OT-running barefoot

[flydhest]

So, I know there are many people here who run in addition to ride. I am curious about real experience and evidence.

This link has some interesting research from an ostensibly reputable source. That said, the fine print will note that Vibram (maker of the five-fingers "barefoot" running shoe) funded some of the work.
http://www.barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/

A buddy who is a convert went part way with these:
http://nikerunning.nike.com/nikeos/p/nikeplus/en_US/products/free_landing

Thoughts?

[fil]

i didnt read the link.

i raced cross country barefoot in college. i am fairly suseptible to injuries when running and probably had fewer problems when running barefoot.

i have recently been using some of merrells 'barefoot' shoes and like them. from what i can tell they are a lot like the five fingers but with normal toebox

[William]

From last year. :)

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=68328



William

[flydhest]

errr, thanks. <<heavy sigh>> I guess I do know about the search feature.

[AngryScientist]

marathon runner here:

my take on it is that it is a good foot strengthening tool if you have good foot biomechanics in the first place. if you have inefficient running form, good shoes can and do correct bad foot strikes that can and will lead to injury if not corrected.

it could be a valuable training activity, but i highly suggest easing into it, dont go full time on minimalistic/no shoes right away.

[flydhest]

I am a former NCAA Div I runner, so I get biomechanics and easing into things. What was curious for me was the research into the issue. Most of what you hear is based on received wisdom, but not always received from scientific inquiry. That was part of my intro asking for experience and evidence. The rates at which runners in conventional shoes have injuries is amazing. Lots of podiatry training is paid for by shoe companies or orthotics producers (of course, as I noted, some of the barefoot research was funded by the makers of the Five-fingers shoes). I personally suspect that a lot of high-tech shoes can enable poor biomechanics to continue instead of correcting them, but I don't have any proof.

One analogy that works for me is that if I ever train with weights (which I used to) I use free weights/dumbbells. If you pay attention to your body, you can actually correct things this way and get better, general, usable strength. Of course, if you just jump in and have no idea what you are doing . . . well, bad things can happen.

[rugbysecondrow]

I have been thinking about going minimalist but not barefoot so I appreciate the links. I have gone minimalist for my workouts by using the Addidas Samba and I like them quite a bit. I also work out with Kettle Bells barefoot and I can feel my feet and ankles getting stronger. I jump rope a lot during the winter time and do that barefoot as well, so I might have to give this a shot. With that, I have noticed a difference when using my heavily molded running shoes and that they actually hurt my joints more, I think my style has change and my feet have grown accustomed to the change in footwear. I also had my gait analyzed and have altered how I run and it has made a difference as well. The Nike Frees are what I am looking at, but I also only run up to 4 miles now, likley increasing to 5 in the summer so not heavy mileage.

Thanks for prompting me to look into this some more.

[fiamme red]

Off-topic, but does anyone here ride a bike barefoot? I heard that it really strengthens your foot muscles. :rolleyes:

[Climb01742]

i'm having good results running in the fivefingers bikila.

http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/products/Five-Fingers-Bikila-Mens.htm

they are the third model of fivefingers i've tried. their sole is more articulated than other models, which helps, IMO.

[gregblow]

i tried it due to injuries. not too successful. back to running in my normal shoes. but now that i read this, i might put the five fingers on and go for a short jog.

[benb]

I ended up getting stuck into "stability shoes" and orthotics in high school from running injuries (mostly soccer)...

Everything has been downhill from there.. I have major trouble with shin splits and in recent attempts at getting my running form back I also had some Plantar Fascitis.. basically the shoes + orthotics make it very hard for me to do anything but slam my heel into the ground. Very easy to feel now that I tried taking them off...

I tried a couple very brief interval run/walk things last summer barefoot and it was promising.. I could immediately tell the shin splits and plantar fascitis would never be an issue without the heel on the shoe, and I don't think the original issue that got me in the orthotics (some tendonitis) would be an issue either..

But next I try it I will try it with some minimalist shoes.. I like the idea of trying it barefoot as the feel really forces you to not hit your heel on the ground and your foot will tell you when you've had enough, but our ancestors might have had a heck of a lot less of an issue with HPV... I don't know if it was from barefoot running or from martial arts (which I also stopped) but I ended up with a plantar wart which kept me from even thinking about running.. 6 months later and many doctor visits and finally a surgery it is still not 100% gone. (Surgery was successful but it is still not fully healed 1 month out)

I still wear my orthotics for cycling & weight lifting and such but I'm not wearing them around the house anymore... I think the barefoot folks are onto something.

[dnades]

My understanding is that unless you grew up running barefoot, you shouldn't run barefoot period. Running is bad enough for your joints, why elect to punish your feet as well?

[fil]

id recommend trying on the merrells to anyone considering the five fingers for comparison sake.

[Nathanrtaylor]

Barefoot running with proper form and training isn't bad for your joints.

[benb]

All it takes is one try to realize the "joints argument" is not all it's cracked up to be..

If you slam your feet down like you do in shoes.. your feet will tell you to stop right away.

You will learn how to run without pounding your feet very, very, very quickly if you give it even the slightest try. Then your calf muscles will get so sore you'd think you had been in a bootcast your entire life.

[JeremyS]

Here's my story about switching to VFFs: I am large, and previously, injury prone runner. I couldn't go 4 months without an injury. I'm rolling up on a year injury free running barefoot.

I had to ease into it over 3 months, but I can now consistently go run 4 to 5 miles comfortably in them. I've never been one for higher mileage so I haven't tried.

My wife is also injury prone, mainly shin splints. She switched, and until she was about 4 months pregnant, was running 5 to 10 miles comfortably in the VFFs.

I also use them in the gym for the nice flat stance without being actually barefoot on the gross gym floor.

[miguel]

i live in a city where it is normal to find glass on the street and sidewalks.

[flydhest]

My understanding is that unless you grew up running barefoot, you shouldn't run barefoot period. Running is bad enough for your joints, why elect to punish your feet as well?

Can you explain where this understanding comes from. That was one of my points in citing research. Indeed, the research suggested that running needn't be bad on the joints. I have not tried the "shoes" in question, so I don't know what they do to your feet, but many of those who have worn them say they are comfortable, so why do you say they "punish" your feet?

i live in a city where it is normal to find glass on the street and sidewalks.
This fact is why the Five Fingers and the Merrell "Barefoot" are being discussed--they protect your feet from that sort of thing but still allow you to run in a way that is closer to barefoot.

[Fixed]

barefootin
cheers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUOXgL4rvYk

[BryanE]

No.
Or you could do it and in 3 months tell us what injury you have.
Bry

[rugbysecondrow]

Running is not bad for your joints, bad running form is bad for your joints. No different than a crappy bike fit that can cause issues.

[jh_on_the_cape]

I still run, but I used to run alot more training for a marathon. I lost flexibility and was just plain stiff.
My wife is into pilates and dragged me to two months, twice a week of that. Hated it at first, but now I like it.
We did pilates in socks. some people did it barefoot.

Now I do pilates on my own at the gym. I tried in my running shoes and it was just weird. Doing the movements in socks helps balance and does strengthen the ankle and foot for sure. So I think doing some types of workouts barefoot can be beneficial.

That said, I just cannot see running more than 5 miles barefoot. I want my body to last a long time. I will keep shock absorbers under my feet. I also try to vary what I do, not just one activity all the time.

Our ancestors might not have had shoes, but life expectancy was like 30. That argument is weak.

I think it comes down to an individuals training past, present and future. Your physiology. Get the advice of a doctor or pro trainer, not this forum.

[flydhest]

Our ancestors might not have had shoes, but life expectancy was like 30. That argument is weak.



Hence the posting of the research. The argument, on its own, does not hold up, as you note, but the observation brings up specific questions, many of which can be tested. The researchers cited do some of that and look at people who run barefoot in the modern world and those that run with modern running shoes. The appeal to "our ancestors" is merely the motivating statement, not the argument itself.

Lots of people who run in modern shoes have injuries. Causality is hard to determine there, but theory and evidence can be brought to bear to understand it.

[christian]

if you have inefficient running form, good shoes can and do correct bad foot strikes that can and will lead to injury if not correctedIs there actually a single peer-reviewed study anywhere that indicates that specific running shoes (cushion, stability, motion-control) prevent injuries related to foot strike? I have looked and looked, and the only studies I find seem to indicate that rate of injury is entirely unrelated to the type of footwear...

I'm interested to try some barefoot running, but I'm still happily logging 25-30 miles per week in my GT-2160s, so no pressing need. I think if you focus on quick turnover and mid-foot strike, most shoes, or no shoes, will be ok.

[bigreen505]

Minimalist and barefoot running have enabled me to start running again.

[kinofaucet]

I didn't do much research on the topic of barefoot/minimalistic running before I tried it and I got injured...

I bought some Nike Frees (which some argue are just posers in the barefoot/minimalistic world) and ran typically 4-6 miles daily in them.

It was going perfectly so I decided to run a marathon in them without once trying them on a "long run".

Got arch pain around mile 8 and I was hobbling by mile 13.

Not a smart move...

[crownjewelwl]

I tried VFFs for running. I liked them a lot at first, but after a while I started getting some soreness in my arches. My conclusion was that I am too heavy and needed at least some cushioning (I think I'm a lot bigger than the average Tarahumara).

I still swear by VFFs for working out (kettlebells, dead lifts, etc). But after running in VFFS now I strike the midfoot instead of my heel in regular shoes. Works great.

Just ordered a pair of Newton shoes and I'll see how they go...

[fiamme red]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/magazine/running-christopher-mcdougall.html?ref=general&src=me&pagewanted=all

Some interesting comments on this article here:

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/02/the-one-best-way-to-run/

[verticaldoug]

[QUOTE=flydhest]...(of course, as I noted, some of the barefoot research was funded by the makers of the Five-fingers shoes). I personally suspect that a lot of high-tech shoes can enable poor biomechanics to continue instead of correcting them, ...
QUOTE]

I agree the poor biomechanics is the root cause.

I look at the top Kenyan Marathoners, even with great biomechanics, the first thing they do is go and get shoes. (I realize they are sponsored, but it probably goes beyond that.)

Back in college in the 80's, our coach had us run barefoot once a week or so on the football field to improve our efficiency. I think I have always been a fore/mid foot striker.

Instead of running barefoot, you can go out and run some technical single track. You can quicken your turnover, shorten your stride and think about foot placement which will come foreward instead of pounding your heels. With all the different foot placement, I think it helps strengthen the ankles and lower leg. Besides, it is a heck of a lot more fun than pounding pavement.

[rugbysecondrow]

I purchased these shoes after this thread in the Spring. Angry Scientist I think has tried them as well. I really like them, comfy, light and no injury issues at all. For reference, I likely ran 12 miles a week, so nothing serious, but I did use them exclusively. I also used them for triathlons I competed in and my run times were better than in previous years. Training accounts for a better time as well as a decrease in injuries. I began jumping rope quite a bit more which improved length strength, sped up my foot rate as well as my nimble/reaction time. In addition, I changed my gait which has resulted in my feet staying under me more, mid-foot striking and faster rate. You can do this with any shoe, but these are more conducive IMO. Other shoes seem made for heel strike and feel ackward otherwise.

I am still a big fan of them. Some other considerations. They are smaller and take up less space for travelers. I used to carry running shoes and work out shoes, now just one pair that is smaller than both of the prior. No socks. Comfy, airy and a pleasure to wear. No or little cusioning, so nothing to really warp or break down like with other running shoes.

I am looking to buy a size larger so I can wear socks with them in the winter time, so I would certainly give it a shot.

Ease into it, work up to the distance. Stretch, cross train and be patient. This is a perfect time of year to give it a shot.

[brockd15]

I've never really been injury prone, but when I first heard about barefoot running it made logical sense to me so I bought a pair VFFs and never had any trouble with the transition. Once they became a fad I quickly lost interest, but still wanted the benefit.

In my mind, if barefoot running was so beneficial, and the percent of my total time on my feet spent running is pretty small, then it made more sense to use minimalist footwear for everyday use, not just for running. The problem was that most minimalist shoes look so crazy...super bright colors, weird shapes, etc. I wanted something with zero drop (most minimalist shoes still have some drop...the NB Minimus, for example, has 4mm I believe), and the only thing I found that looked decent is the Altra Instinct.

The Altra looks relatively normal, has zero drop, and is cushioned. I eased into them, but now I use one pair of shoes for daily wear and running and get the benefits (IMO) of minimalist footwear all the time.

And I have no connection to Altra, I just like the shoes. :)

Edit: Altras may be best for people who are neutral anyway, since you don't get the same foot/ground feedback with less cushioned shoes.

[flydhest]

I have been using my New Balance Minimus, including trail running, and think they are great.

"Born to Run" is a great read for anyone, but it is particularly interesting on this topic, as noted above. There was another story on NPR a few months ago about other research into running shoes causing far more injuries than they prevent.

[rugbysecondrow]

I have been using my New Balance Minimus, including trail running, and think they are great.

"Born to Run" is a great read for anyone, but it is particularly interesting on this topic, as noted above. There was another story on NPR a few months ago about other research into running shoes causing far more injuries than they prevent.

Reading this book now, good so far. Don't ruin the ending! :)

Also, here is a source for some custom minimalist footwear.

http://www.russellmoccasin.com/new_products/minimalist_footwear.html

[rugbysecondrow]

Check this out. http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/w.s.+george

It is the 100 up referred to in the article. After watching this, it makes more sense why the jump rope has helped me with my running. I should incorporate this more.

Thanks!

Paul

[Hank Scorpio]

I bought a pair of the Merrells that felt great in the store but after wearing them for a while I realized they don't work for my feet. If you have Morton's the shape of the toe box may not work.

[Nelson99]

I know the OP was looking for science, and even though I am a scientist by training and trade, this post will provide none.

Instead I offer the anecdotes from my family: My wife bought a pair and loved them. My son started running cross-country despite having the flattest feet and scarily over pronated ankles (they look like they are broken!).

When the wife was buying VFF's for the son to see if it would help with the foot and knee pain he got from running, she asked if I wanted a pair. Being a Clyde, a clumsy runner, and only interested in running on trails when I have to run at all, I said no thanks. She bought them anyway and I find I wear them all the time! (Women are smarter...)

They have improved my back pain by reducing the lordosis in my pelvis, they are great for working out in the gym, and I enjoy running in them on all but the rockiest trails. As for my son, his foot and knee pain are both significantly reduced and he is running a lot faster.

At this point I have seen enough anecdotes about the positive effects of these "shoes" to recommend that anyone try them. They clearly work for lots of people.

[Climb01742]

i've been running (and walking around the house) in VFF for awhile now. for me, the key benefit is: you can't cheat or be sloppy. your feet, ankles and legs are far more aware of how they move and without the crutch of shoes, they become stronger and move thru a greater ROM.

[christian]

Thanks in small part to this thread, I stuck my 2160s on the shelf and bought a pair of Saucony Kinvaras in August. I ran my first marathon in them last weekend and eeked out a 3:59. But the real story is that my feet feel great.

[keevon]

I bought a pair of the Merrells that felt great in the store but after wearing them for a while I realized they don't work for my feet. If you have Morton's the shape of the toe box may not work.

Yep. It took me a while to find a shoe that worked with Morton's. I finally settled on the Inov-8 F-Lite 195.

Why do most brands make the toe box taper so quickly?!

[xeladragon]

+1 Innov-8s. Extremely versatile which is why they're so popular amongst CrossFitters.

[beungood]

I think you can take advice from the Forum here. And if you want science look up Dr. Irene Davis now of Spaulding rehab running clinic in Mass and Prof Dave Lieberman from Harvard. Both have extensive studies on barefoot running and have a multitude of comparisons between Shod and unshod runners.

Dr. David has done a Masters paper and Doctoral thesis on the subject. I had the luck to be able to attend a PT seminar (I'm not a PT) on prevention and treatment of running injuries and the second half was on Barefoot running. It was a turning point for me and totally convinced me as to the merit of getting rid of the heavily padded running shoes. There were media presentations and slow motion video of runners and measurements of the force they were landing thier strides and also the differances in the way the body deals with the shock shod and unshod. It validated everything I read on it til that point.

Anecdotally most of my injuries and aches and pains from running all but dissappeared. Ankles got strong ,no hip pain and my half way spilts were MINUTES less than shod. The only downside and one I didnt pay attention to were to go slow,moderate increases . They reccomend no more than a 10% increase in speed or distance. I felt so good when I finally decided I didnt need shoes ,on a good day I added in a way too long extra loop and ran it extra fast...and had calf pain. But the very place I took the seminar accepted my insurance so I have 6 visits for them to get me back on track( they have a program to help make the jump to running bare..)

I like the Vibram Bikalas for winter and wet weather, but am intrested in the newer minimal footware..

[flydhest]

Did a run yesterday and today with the wife in my minimus shoes. Funny. In some ways, it's like riding a fixie. Running is just more fun and I don't care if I am going more slowly than I would otherwise.

[rugbysecondrow]

So, I have been running with my Merrell True gloves since the spring and I have been working out either barefoot or in my flat addidias Sambas for about a year. My running technique changed quite a bit and there was a strong learning curve for me. It was constantly fighting muscle memory and feeling conflicted and uncomfortable while running. This November I felt I had a break through, I felt gazelle like and like I was gliding. No more struggling, no more fighting...my body was listening and I have shaved about 3 minutes off of my best 5K time with no training for speed, just better form.

With all that said, I my feet have gotten a bit wider since I have been using these shoes and they have also gotten so used to a more flat/minimalist shoe that anything other than that seems to cause discomfort in my joints, specifically my ankles and knees. It seems I can't have it both ways. Anybody else experience this? My problem while trying to find new dress shoes was trying to find some compatible with my foot evolution/development. Is this in my head or is it real?

I am looking at having some minimalist dress shoes made (Russell Moccasin makes custom shoes in minimalist design), but are there any other options?

Thanks.