yo, douglas (is there a sanskrit word for "yo"?)

[Climb01742]

dbrk-pal,

in your most recent explanation of french fit you wrote:

Originally Posted by dbrk
The bike has to place you differently on it if you are looking for "higher" bars. Now higher bars is not the same as a shopping cart! On a French fit you are _longer_ over the top tube, what Climb calls rotating the hips forward (which is really pushing the hip pointers _back_). Think of how a Brooks saddle nearly forces you to go back and sit in the hammock...now lengthen the back, drop the shoulder blades flat on the back, and get rid of the modern racers curl...voila...the fit is different too. I could show you pictures, if anyone cares.

well, a number of us would "care". very much, actually. when you have a free moment (do those exist anymore?) if you could post the pix, it would be swell. and helpful and educational, i bet too. thanks!!!

ps: have a nice holiday weekend. is the weather gonna dry out there?

yer pal, james.

[dbrk]

It's going to be awhile before I have the time and the means (i.e., the person with the camera who knows what we are doing...) to take some photos. But perhaps my wife the yogini will demonstrate on HelloKittyKirk (I can take the pictures) since it's the position the back and hips that are most pronounced as far as the body is concerned (and she looks...waaaay better than me) and like many yogis she can move and swivel in ways that give you a very clear picture of what is happening inside with bone and muscle. Anyway, I will get to this, promise.

A handful of mildly interesting things, perhaps. Mike and Clare Barry are likely coming down to Bristol (from Toronto) for the weekend, perhaps with a handful of NoClick Club-ers---young and older who like to ride friction and even old bikes. The learning curve takes quantum turns upward when Mike is around. There is no one alive who knows more about derailleurs of yore and just about every bike ever made, but they also have a special insight into pro peleton because Michael is, of course, in the thick of it. I will get my Mariposa randonneur back from its recent trip to the Cirque du Cyclisme and my blue Singer which got a new custom to match Singer-like stem (longer! jerk approved-13cm!)

The Cycles Tournesol Leger that was recently posted here arrived at my door yesterday from Hampsten WorldHeadquarters-Seattle. I've not opened the box because I regard that the privilege of Jeff Felice whose bike this actually is...the kid at Christmas principle must trump my own curiosities to exam the frame...Jeff should visit soon.

Okay, this might be more interesting to Forum-ites. I have more curiosity in modern stuff than real interest, meaning I like to try things but am unwilling to spend real money (too expensive in cost/benefit terms, not much applicable to my humble ridiing style, etc.)---and to that end I've had a chance to compare a few recent carbon/mixed carbon bikes. To wit, this week I was given a brand new Cannondale Six13 for a prolonged test ride. The bike is my size even for a racer: I comfortably sit on a 60cm with plenty of seatpost showing and a 12cm stem, which I'd call my most aggressive riding position that is still stretched out. I prefer to be long in the cockpit, even on a race bike, with my shoulder blades flat on my back, considerably less bend in the back than I'm seeing (at this moment on RAI2) with pros; long and flat is is possible on a 60cm, plenty of weight forward to create point of contact balance.

The comparison with the Six13 is perhaps a bit unfair:it seems best to compare to my custom Hampsten Z1 Parlee-built and perhaps the Odonata (which is designed much the same as the Hampsten though it was not done for me). The Z1 bike has less saddle/bar drop than the Cdale, both of which use only 1.5cm of spacers. I could have set up the Cdale taller without exaggerating the front end but I would prefer not to stack spacers, I suppose for vanity reasons: I can bend over just fine and the bike looks better as a race bike without them, but it does make for a position that I find less inviting, attractive, and not necessarily faster or better than the taller, flatter, more level position on the Hampsten. The Cdale has its bars some 94cm from the floor using Tufo 23c and a Ritchey 84d WCS stem. The Z1 touches 96cm using the same set up (same number of spacers) because of the taller headtube and the 1.5d of slope (which I can't see for the life of me). I've ridden the Six13 twice now: once for three hard hours in the Bristol hills (here in the Finger Lakes) and once for an hour and a half as hard as I can ride the rollers with some flats. So a few observations...

I am pleasantly surprised with the road manners and the feel of the road under the Six13. I confess not to have ridden recent Cdale AL, my last experience on one being CAAD5, I think, and that was disappointing for being all the usual aluminum things: too harsh and stiff, too much like the teeth-rattling Principia (THE stiffest bike I have ever ridden by a long shot) and stiffer than the pure race bred Fondriest (too stiff for me!) I also like a relatively "soft" ride but one that will not let me flex the bb/frt der under stress or with a fork that scares the crap out of me on descents or my weak version of sprints. In short, I have little patience for a bike that is too stiff, one that transfers a lot of road, or one that flexes up front like, for example, an old, old Time Equipe fork (circa '94) would.

The Six13 is not as quiet or as muting as the Parlee. There is definitely more road vibration and noise beneath you but nothing like an aluminum bike and considerably less than the very stiff titanium I have ridden. After three plus hours I felt like the bike didn't tire me out or demand much of my attention when I had less to give. It's only when I'm really exhausted that I think a bike shows its colors. Is it sketchy holding the line or descending? Will it forgive stupidities? I liked the way the Cdle turned and didn't feel like the certainly unnecessarily too high bb made the bike float when it should ride steady. Hands off the bars: steady under all conditions. Descending as fast as I can go (hills are big here...): confidence instilling, not one complaint, the fork is really quite nice, perhaps every bit the match for the WoundUp Alpha Sub3. I like forks you can forget about when things go down or fast or turn hard: the Slice is excellent. But I was certainly a bit more worn by the Cdale than the Z1, which mutes and dampens considerably more. I think they both transfer energy with amazing efficiency. I'd give the "momentum" edge to the Cdale: it seems to keep going when you sit up. The short ride made the Cdale even more likeable. In sum, I think three hours in the hills would make me reach for the Z1 before the Six13. They weigh about the same: about 17lbs with my prefered set up. The power transfer on the Six13 is superb and makes the shorter rides tons of fun.

'm not shy to praise the Six13, it really is a wonderful bike for what it does and how many non-steel production frames are made in America? Honestly, I doubt I would spend anything close to the retail price of this bike/frame (like I said, it was a test rider, so it wasn't my expense...) but I feel the same way about even more highly touted custom frames. (I think I am incapable of an opinion about a bike without considering its cost/perceived-benefit.)

I used the same wheelset for comparison: DT rims/DT240 hubs/Tufo 23c clincher tubulars: light and invisible but not as stiff as my perception of Ksyriums (my least favorite pre-built of the ones I've owned). The rest of the bike is DA10, Ritchey bars and stem, Thomson post, Regal saddle, Ritchey WCS compact crank and Shimano nothing special bb.

Conclusion: Since I want a carbon bike just for those days when it seems like fun, I think of the Z1 as the keeper. The Cdale is nice but like too much stuff around here, it would likely not last more than a few years before it sat too many times to keep. BUT, the Cdale is a really nice bike and I hope to hang onto to it for awhile and gather more impressionistic, unscientific, typically useless review comments that sound like the dumb things said in magazines and elsewhere...


dbrk

[jbay]

[...] The Cdale has its bars some 94cm from the floor using Tufo 23c and a Ritchey 84d WCS stem. The Z1 touches 96cm using the same set up (same number of spacers) because of the taller headtube and the 1.5d of slope (which I can't see for the life of me).

[...] I liked the way the Cdle turned and didn't feel like the certainly unnecessarily too high bb made the bike float when it should ride steady. [...]



Douglas,

I contend that the height of the 'bars from the floor means nothing without factoring in the bottom bracket height (which you mention is high on the C'dale). The higher b/b means that the 'bars are effectively lower still on the C'dale with respect to the saddle height.

For good or for bad, I can spot a non-level top tube from a mile away and can't stand it. I had a bike once which was supposed to have a level top tube, but didn't, and it drove me crazy. Full-on sloping top tubes are another thing entirely, of course, but a just-slightly non-level top tube just doesn't cut it for me.

Aesthetic consideraterations aside, the ride report was very enjoyable.

-- John