OT: Oxymoron photo of the day

[rwsaunders]

$60K buys you 20/24 mpg...so much for a hybrid being associated with fuel economy.

[AngryScientist]

it is unfortunate that for most car manufacturers, the most fuel efficient cars are the least expensive. even if you wanted to pay more for your luxury car to get better fuel economy, generally that's not possible.

[Ozz]

it is unfortunate that for most car manufacturers, the most fuel efficient cars are the least expensive. even if you wanted to pay more for your luxury car to get better fuel economy, generally that's not possible.
Saw an ad for a Lexus CT last night.....42 mpg for about $30K

It is a small hatchback, but looks nicely appointed. Probably not all that sporty though.

http://www.lexus.com/models/CTh/

[AngryScientist]

Saw an ad for a Lexus CT last night.....42 mpg for about $30K

It is a small hatchback, but looks nicely appointed. Probably not all that sporty though.

http://www.lexus.com/models/CTh/


i saw that, looks good actually. i think we're making some changes for the better, thats for sure.

[bozman]

Saw an ad for a Lexus CT last night.....42 mpg for about $30K

It is a small hatchback, but looks nicely appointed. Probably not all that sporty though.

http://www.lexus.com/models/CTh/

+2
I dig it.

[Steve in SLO]

Looks like they borrowed some Mazdaspeed styling.

[benb]

Yah.. wow.. that Lexus CT actually looks like it makes some sense.. of course I'm not sure it would make that much more sense then just getting a Prius since the Prius has most of the luxury gadgets and is otherwise pretty well appointed.

[oldpotatoe]

$60K buys you 20/24 mpg...so much for a hybrid being associated with fuel economy.

The photo says 'first supercharged hybrid'..isn't it?

$5 per gallon won't even make people worry about fuel economy, scarce fuel/energy will.

[buck-50]

Yah.. wow.. that Lexus CT actually looks like it makes some sense.. of course I'm not sure it would make that much more sense then just getting a Prius since the Prius has most of the luxury gadgets and is otherwise pretty well appointed.
If you like driving even a little, then the CT makes sense.

Prius's are designed to be no fun to drive. I've never takes such an instant dislike to something as I did my rental prius...

The lexus gives you pretty similar mileage plus the opportunity to actually enjoy your drive. Reviews I've seen say not bad- not lexus-y enough- but not bad...

[Kirk007]

just eyeballed the VW yesterday and agree completely. The Dealer says it goes like a scalded cat, built on a Porsche Cayenne frame but I fail to see the point of this rig. The sticker price was $55K. What's that old phrase "if you have to ask how much you can't afford it." Me thinks that folks putting out this much for an SUV have many priorities higher than economizing on gas or being green.

[goonster]

$60K buys you 20/24 mpg...so much for a hybrid being associated with fuel economy.
Meh. I'll take your oxymoron and raise you an Escalade hybrid, rated 21/22 and starting at $73k. At least the Touareg is AWD (Torsen).

[RPS]

$60K buys you 20/24 mpg...so much for a hybrid being associated with fuel economy.
I think it’s even worse when “fuel economy” comes at an outrageously “uneconomical” capital cost. Just last night I was reading about the Smart electric, and its $599/month lease which is limited to less than 1,000 miles per month on average. You could lease a 2-seat Miata and have enough cash left to buy 100 gallons of gas every month. And you could even drive above 62 MPH. :crap:

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/06/24/2011-smart-fortwo-electric-drive-first-drive/

That is, if it didn't cost an arm and a leg. Starting this summer, Smart will lease 250 ForTwo Electric Drive models here in the United States as part of a 1,500-unit world-wide launch. Around 80 percent of those will go to corporations and municipalities, leaving the rest to be divvied out on a first-come, first-serve basis. Both corporate and private customers can look forward to paying $599 a month for a 48-month lease. Throw in a $2,500 down payment, and you're looking at a total of $31,000 just for the privilege of being an early adopter. And mileage is capped at 10,000 miles per year.

[mschol17]

Looks like they borrowed some Mazdaspeed styling.

You're right- it looks exactly like a Mazda 3!

[dave thompson]

Is there anything such as a 'sensible' car anymore?

[false_Aest]

I really really really wish I had the option of easily removing the seats in my car.

The weight loss of loosing 3 folding seats has to be 150-200lbs (more if they're motorized).


keyword = threaddrift.

[benb]

If you like driving even a little, then the CT makes sense.

Prius's are designed to be no fun to drive. I've never takes such an instant dislike to something as I did my rental prius...

The lexus gives you pretty similar mileage plus the opportunity to actually enjoy your drive. Reviews I've seen say not bad- not lexus-y enough- but not bad...

I was kind of basing that on the idea that Lexus are not fun to drive either.. if the CT has the same acceleration/powertrain as the Prius and it's got a Lexus nameplate I was assuming it would have a pillow ride that felt like it was going to flip/roll over upon any driver inputs along with overboosted steering...

[torquer]

Me thinks that folks putting out this much for an SUV have many priorities higher than economizing on gas or being green.
Maybe their priority is appearing to be green.
While the (false) economies of higher capital costs versus fuel savings have been beaten to death (even hard to justify for diesels unless you do really big annual miles), it should be noted that improving the mileage of guzzlers like this SUV, big 4x4 pick-ups, etc. does have a greater impact, in terms of total reduction in fuel usage, than the gains from, say, going from a conventional Civic to a hybrid model.
I recently spoke with someone from my utility company who was trying to get folks to sign up for 100% renewable electricity. He quoted a rate, which he said would result in an extra $10 per month on my bill, or "the cost of a couple cups of coffee." (He obviously mistook me for a Starbucks regular.) I do pay a small premium for 10% renewable energy, but I'd rather turn down the thermostat (OK, that'll save natural gas, so I'll turn it up come summer) as my bigger contribution to the environment. But I guess there are plenty of folks who will pay the premium for hybrid SUVs and fully renewable electricity.

[Kirk007]

Is there anything such as a 'sensible' car anymore?

How about this? :)

[Germany_chris]

does hybrid have to be associated with fuel economy? There are a couple of electric car companies out there touting the real virtues of electric; maximum torque a 0 rpm. Electric motors are quite possibly the best means to power a car if you want performance. When the battery weight comes down you'll see seriously fast 0-60 times. I'n my world it amazing to me to see people equate hybrid with "Green" or "Efficiency" batteries are neither and diesels are better at both. Hybrid means massive torque potential and quickness where Americans need it. Here hybrid is still quirky and diesel is king.

[buck-50]

I was kind of basing that on the idea that Lexus are not fun to drive either.. if the CT has the same acceleration/powertrain as the Prius and it's got a Lexus nameplate I was assuming it would have a pillow ride that felt like it was going to flip/roll over upon any driver inputs along with overboosted steering...
Lukewarm review from TTAC...

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/11/review-lexus-ct200h-take-two/

But apparently it feels quite firm, planted and likes to rev...

[buck-50]

does hybrid have to be associated with fuel economy? There are a couple of electric car companies out there touting the real virtues of electric; maximum torque a 0 rpm. Electric motors are quite possibly the best means to power a car if you want performance. When the battery weight comes down you'll see seriously fast 0-60 times. I'n my world it amazing to me to see people equate hybrid with "Green" or "Efficiency" batteries are neither and diesels are better at both. Hybrid means massive torque potential and quickness where Americans need it. Here hybrid is still quirky and diesel is king.
Not a whole lot of diesels available here. Our emissions standards for diesel are different than the ones in europe. Supposedly it'd tack about 2k on to the price to convert those awesom little eurodiesels to US standards.

And then there's the sad fact that a lot of us remember the last gas crisis back in the 70s and the craptacular, clattery, smelly and underpowered diesel garbage that Detroit sold our parents and grandparents...

[torquer]

I knew Ferdinand Porsche started out with electric cars, but according to Wikipedia, he did the first gas-electric hybrid, too.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Lohner_Porsche.jpg/220px-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Porsche

[cmg]

Not a whole lot of diesels available here. Our emissions standards for diesel are different than the ones in europe. Supposedly it'd tack about 2k on to the price to convert those awesom little eurodiesels to US standards.

And then there's the sad fact that a lot of us remember the last gas crisis back in the 70s and the craptacular, clattery, smelly and underpowered diesel garbage that Detroit sold our parents and grandparents...


Had a college instructor who bought a GM diesel, might of been an Oldsmobile, missed about a third of the classes, had the engine dismantled about 4 times during the semester. He had a 150 mile round trip. doubt the next generation of american diesel will be better. if you want reliable and fuel ecomony at a low cost buy an old Honda. you can buy 20 of them for the cost of the Lexus hybrid.

[Germany_chris]

I am American and VW and Mercedes export larger versions of "euro diesels." The problem I think with the typical american is the gas crisis diesels they were great and long lived but obnoxious. Hybrids don't really work here for two reasons, urban types drive smarts and the like (parking) and on the autobahn a hybrid would be using it's gas engine anyway. In the states parking is easier than here with exceptions and with a speed limit of 65 and electric could and might possibly still function. Really Hybrid is a bridge technology and in my opinion the lesser of the mix. I think biodiesel is probably the best of the lot followed by ethanol lets take some corn out of our diet (high fructose corn syrup) and make alcohol. Please though in your responses don't mention the energy spent argument, I really don't care (not green) the idea is wean off gasoline onto another source.

[dave thompson]

How about this? :)
Fun, for sure. Not sensible.

[Kirk007]

Fun, for sure. Not sensible.

This 4 door has potential - not too much smaller than a Jetta sportwagen; not to far off the tdi's gas mileage, but a heck of a lot more fun and available in all wheel drive for those Spokane winters. My regular mini may be moving on ... of course my idea of what is sensible (eg. multiple road bikes) is probably not normal :)

[cmg]

Fun, for sure. Not sensible.

then the mini makes sense. google mini cooper problems and let the fun begin.

[drewski]

http://www.nbm.org/assets/images/intelligent-cities/ic_city_graph_large.jpg


Interesting graphic.

Seems to argue that the more money we sink into,
i don't care about everyone else as long as I have my car,
approach to transportation is a real weight on society.

[Kirk007]

as opposed to googling {insert any car} problems? I tried it with about 6 - full pages of complaints every time. And of course there is something to be said for driving today's cars while under normal or extended warranty for minimization of at least the financial headaches of car maintenance (and a good dealership doesn't hurt either).

[buck-50]

http://www.nbm.org/assets/images/intelligent-cities/ic_city_graph_large.jpg


Interesting graphic.

Seems to argue that the more money we sink into,
i don't care about everyone else as long as I have my car,
approach to transportation is a real weight on society.
Not to get political, but it's really a shame that up here we're cutting public transit funding and turning away rail dollars...

[drewski]

as opposed to googling {insert any car} problems? I tried it with about 6 - full pages of complaints every time. And of course there is something to be said for driving today's cars while under normal or extended warranty for minimization of at least the financial headaches of car maintenance (and a good dealership doesn't hurt either).


http://www.vectrix.com/tools/eco-nomics#/10/1/1.944

Is a new company that creates a plug in motor cycle,
i can't vouch for the accuracy of the formula
but based on the initial calculation you could purchase
their motorcyle and save about $60k over 5 years vs a SUV.

[buck-50]

This 4 door has potential - not too much smaller than a Jetta sportwagen; not to far off the tdi's gas mileage, but a heck of a lot more fun and available in all wheel drive for those Spokane winters. My regular mini may be moving on ... of course my idea of what is sensible (eg. multiple road bikes) is probably not normal :)
The four door only has 4 seats. 2 buckets in front, 2 buckets in back and a goofy rail that divides them... When top gear describes something as stupidly impractical, you know it's a bad idea...

[RPS]

I am American and VW and Mercedes export larger versions of "euro diesels." The problem I think with the typical american is the gas crisis diesels they were great and long lived but obnoxious. Hybrids don't really work here for two reasons, urban types drive smarts and the like (parking) and on the autobahn a hybrid would be using it's gas engine anyway. In the states parking is easier than here with exceptions and with a speed limit of 65 and electric could and might possibly still function. Really Hybrid is a bridge technology and in my opinion the lesser of the mix. I think biodiesel is probably the best of the lot followed by ethanol lets take some corn out of our diet (high fructose corn syrup) and make alcohol. Please though in your responses don't mention the energy spent argument, I really don't care (not green) the idea is wean off gasoline onto another source.
What do you mean by "energy spent argument" and why do you not want to consider/discuss it? :confused:

[Kirk007]

The four door only has 4 seats. 2 buckets in front, 2 buckets in back and a goofy rail that divides them... When top gear describes something as stupidly impractical, you know it's a bad idea...

only in North America, and the bucket is coming this summer. Agree re the front/back buckets.

Who and what is top gear and why should I care what they think? just asking....

[mschol17]

What do you mean by "energy spent argument" and why do you not want to consider/discuss it? :confused:

Ethanol costs more energy to make than it provides. You're burning fossil fuels to make the fertilizer (a lot), to farm the corn, to turn the corn into fuel, and to deliver the fuel. And then ethanol is a crappy energy source, only containing 70% of the energy per gallon compared to gasoline.

Other than that, and the fact that it drives up corn prices leading to starvation throughout the world... it's not that bad. :crap:

Hopefully 3rd gen biofuels will save us.

[Frankwurst]

Ah Hell. I'm sticking with my 1988 Mercedes Benz 450SEL. Still gets over 20 MTG on the highway. Room for a cooler and 2 people in the back seat (this is important) and is like riding around in my recliner watching the world go by and has a great tune shooter. So if someones bitchin' about my oversized gas guzzeler I can turn up the tunes. Not to mention the fact it'll run 140+ MPH. Not that I ever go that fast but if Mr. Squirrel thinks he's outta range.... :beer:

[Brian Smith]

I think that adding the technology called "hybrid" simply happens to be an economical way for manufacturers to more easily meet CAFE standards and simultaneously increase marketability of the vehicles. Simply because "hybrid" technology was recently used in a effort, in a few cases, to create a fuel economy performer of a vehicle doesn't mean that the technology has always to be used for that same purpose by every manufacturer.
Use of that technology to help improve the relative pigs of vehicles which most challenge a manufacturer's resources is simply evidence of good decisions on the part of manufacturers and relatively poorer regulatory practices.

[RPS]

Ethanol costs more energy to make than it provides.
...snipped....
I get he meant that. I’m just wondering under which scenario(s) Germany-chris sees ethanol helping us “wean off gasoline” or other oil-based fuels.

[RPS]

IMO most buyers associate hybrids with fuel economy and set their expectations accordingly.

As I recall, the Accord hybrid -- which was designed and marketed to improve performance more so than fuel economy -- was a total failure for Honda.

Now at the opposite extreme GM’s 2012 Buick Regal and LaCrosse will introduce the “eAssist” as standard in place of the previous mild hybrid options. I read they no longer want to call it a hybrid because people automatically expect high fuel economy; and when very mild hybrids can’t deliver the high MPGs most buyers expect of hybrids they see it as a failure. Marketing now thinks changing the name will decrease fuel economy expectations which may make it more viable and thus successful.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I knew Ferdinand Porsche started out with electric cars, but according to Wikipedia, he did the first gas-electric hybrid, too.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Lohner_Porsche.jpg/220px-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Porsche

. . . THIS Porsche. The mileage sucks but everybody's going to get out of your way . . .

BBD

[daylate$short]

Well I'm surprised that VW would make that claim. BMW has had a (twin) turbo hybrid out for over a year. Probably the most ill conceived hybrid vehicle ever, or at least tied with the Lexux 650H. Kind of leaves you scratching your head why someone would make something like this. BMW X6 (http://www.hybridcars.com/vehicle/bmw-x6-hybrid.html)

[Germany_chris]

Costs more energy to produce a gallon of alcohol than the alcohol yeilds.

That is the arguement against.

What do you mean by "energy spent argument" and why do you not want to consider/discuss it? :confused:

[goonster]

Well I'm surprised that VW would make that claim.
Not surprised: People who know the difference between a supercharger (mechanically driven positive displacement pump) and a turbocharger (exhaust-driven gas turbine).

[ergott]

Funny aside.

Top Gear put the Toyota Prius on their test track for a few laps. They hammered around like they would any other car. All the while, a BMW M3 was following the pace of the Prius behind it.

Guess which car was getting better mileage? It was something like a 10% difference.

Driving habits would do so much for conservation. I see so many people floor it in their vehicle of choice from stop sign to stop sign (and everywhere else). Driving with some flow makes all the difference too.

I consider my '03 Civic as sensible as it gets. Economical and paid off. :cool:

[RPS]

Costs more energy to produce a gallon of alcohol than the alcohol yeilds.

That is the arguement against.
Exactly, so what’s the argument for?

Unless you were simply using sarcasm I don’t follow the logic. Why spend more oil to create less just so we can say that our car’s tank is full of corn-made alcohol?

By the way, I support alternate fuels too but think ultimately we need solutions that are affordable otherwise they are useless. We can also save lots of fuel with cars like VW’s third generation 1-liter XL1 with twin-cylinder diesel and hybrid assist which is getting closer to production, but making a car out of carbon fiber to save weight is economically excessive at this time for the average buyer. Slightly lower mileage at a significantly reduced initial cost would make a lot more sense IMO. Extending fuel economy well beyond 100 MPG doesn’t save much on fuel anyway.

Sadly VW appears to have given up on the more efficient tandem seating which was my favorite part of the previous concepts. OTOH it’s a sign they are serious about brining such a car – or similar -- to production.

[oldpotatoe]

Is there anything such as a 'sensible' bicycle anymore?


The market is awash with sub 15 pound bikes, dripping in carbon everything and $15,000 isn't out of line at all.

Still gotta pedal the thing tho.

Put 'thing' in place of car, bicycle, tennis racket, golf club, airplane, ski.

I have a Ford Ranger and wife has a Beetle...they work great for us. This VW will sell, will be 'perfect' for somebody.

[daylate$short]

Not surprised: People who know the difference between a supercharger (mechanically driven positive displacement pump) and a turbocharger (exhaust-driven gas turbine).
My bad. I know the difference - just didn't read it right. Duh!

[gearguywb]

Slightly OT, but the whole "green" thing has gotten out of hand (IMHO). was watching HGTV the other day where a couple with 1 daughter were looking for a new house in Washington state. They were very "energy conscious" and "green oriented" so they ended up buying a new 3900 square ft house.

Go figure.

[RPS]

My bad. I know the difference - just didn't read it right. Duh!
In my opinion terminology differences are not as black and white as they might first appear. Over a long period of time language can change common meanings but originals also remain.

Many people even today – including some engineers – will argue that turbocharging is just one specific type of supercharging. Originally supercharging simply meant charging the cylinder with air at higher pressure than the surrounding ambient in order to get more power out of an engine. Over the years we’ve differentiated terms to mean more or less what goonster stated above, but I can see someone using them differently and still being correct.

The only exception I’d take to goonster’s definition is that a supercharger doesn’t have to be a “positive displacement” pump. Other types of compressors are not uncommon. And at a personal level I prefer to call the compressor a compressor (since its main function is to elevate a gas to a much higher pressure) and not the commonly used “blower” or “pump”, although it doesn’t really matter as long as we all know what we are talking about.

This is all about VW’s use of language to serve a marketing need to differentiate from others. Whether technically correct or not is irrelevant in my opinion.

[PoppaWheelie]

I consider my '03 Civic as sensible as it gets. Economical and paid off. :cool:

And living on the end of the life-cycle band where you reap "green" dividends. Nothing worse than trading-in an efficient work car for a new one with a battery in it....especially if the old one is just going right back out on the road. Forget the number, but a very large part of the CO2 production associated with a given car has been put in the atsmosphere before it even leaves the factory floor.

[cmg]

And living on the end of the life-cycle band where you reap "green" dividends. Nothing worse than trading-in an efficient work car for a new one with a battery in it....especially if the old one is just going right back out on the road. Forget the number, but a very large part of the CO2 production associated with a given car has been put in the atsmosphere before it even leaves the factory floor.

Don't trade it in, you don't get anything for it other than ink on paper. drive it till the motor fails, replace and repeat. that's green.

[rwsaunders]

Don't trade it in, you don't get anything for other than ink on paper. drive it till the motor fails, replace and repeat. that's green.

Screw the dealers as you suggest, as you are correct that your trade-in is an emotional profit center for them.

[daylate$short]

In my opinion terminology differences are not as black and white as they might first appear. Over a long period of time language can change common meanings but originals also remain.

Many people even today – including some engineers – will argue that turbocharging is just one specific type of supercharging. Originally supercharging simply meant charging the cylinder with air at higher pressure than the surrounding ambient in order to get more power out of an engine. Over the years we’ve differentiated terms to mean more or less what goonster stated above, but I can see someone using them differently and still being correct.

The only exception I’d take to goonster’s definition is that a supercharger doesn’t have to be a “positive displacement” pump. Other types of compressors are not uncommon. And at a personal level I prefer to call the compressor a compressor (since its main function is to elevate a gas to a much higher pressure) and not the commonly used “blower” or “pump”, although it doesn’t really matter as long as we all know what we are talking about.

This is all about VW’s use of language to serve a marketing need to differentiate from others. Whether technically correct or not is irrelevant in my opinion.

You are absolutely correct. Very gray area between technically correct and common useage that has evolved over time. Personally I think that VW is technically incorrect, but recognize that current useage considers "supercharged" to be constrained to a mechanically driven device. But hey, when you have a hybrid that gets around 20 mpg, you gotta hang your hat on something. :)


Supercharger
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A supercharger is an air compressor used for forced induction of an internal combustion engine.
The greater mass flow-rate provides more oxygen to support combustion than would be available in a naturally-aspirated engine, which allows more fuel to be burned and more work to be done per cycle, increasing the power output of the engine.
Power for the unit can come mechanically by a belt, gear, shaft, or chain connected to the engine's crankshaft.
When power comes from an exhaust gas turbine a supercharger is known as a turbosupercharger[1] – typically referred to simply as a turbocharger or just turbo. Common usage restricts the term supercharger to mechanically driven units.

Turbocharger
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A turbocharger, or turbo, is a gas compressor used for forced induction of an internal combustion engine. A form of supercharger, the turbocharger increases the pressure of air entering the engine to create more power

[ergott]

And living on the end of the life-cycle band

I hope not! I need another 5-10 years out of this thing.

No matter how many times I try to convince myself I need a new car, it never makes sense. I may get bored enough to spring for a new sound system or something, but I'm not even in the car long enough to justify that. I still have only 61k on the odo.

:beer:

[estuche]

Wow that is definitely low mileage...

[Louis]

Wow that is definitely low mileage...

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for your quality contributions.

[fogrider]

hybrid is like mixing materials on a frame, sure you can do it well, but it's going to cost you and there might not be as much advantage as going other options. is hybrid a bridge to electric (http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx)?

[oldpotatoe]

Wow that is definitely low mileage...

But ya know, it is helpful to check the date...2 year old post.

[ergott]

Not quite 78k miles now.

[soulspinner]

Funny aside.

Top Gear put the Toyota Prius on their test track for a few laps. They hammered around like they would any other car. All the while, a BMW M3 was following the pace of the Prius behind it.

Guess which car was getting better mileage? It was something like a 10% difference.

Driving habits would do so much for conservation. I see so many people floor it in their vehicle of choice from stop sign to stop sign (and everywhere else). Driving with some flow makes all the difference too.

I consider my '03 Civic as sensible as it gets. Economical and paid off. :cool:

BAM:hello:

[soulspinner]

But ya know, it is helpful to check the date...2 year old post.

I didnt check either:bike:

[Gummee]

Ah Hell. I'm sticking with my 1988 Mercedes Benz 450SEL. Still gets over 20 MTG on the highway. Room for a cooler and 2 people in the back seat (this is important) and is like riding around in my recliner watching the world go by and has a great tune shooter. So if someones bitchin' about my oversized gas guzzeler I can turn up the tunes. Not to mention the fact it'll run 140+ MPH. Not that I ever go that fast but if Mr. Squirrel thinks he's outta range.... :beer:

I'm driving a '95 S320. Fits a bike upright in the back seat with just the front wheel off. Gets decent gas mileage: mid-20s at freeway speeds. Its paid for. Comfy seats for all-day road trips. Its paid for. Its going to take some doing for me to replace it. Nothing I've seen that I want to drive does the same things. I *could* drive a Fit, but once you've driven an S-Class, its tough driving anything else. Did I mention the Bank Vault* is paid for?

M

*I call it the Bank Vault because its so quiet. Its so quiet partly because its got dual pane side windows.