OT: The cops want my badge! Any legal advice?

[EPOJoe]

Hey folks,

Recently wound up in an odd situation and I wanted to run this by some of you legal experts. I recently posted an antique, very early 1900's, Oakland police badge on ebay, and after the reserve had been met (over $1200.00) I was contacted by someone at the Oakland Police Dept. claiming that they "own" every badge that's ever been issued, and they want it back, despite the fact that I purchased the badge from the grandson of the officer who once wore it. Seems unlikely to me that the Oakland PD would be able to lay claim to a badge that was obviously given to this officer upon retirement, with the only other option being that he "stole" his own badge, with all this happening close to a hundred years ago. I'm considering contacting an attorney, but I'm clueless as to what kind of attorney I'd even be looking for for this kind of thing. Any help/ideas would be greatly appreciated. Here's a link to the auction, which I've since closed pending a resolution of this mess.



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140516794738&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.com%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR4 0%26_trksid%3Dm570%26_nkw%3D140516794738%26_fvi%3D 1&_rdc=1





Thanks very much in advance,

Joe P. Giannone

[BobbyJones]

Please keep up to date with this, I'm curious how it all turns out.

I'm thinking someone may want a souvenir for themsleves.

[dekindy]

I just did a search and found on Answers.com that police officers are issued retired badges. They don't want official badges floating around that someone could use to impersonate an officer. Think of the liability that they would have if that happened. I am hoping that you did not pay hundreds of dollars for this because it appears you should give it back. I doubt if the police department would call you if they did not feel they were on solid ground. Probably should have sold it privately cause you got caught.

BTW, I am not a lawyer, but I would give it back, especially if you live in Oakland!

[ultraman6970]

Always you can say you sold it at CL and the guy picked up a few days ago, did you answer emails already or something.

[Steve in SLO]

The crux of the matter is whether at the time of his retirement it was legal to take his badge, not what is legal now. All else would hinge on that.

[Fixed]

are you sure the caller was with the o.p.d. ?
cheers

[EPOJoe]

The crux of the matter is whether at the time of his retirement it was legal to take his badge, not what is legal now. All else would hinge on that.

I was thinking along these same lines, but how the heck would you go about finding out what was legal at the turn of the 20th century? An attorney or a historian (or a legal historian)?

Contacted by this gentleman at the Oakland PD by phone and instructed not to sell, so I'm not going to do anything until I can figure out what I'm legally allowed to do. He sounded like he was genuine, and supplied me with a return number and email, which I'll confirm on Monday.

[Steve in SLO]

I think the onus would be on the PD, not you, to prove.

[robertt8883]

Get a good lawyer for advise.Some one on the Forum has to have a connection that might be reading this thread !

[Don49]

eBay has a page with information specifically on selling badges. Have a look here: http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/police.html then click on "Badges and identification".

My layman's opinion is that if eBay allows the badge to be auctioned per their policies, I would feel safe in doing so.

[Louis]

One option you have is to ask them to produce in writing the legal basis for their position. It's very easy for them to say over the phone something like "It's our policy to do xyz" whether that is true or not. I'm not a lawyer, but I would think that it's a different matter for them to say that in writing.

Good Luck

[Louis]

PS - Tell them they don't need that stinkin' thing... :D :D :D

[soul survivor]

Two choices:

Walk into the Oakland PD and speak with a Community Relations Officer. Tell them about the call that you received and, if they request the badge, ask them for the basis for their request.

Or just sell the badge and run the risk of being charged with an offense.

I'd take choice 1.

[Fixed]

how much did you pay for it ?
maybe you should give the badge to them and get some good karma from it
it might mean a lot to them .
it is always best to be on the good side of the police . or ask them if you sell it you could make a nice donation to the police with part of the money .
these are the guys who risk their lives to protect you and your loved ones .
imho cheers

[Climb01742]

there might be another option. my guess is that the police don't want the badge 'in circulation', out in the public domain, where it might be misused. is there a museum you could offer the badge to? for example, i know there is a museum of the city of new york. is there a museum of oakland or sf that might find a turn of the century badge historic? perhaps they could pay you something in return. then, you'd get some money and the police would get the badge out of circulation. just a thought.

[BumbleBeeDave]

My daughter's MTB was stolen out of her dorm basement laundry room a couple of years ago.

When we filed the police report I asked the officer what I should do if I were driving around Saratoga and saw somebody riding her bike. She said I could call them to come on out, but I would have to be able to produce some proof the bike was mine (my daughter's). So I still have a copy of the original police report and the receipt for the bike in my glove box.

The Oakland PD want their badge back? I would agree with several others--ask them what the basis for their claim of ownership is. This guy claims to be with Oakland PD . . . politely ask him to prove it.

Is their basis city ordinance? State law? Federal law? Also, just because the badge says Oakland PD doesn't mean it originally came from there. And if there IS local or federal law in effect now, was the same law in effect when the badge went out of circulation, i.e., when the seller's relative died? If the law states nothing about such circumstances, then you MAY be in the clear. I also noticed that the other auctions that came up in your link all clearly say "antique" and "obsolete" in their titles. What does today's Oakland PD badge look like?

Also do some search on Google for a national club for badge collectors . . . like this one:

http://www.collectors-badges.com/

They've got quite a bit of legalese on their cover page. Might do some good to poke around a bit there without revealing too much . . .

BBD

[1centaur]

I found this on a site operated by a retired LA police officer who apparently buys badges:

http://badgehistory.com/PC538g.html

I found that site because he posted on this site

http://www.pbase.com/samsast/obsolete_and_current_police_badges

where he posted this:

Mike B 31-May-2010 18:46
Retired Los Angeles County Sheriff's Deputy collects any items pertaining to this Department. I buy all LA County badges EXCEPT current style. They are illegal and subject to confiscation.

[djg]

If it's worth it to you to have counsel on this, the type of attorney you want is a CALIFORNIA lawyer -- somebody licensed to practice in your state. I'd guess that you'd want to ask around locally for somebody with a small general practice and a good reputation. This may be relatively simple, but if the police have contacted you already and told you that you have a certain legal obligation . . . well, they could be wrong -- either arguably wrong or flat out, baseless, wrong -- but a prudent person might be hesitant to jump to that conclusion based on something posted on an unofficial web site.

[hookookadoo]

I found this on a site operated by a retired LA police officer who apparently buys badges:

http://badgehistory.com/PC538g.html



Interesting situation. I think the answer is clear as mud. While the retired officer was probably legally given the badge the above link seems to suggest it is illegal to transfer or sell a badge implying the grandson did not have the right to transfer/sell it to you nor do you have the right to transfer/sell it to others. Not crystal clear on that but the language and spirit of part b(not a) in the link above seems to capture that. As for ownership, I'd say the onus is definitely on them as they have to take you to court to prove the whole sequence of events that ultimately led you to receiving the badge. And in fact there might be statute of limitations that prevent that since they gave up ownership 100 years ago(or however long it has been since the original officer received it). Keep us posted!

[BumbleBeeDave]

Interesting situation. I think the answer is clear as mud. While the retired officer was probably legally given the badge the above link seems to suggest it is illegal to transfer or sell a badge implying the grandson did not have the right to transfer/sell it to you nor do you have the right to transfer/sell it to others. Not crystal clear on that but the language and spirit of part b(not a) in the link above seems to capture that. As for ownership, I'd say the onus is definitely on them as they have to take you to court to prove the whole sequence of events that ultimately led you to receiving the badge. And in fact there might be statute of limitations that prevent that since they gave up ownership 100 years ago(or however long it has been since the original officer received it). Keep us posted!

. . . for my post, I'm sure there are many, MANY others who have faced the same situation and many serious collectors who know the solution and use it. I would urge him to do more research himself before seeking--and paying the $$--for counsel.

BBD

[Ahneida Ride]

attorney representation = frns

that hurts ..

[Aaron O]

If it's worth it to you to have counsel on this, the type of attorney you want is a CALIFORNIA lawyer -- somebody licensed to practice in your state. I'd guess that you'd want to ask around locally for somebody with a small general practice and a good reputation. This may be relatively simple, but if the police have contacted you already and told you that you have a certain legal obligation . . . well, they could be wrong -- either arguably wrong or flat out, baseless, wrong -- but a prudent person might be hesitant to jump to that conclusion based on something posted on an unofficial web site.

DING DING DING. Legal advice on the internet is free, and you get what you pay for. I work in a legal department and wouldn't even consider offering advice on this. If you're worried, speak with a California attorney or do some research on California law. I will tell you that, in my experience, what police say is the law, and think is the law, often times isn't the law, it's their policy/preference. In my area they do what they see as being in their interest and let people challenge them if they have a problem with it.

[NRRider]

PS - Tell them they don't need that stinkin' thing... :D :D :D
Winner! :beer:

[Louis]

maybe you should give the badge to them and get some good karma from it

In cases like these I say screw karma. If the request for the badge had been from an individual, say the grandson of the original officer's partner, who had a collection of police stuff, including the partner's stuff and a picture of the two officers with badge numbers visible, then I might consider selling the stuff to him at cost.

However, when it comes to someone who is essentially acting as an agent of the department, karma has nothing to do with it. You can be sure that karma is not a consideration in their day-to-day dealings with the public

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . if this person really is an agent of the department or not. He called on the phone and said he was, but anybody can do that.

Going to an attorney may be the right thing to do, but before you proceed, you need something legit in writing asking for the return of the badge or something else that let's you make an informed decision on what further to do. Like making an effort yourself to do some further research on whether any applicable laws might apply. You don't need a "real" lawyer to do that, but a couple of hours with a "real" lawyer and you have suddenly eaten up any profit you're going to make off of this.

BBD

[Ralph]

You could ask them to put their request in writing, quoting/naming whichever statute they say gives them this authority. That way you at least know what you're up against. That's how I would handle it. Be adult and professional about it.

[rwsaunders]

I wouldn't give it up unless this guy shows up on your doorstep...

[Pete Serotta]

I think the onus would be on the PD, not you, to prove.
:confused:

[SEABREEZE]

Remember someone on a phone is nothing more than a voice, why do you think you receive certified , return signed signature receipt requested letters from attorneys offices.

You can deny that it was you on the phone. You really dont know who was on the other end of the line. Until you receive something in writing and citing the statue that your in violation of, if any.

Then consult an attorney to find out your options...

Because Aron O knows what hes's talking about
I work in a legal department and wouldn't even consider offering advice on this. If you're worried, speak with a California attorney or do some research on California law. I will tell you that, in my experience, what police say is the law, and think is the law, often times isn't the law, it's their policy/preference. In my area they do what they see as being in their interest and let people challenge them if they have a problem with it.

[toaster]

Like cops never steal.

Don't need a lawyer, tell him to go fly a kite.

[avalonracing]

PS - Tell them they don't need that stinkin' thing... :D :D :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqomZQMZQCQ

[EPOJoe]

Just emailed this to the officer that requested the return of the badge...


"Dear Officer XXXXX,

As pertaining to our conversation of 3/4/2011, in which you (as an agent of the Oakland PD) claimed ownership, and requested the return, of the hundred year old Oakland PD badge I had up for auction on Ebay.

I've since been in contact with several prominent national badge collectors who have all assured me that you have no legal claim on a badge this old. They have furthermore indicated that the only police department nationally that has any laws instituted that give it the right to older badges is the LAPD, and this is only enforced through copyright issues.

Just to clarify, this badge is extremely early, near one-hundred years old if not older. I received the badge from the grandson of the officer who wore it, who informed me that his grandfather was the first officer to leave horse duty and volunteer for the "Truck" or paddy wagon detail. I'm currently in the process of securing a notarized statement from the grandson of the officer, stating that the badge was legally given to his grandfather, and that his grandfather did not "steal or unlawfully" take the badge from the department, an insinuation he found highly insulting.

Your claim that your department owns any badge ever issued, no matter the age, would indicate that no antique badge could ever legally be owned by a collector, despite that fact that there are countless thousands of antique badges sold and owned every year by collectors, many of whom are police officers.

The legal advice I've received states that any laws that would actually pertain to the ownership/transfer of this badge would have to be the laws that were in place at the time the badge was issued/retired, which would have been the very early 1900's. If you have access to these laws, or any other laws that you think accurately pertain to your claimed ownership of this antique badge, please email them (or references to them) to me so I can present them to my legal representation.

If, in light of the preceding information, you still insist on proceeding with your claim, please advise me that you intend to do so, and include the laws which you believe are applicable.

Thanks very much,
Joe Giannone"

[Louis]

A reasonable response IMO. Enough push-back to show that you are not going to just give it back to him, but not telling him "FU."

[martinrjensen]

You gave them a awful lot of information. I really think you ought to delete about 90% of that before you send it. While all that may be true, you don't need to do their homework for them. Not only that, you are telling them what you plan to do. Bad move. Give them the minimum required reply, absolutely minimum.
They are being dicks either on purpose or just by being ignorant. Calling someone up on the phone saying "give us back our stuff" is hardly an official query.
Personally I would ignore any phone call. I'm assuming they called and did not send a registered letter or anything.
Quit trying to be nice, they are not.Just emailed this to the officer that requested the return of the badge...


"Dear Officer XXXXX,

As pertaining to our conversation of 3/4/2011, in which you (as an agent of the Oakland PD) claimed ownership, and requested the return, of the hundred year old Oakland PD badge I had up for auction on Ebay.

I've since been in contact with several prominent national badge collectors who have all assured me that you have no legal claim on a badge this old. They have furthermore indicated that the only police department nationally that has any laws instituted that give it the right to older badges is the LAPD, and this is only enforced through copyright issues.

Just to clarify, this badge is extremely early, near one-hundred years old if not older. I received the badge from the grandson of the officer who wore it, who informed me that his grandfather was the first officer to leave horse duty and volunteer for the "Truck" or paddy wagon detail. I'm currently in the process of securing a notarized statement from the grandson of the officer, stating that the badge was legally given to his grandfather, and that his grandfather did not "steal or unlawfully" take the badge from the department, an insinuation he found highly insulting.

Your claim that your department owns any badge ever issued, no matter the age, would indicate that no antique badge could ever legally be owned by a collector, despite that fact that there are countless thousands of antique badges sold and owned every year by collectors, many of whom are police officers.

The legal advice I've received states that any laws that would actually pertain to the ownership/transfer of this badge would have to be the laws that were in place at the time the badge was issued/retired, which would have been the very early 1900's. If you have access to these laws, or any other laws that you think accurately pertain to your claimed ownership of this antique badge, please email them (or references to them) to me so I can present them to my legal representation.

If, in light of the preceding information, you still insist on proceeding with your claim, please advise me that you intend to do so, and include the laws which you believe are applicable.

Thanks very much,
Joe Giannone"

[oliver1850]

.

[oldpotatoe]

You gave them a awful lot of information. I really think you ought to delete about 90% of that before you send it. While all that may be true, you don't need to do their homework for them. Not only that, you are telling them what you plan to do. Bad move. Give them the minimum required reply, absolutely minimum.
They are being dicks either on purpose or just by being ignorant. Calling someone up on the phone saying "give us back our stuff" is hardly an official query.
Personally I would ignore any phone call. I'm assuming they called and did not send a registered letter or anything.
Quit trying to be nice, they are not.

I didn't get the impression the guy on the phone wasn't 'nice'. Don't think he yelled and screamed, make threats or anything like that. Cops aren't automatically 'bad', as many of these posts imply.

[Fixed]

my boss says it is like poker guard your cards
cheers

[brians647]

This.
Remember someone on a phone is nothing more than a voice, why do you think you receive certified , return signed signature receipt requested letters from attorneys offices.

You can deny that it was you on the phone. You really dont know who was on the other end of the line. Until you receive something in writing and citing the statue that your in violation of, if any.

Then consult an attorney to find out your options...

Because Aron O knows what hes's talking about
I work in a legal department and wouldn't even consider offering advice on this. If you're worried, speak with a California attorney or do some research on California law. I will tell you that, in my experience, what police say is the law, and think is the law, often times isn't the law, it's their policy/preference. In my area they do what they see as being in their interest and let people challenge them if they have a problem with it.
And this.
tell him to go fly a kite.


Do some research, and maybe sell it privately, maybe relist it...
But until someone comes to your door, ignore it.

[pbjbike]

Betting the OPD won't pursue this since you pulled the listing. Sell it on CL, for cash. List for a day, then cancel. Do it again, if not sold the first time. Once it's gone, you're out of the loop. Anyone here could make that badge out of some .040 silver and a hacksaw/file/Dremel...

[Jeff N.]

I own two WWII-era Colt .45 Automatic Pistols. Both clearly are rollmarked with, "United States Property". They're worth big bucks on the collector market. My late uncle brought 'em home after the war. Think I'd give 'em back if they came knocking? Uh-uh. Neither should you with that badge. I read once that Elvis had an extensive badge collection. Think he'dve given his back? Not hardly. Jeff N.

[martinrjensen]

he was polite. he's not being nice. He's being arrogant also, wanting a 100 year old badge. he has no clue. Maybe he decided to do this all by himself too.I didn't get the impression the guy on the phone wasn't 'nice'. Don't think he yelled and screamed, make threats or anything like that. Cops aren't automatically 'bad', as many of these posts imply.

[C5 Snowboarder]

Have you thought of bypassing the Police -- and going directly to the city prosecuting attorney? The police can only arrest -- they cannot prosecute-- that the city attorney's job. You can ask them for an opinion. :beer:

[sean]

Find a fake, mail it to them.

Then tell them they have better things to do like talking the increasing murder rate in the city.

IMHO, it just sounds like someone is using his/her flex because they either want it or were one of the lossing bidders that may happen to work for OPD.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Find a fake, mail it to them.

Then tell them they have better things to do like talking the increasing murder rate in the city.

IMHO, it just sounds like someone is using his/her flex because they either want it or were one of the lossing bidders that may happen to work for OPD.

. . my limited research on Google turned up quite a bit of bad press for the Oakland PD.

BBD

[ultraman6970]

mail them a box with a delivery confirmation, and a hole in it.

No.. better get a kids police kit and put the plastic badge, the plastic gun and a note saying "here it is, you can have together with the gun!"

ps: wonder if arent the cops the ones bugging you but a collector playing a prank to get the badge for free or something.

[Aaron O]

Find a fake, mail it to them.

Then tell them they have better things to do like talking the increasing murder rate in the city.

IMHO, it just sounds like someone is using his/her flex because they either want it or were one of the lossing bidders that may happen to work for OPD.

It's probably a bad idea to lie to police or attempt to fool them. That tends to make them angry and the old saying is...out of a courtroom, police beats lawyer. In a court room, lawyer wins. What some of this means is unless you're willing to go to court and sue people, don't mess with the bull. Police have almost absolute power in an on street confrontation and you can always be arrested under the good old catch all "disturbing the peace".

Personally I'd look up what the statutes are, talk to other badge collectors and check any case law. That's assuming you're unwilling to ask an attorney for advice. I think unless you've seen someone in person, or received an official letter, you can likely ignore it.

[Pete Serotta]

This is very good advice from Aaron. :) Pete


It's probably a bad idea to lie to police or attempt to fool them. That tends to make them angry and the old saying is...out of a courtroom, police beats lawyer. In a court room, lawyer wins. What some of this means is unless you're willing to go to court and sue people, don't mess with the bull. Police have almost absolute power in an on street confrontation and you can always be arrested under the good old catch all "disturbing the peace".

Personally I'd look up what the statutes are, talk to other badge collectors and check any case law. That's assuming you're unwilling to ask an attorney for advice. I think unless you've seen someone in person, or received an official letter, you can likely ignore it.

[sean]

it was more a :p response than anything else.

[gdw]

The first thing you need to do is confirm that the guy who contacted you is actually an Oakland police officer and if so, what his position is in the department. If he really is one of Oakland's finest, get his rank and call his supervisor to determine whether he is acting on the department's behalf or just yanking your chain trying to score a badge for HIS collection. If the guy turns out to be a phony or acting on his own you're clear. If he is legitimate, contact other California collectors and see what they advise. They might be more knowledgeable than the officer who contacted you and could provide the information needed to end the situation promptly in your favor.
Your last recourse is turning to a lawyer for assistance. I doubt that you'll find one who has any experience with situations like yours and it will get costly paying for their time while they get up to speed and decide what to do.

[Polyglot]

You could always donate it to the OPD and take the tax deduction for the value reached in the auction, asking for the OPD to give you a receipt. Depending on your income, the $1200 deduction might be sufficiently interesting, especially when combined with the good karma...

[Tom Byrnes]

Just emailed this to the officer that requested the return of the badge...


"Dear Officer XXXXX,

As pertaining to our conversation of 3/4/2011, in which you (as an agent of the Oakland PD) claimed ownership, and requested the return, of the hundred year old Oakland PD badge I had up for auction on Ebay.

I've since been in contact with several prominent national badge collectors who have all assured me that you have no legal claim on a badge this old. They have furthermore indicated that the only police department nationally that has any laws instituted that give it the right to older badges is the LAPD, and this is only enforced through copyright issues.

Just to clarify, this badge is extremely early, near one-hundred years old if not older. I received the badge from the grandson of the officer who wore it, who informed me that his grandfather was the first officer to leave horse duty and volunteer for the "Truck" or paddy wagon detail. I'm currently in the process of securing a notarized statement from the grandson of the officer, stating that the badge was legally given to his grandfather, and that his grandfather did not "steal or unlawfully" take the badge from the department, an insinuation he found highly insulting.

Your claim that your department owns any badge ever issued, no matter the age, would indicate that no antique badge could ever legally be owned by a collector, despite that fact that there are countless thousands of antique badges sold and owned every year by collectors, many of whom are police officers.

The legal advice I've received states that any laws that would actually pertain to the ownership/transfer of this badge would have to be the laws that were in place at the time the badge was issued/retired, which would have been the very early 1900's. If you have access to these laws, or any other laws that you think accurately pertain to your claimed ownership of this antique badge, please email them (or references to them) to me so I can present them to my legal representation.

If, in light of the preceding information, you still insist on proceeding with your claim, please advise me that you intend to do so, and include the laws which you believe are applicable.

Thanks very much,
Joe Giannone"

Joe,

I am an attorney.

My two cents: Your email is great. It should trigger a detailed response where proof of the identity of the caller and the legal authority for his request will have to be revealed.

Absent compelling legal authority, I do not believe that the City of Oakland can claim ownership of the badge you have.

Good luck.

Tom

[asava]

i did a quick search of local statutes and codes and found nothing that indicated you needed to give it back. i think we all are looking forward to seeing what they send back. should be laughable.

[SEABREEZE]

Alot of folks are assuming its in fact OPD, however it could be any one from a distraut bidder to it actually being the OPD.

The fat lady hasn't sung yet, but it should be intersting when she does.

[Dekonick]

mail them a box with a delivery confirmation, and a hole in it.
Muhahahaha!

Awesome!

[Louis]

Muhahahaha!

Awesome!

I hear that that works for Di2 components also...