OT Used car advice

[keithreynolds]

wanting suggestions to replace a wrx

[bmeryman]

Admittedly I have not been driving for that long and thus do not have extensive experience with various vehicles, but I really enjoy my Subaru Legacy. It's an '05 wagon, just the base version. During the summer when I'm going to bike races I'll average about 31mpg. During winter and when going on shorter trips it'll be around 27mpg.

I can also fit two people (including myself) and bikes inside the car which helps with the gas mileage. If I'm driving more people, then I'll just put two or three bikes on the roof. It's been a great all around car for New England.

Good luck with your search and feel free to ask any questions (I probably forgot something useful).

[fourflys]

why don't you look at at Scion XB? The older ones especially... sounds like you're not too worried about offroadability or power, so the Scion might just be the ticket...

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQcpJfi6EdTzNBeZmt6LeLLWbNHUUqEU xdp8YNAGt0cGFWaEDIy

[christian]

What makes you think a Corolla or Camry are bad in snow? With proper tires, they can get through nearly anything. Without proper snow tires, everything, up to and including a LR 109, stinks. Put a set of Blizzak WS70s on a Corolla, and I can't think of any road in North America you can't drive.

[old_fat_and_slow]

Get a used Honda or Toyota. Doesn't really matter what model.

If I were in your shoes, I'd get a used Toyota Tacoma. Especially the older smaller-sized ones. Great for haulin' yer bikes and all your bike sh*t. Decent mileage, and last fuhevah. Check 'em out.

[goonster]

A 2000-2005 BMW 325ix should meet all of your requirements. You'll get AWD and better fuel economy than the Sube (mid 20's). It will be reliable, but maintenance costs might be high-ish. I just bought one, so my endorsement is not just cheap talk. Do your homework here (http://www.bimmerfest.com/wiki/index.php/BMW_E46).

You might also add the Honda Element to your list. Outstanding bike haulage, but not too big for the city. Dunno what kind of mileage they actually get.

[fourflys]

Get a used Honda or Toyota. Doesn't really matter what model.

If I were in your shoes, I'd get a used Toyota Tacoma. Especially the older smaller-sized ones. Great for haulin' yer bikes and all your bike sh*t. Decent mileage, and last fuhevah. Check 'em out.

pretty sure the Tacoma is out due to mpg... that's why I suggested the Scion, it is a Toyota afterall...

[cdn_bacon]

I vote Ford Escape. Specially a Hybrid.

[bike22]

corolla/camry or honda fit.

[fourflys]

A 2000-2005 BMW 325ix should meet all of your requirements. You'll get AWD and better fuel economy than the Sube (mid 20's). It will be reliable, but maintenance costs might be high-ish.

LOL.... owning a different German sports sedan, I'd have to disagree... BTW- if that awd system goes out, look out for $$$ fixing it...

BTW- NEVER go to an enthusiast's forum to get true opinions on a car... you'll either get all love from someone who hasn't had any issues or is just a hardhead or you'll get all hate from someone who had a bad time... kind of like a cycling forum... ;) try to find something a little less biased...

also, I really hope you have a great experience with yours goonster...

[goonster]

LOL.... owning a different German sports sedan, I'd have to disagree... BTW- if that awd system goes out, look out for $$$ fixing it...

The front CV joints go, and then you have to replace the whole axle, but the (Magna) differentials are simple and solid. Never heard of one failing. There are a lot of E46's out there, it's not an exotic car by any stretch of the imagination.

[benb]

If the fit is too new to be cheap enough maybe you could find a Civic Si Hatch (2001-2005) or an Acura RSX (2001-2006).

After 2006 the Civics went Sedan/Coupe and the RSX disappeared and their bike hauling capabilities went down the toilet...

But those earlier ones are probably just coming into the price range you're looking at and meet a lot of the requirements. They are both probably hard to find though. Both have better fuel economy then the WRX but are still pretty sporty, and both are fine getting through the winter assuming they aren't fitted with summer tires.

You could also look for a used Toyota Matrix, Scion xB or a Honda Element.. less sporty, probably even better for hauling stuff. The Matrix and the Element were available with AWD.

This is all predicated on my opinion that hauling expensive bikes inside a car is decidedly superior to hauling them on the exterior of a car.

[cmg]

get a toyota or Honda. currently have a corolla, a sedan and hatchback civic all standard. 89- 94 toy 97 sedan. the 89 is rack and pinion steering, no power windows. these are cheap to aquire, cheap to repair, cheap to drive, cheap to insure. i tend to drive them until the motor or transmission fails. toyota is going on engine #2, replaced at 172k. spent less than $7k for all of them. driven in rotation. don't care about horsepower or looks, not going to impress anybody but i do care about keeping repair cost to a minimum, getting a high MPG and spending the dollars on other stuff. comfort yep, pep not so much.

[dave thompson]

Here's my candidate. It's my 5th Volvo. My first one went over 300,000 miles before I scrapped it. My experience with Volvos has been they are very reliable, very comfortable, relatively sporty and fairly peppy. There are tradeoffs no matter what you get, so you have to balance needs and wants.

My 2004 V70 has just turned 70,000, no maintenance issues and according to its computer it has averaged 24.3 mpg for the last 4,000 miles. A very good winter car and an excellent traveling car. It has built-in hidden roof rack mounts standard so mounting and de-mounting the rack is a snap. I can't say enough good about these cars. I'll probably be buried in one. :rolleyes:

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/3706/travelrs2.jpg

[biker72]

I have a 2008 Honda CR-V that I really like. I can even put my bike inside. Mine is not AWD but those are available.

Mileage in town is 22-25mpg and last summer on a trip I got 29mpg....doing 70-75mph.

I also looked at a Toyota RAV-4 and a Nissan Rogue. The Rogue was too small to fit the bike inside. The RAV-4 is a little bigger inside but I hated the spare tire outside on the rear door.

All 3 of these vehicles have been very reliable according to Consumer Reports and have AWD models.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I'll probably be buried in one. :rolleyes:

. . . clutching a bottle of Tequila and a cigar in your mouth, no doubt! . . . :p

BBD

[BumbleBeeDave]

If you want reliable consult Consumer Reports for their used cars to avoid. Then avoid them.

BBD

[Ken Robb]

I rented a new 2011 Jeep Liberty for 900 miles a few weeks ago. It got 15.6mpg in town and 18.5-21mpg on the highway. This was with the 3.7 liter V-6 which provided barely adequate acceleration with 2 people and luggage. The ride/handling compromise was good and it had no squeaks or rattles.

[dave thompson]

. . . clutching a bottle of Tequila and a cigar in your mouth, no doubt! . . . :p

BBD
True, my reliquary:

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3661/perfection11.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/i/perfection11.jpg/)

[AngryScientist]

the wife just traded in her newer Jeep liberty due to abysmal gas mileage. she's a very conservative driver, and never averaged above 16 mpg, mostly highway driving, some city, i say forget them, with the price of gas, its a tough hit to take, the roubicon will surely be even worse.

when we were looking for a replacement, we test drove the fit, absolutely, positively, hated it. the complete lack of drivetrain refinement was a total put-off for me. IMO, completely inadequate power (we drove the manual 5-sp), my wife does not by any means need a fast car, but merging onto an onramp would be scarey in the fit IMO.

we wound up with a Jetta, it was a nice compromise of a lot of things, and i really like the new ones. the 5M is nice and smooth, adequate engine power, claimed 34 mpg highway, all is well.

[Ralph]

When someone asks me a question about buying a used car.....I usually say all recently manufactured vehicles will run a long long time......if properly maintained. About anything will run 150,000-200,000 miles these days. Especially the lower level models with fewer gadgets . And generally engines will outlast bodies.....which is the exact opposite of what most think.

Also I suggest considering those vehicles that depreciate the most in first few years. They make the best used car bargains. They are generally the most unpopular vehicles. "Buy new those vehicles that don't depreciate much, and buy used those vehicles that depreciate a lot early in their life".

As an example.....A lot of people think a plain Dodge minivan a few years old, which sells for almost nothing, is not a good vehicle. That's just what people think. But I know a bunch of them with well over 200,000 mostly trouble free miles. And sure....a vehicle in that category is not screwed together like a BMW, but it can last as long as one.

Another example.....Honda dealers get almost as much money for a 1-2 year old Odyssey as you can bargain for a new one. I don't understand why anyone would buy one used. Same story for my 2010 Element. Used ones go for almost as much as invoice on new ones. Go to sites like Edmunds, Intellichoice, and some others, and research vehicles that have already depreciated a lot. THose are the bargains. Just my opinion.

[drewski]

I'm thinking of a replacement vehicle.. have a subaru wrx which has a complicated turbo motor and falling value.

First I'm not much of a car guy; I can change my oil, spark plugs (hard in wrx), battery, winter/summer tires, etc. I could care less what the vehicle looks like but I do like comfort and some pep.

goals:
less thank 10k
reliable (ideal 5+yrs w/o major repairs)
something I can fit 2 bikes in (ideal) or 3+ on top.
good maneuverability (city). 4 door jeep is pushing it, wrx is pretty good in my mind.
good to better gas mileage (above my current 23)
for daily driver + bike trips

your thoughts on repairs/value of a private purchase of:
jeep rubicon (+4wd, -gas, -noisy on HW)
older bmw 3xx or 5xx (+comfort, -repairs). Would you avoid an early 2000s? Just how bad are visits to repair?
older toyota corolla/camry (+longevity,+repairs,-bad in snow)
Honda Fit (outside of current price range)
replacement subaru (+awd, +familiar)


What about a Hondy Odyssey. Try to stay away from '02 due to known
trannie issues. I have an 2002 Odyssey that had the transmission changed actually am thinking of selling mine.
If you can afford to take a look in my part of the US. South of Virginia
you can find them with little or no rust.

[csm]

Honda Element!

[salem]

If you enjoy the driver feedback (steering and brake feel) of the WRX (good car in these areas), you might find the Honda and particularly the Toyota products less engaging. A similarly Japanese option, that also gives you the option of a hatch for easy bike loading, is the Mazda 3. It also depreciates more than the Honda and Toyota.

Also, I'll second the comments about 2wd and snow. Tires are really the key despite many continuing to not believe this. I'd take 2wd with good modern snows over any Awd with with most all-season tires in the white stuff, even for racing (yes, done some of that, in the white stuff too). As for the cost of extra tires and wheels, it is less than additional drivetrain, and really the only added cost is the wheels as tire wear is tire wear, regardless of having summer or winter tires on the car.

[572cv]

I went through a similar exercise last year. Looked for good mileage, carry the bike, reasonably reliable, zippy!!, etc. I am in snow country. Through the reading literature, and the web, I had a short list: BMW 3 series xi, VW golf diesel, VW golf GTI, vw Jetta tdi cup, volvo s-40 t5, subaru wrx, saabaru aero, audi A3... whichever showed up on the used market at a good price.

I ended up with an '06 volvo s40 t5 AWD six speed with 37K on it. On the Consumer Reports list as o.k. Quite good in snow with the michelin snows, decent mileage- high twenties on average, and very good punch with the t5 turbo. It is comfortable, nicely fitted and you can fold down the seats in the back to put your bike inside if you are a solo driver. The wagon is better for carrying bike, but the sedan is ok. I would have bought something else if it had come along, but I am happy with the result. Good value so far. Good luck with your choice!

[dave thompson]

I went through a similar exercise last year. Looked for good mileage, carry the bike, reasonably reliable, zippy!!, etc. I am in snow country. Through the reading literature, and the web, I had a short list: BMW 3 series xi, VW golf diesel, VW golf GTI, vw Jetta tdi cup, volvo s-40 t5, subaru wrx, saabaru aero, audi A3... whichever showed up on the used market at a good price.

I ended up with an '06 volvo s40 t5 AWD six speed with 37K on it. On the Consumer Reports list as o.k. Quite good in snow with the michelin snows, decent mileage- high twenties on average, and very good punch with the t5 turbo. It is comfortable, nicely fitted and you can fold down the seats in the back to put your bike inside if you are a solo driver. The wagon is better for carrying bike, but the sedan is ok. I would have bought something else if it had come along, but I am happy with the result. Good value so far. Good luck with your choice!
A side note: most late model Volvos both sedans and wagons from 2001 on, if not equipped with factory roof racks, have built in receptacles for what Volvo calls 'load bars'. These load bars essentially clip-in to these receptacles, which are concealed in the rain gutters, and are rated to carry 200 lbs. They install in literally just a few minutes and remove just as easily when not needed and leave no evidence of being there. I owned my V70 for almost a year before I discovered these nifty items. I've carried two bikes and a sky box with no issues. The load bars are made by Thule for Volvo and are lockable.

[AngryScientist]

A side note: most late model Volvos both sedans and wagons from 2001 on, if not equipped with factory roof racks, have built in receptacles for what Volvo calls 'load bars'. These load bars essentially clip-in to these receptacles, which are concealed in the rain gutters, and are rated to carry 200 lbs. They install in literally just a few minutes and remove just as easily when not needed and leave no evidence of being there. I owned my V70 for almost a year before I discovered these nifty items. I've carried two bikes and a sky box with no issues. The load bars are made by Thule for Volvo and are lockable.

same deal for BMW.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=30251&stc=1&d=1151677542

[Louis]

I'm thinking of a replacement vehicle.. have a subaru wrx which has a complicated turbo motor and falling value.

Keith,

I eventually need to replace my '97 Integra and the Impreza WRX 5-dr is on my list to test-drive. (and maybe the non-WRX)

Based on what you said above I'm wondering if you would you say that the WRX is not a good choice. Is that correct? care to share more details?

(What I'm looking for: I'm a "buy it and keep it as long as possible" guy. I bought the Integra because it is incredibly reliable, kind of sporty, has very good gas mileage and the hatch is great to carry stuff around. I'd buy the exact same car again new if Acura still made them.)

TIA
Louis

[NHAero]

A vote here for the Fit. I don't get the on-ramp comment. Moved here with 4 road bikes in mine with only the front wheels off (but they're not 62cm frames :-) 40 mpg.
Another car that might fit your price range is a Toyota Prius. Very capacious, quiet on the highway, of course great gas mileage. I had a 2005 and it was rock solid, but I preferred my sweetie's Fit so traded the Pious for the Fit (sounds good, don't it?)

[keithreynolds]

First, a thanks to everyone for input. I will be replying after I do some research.

Keith,
Based on what you said above I'm wondering if you would you say that the WRX is not a good choice. Is that correct? care to share more details?


Louis, I'm also one of those keep it for as long as possible. It just might be more to keep than to let go at this point.

Don't get me wrong, this is now my second wagon wrx. First was '02 and this now the '04. Both new. The short story on the '02 was that the dealership continued to replace clutches and eventually 2nd gear broke while they were on a joy-ride. I never felt comfortable after and traded in for a new '04.

Now I have ~one fifty-K miles. The only major service I've had is: timing belt, water pump and idler pully (expected). I also had some brake work which needed a new caliper. It has been a blast to drive, handles well and can brake very fast (needed daily on 93/128).

I do see maintenance needs in the future. Right now the car is worth 6-7k (kbb private sale), actually higher than I thought.

complaints: 91octane or higher (around here that means 93), timing belt due every 100k miles, every time I open the hood it's nearly impossible to "see" due to turbo/other "upgrades", subies known to have head gasket problems.

annoyances: seats have a waffle pattern that 'hold' food, bike racks need to be reversed (interfere with hatch), a little low with un-plowed streets, coffee holders interfere with stereo/only 1 big enough for a bike bottle. all pretty minor.

pluses: 5-door was $500 cheaper than the 4-door at the time, fast, fits 3-4 bikes, can put a 54cm bike in the back w/o removing a wheel, can hold some bulky items with the hatch, maneuverable, good on my icy road (often un-plowed), little need for a shovel even with snow around it, ~23 actual mpg (with the conservative way I drive), only a $60 excise tax, no payments remain.

here's my workhorse:
http://i55.tinypic.com/2h3sl7d.jpg

[Louis]

Thanks Keith. I'll keep them on my list. (And check out the ground-clearance issue. I have a longish driveway that doesn't get plowed in the winter.)

Louis

[veloduffer]

How about the following:

Toyota Matrix - hatchback and available in AWD, good gas mileage, very reliable
Kia Sportage
Subaru Outback or Legacy Wagon
Honda Element

[Ken Robb]

Considering only economics I think you can do a LOT of repairs for what sales tax costs on a new car. It's 8.75-9.25 percent in CA. Then there is the reg. fee that is the same for all cars but there is also a 2% tax on the value w/straightline depreciation over 13 years.

Once a car gets to a certain age lots of people drop their comprehensive insurance since the insurer will only pay book value for a total loss.

There are lots of other reasons to want a new (er) car.

[Louis]

How about the following:

Toyota Matrix - hatchback and available in AWD, good gas mileage, very reliable
Kia Sportage
Subaru Outback or Legacy Wagon
Honda Element

Scion tC

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/31/new-york-auto-show-2011-scion-tc/



http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/03/31/automobiles/wheels-Scion-tC/wheels-Scion-tC-blogSpan.jpg

[jh_on_the_cape]

Passat Wagon or Volvo Wagon

I think you are in Boston because I bought something from you once. These are both very common in the area.

I am on the cape. We have a Passat Wagon 2003 (the old one) they looked like that from 2001 to 2005. These have super low resale so you can get a good used one for cheap. Lots of room. 30+ MPG on the highway. Make sure it had oil changes if it is a 1.8 turbo.

Our other car is a 94 Volvo 850 Wagon. That is probably on its way out next time it needs a major repair. I will replace it with a 2004+ Volvo V70 wagon. Look at boston craigslist for sale by owner for V70. Nice car with terrible resale. Great to buy used. I might also look at a saab 9-5. I shy away from AWD so probably not an Audi or BMW. I put on snow tires in the winter. With that and the traction control I have been fine.

[jh_on_the_cape]

Considering only economics I think you can do a LOT of repairs for what sales tax costs on a new car. It's 8.75-9.25 percent in CA. Then there is the reg. fee that is the same for all cars but there is also a 2% tax on the value w/straightline depreciation over 13 years.

Once a car gets to a certain age lots of people drop their comprehensive insurance since the insurer will only pay book value for a total loss.

There are lots of other reasons to want a new (er) car.

agree with this. It's 6% in MA and then for some reason the excise is way more when you first buy the car. This has actually kept us in the old car.

[Ken Robb]

your excise tax is similar to ours that is 2% of the "value". If I buy a new or used car from a dealer or private party the stae gets the sales or use tax of 8.75%-9.25% depending on my community plus the 2% based on the reported sales price. The "value" and hence the amount of the 2% tax is reduced over 13 years but the sales/use tax is paid only once per sale.
It's ironic that once a car reaches 13 years old the 2% goes away because the "value" is zero but if the car is sold for say $4,000 the buyer gets to pay the sales tax plus 2% of the value which is back up to the sale price of $4,000 and it begins a new 13 year depreciation schedule. I think the system was designed by the Federal reserve bank. :rolleyes: :banana: :beer:

[19wisconsin64]

subaru impreza or outback, both front wheel drive (unless you really need awd). you're a subaru guy.

i've had a million cars. avoid the super high cost ones, like bmw, volvo, volkswagen. stick to low repair incident/low repair cost ones like highly rated hondas, subarus, and toyotas.

if you buy privately, you can easily get a car that is listed for $12,000 or more for $10,000. just ask. the new, the lower the miles, the better the owner took care of it, the better for you..... and with that being said, and it being a recession, you should have no problem getting a reliable, spacious, good gas mileage, reliable car!!!

now, if the us started importing more of the wagons that the european market gets......then your options would be even more confusing!!!

good luck in your search!!! (btw, i've had a lot of toyotas, volvos, hondas, and all of the german cars too....loved them all!!!)

[rpettet]

37 MPG highway, holds a ton of stuff, cheap to maintain, etc. Gas is nearly 3.60/gallon here in Watkins Glen, NY.

[kestrel]

We have an Odyssey that is a great bike and people hauler.

We also have a crewcab pickup that is a great bike hauler.

We have a Z06 that is a GREAT one bike hauler with excellent highway MPG.

But my vehicle of choice is our 05 Outback XT limited. Similar gas mileage to the Odyssey, highly maneuverable, a blast to drive, great in the mountains regardless of the weather, and easy to park just about anywhere.

[jh_on_the_cape]

your excise tax is similar to ours that is 2% of the "value". If I buy a new or used car from a dealer or private party the stae gets the sales or use tax of 8.75%-9.25% depending on my community plus the 2% based on the reported sales price. The "value" and hence the amount of the 2% tax is reduced over 13 years but the sales/use tax is paid only once per sale.
It's ironic that once a car reaches 13 years old the 2% goes away because the "value" is zero but if the car is sold for say $4,000 the buyer gets to pay the sales tax plus 2% of the value which is back up to the sale price of $4,000 and it begins a new 13 year depreciation schedule. I think the system was designed by the Federal reserve bank. :rolleyes: :banana: :beer:

oh that's how it works! I always wondere how they figure our more valuable car is worth less than our other car only because we have owned it longer. In MA it's 2.5% excise. There is a $25 minimum I think. It seems to stay between 50 and 100 for a long time. So I you get a use car for 10k you pay 600 sales then 250 the first year. I figure an extra 1000 in the first two years. That's roughly a timing belt in most cars.

[rounder]

I rented a new 2011 Jeep Liberty for 900 miles a few weeks ago. It got 15.6mpg in town and 18.5-21mpg on the highway. This was with the 3.7 liter V-6 which provided barely adequate acceleration with 2 people and luggage. The ride/handling compromise was good and it had no squeaks or rattles.

I was listening to Click and Clack about a year ago and a lady had called in to get encouragement to buy a Jeep Liberty. After about 5 minutes, you could tell she had already fallen for the car and was just looking for one more reason to buy it. Finally, Click (or Clack) asked...well, do you have a name for this car.

She answered proudly...Patrick Henry...Give me liberty or give me death.

[Louis]

The more I continue my search for a new car the more frustrated I get.

I'll soon be at 220,000 miles. I guess I'll just keep driving what I have now. A new clutch is a lot less than an entirely new car.

[sin911]

I would personally get the Honda Fit due to its reliability and you can fit 2 bikes in the back (with the back seats dropped of course). My cousin has one and it's really great and fun to drive. It's a pretty roomy car for its size.

[rounder]

Louis, I hear you. I had to buy a new car a few months ago because my other car got drowned. Cars have gotten expensive and many fun cars today do not hold a bike. For me, most rides start from my house so i decided (like i have done the past few times) to get a car I like and carry the bike on a rack when needed.

[tkbike]

I am also in the market for a new vehicle, my trailblazer is well north of 100k miles, with the price of gas, it is getting very expensive to drive. I have a daily round trip commute of about 70 miles and on average drive about 500 miles per week total.
I need a vehicle with all-wheel drive, decent ground clearance, able to carry three 16' kayaks at a time or two 61cm bikes, camping gear and 6'3" guys. I have it narrowed down to a Subaru Outback or a Volvo XC70, any other suggestions?
By the way, other than routine oil changes, tires, brakes at 90k miles, I have spent $0 on maintenance.

[Louis]

I would personally get the Honda Fit due to its reliability and you can fit 2 bikes in the back (with the back seats dropped of course). My cousin has one and it's really great and fun to drive. It's a pretty roomy car for its size.

I hear you on the Fit.

The problem for me is that I just can't stand the looks of that thing. Call me shallow, call me a guy in denial of the fact that he is rapidly approaching middle age, call me an idiot, call me what you like, but I just can't see myself driving a car that looks like that. I prefer 3-dr, but could live with say, a Mazda 3 5-dr, but the Fit, no way. And believe me, after driving my Integra since 1 April 1997 to today, I want wilth all the rational brain cells in my head to buy a Honda. But not that one.

[dd74]

Whatever you buy, just double check about the level of octane gasoline it uses. You wouldn't want to get stuck with a car that only runs premium.

[AngryScientist]

I hear you on the Fit.

The problem for me is that I just can't stand the looks of that thing. Call me shallow, call me a guy in denial of the fact that he is rapidly approaching middle age, call me an idiot, call me what you like, but I just can't see myself driving a car that looks like that. I prefer 3-dr, but could live with say, a Mazda 3 5-dr, but the Fit, no way. And believe me, after driving my Integra since 1 April 1997 to today, I want wilth all the rational brain cells in my head to buy a Honda. But not that one.

there's nothing wrong with that thinking. first off, the wife and i test drove a fit last weekend to replace her gas guzzling SUV. i could not run away from that FIT fast enough, we were both very disappointed in just how much of an econobox it was, lack of power and refinement were apparent, they were not for us. (we wound up buying a cheaper car thats just as fuel efficient, so this isnt just about $$ here either).

secondly, if you're the type to keep a car forever, you should definitely get something you love, and not settle for something simply sue to practicality. you're going to own if for a decade or so, you better like it today if you hope to like it tomorrow.

[drewski]

I was listening to Click and Clack about a year ago and a lady had called in to get encouragement to buy a Jeep Liberty. After about 5 minutes, you could tell she had already fallen for the car and was just looking for one more reason to buy it. Finally, Click (or Clack) asked...well, do you have a name for this car.

She answered proudly...Patrick Henry...Give me liberty or give me death.


Have you seen the increase in gas prices. Wether they are rational
these prices make the economics of owning a Jeep Liberty dubious
under the best of times. Not to mention the emissions.

Regardless of where you are on the political/religious/science spectrum (as for me I am a Carl Saganist) if you have ever smelled gas for any length of time you have to remember cheap gas has hidden costs.

[AngryScientist]

Have you seen the increase in gas prices. Wether they are rational
these prices make the economics of owning a Jeep Liberty dubious
under the best of times. Not to mention the emissions.
.

Amen, the wife bought a Jeep Liberty when they were giving them away a few years ago, we underestimated just how terrible they would be on gas. we were averaging under 16 mpg, mostly highway, awful. we just got rid of it.

add to that, the quality of the Liberty wasnt very good at all. almost all modern car makers are using stainless steel exhausts nowadays. the Jeep had a cheap carbon steel exhaust system, and the muffler looked to be close to rusted through after 1.5 years of ownership, thats unacceptable for a 2009 vehicle.

on the + sides, since it was heavy as a tank (which is the real factor of why it was so fuel inefficient) it was excellent in any weather, snow, rain, high winds, etc. it was also an excellent vehicle to tow a small boat or trailer with. smaller unibody SUVs are terrible towers, full frame trucks rule here.

overall, the Liberty was an inexpensive way for my wife to get the SUV craze out of her system, thank goodness we've moved on from that.

[texbike]

Here's another vote for the 1st gen Scion Xb. I had one until late last year and it was one of the best cars that I've ever owned. It was a 5 speed and a blast to drive. It wasn't fast by any means, but it handled great and it's really about the "perception" of speed anyway, right? :)

As far as reliability, I had it for 5 years and it had close to 80K miles on it when sold and had nothing more than oil changes, tires, and brakes replaced during that period.

Texbike

[johnnymossville]

A used Fusion/Milan.

[fourflys]

Whatever you buy, just double check about the level of octane gasoline it uses. You wouldn't want to get stuck with a car that only runs premium.

while I see your point, is it really that big of a deal? Here in CA, premium is about $.20 more per gallon... so on a 20 gallon tank (bigger than most cars), you're only talking $4 per fill-up...

would I rather have to not have premium in my car? sure, but it's not deal breaker IMO...

[fourflys]

Here's another vote for the 1st gen Scion Xb. I had one until late last year and it was one of the best cars that I've ever owned. It was a 5 speed and a blast to drive. It wasn't fast by any means, but it handled great and it's really about the "perception" of speed anyway, right? :)

As far as reliability, I had it for 5 years and it had close to 80K miles on it when sold and had nothing more than oil changes, tires, and brakes replaced during that period.

Texbike

yeah, unless you need to tow something or maybe a bit more ground clearence, I really think these are some of the best haulers...

[goonster]

You wouldn't want to get stuck with a car that only runs premium.
What do you mean "stuck"? In a pinch, modern cars can run lower octane fuel without risk of damage.

[dd74]

What do you mean "stuck"? In a pinch, modern cars can run lower octane fuel without risk of damage.
Maybe. But I wouldn't try it. In some of these engines, one detonation and the damage can be substantial. Besides "stuck" is "stuck." Why would you want to run regular unleaded when premium is in the next pump over?

[goonster]

Why would you want to run regular unleaded when premium is in the next pump over?
You wouldn't, which is why I still don't understand your premise.

There are pros and cons to high compression. If all other things were equal I'd understand that the high-octane requirement is undesirable, but they're not.

[zray67]

Whatever you buy, just double check about the level of octane gasoline it uses. You wouldn't want to get stuck with a car that only runs premium.

+1

[dd74]

You wouldn't, which is why I still don't understand your premise.

There are pros and cons to high compression. If all other things were equal I'd understand that the high-octane requirement is undesirable, but they're not.
Well, yes, they are. And many auto publications have stated so because of the higher price of premium over regular.

Say the OP purchases a Mazdaspeed 3, a Subaru WRX Sti, or a VW GTI.

1) Apples to apples, these cars aren't very good as to their MPG, when compared to similar cars as far as utility (hauling bikes, etc), and overall daily driving. When you get into even higher mpg cars, such as the Ford Fiesta, the Mazda 2 or the Toyota Prius, all of which can haul bikes and things, the mpg of the Mazda 3speed, WRX Sti and GTi is downright horrible, much of that due to the performance nature of their engines.

2) Manufacturers of the first three cars I mention specifically state they are to run on premium unleaded gasoline, at least according to the stat sheets in the car magazines where I've read tests of these cars.

3) If an owner runs standard unleaded in a car that is specified to use only premium unleaded, and something catastrophic happens to the engine, logistics via the engine computer might suggest a lesser grade fuel was used, thus killing the warranty.

4) In an overall $$$ scenario, through the life cycle of a car, it is much more practical to own one specified to use regular unleaded than one that runs premium unleaded.

Now, as to your premise of being in a "pinch" and needing to use regular unleaded in a car specified to use premium; well, I don't understand how that is even possible when the same gasoline pump in most stations allow you to select regular, premium or some in between grade.

Okay, yes, one may not have the cash to fill up their car with premium, and in order to get a full tank, could have to resort to regular unleaded, but in that case, just fill up half the tank with premium with the money one has to begin with, and not risk damaging the engine.

If in the least, that's how a lawyer from one of these car companies might argue it when an owner's engine has a meltdown because they used a lesser-grade gasoline they was not recommended in the user's manual. :crap:

[goonster]

Now, as to your premise of being in a "pinch" and needing to use regular unleaded in a car specified to use premium; well, I don't understand how that is even possible
You are out of gas, in the middle of nowhere, and the only gas station around is out of high-octane. I've seen this happen, so it's not purely hypothetical.

[dd74]

You are out of gas, in the middle of nowhere, and the only gas station around is out of high-octane. I've seen this happen, so it's not purely hypothetical.
Jeez! Well, I better get out to the middle of nowhere more often. :D

[AngryScientist]

Say the OP purchases a Mazdaspeed 3, a Subaru WRX Sti, or a VW GTI.



just for the record, i drove a new gti with the super efficient 2.0T for 4 years and 95,000 miles. i logged every single tank of gas, overall mpg was 32.4. i drive a majority of highway commute. that's excellent mpg's for a car of that caliber.

[fourflys]

Well, yes, they are. And many auto publications have stated so because of the higher price of premium over regular.

Say the OP purchases a Mazdaspeed 3, a Subaru WRX Sti, or a VW GTI.

<snip>

If in the least, that's how a lawyer from one of these car companies might argue it when an owner's engine has a meltdown because they used a lesser-grade gasoline they was not recommended in the user's manual. :crap:

as I pointed out earlier, we're talking about a maximum of $4 PER TANK over regular (unless you have a huge tank)... since most of the people reading this has multiple bikes worth multiple thousands of dollars, is $4 really going to kill the purchase of a car if THAT's the only issue?

and most modern cars that require premium have a knock sensor that retards the timing to account for the lower octane so you don't ruin your engine... (although I've never ran regular in my MB, I don't think I'd worry about it much...) BTW- I just filled my car up and paid $3.97 per gallon.... and that was at the "cheap" place... ouch!

[fourflys]

just for the record, i drove a new gti with the super efficient 2.0T for 4 years and 95,000 miles. i logged every single tank of gas, overall mpg was 32.4. i drive a majority of highway commute. that's excellent mpg's for a car of that caliber.


awesome, I love those and should have bought one instead of the C230... :crap:

[Dlevy05]

Just get a Chevy Volt and be done with it....





Having said that, I think you'd be bored going from a WRX to anything less sporty or engaging. You spend so many hours of your life inside of a car, you might as well be entertained. The BMW's with 3 liter straight sixes are great. They're torquey, agile, and reliable. (330i or 330xi (AWD), 530, X5 3.0, Z3 coupe 3.0) they get the same mileage (more or less) as their big brothers with the V8's, but maintenance is easier on the wallet. If I was in your shoes I'd take a gander at the 530i wagon. It has function, utility, luxury, and with a manual transmission (and a sport package, if you can find one) it'll be a fun car to drive.

[fourflys]

Just get a Chevy Volt and be done with it....





Having said that, I think you'd be bored going from a WRX to anything less sporty or engaging. You spend so many hours of your life inside of a car, you might as well be entertained. The BMW's with 3 liter straight sixes are great. They're torquey, agile, and reliable. (330i or 330xi (AWD), 530, X5 3.0, Z3 coupe 3.0) they get the same mileage (more or less) as their big brothers with the V8's, but maintenance is easier on the wallet. If I was in your shoes I'd take a gander at the 530i wagon. It has function, utility, luxury, and with a manual transmission (and a sport package, if you can find one) it'll be a fun car to drive.

just have a good saving account when something goes wrong...

says the guy with a different German sports sedan...

[Dlevy05]

just have a good saving account when something goes wrong...

says the guy with a different German sports sedan...


Agreed, repairs can be pricey, but finding the right car means finding the right seller. If you can track down someone who has used their vehicle gingerly, you'll most likely be getting a good car.

My folks used to have a 98 (or 97) 740il, and before some idiot smashed into it, it was a very reliable car, with almost 150k miles on the clock.

[pjm]

they get the same mileage (more or less) as their big brothers with the V8's
Huh?? My 328i gets about 25mpg, 50/50 hwy/city, every tank, and easily over 30 all highway. Show me a V8 powered Bimmer that can do that.

[Dlevy05]

Huh?? My 328i gets about 25mpg, 50/50 hwy/city, every tank, and easily over 30 all highway. Show me a V8 powered Bimmer that can do that.


No, what I meant was that of all the BMW's with v8's and v6's sharing the same platform, the gas milage doesn't vary greatly. I'm specifically talking about the x5, 5 series and 7 series... this is because the smaller engine has to work much harder to pull the weight of the car, whereas the larger one does it with greater ease. The same is true for the V6 and V8 touaregs and cayennes.

[csm]

You are out of gas, in the middle of nowhere, and the only gas station around is out of high-octane. I've seen this happen, so it's not purely hypothetical.

I had this happen in CT with my sti a couple years ago. I filled up with what they had and ran it through. next fill-up was back to premium. didn't seem to hurt anything.

[dd74]

as I pointed out earlier, we're talking about a maximum of $4 PER TANK over regular (unless you have a huge tank)... since most of the people reading this has multiple bikes worth multiple thousands of dollars, is $4 really going to kill the purchase of a car if THAT's the only issue?
That depends on one's priorities. I'm certain there are some out there who'd rather have one more nice bike than a car whose performance level could never be obtained in urban city driving, yet would still need to operate on performance gasoline. In turn, all that wasted money between regular and premium could go to another nice bicycle.

and most modern cars that require premium have a knock sensor that retards the timing to account for the lower octane so you don't ruin your engine... (although I've never ran regular in my MB, I don't think I'd worry about it much...)
Honestly, it's up to you if you want to challenge the engineers who built your car and what they say it should be fueled with. For the cost of a Mercedes, I'd rather not chance it.

BTW- I just filled my car up and paid $3.97 per gallon.... and that was at the "cheap" place... ouch!
Yup. It sucks. Still less than Europe, though.

[Jeff N.]

I love my Toyota Matrix-S.

[deechee]

I've owned multiple Civics and Corollas over the years and live in Montreal where we get a lot of snow and I have maybe gotten stuck twice in 13 years of driving? They're perfectly capable in snow and hills with proper winter tires. Right now I'm riding Nokian Hakkapelitta R's, and they're amazing.

Also, my gf and I have been stuffing our bikes into the backseat and trunk for a long time. I haven't needed an expensive trunk/hitch/roof rack in years. Not to mention the gas hit you take when you put your bikes outside of the car.

Note: after Louis' post, yeah I forgot, I'm a midget. My gf and I stuff our 52 & 50cm frames compactly. But with the seats folded down in the '91 hatch, we put a full medium sized mtn bike, front tire too inside a few times. (Pointing the front wheel upwards, parallel to the rear window.)

The opening in the 2010 corolla between the trunk and back seat is pretty generous. The opening wasn't so great in my '03 civic from what I remember. Personally I don't find stuffing the bikes so painful, but the bikes are usually very clean.

[Louis]

deechee,

Would a 60cm bike (with front wheel removed) fit in the back of a 2-dr Civic with the rear seats down? How painful of an operation would it be to put it in and remove it?

TIA
Louis

[Ken Robb]

deechee,

Would a 60cm bike (with front wheel removed) fit in the back of a 2-dr Civic with the rear seats down? How painful of an operation would it be to put it in and remove it?

TIA
Louis
That's hard to say because, to some extent, whether a bike fits in a car depends on the handle bar and seat height as much as the frame size.

[dd74]

In some cars with trunks (sedans), the rear seats fold down so that there's more room from the trunk area forward. I think it's an option with BMWs though I haven't seen it on the BMW website. I wonder if it is an option with the Honda Civic four-door. Those are cool little cars.

[fourflys]

In some cars with trunks (sedans), the rear seats fold down so that there's more room from the trunk area forward. I think it's an option with BMWs though I haven't seen it on the BMW website. I wonder if it is an option with the Honda Civic four-door. Those are cool little cars.

my C230 is like this... the seat bottoms fold up towards the front as well...

although I just use a rooftop rack...

[dd74]

my C230 is like this... the seat bottoms fold up towards the front as well...

although I just use a rooftop rack...
Is yours a sedan or hatchback? I had a sedan as a service department loner, and was quite impressed. This was a C300, though. Thing had more than enough power, but trying to find a six-speed manual is nearly impossible. And forget about diesel, though every mechanic and service rep was chomping at the bit for anything diesel that might come from M-B.

My favorite M-B, sadly, isn't offered in the states: a B-series turbo diesel. :crap:

[fourflys]

Is yours a sedan or hatchback? I had a sedan as a service department loner, and was quite impressed. This was a C300, though. Thing had more than enough power, but trying to find a six-speed manual is nearly impossible. And forget about diesel, though every mechanic and service rep was chomping at the bit for anything diesel that might come from M-B.

My favorite M-B, sadly, isn't offered in the states: a B-series turbo diesel. :crap:

I have the sedan... and yes, the C300 are very nice, a bit more powerful than mine...

[rice rocket]

If you enjoy the driver feedback (steering and brake feel) of the WRX (good car in these areas), you might find the Honda and particularly the Toyota products less engaging. A similarly Japanese option, that also gives you the option of a hatch for easy bike loading, is the Mazda 3. It also depreciates more than the Honda and Toyota.

I'm late to this thread, but the WRX brake feel is absolute garbage, as is the case on all Subarus. Overboosted, undersized master cylinders, etc etc. Subaru has never got it right. Same with their box-of-rocks transmissions made from tissue paper.

That said, keep the WRX. I'd own a Subaru as a daily driver anyday. They're incredibly easy to work on and go together like legos. Engine can be pulled in under 30 minutes (20 of those minutes will be wondering why the hell Subaru changed to quick disconnects on the fuel lines). Headgasket shouldn't fail on the '04 EJ205. Might want a bushing overhaul if things are getting mushy. Your wheel bearings will probably fail in a little bit, but they don't fail catastrophically and they're not super expensive. If you want more ground clearance, (a) put bigger tires on it, or (b) buy someone's used Forester suspension and slap it on (5 bolts on each corner...just have some PB Blaster ready).

[dd74]

Screw it all and just get a new Mustang GT. Cheap, reasonable mpg. and performance that BMW M3s can appreciate. ;)

[djg]

The more I continue my search for a new car the more frustrated I get.

I'll soon be at 220,000 miles. I guess I'll just keep driving what I have now. A new clutch is a lot less than an entirely new car.

Well, there's nothing wrong with that. It's almost always less expensive to keep going than it is to buy a new one. OTOH, if a car has multiple pending problems AND needs a new clutch . . . there are times when it makes sense to think of moving on (and I don't know if you're there yet).

If you're flipping, I kind of like the way carmax does business on relatively recent used vehicles. You have 5 days to drive the vehicle and have it checked out independently -- they'll cut you a full refund up to that point. They don't give away the extended warranties but they don't charge an arm and a leg either. Whether you're looking for a 328 or a volvo wagon or an accord or whatever, they tend to have a pretty good stock of vehicles and, if they don't have what you like, you can just wait a bit -- rotation is pretty good. (Nope, don't own stock -- unless indirectly and unknowingly, through one of my mutual funds -- and I don't work there.) There's nothing wrong with a grail-search on this if that's what you want to do, but if you don't . . . well, it's easy to over-think this. Reliability data are available, you can cross off a few things that really don't do what you are keen to have a vehicle do, focus on a few things that seem to fit the bill and, ultimately, let your gut guide you between the things that are perfectly good remaining choices. You can do that next week or next year -- whatever suits you.

[dancinkozmo]

...i would just pick something off the "car guys top ten cars we hate the most list"

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&story=cartalk-cars-we-hate&subject=more

[rice rocket]

Screw it all and just get a new Mustang GT. Cheap, reasonable mpg. and performance that BMW M3s can appreciate. ;)
Going from a wagon to a 2 door coupe would be a shock, but if you find the GT impressive, look at the V6.

31 mpg, 300 bhp, oh, and it's only $20k. It beat the pants off your lastest crop of sport compacts on an open track test, while being limited to 114 mph. It was on the speed limiter for more than 15 seconds per lap according to their video.

http://i.imgur.com/uZ0Qv.jpg

[dancinkozmo]

...ha ! vette is 3rd ...awesome !!

[Louis]

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the CarMax idea. I'll have to check it out.

As far as my car goes, it doesn't really need a clutch, I just used that as an example of what could go wrong if I decide to keep it another year. I assume that eventually the muffler, the brake rotors and the clutch will have to be replaced, I just don't know when.

Well, there's nothing wrong with that. It's almost always less expensive to keep going than it is to buy a new one. OTOH, if a car has multiple pending problems AND needs a new clutch . . . there are times when it makes sense to think of moving on (and I don't know if you're there yet).