is honesty the best policy?

[Climb01742]

the thread over in the gallery section got me thinking. (watch out, this process often goes terribly wrong.)

do we want, here on the forum, a truly open, honest exchange of ideas and opinions? a valid case can, i think, be made for both sides. so i'm curious which side the majority of folks favor?

do we want no-holds-barred honesty...as long as it's expressed with civility and respect? or be honest up to a point...with more emphasis on being polite and considering the feelings of others?

being civil and being decorous are two different things. both have their place. which has more of a place here? i get the sense that people bite their tongues here a lot, not wanting to offend. i guess i'm not sure that's an entirely good thing on a forum.

what's your take...you ignorant slut? :rolleyes: :p ;) :D *









*with apologies to jane curtain + dan ackroyd. ps: thanks for the link, richie.

[William]

the thread over in the gallery section got me thinking. (watch out, this process often goes terribly wrong.)

do we want, here on the forum, a truly open, honest exchange of ideas and opinions? a valid case can, i think, be made for both sides. so i'm curious which side the majority of folks favor?

do we want no-holds-barred honesty...as long as it's expressed with civility and respect? or be honest up to a point...with more emphasis on being polite and considering the feelings of others?

being civil and being decorous are two different things. both have their place. which has more of a place here? i get the sense that people bite their tongues here a lot, not wanting to offend. i guess i'm not sure that's an entirely good thing on a forum.

what's your take...you ignorant slut? :rolleyes: :p ;) :D *









*with apologies to jane curtain + dan ackroyd. ps: thanks for the link, richie.

I think you can be civil while being honest. The problem with being "brutally" honest is that the internet is not always the best medium for conveying meaning and intent. People get taken the wrong way all the time. Plus, different things P.O. different people. "No-holds-barred honesty" has a tendency to turn into a bi-tch fest with as many people that are members of a forum like this.
I think that one should be honest and express their feelings about opinions and discussion content. If it starts crossing over into personality traits or sense of humor...or lack of, one should just ignore the folks that rub them the wrong way. Point being, don't let it get personal unless your personally attacked. IMHO, those are the areas that tend to blow a forum apart.

Just my $.02 worth,

William

[e-RICHIE]

the thread over in the gallery section got me thinking. - snipped - what's your take...you ignorant slut? :rolleyes: :p ;) :D *
*with apologies to jane curtain + dan ackroyd. ps: thanks for the link, richie.

Climb-O
which thread?

[Big Dan]

Most people are not honest in the gallery section of this board.
Wouldn't want to be a heartbreaker... :eek:

[Hard Fit]

I think it is okay to talk about generalities on the "General Discussion" board, but be circumspect when talking about a particular person's bike in the "Gallery".

[dave thompson]

About no one in particular; some folks bikes may be like the ugly girl friend that cooks really well. You say how great everything tastes.

I know I've put some 'not pretty' bike pics here and on the BikeFanClub galleries. I didn't mind at all when someone would ask 'Why did your use that stem/seat/handlebar?' I had my reasons, at least at that time for choosing the way I did. Then there was the comment made "It may be a great bike, but it does not look like a great bike". Sure, another's opinion, but man, that hurt!

I'm not sure if it is a good thing to be even a little critical of someone's choice in aesthetics. We all see the same things differently.

[coylifut]

when dealing with hyper sensitive people, withholding comment is the best policy.

[keno]

I tried to slog my way through the gallery thread. I simply could not do it. It held no interest for me beyond the pictures of the bike. As I remember, in the good old days we simply posted pictures and did not start a thread by doing it. I liked it far better that way. I also think that the classified section should simply be classified ads, and anyone interested should communicate directly through email or PM with the advertiser.

climb, my answer to your question, though not by selecting from the choices you gave, is that the forum should be modified in two ways:

1. The Gallery should provide solely for photos and not threads or comments. If someone feels so strongly about commenting then they should start a thread in the General Discussion area.

2. The Classified section should contain solely advertisements and contact information, whether by email, PM or otherwise. If someone feels so strongly about commenting then they should start a thread in the General Discussion area.

keno

[flydhest]

I don't think keno is telling the truth.

[jeffhall]

My position is, as stated before, gallery is a place of "pride in ownership", general discussion is a place for "honest exchange and advise", classified is a place for "this piece of crap needs to go".

It's like one viewer stated, "no one wants to post there pride and joy, a $6,000 ride and then hear that it is all wrong!". Taste in bikes and bike set-up are as different as taste in ice cream! Hey been to Baskin-Robbins 2 flavors lately?

Next bike, if it's a custom built, I will ask for fit advise here, BUT (and this is a BIG BUT) still do what feels best and makes sense!

Honesty is a good idea but adults usually use some discreation. Little kids just blurp out whats on there little minds.

[eddief]

from someone who pushes the limits.

In the gallery all critiques should be worded as if coming from Columbo: "I was just curious about some of the design criteria used in building your bike...might you not share with the rest of the forum whether or not you and the designer considered ...?

Really, I know I have been harshly honest and it seems folks are more willing to share if they are not beaten over the head, but rather a request is made for more info. That may still cause them to think -- wow I just spent $8k on this bike and now I'm not so sure I got it right. That just means on their next bike that they will know more about design and have the opportunity to make some different, perhaps more informed, choices.

On the other hand, they may be girlie-men, and throw a fit because they believe words are sticks and stones.

Or maybe some who read the forum will learn something from our very civil dialogue and we can, in our own way, contribute something positive to the world of cycling.

[keno]

meets fly and keno on the road. He needs directions to Saratoga Springs. One of fly and keno always tells the truth and the other always lies, but the traveler does not know who lies and who tells the truth. What is the question he can ask of either that will successfully answer his request for directions?

Answer to be revealed in a later post, or not.

keno

[jeffhall]

you would ask them, very simply, "do you know how to get to .....?" The liar would say no, the one that tells the truth would say yes and then ask him for details on how you do get there.

[keno]

I might have said "one question" instead of "the question", but one is all you get...or not.

keno

[Climb01742]

Climb-O
which thread?

richie, the gallery thread entitled "my new ottrott--FINISHED" by jeffhall.

[Climb01742]

one option might be to add to the gallery section a box the original poster can check or not check. the box might say, "comments welcome". folks are different. some folks want comments, good or bad. and some don't. either is cool. maybe give people a choice and a way to signal if comments would be appreciated or not.

[92degrees]

one option might be to add to the gallery section a box the original poster can check or not check. the box might say, "comments welcome". folks are different. some folks want comments, good or bad. and some don't. either is cool. maybe give people a choice and a way to signal if comments would be appreciated or not.


I guess.

My wife is getting her hair cut today. Before I go home tonight I will make sure to have asked her on the phone "How's your haircut?"

If she says she thinks it looks good, then I will go home and say "Nice haircut!"

If she says she hates it (what are the chances!) I will go home and say "I think it looks good."

If she wanted my honest opinion, she would tell me what she intended to have done beforehand and then ask me what I thought. Later she would ask if it turned out like I pictured.

What's my point? Oh yeah -- if you are ordering a frame and want opinions because aesthetics are a concern, why not ask before you sign off on the sheet? Once the bike is in the Gallery it’s a little late for geometry suggestions. It’s never too late to consider bar tape or a different stem or whatever, so that’s a bit different IMO.

Still, by the time you’ve signed-off on the frame, I would hope that you’ve done everything possible to be certain that you are getting exactly what you want/need. By the time you’re posting pics of a finished bike does a critical post from someone you’ve never met really diminish the joy of your bike? Not for me.

If the sun ever shines again I’ll post updated pics of my bike. All comments welcome.

[flydhest]

Steve,

My modification of your strategy is, "you don't like your hair? I think it looks really good . . . or, hold on a second, did you lose weight?"

Score points and change the topic away from the hair.

[92degrees]

Steve,

My modification of your strategy is, "you don't like your hair? I think it looks really good . . . or, hold on a second, did you lose weight?"

Score points and change the topic away from the hair.



Ooh. Thanks! I may tweak that and say:

"What's not to like about that haircut -- it makes you look YOUNGER and THINNER!" :banana:

[Ginger]

Are you implying she looked old and fat *before* the haircut?

(Just being helpful and pointing out the pitfall before you leap into it...)

On the gallery:
My mama always told me: If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

[92degrees]

Are you implying she looked old and fat *before* the haircut?

(Just being helpful and pointing out the pitfall before you leap into it...)

On the gallery:
My mama always told me: If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

DOH! Thanks.

"What's not to like about that haircut -- it makes you look EVEN younger and thinner!"

[djg]

and comes up feeling empty.

Can't we all just get along ... by using a little sense and a little consideration? Generally speaking, it is not dishonest to refrain from blurting out every thought that pops into your head. That's because, among other things, no reasonable adult speaker of our language expects, in typical discourse, that another adult would do such a thing. Hence, failing to spew is not a failure to deliver expected, much less promised, information. It is not a crafted deception. It's just how folks talk (and don't talk).

I would hesitate to suggest, in reaction to a gallery posting, that someone may be on the wrong bike. I might lose that hesitation in the face of certain questions by the poster, but my default would be to keep such thoughts to myself. At the same time, it seems to me that if the Ottrot thread in question is the most heated and testy disagreement we have, then we're doing just fine. Someday I will post a picture of a 49 cm track frame with an 18 cm stem and the jerk will post that the stem is too short. And, if I'm lucky, DBRK will suggest I might really enjoy riding in a Citroen instead. I'll be o.k. Reassured, even.

General discussion is general discussion. It ought to be susceptible to some back and forth without falling apart. Mostly, I think this forum does darn well in that regard. If the occasional long, drawn-out, tortured discussion of feelings and expectations and boundaries is needed to keep the peace, that may be o.k. too.

There. I feel better now.

Cheers to all.

[eddief]

of interpretation. For instance there's nice as interpreted and being forced down our throats by the likes of George Bush and Co. Then there's the grown up version that would suggest adults can handle what they want to handle and turn it off if they don't want to watch. I'll take the grown up version every time.

[Ginger]

Well....my other thought on the matter is...hey guys, this is the internet. If you post pictures in a venue that invites them you're going to get responses to the pictures. Some will agree with the picture, some will disagree. And some will just seem inane and other will seem nasty. You put the picture up, you invited the discourse. You shouldn't be terribly upset when someone doesn't like what you've shown them and lets you know about it.

Nature of the beast.



92degrees....much better. ;)

[flydhest]

Steve,

MaryAnn is right, you gotta be careful with these things. It's like cold fusion--it has the power to create and the power to destroy.

Don't ever, ever go for the age thing with your own wife. You've known her for X years. If you talk about younger, then you're comparing her to what she looked like when you first met her . . . ix-nay. The only time when that's acceptable is the, "I can't believe what a lucky guy I am. You keep getting more and more beautiful. And to think, I thought you were amazing when I first met you." You have to add the second part.

[Ginger]

Smooth fly...but that's why all the girls like you.

:banana:

[flydhest]

. . . stop, you're making me blush.

and, my banana is dancing. :banana:






. . . ooops, that was less smooth.

[Climb01742]

Well....my other thought on the matter is...hey guys, this is the internet. If you post pictures in a venue that invites them you're going to get responses to the pictures. Some will agree with the picture, some will disagree. And some will just seem inane and other will seem nasty. You put the picture up, you invited the discourse. You shouldn't be terribly upset when someone doesn't like what you've shown them and lets you know about it.

Nature of the beast.


that's my take. to post is to invite discussion. like going to speaker's corner in hyde park in london and being surprised you get into a debate.

i guess i'd take civil discourse over bland, and often hollow, compliments.

ps: i tell s.o. climb my honest opinion all the time on her hair and clothes. and she is honest with me on stuff too. sure, it stings sometime, but then i know that what comes out of our mouths -- at good moments and bad -- is always true and heartfelt. i'll take that trade-off. but that's me.

[christian]

I've always thought that the gallery was basically the Hot-or-Not.com of the bike world. If I wanted slavish devotion to my bike aesthetics, I could just wheel it down to the LBS where they're trying to sell me some Topolinos! :)

- Christian

[Steve800]

richie, the gallery thread entitled "my new ottrott--FINISHED" by jeffhall.

Links to the corresponding threads:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=8596
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=8657

[Ken Lehner]

meets fly and keno on the road. He needs directions to Saratoga Springs. One of fly and keno always tells the truth and the other always lies, but the traveler does not know who lies and who tells the truth. What is the question he can ask of either that will successfully answer his request for directions?

Answer to be revealed in a later post, or not.

keno

The "lady and the tiger" scenario only works for questions whose answers have a negative. Directions to a location don't have a negative. If fly and keno were at a cross-roads, and the traveler wants to know which road to take, then the traveler could ask one of fly and keno "what would <the other of fly and keno> say is the correct road to take?", and then do the opposite.

[JohnS]

Ever since I've been on this forum, I've had it driven into my head that fit is the most important part of equation for a good bike. It is more important than material, components,and everything else. So when someone buys a high-zoot frame that doesn't fit their admittedly "different" physique, I wonder why. Especially when they have add and rotate components to make it fit. Wouldn't a lower-level frame that fit be better? So when a rspected member of the forum (not Roy, BD, or myself :) ) asks them why they did it the way they did, what's the big deal?

[terry b]

Having read that entire thread (thanks for the recommended morning entertainment) I'd have to say "no," honesty is not always the best policy.

For me, comments in the Gallery fall under the eternal guideline of "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say it" with the internet forum rider of "if you cannot convey the nice thing in the most unambiguous manner, don't even consider writing it."

I agree with your original comment, and I was even pretty shocked at how incredibly self-effacing you were in asking the question. But, look what it got you. Based on that, this question is essentially answered, a priori.

No one wants to hear even the most subtle implication that they've made a bad choice. Why would they?

And in that, the Gallery is quite different than the Forum. In the Forum, where one is not quite as invested in what they're saying (or showing), sure - honesty can fly. Unfortunately we still have those that confuse honesty with kicking people's teeth in via insults and insinuations. Which brings us around to the real point - it's the internet, everyone is unleashed by the lack of the real possibility of getting their head punched in so if you're going to play, be prepared to pay.

This forum though I think has a sense of community that attempts to overcome that basic fact. As a lurker, it's very entertaining to watch the core members try to hold it together. I will say I'm impressed that it often works.

[bcm119]

Good question Climb. I don't really know. At first glance it didn't seem to do anyone any good that you asked your honest question in that Gallery thread; however, it provided many people with a good 30 minutes of reading, and JeffHall ended up learning what 'french fit' is straight from the horse's mouth. And that big softie the Jerk chimed in with a warm and fuzzy comment too. So maybe it was worthwhile...I think you proved your point...that if we all just blow sunshine up each others a$ses we won't learn anything.

And in the end, when he's out on the road, I doubt JeffHall or anyone else is really going to give a damn what a bunch of internet geeks said about his bike. :)

[Len J]

Asking about design criteria,.......why the poster and his fitter selected to do it a certain way.........is more than OK. Where I think people cross the line is when they are clearly pointing out their own presonal dislike for a particular selection someone has made. As an example, I personally don't like more than 15 mm of spacers, but I'm not going to like that on any bike, and I don't think anyone could change my personal dislike of that. I don't mention that when someone posts a picture of an otherwise gorgeous bike, with 25 mm of spacers......why mention it? If it's to make me feel better about what I like, I don't bother.

Everyone knows the Jerk doesn't like short riser stems on racing bikes.........If someone posts a picture of their new bike and it has a short riser stem, no purpose would be served by Jerk menttioning (again) his dislike of this on a racing bike.

My .02

Len

[Sandy]

Several years ago, I was introduced to Kevan. I looked at him, and said very honestly, that "you are the ugliest and weirdest looking mutant misfit that I have ever seen." Kevan gazed lovingly into my eyes, and said "that is the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me."

He has been stalking me ever since. Obviously, honesty is NOT the best policy. :)


So Sad Sandy

[Kevan]

anyone with regular balanced features would of course appear aberrant.

As for following him, he's right. I'm on special assignment, working with the National Geographic, and we have him radio collared.

[keno]

nicely done, but I suspect that you and I may constitute the entire interested audience. Do you think that anyone would be interested in the Monty Hall Problem if a new, properly fitted and aethetically pleasing Ottrott were behind one of the doors not hiding, say, a old goat or non-repairable tire tube?

keno