And as one senior official put it, “under the best scenarios, this isn’t going to end anytime soon.”

The essential problem is the definition of “off” in a nuclear reactor. When the nuclear chain reaction is stopped and the reactor shuts down, the fuel is still producing about 6 percent as much heat as it did when it was running, caused by continuing radioactivity, the release of subatomic particles and of gamma rays.

Usually when a reactor is first shut down, an electric pump pulls heated water from the vessel to a heat exchanger, and cool water from a river or ocean is brought in to draw off that heat.

But at the Japanese reactors, after losing electric power, that system could not be used. Instead the operators are dumping seawater into the vessel and letting it cool the fuel by boiling. But as it boils, pressure rises too high to pump in more water, so they have to vent the vessel to the atmosphere, and feed in more water, a procedure known as “feed and bleed.”

When the fuel was intact, the steam they were releasing had only modest amounts of radioactive material, in a nontroublesome form. With damaged fuel, that steam is getting dirtier.

Another potential concern is that some Japanese reactors (as well as some in France and Germany) run on a mixed fuel known as mox, or mixed oxide, that includes reclaimed plutonium. It is not clear whether the stricken reactors are among those, but if they are, the steam they release could be more toxic.

Christopher D. Wilson, a reactor operator and later a manager at Exelon’s Oyster Creek plant, near Toms River, N.J., said, “normally you would just re-establish electricity supply, from the on-site diesel generator or a portable one.” Portable generators have been brought into Fukushima, he said.

Fukushima was designed by General Electric, as Oyster Creek was around the same time, and the two plants are similar. The problem, he said, was that the hookup is done through electric switching equipment that is in a basement room flooded by the tsunami, he said. “Even though you have generators on site, you have to get the water out of the basement,” he said.

Another nuclear engineer with long experience in reactors of this type, who now works for a government agency, was emphatic. “To completely stop venting, they’re going to have to put some sort of equipment back in service,” he said. He asked not to be named because his agency had not authorized him to speak.

The central problem arises from a series of failures that began after the tsunami. It easily overcame the sea walls surrounding the Fukushima plant. It swamped the diesel generators, which were placed in a low-lying area, apparently because of misplaced confidence that the sea walls would protect them. At 3:41 p.m. Friday, roughly an hour after the quake and just around the time the region would have been struck by the giant waves, the generators shut down. According to Tokyo Electric Power Company, the plant switched to an emergency cooling system that operates on batteries, but these were soon depleted.

Inside the plant, according to industry executives and American experts who received briefings over the weekend, there was deep concern that spent nuclear fuel that was kept in a “cooling pond” inside one of the plants had been exposed and begun letting off potentially deadly gamma radiation. Then water levels inside the reactor cores began to fall. While estimates vary, several officials and industry experts said Sunday that the top four to nine feet of the nuclear fuel in the core and control rods appear to have been exposed to the air — a condition that that can quickly lead to melting, and ultimately to full meltdown.

At 8 p.m., just as Americans were waking up to news of the earthquake, the government declared an emergency, contradicting its earlier reassurances that there were no major problems. But the chief cabinet secretary, Yukio Edano, stressed that there had been no radiation leak.

But one was coming: Workers inside the reactors saw that levels of coolant water were dropping. They did not know how severely. “The gauges that measure the water level don’t appear to be giving accurate readings,” one American official said.

What the workers knew by Saturday morning was that cooling systems at a nearby power plant, Fukushima Daini, were also starting to fail, for many of the same reasons. And the pressure in the No. 1 reactor at Fukushima Daiichi was rising so fast that engineers knew they would have to relieve it by letting steam escape.

Shortly before 4 p.m., camera crews near the Daiichi plant captured what appears to have been an explosion at the No. 1 reactor — apparently caused by a buildup of hydrogen. It was dramatic television but not especially dangerous — except to the workers injured by the force of the blast.

The explosion was in the outer container, leaving the main reactor vessel unharmed, according to Tokyo Electric’s reports to the International Atomic Energy Agency. (The walls of the outer building blew apart, as they are designed to do, rather than allow a buildup of pressure that could damage the reactor vessel.)

But the dramatic blast was also a warning sign of what could happen inside the reactor vessel if the core was not cooled. The International Atomic Energy Agency said that “as a countermeasure to limit damage to the reactor core,” Tokyo Electric proposed injecting seawater mixed with boron — which can choke off a nuclear reaction — and it began to do that at 10:20 p.m. Saturday.

It was a desperation move: The corrosive seawater will essentially disable the 40-year-old plant; the decision to flood the core amounted to a decision to abandon the facility. But even that operation has not been easy.

To pump in the water, the Japanese have apparently tried used firefighting equipment — hardly the usual procedure. But forcing the seawater inside the containment vessel has been difficult because the pressure in the vessel has become so great.

One American official likened the process to “trying to pour water into an inflated balloon,” and said that on Sunday it was “not clear how much water they are getting in, or whether they are covering the cores.”

The problem was compounded because gauges in the reactor seemed to have been damaged in the earthquake or tsunami, making it impossible to know just how much water is in the core.

And workers at the pumping operation are presumed to be exposed to radiation; several workers, according to Japanese reports, have been treated for radiation poisoning. It is not clear how severe their exposure was.

[soul survivor]

Someone please post a link to the NYT -- don't know how.

[oliver1850]

.

[goonster]

One must also remember that in the case of Three Mile Island, the plant operators did not really know what was going on in the reactor for three days.

If the Japanese reactors really have a total loss of control power (all indications are that this was the case after the tsunami) then their access to live, accurate process data is limited.

The lack of news may not be the result of spin or cover-up, the information we want may not be available to anyone yet.

A very large, widespread release of radioactive material seems highly unlikely, but the emergency measures they are taking (cooling with seawater) probably mean that the reactors will be rendered unusable for the future.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . they know what they're doing. Not much else to do right now.

BBD

[drewski]

. . . they know what they're doing. Not much else to do right now.

BBD


I am not so sure. The situation is unprecedented. I don't think
they ever prepared for a 4 nuclear reactor meltdown scenario before.

Drew

[Nooch]

Drewski, you probably missed the "I Just Hope" in BBD's Subject line...

Really, fingers crossed, prayers sent.

[drewski]

Drewski, you probably missed the "I Just Hope" in BBD's Subject line...

Really, fingers crossed, prayers sent.


ADD moment. Sorry gents for not paying closer attention.

[mpetry]

It seems like they only have 8 hours of diesel fuel on hand to power the reactor cooling systems once the turbines go off line. After that, they can't pump water in.

What I cannot believe is that there's no way to shut the thing down completely. In the old days this was called a "scram" where the fuel rods were completely inside the moderating elements and all the neutrons were absorbed.

Really good NYT interactive if you can get to it:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/12/world/asia/the-explosion-at-the-japanese-reactor.html?ref=asia

Remember 2 of California's nuclear plants are on the coast... near faults.

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA

[AngryScientist]

What I cannot believe is that there's no way to shut the thing down completely. In the old days this was called a "scram" where the fuel rods were completely inside the moderating elements and all the neutrons were absorbed.




it's a lot more complicated than that. "scram" is a classic term from the very first reactor, standing for "safety control rod ax man" - literally a guy standing by to insert the one control rod by cutting a rope with an ax!

all reactors have the capability of being scrammed, with an insertion of all CONTROL rods, these do absorb neutrons, to the point where the reactor is no longer critical (self sustaining chain reaction of nuclear reactions), however, and it is a big however, decay heat is produced long after control rods are inserted, and decay heat MUST be removed somehow.

i work extensively on US nuclear power plant design, i'm just delving into the subtleties of japanese reactor design, and trying to understand how this could be happening over there. yikes.

[goonster]

It seems like they only have 8 hours of diesel fuel on hand to power the reactor cooling systems once the turbines go off line.
Pretty sure the issue is not fuel, but a complete disablement of the generators and UPS systems from the tsunami. There are procedures for emergency cooling with hand and steam-driven valves, and that's what they are doing now.

One of the biggest conclusions from the TMI investigation was to go away from a troubleshooting approach to an accident, i.e. gather information, evaluate, determine root cause, resolve. At TMI that process was beset by missing and incorrect information, which made the problems worse. Ditto Chernobyl: the initial response to unexpected problems caused the catastrophe. Subsequent approaches are more along the lines of "If A happens, do B. Then wait." I'm sure they have very capable people there, but, in process control terms, they are probably blindfolded and handcuffed.

Let's hope the containment vessel holds.

[R2D2]

it's a lot more complicated than that. "scram" is a classic term from the very first reactor, standing for "safety control rod ax man" - literally a guy standing by to insert the one control rod by cutting a rope with an ax!

all reactors have the capability of being scrammed, with an insertion of all CONTROL rods, these do absorb neutrons, to the point where the reactor is no longer critical (self sustaining chain reaction of nuclear reactions), however, and it is a big however, decay heat is produced long after control rods are inserted, and decay heat MUST be removed somehow.

i work extensively on US nuclear power plant design, i'm just delving into the subtleties of japanese reactor design, and trying to understand how this could be happening over there. yikes.

It's a GE design if that helps your understanding.

[R2D2]

Pretty sure the issue is not fuel, but a complete disablement of the generators and UPS systems from the tsunami. There are procedures for emergency cooling with hand and steam-driven valves, and that's what they are doing now.

One of the biggest conclusions from the TMI investigation was to go away from a troubleshooting approach to an accident, i.e. gather information, evaluate, determine root cause, resolve. At TMI that process was beset by missing and incorrect information, which made the problems worse. Ditto Chernobyl: the initial response to unexpected problems caused the catastrophe. Subsequent approaches are more along the lines of "If A happens, do B. Then wait." I'm sure they have very capable people there, but, in process control terms, they are probably blindfolded and handcuffed.

Let's hope the containment vessel holds.

The emergency cooling now is to directly inject seawater and boron. Thus you get steam and hydrogen when it reacts with core. Thus the hydrogen explosions. The containment dome with have to periodiacally vented as it increases in pressure during the process. It could go on for a very long time.
There really is no control system now and like are pissing on a brush fire to put it out. Let's hope it works.

Additionally the switching station for backup diesel power for cooling system
are underground and flooded. Plus after some explosions who knows what's left of any cooling system. The system may be damaged beyond use at this point.

[mpetry]

Were not these reactors designed and built by GE in the 70s ?

I knew about the scram. After the earthquake why did they not fully insert the rods to ensure the thing was safe? Did they not have power to do so ?

I realize these things are hugely complicated. I just wonder if there's procedural error, or a failure mode they'd not taken into account ? Probably a combination of both.

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA

[AngryScientist]

The emergency cooling now is to directly inject seawater and boron. Thus you get steam and hydrogen when it reacts with core. Thus the hydrogen explosions. The containment dome with have to periodiacally vented as it increases in pressure during the process. It could go on for a very long time.
There really is no control system now and like are pissing on a brush fire to put it out. Let's hope it works.

Additionally the switching station for backup diesel power for cooling system
are underground and flooded. Plus after some explosions who knows what's left of any cooling system. The system may be damaged beyond use at this point.


IMO, the Japanese government should be talking with the chief reactor operator of each plant that's lost cooling capability. there is always a way to tie in cooling water SOMEWHERE, the lead engineers at these plants should know the systems so well that they should be able to come up with some solution. i expect this is what's happening now.

[almost]any country in the world will be sure to lend whatever equipment is necessary, and this would be great press for any company who donates whatever is needed, huge high pressure pumps are not something that are usually off the shelf, but surely some other plant has a spare that can be lent and temporarily tied into the system.

there is a solution out there, for sure, someone very close to the plant layout just need to find it and scream until someone listens.

the japanese will fix this, plenty of damage is done, but they'll come through.

[AngryScientist]

Were not these reactors designed and built by GE in the 70s ?

I knew about the scram. After the earthquake why did they not fully insert the rods to ensure the thing was safe? Did they not have power to do so ?

I realize these things are hugely complicated. I just wonder if there's procedural error, or a failure mode they'd not taken into account ? Probably a combination of both.

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA

they didnt have to scram manually, i can all but guarantee that the reactors scrammed themselves on super high seismic activity. generally speaking you dont need power to scram, its a passive thing.

again, scramming does not solve any of the problems they are having at these plants, it just stops the reactor criticality, decay heat is constantly generated, which is what is causing their grief.

[thwart]

The nuclear power industry is looking at a BP/Deepwater Horizon scenario. But the radioactive aspect seems to scare folks much more than massive amounts of oil venting into the ocean.

Can't see many plants being built for several years... and possibly never again in Japan.

One could look at this and the BP debacle and conclude that we need to go in other directions for our energy needs...

[R2D2]

IMO, the Japanese government should be talking with the chief reactor operator of each plant that's lost cooling capability. there is always a way to tie in cooling water SOMEWHERE, the lead engineers at these plants should know the systems so well that they should be able to come up with some solution. i expect this is what's happening now.

[almost]any country in the world will be sure to lend whatever equipment is necessary, and this would be great press for any company who donates whatever is needed, huge high pressure pumps are not something that are usually off the shelf, but surely some other plant has a spare that can be lent and temporarily tied into the system.

there is a solution out there, for sure, someone very close to the plant layout just need to find it and scream until someone listens.

the japanese will fix this, plenty of damage is done, but they'll come through.

No arguments from me. I have many associates involved in the nuclear industry in many aspect.

[benb]

It sounds like on top of all the other safety precautions now reactors are going to have to be designed to be capable of submarine operation even if they're intended to never go to sea... diesel generator + underwater has never really worked very well.

[ultraman6970]

Godzilla will awake soon.

Well, anybody knows how many reactors japan has? Asking because no matter how good the building is, you never know what it will happens in an earthquake. I been in 2 already, and in earthquakes anything could happen, have seen 100 tons generator lift out of. Now the question is if they will continue using reactors, not many options apparently.

[sg8357]

Can't see many plants being built for several years... and possibly never again in Japan.


The Japanese need nukes, 30% of their energy is from them.
There are other reactor designs that don't have the exciting failure modes
that pressurized water reactors have. The other designs will get
a boost from this. The Japanese and the Europeans will build them,
the US won't, these accidents will kill the attempt to bring back nukes in the US.

[benb]

It's sad we have so little will in the US..

A friend of mine from college who works in Nuclear power had sent out a back of the envelope calculation showing the # of people who will die as a result of these reactor accidents is still probably going to be fewer then the # of coal workers who would have died mining enough coal to produce an equivalent amount of power... and of course until this occurred the reactors were producing far less pollution and no greenhouse gasses.

[SEABREEZE]

Some data info extracted from news reports

1) Power generators and batteries in place to power pumps to cool reactors, but all failed and because of age of design, was unable to retrofit to current system standards, which the professionals say, would not be a issue if those plants had the latest tecnologies.

2) A moritorium on future necular power plants. Some say yes, others no.

3) A country prone to the amount of earthquates they experience, should they have even considered Nuclear power...

[BumbleBeeDave]

One could look at this and the BP debacle and conclude that we need to go in other directions for our energy needs...

. . . that pack more energy per ounce into the fuel then we should talk about them. My understanding is that is a major factor in most green power sources. None extract as much energy as efficiently as burning gasoline in cars. It's a big holdup in the development of electric cars--the storage efficiency of batteries is not where it needs to be yet.

It takes an awful lot of very big windmills or solar farms to equal the power output of one nuclear or coal fired plant and wind and solar are unreliable sources. The fuel is free but not a reliably regular supply. How much of the Japanese islands would have to be covered with solar panels or windmills to equal the power output of their nuke plants? For the time being oil, natural gas, and nuclear are the most efficient large scale sources.

What I'm having trouble understanding is why any major components of a nuke plant--like the generators or switching gear--would be put underground in a plant anywhere near the ocean as I'm understanding was done in this plant. I'm also wondering why any of these plants would be built right on the shoreline. It seems putting them even a mile inland would have not presented major hurdles in getting cooling water to them while still offering at least some protection from tsunami damage.

BBD

[thwart]

For the time being oil, natural gas, and nuclear are the most efficient large scale sources. No argument with you there. But the key part of that statement is 'for the time being'. It's amazing how quickly things can move forward when there's big money to be made.

Right now fossil fuels and nuclear are cheap enough (at least in the monetary sense) to discourage truly dramatic changes on other fronts.

IMHO.

[sc53]

What I'm having trouble understanding is why any major components of a nuke plant--like the generators or switching gear--would be put underground in a plant anywhere near the ocean as I'm understanding was done in this plant. I'm also wondering why any of these plants would be built right on the shoreline. It seems putting them even a mile inland would have not presented major hurdles in getting cooling water to them while still offering at least some protection from tsunami damage.

They had a sea wall that they hoped would stop flooding from a tsunami. Sea wall not high enough.

[goonster]

To keep things in perspective:

1. This is the third-biggest earthquake ever recorded with modern equipment
2. Japan is better prepared for earthquakes and tsunami than any other nation
3. On the order of 10,000 human beings were washed away by the tsunami

This is basically a 1000-year event. With respect to the why-didn't-they-think-of-this issue for the nuke plant, it is too early for second-guessing while an acute crisis is still in progress.

[mgd]

It's sad we have so little will in the US..

A friend of mine from college who works in Nuclear power had sent out a back of the envelope calculation showing the # of people who will die as a result of these reactor accidents is still probably going to be fewer then the # of coal workers who would have died mining enough coal to produce an equivalent amount of power... and of course until this occurred the reactors were producing far less pollution and no greenhouse gasses.

that's not true. plenty of greenhouse gas emissions in the long, strange trip from ore to spent fuel.

[mgd]

No argument with you there. But the key part of that statement is 'for the time being'. It's amazing how quickly things can move forward when there's big money to be made.

Right now fossil fuels and nuclear are cheap enough (at least in the monetary sense) to discourage truly dramatic changes on other fronts.

IMHO.

nuke-you-lehr power is not cheap. take away the massive subsidies, loans and costs associated with fuel production and spent fuel disposal--not that we've even begun to address that glowing 10000 lb. gorilla in any realistic and practical way--and the cost per kilowatt hour goes boom.

and yes, all of our energy industries are subsidized to a large extent and in many--some not so obvious--ways, the massive united states military infrastructure, for one, but the big lie of nuclear power being clean and cheap is just that, a lie.

[mgd]

To keep things in perspective:

1. This is the third-biggest earthquake ever recorded with modern equipment
2. Japan is better prepared for earthquakes and tsunami than any other nation
3. On the order of 10,000 human beings were washed away by the tsunami

This is basically a 1000-year event. With respect to the why-didn't-they-think-of-this issue for the nuke plant, it is too early for second-guessing while an acute crisis is still in progress.

none on this scale of course, but many/most of them were not disclosed and/or widely reported, so when this sort of thing happens, it seems like the first problem in a long time/forever, when in fact it is just the latest and worst.

[Climb01742]

This is basically a 1000-year event.

i wonder, with climate change, can we say, with accuracy, what is and isn't 'normal' anymore? last spring here in boston we had two 100-year storms within two weeks. nature has a remarkable habit of finding the flaws and limits of human designs.

[deechee]

Honestly, no offense but seeing as someone asked me, Japan is made up of four islands. We don't really have access to other energy sources. There are 50+ reactors in the country according to this (http://www.nucleartourist.com/world/japan.htm) .

It sounds to me like the water pump issues have been resolved, and they're pumping in sea water but the problem earlier was that the vents weren't working so there's more pressure inside the reactor so the water wasn't able to go inside. Similarly, even though water is going in, they aren't seeing the level rise inside. That's the problem with the #2 reactor right now.

[mgd]

Honestly, no offense but seeing as someone asked me, Japan is made up of four islands. We don't really have access to other energy sources. There are 50+ reactors in the country according to this (http://www.nucleartourist.com/world/japan.htm) .

It sounds to me like the water pump issues have been resolved, and they're pumping in sea water but the problem earlier was that the vents weren't working so there's more pressure inside the reactor so the water wasn't able to go inside. Similarly, even though water is going in, they aren't seeing the level rise inside. That's the problem with the #2 reactor right now.

the cw certainly is that japan _needs_ nuclear power. it seems that cw is promoted mostly by the industry and government: a typical follow-the-money situation. how the energy production in japan or anywhere _should_ be handled is complex question without easy answers. we're seeing one of the wrong answers now.

the fact is, nobody really knows what's going on in those reactors at the moment, but keep in mind, it will end up being orders of magnitude worse than the official reporting.

[Bud_E]

I found this (http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/fukushima-simple-explanation/) blog to be informative. The author, an MIT researcher, says that for the most part the media has over-sensationalized the accidents at the Fukushima plants and most reports contain numerous fallacies. He claims that although the plants may be a loss, the amount of radioactive leakage won't amount to much at all. I hope he knows what he's talking about.

[climbgdh]

it will end up being orders of magnitude worse than the official reporting.

....... and you know this how?

[mgd]

....... and you know this how?

the official story is always a whitewash. the extent of the tom sawyer treatment is usually determined by how many brushes lather the fence.

mainstream news and mainstream history alike are advertising first, truth, reality, facts, whatever second. mythbuilding is paramount. watch what happens live. sheppard smith on fox is actually doing some real reporting on the tee vee right now. won't last though; the official story will reassert itself soon enough. like right now, right on the same channel. good job!

[mgd]

I found this (http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/fukushima-simple-explanation/) blog to be informative. The author, an MIT researcher, says that for the most part the media has over-sensationalized the accidents at the Fukushima plants and most reports contain numerous fallacies. He claims that although the plants may be a loss, the amount of radioactive leakage won't amount to much at all. I hope he knows what he's talking about.

today's tom sawyer. mit is completely independent of the industry, with no financial interest whatsoever, so trust them first! absolutely. no danger. minimal. harmless. mostly harmless. why would you not believe them. they've never lied to you. ever.

[mgd]

I found this (http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/fukushima-simple-explanation/) blog to be informative. The author, an MIT researcher, says that for the most part the media has over-sensationalized the accidents at the Fukushima plants and most reports contain numerous fallacies. He claims that although the plants may be a loss, the amount of radioactive leakage won't amount to much at all. I hope he knows what he's talking about.

that they're evacuating the plant now? i was helping with a bath, but that what it sounded like. that can't be good. hope i mis-heard that.

[Louis]

I think that we now know why this earthquake/tsunami happened. (see below)

It's interesting that everyone, even not-so-smart athletes, thinks that they know everything and are willing to share it via "new media."

From the NYT:

Pondexter Apologizes for Tweet About Japan
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

New York Liberty guard Cappie Pondexter apologized for Twitter postings over the weekend about the earthquake and tsunami in Japan.

Pondexter tweeted on Saturday: "What if God was tired of the way they treated their own people in there own country! Idk guys he makes no mistakes."

She later tweeted: "u just never knw! They did pearl harbor so u can't expect anything less."

Pondexter posted an apology Monday:

"I wanna apologize to anyone I may hurt or offended during this tragic time," the tweet said. "I didn't realize that my words could be interpreted in the manner which they were. People that knw me would tell u 1st hand I'm a very spiritual person and believe that everything, even disasters happen 4 a reason and that God will shouldn't be questioned but this is a very sensitive subject at a very tragic time and I shouldn't even have given a reason for the choice of words I used.

"The least thing I wanted was to hurt or offend anyone so again I truly apologize. If you've lost respect for me that's totally fine but please don't let me or my words lose the respect of u the WNBA and what it stands for.

"I'm very strong woman evn strong enough 2 admit an apologize when I'm wrong. Twitter is a voice and wth tht I wanna apologize again."

The WNBA declined to comment on Pondexter's tweets, but the Liberty released a statement later Monday.

"We have spoken to Cappie and the content of that conversation will remain internal. She made a mistake and quickly apologized for that mistake. We will have no further comment."

[BumbleBeeDave]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=j6K6JcAB9T0

I hope this will play OK. Guy showing us cracks opening and closing in the ground during the quake and water shooting out of them . . .

BBD

[mgd]

I think that we now know why this earthquake/tsunami happened. (see below)

It's interesting that everyone, even not-so-smart athletes, thinks that they know everything and are willing to share it via "new media."

From the NYT:

some of the operators are staying--did they say 50--but the rest are being evacuated. another explosion, too. not good. doesn't sound like they feel are in good control of the situation.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . .from Phil Plait on his Bad Astronomy blog. Puts the whole thing in good context . . .

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2011/03/14/the-japanese-nuclear-reactor-overreaction/#more-29496

BBD

[R2D2]

some of the operators are staying--did they say 50--but the rest are being evacuated. another explosion, too. not good. doesn't sound like they feel are in good control of the situation.

From what I listening to it does not sound good. Actually sounds like it sucks big time. Only those operators pumping seawater are on site.

[Karin Kirk]

i wonder, with climate change, can we say, with accuracy, what is and isn't 'normal' anymore? last spring here in boston we had two 100-year storms within two weeks. nature has a remarkable habit of finding the flaws and limits of human designs.

This event is perfectly normal, yet is also rare.

And you probably didn't mean to imply this, but climate change has nothing to do with tectonic events.

The situation sounds absolutely desperate. I spent the day pulling together articles, videos and references about the event so that faculty can have a quick and reliable place to find current info to teach about these events. I have to say, this made for a thoroughly depressing workday.

[mgd]

. . .from Phil Plait on his Bad Astronomy blog. Puts the whole thing in good context . . .

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2011/03/14/the-japanese-nuclear-reactor-overreaction/#more-29496

BBD

knocking down the straw men of idiotic hysterics instead of dealing with the awful situation they have, which _must_ be worse than is being reported because it always _is_ worse than is reported. sorry about that reality of history. still, everybody knows that nuclear plants do not detonate like bombs, but that cited post seemed like the work of an industrious industry tom sawyer getting some suckers to wash his white fence.

[mgd]

From what I listening to it does not sound good. Actually sounds like it sucks big time. Only those operators pumping seawater are on site.

worst yet. now a huge release of radiation is being reported. REPORTED! hope for usual journalistic incompetence.

not good.

the best, if you have a very dark sense of what's good, thing right now is that nobody really knows what's going on inside the reactors themselves. some of the fuel has probably melted. bad. they probably had or have some exposed fuel. bad. they pump in seawater and then realize that hardly any water is getting in. bad. stuff gonna 'splode. bad. that last best hope is that maybe it's only bad and not wicked bad. at this point, it will be a while until there's even a chance of definite answers.

[mgd]

....... and you know this how?

is about the best entertainment associated with this terrible event. they clearly got a fox news-style memo regarding the scale of the nuclear power public relations disaster. it's quite a dance as the live reports come in, but they're doing their best, especially lester holt and bob bazell. holt probably got himself fired over the weekend with a major eff-up, but bazell is carrying major heavy water for the boys.

[Fixed]

i am really bummed out about this i know and respect the japanese people

[R2D2]

worst yet. now a huge release of radiation is being reported. REPORTED! hope for usual journalistic incompetence.

not good.

the best, if you have a very dark sense of what's good, thing right now is that nobody really knows what's going on inside the reactors themselves. some of the fuel has probably melted. bad. they probably had or have some exposed fuel. bad. they pump in seawater and then realize that hardly any water is getting in. bad. stuff gonna 'splode. bad. that last best hope is that maybe it's only bad and not wicked bad. at this point, it will be a while until there's even a chance of definite answers.

Yes I have been listening to live updates. And I hate to admit things appear to be getting worse and not better.

[akelman]

This event is perfectly normal, yet is also rare.

And you probably didn't mean to imply this, but climate change has nothing to do with tectonic events.

The situation sounds absolutely desperate. I spent the day pulling together articles, videos and references about the event so that faculty can have a quick and reliable place to find current info to teach about these events. I have to say, this made for a thoroughly depressing workday.

What sort of work do you do, Karin? (I hope you won't mind me asking.)

[Karin Kirk]

What sort of work do you do, Karin? (I hope you won't mind me asking.)

I'm a ski instructor/coach, so life is good! :)

But on the days when I'm not on the slopes I am a geologist who specializes in helping college faculty improve their teaching. We run a big workshop series, an enormous suite of websites and we travel to various campuses. "We" refers to a team that spans several universities and colleges, headed up by Carleton College in MN. I also teach online classes, but not very often anymore.

Sometimes geologists get excited by natural disasters, but definitely not in this case. This is simply terrible.

[ahumblecycler]

Humans unquenchable need for power results in great responsibility and great consequences ... and we are witnessing some of it now.

[mgd]

Humans unquenchable need for power results in great responsibility and great consequences ... and we are witnessing some of it now.

now msnbc is reporting that the third explosion _may_ have breached the primary containment. pressure dropping in the reactor vessel. can emergency cooling keep up with this new leak?

[R2D2]

now msnbc is reporting that the third explosion _may_ have breached the primary containment. pressure dropping in the reactor vessel. can emergency cooling keep up with this new leak?

Actually what was reported was the pressure supression chamber may have leaked. Technically it is not the primary containment. Not reassuring and not good. And USA military is sending more pumping equipment. If it indeed melts down let's hope the containment works.
In other words I am hoping for the best case for the worst case of meltdown.

[mgd]

Actually what was reported was the pressure supression chamber may have leaked. Technically it is not the primary containment. Not reassuring and not good. And USA military is sending more pumping equipment. If it indeed melts down let's hope the containment works.
In other words I am hoping for the best case for the worst case of meltdown.

that's the way it was reported in the times. the reporting _may_ be getting their jargon mixed up--it wouldn't be the first time that happened--but since _nobody_ knows what's going on deep inside the reactor vessel, and given the fact that the outer building didn't 'splode like before, it sounds like they're getting ready to cop to something pretty bad.

it's okay, though, bazell says it's okay. that settles that.

[akelman]

I'm a ski instructor/coach, so life is good! :)

But on the days when I'm not on the slopes I am a geologist who specializes in helping college faculty improve their teaching. We run a big workshop series, an enormous suite of websites and we travel to various campuses. "We" refers to a team that spans several universities and colleges, headed up by Carleton College in MN. I also teach online classes, but not very often anymore.

Sometimes geologists get excited by natural disasters, but definitely not in this case. This is simply terrible.

Thanks, Karin. One part of my job is serving as the faculty adviser for my department's outreach arm to local K-12 social studies teachers, so my ears pricked up when you said that you were helping faculty with their teaching. Our group spends a lot of time supporting teachers as they put together units that will meet the state's history standards and also keep their students awake. The latter part of the equation is trickier, as you might guess.

[Dekonick]

It looks to me that the situation is not getting better. :crap:

FWIW, the radiation we are talking about is mostly beta radiation... and fortunately it doesn't have the long half life of the really 'ad stuff.' For anyone concerned about new reactors, the designs take into account failure of pumps. The newer designs I am aware of use active pumping, but also have gravity cooling as a back-up. Like it or not, nuculear power is here to stay. Hopefully we can learn from this and make existing and new reactors safer.

Bad design for a plant given its geographical location. :crap:

Lets hope the containment holds.

[soul survivor]

With due respect, statements like "Like it or not, nuculear power is here to stay" is quite presumptuous. Assuming your conclusion, you aren't forced to address whether the safety/utility balance for such power makes sense -- in comparison to the balance for other types of power. And I've never heard an objective source suggest that nuclear power is the only way to go -- the predicate of your statement. :crap:

[maxdog]

With due respect, statements like "Like it or not, nuculear power is here to stay" is quite presumptuous. Assuming your conclusion, you aren't forced to address whether the safety/utility balance for such power makes sense -- in comparison to the balance for other types of power. And I've never heard an objective source suggest that nuclear power is the only way to go -- the predicate of your statement. :crap:

+1 I'm going to have to second that emotion big dog.

[oliver1850]

.

[soul survivor]

I suggest that you read the latest reports of an impending disaster -- see new thread just posted -- and think again about ever assuming that nuclear power makes sense.

[oliver1850]

.

[AngryScientist]

I'm not assuming that it makes sense, just that it's not going away anytime soon. Those 13 million people in NE Illinois are used to having electricity.


nuclear power is certainly not going to "go away", but for sure there is going to be a huge effort to evaluate the safety measures that are in place for current plants, and i imagine a fairly major overhaul of regulations for new plants.

[Karin Kirk]

Thanks, Karin. One part of my job is serving as the faculty adviser for my department's outreach arm to local K-12 social studies teachers, so my ears pricked up when you said that you were helping faculty with their teaching. Our group spends a lot of time supporting teachers as they put together units that will meet the state's history standards and also keep their students awake. The latter part of the equation is trickier, as you might guess.

Nice Akelman, we are doing similar stuff. We are starting to branch out to the K12 realm as well, which I think will be very fruitful. I think there is a lot of bang for the buck in supporting K12 teachers.

Back to the disaster...
It is strange and scary to watch a disaster unfold in slow motion over these past few days. Only in hindsight will we really figure out exactly what went wrong. I agree that the nuclear power industry will suffer a big setback. I have to agree with the analysis that Japan had its act together and that terrible things can happen despite that. Yes, there are design flaws and mistakes, but that is likely to be true in many cases when unexpected things happen. I'm not against nuclear power, but the public acceptance is definitely going to suffer for now.

[rwsaunders]

The operators that have stayed behind in the plants are performing heroics on an epic scale...somewhat of a suicide mission. I cannot even imagine what is going through their minds at this point.

[1happygirl]

The operators that have stayed behind in the plants are performing heroics on an epic scale...somewhat of a suicide mission. I cannot even imagine what is going through their minds at this point.

I just saw where a 70 y/o has been rescued 5 days after but haven't heard many good stories. I just don't understand. Can someone explain or am I wrong but I don't see many people coming in delivering water and food etc. Mostly, I usually hear/see a lot more stories about searching for survivors etc but not in this case. Are the rescuers not in place yet/still?

[ultraman6970]

I believe the problem is to reach the affected area, besides the radiation "issue", doubt many rescuers are willing to go or allowed to go to some places. The japanese in general are very well prepared for this and probably it could have been worse. Probably rescue teams are moving around but probably many of the affected areas are still 100% submerged, you can't take dogs or anything in there until the water is gone.

In my country last year a whole city went under water due to a tsunami and a 8 something earthquake. I have been in 2 earthquakes already and no matter how well prepared you are, always cr@p happens that gets you off the planing big time. People is more concern now about the radiation... and the rise of Godzilla

[slowgoing]

I just saw where a 70 y/o has been rescued 5 days after but haven't heard many good stories. I just don't understand. Can someone explain or am I wrong but I don't see many people coming in delivering water and food etc. Mostly, I usually hear/see a lot more stories about searching for survivors etc but not in this case. Are the rescuers not in place yet/still?

I heard a report yesterday that historically there are not many survivors where a tsunami hits because death occurs quickly. So maybe search and rescue efforts are in earthquake areas not hit by the tsunami - not sure the tv/radio reports are keyed in on those areas.

[deechee]

There are some rescue teams on the ground, but I think its more difficult because most modes of public transportation (trains) and the roads are still closed or in limited service. Some teams arrived by boat from the north. Even in the Tokyo area, the trains are not all running at full service. Power needs to be conserved and the lines for gasoline are hours long.

Here's another happy story (http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201103130112.html) about some kids being born during the quake.