Lowest "usable" gear inches?

[rice rocket]

Trying to decide whether my g/f needs a triple or a compact double. A Sora triple is 50/39/30, a compact double is 50/34. She's a novice on a cross/commuter bike.

I put a 11-34 cassette on the rear. 30/34 gearing would be 23.2 gear inches, 34/34 is 26.3 gear inches.

Granted, there are a few 30%+ grade hills here, but is 23.2 inches even usable? I feel like there wouldn't be enough forward momentum to stabilize the bike up a steep hill. ;)

[Black Dog]

30%...you need a rope and harness not a bike! :)

[Louis]

How long are the 20%+ grades?

If they are very short, then it's probably not worth it. If they are more than just a "stand and power over this" then I can tell you from personal experience that 30 front and 34 rear is perfectly usable. Obviously it only works on a very steep hill, because otherwise you're spinning like a fool, not going anywhere, but if it's steep enough you can use it. Come over to my place and I'll show you some spots where it will come in handy.

[bicycletricycle]

i have personally used a 24/34 riding up some super steep 25% + sections.

[Louis]

i have personally used a 24/34 riding up some super steep 25% + sections.

28F/34R is the lowest I've used, but I can believe that if it's steep enough and you have decent balance and steering skills, 24/34 is doable.

[oliver1850]

.

[Ray]

Its not about forward momentum so much as when does it get slower than walking the bike? I've found on decent pavement (where the effort doesn't go into maintaining traction and just staying upright) I can pedal some REALLY low gears. The lowest I think I've used was a 22x34. I've never needed it quite THAT low on an unloaded bike, but have on a loaded touring bike. The lowest I've wanted to use on an unloaded bike was about 24x30 which I can definitely pedal fast enough to stay upright and go faster than a walking pace. The 22x34 wasn't necessary without a load, but was rideable on a super steep. It wouldn't be faster or easier than walking the bike ordinarily, but with a loaded touring bike, it was easier to use the gearing and ride. But I also had that gearing on a cross bike on a dirt road/trail tour and had trouble pedaling it at all on steep dirt. I was expending so much energy trying to maintain traction and balance that the pedaling was just silly. I finally got off and walked and was breezing past other folks who were still riding their mountain bikes in their lowest gears. This wasn't terribly technical riding, but the surface was bad enough and it was steep enough that walking was a good deal easier AND faster than riding. And less exhausting too.

I'd say you could go pretty low. MTB gearing is a pretty good guide...

-Ray

[Fixed]

where do you live ? ask a local .what are other people using?
cheers

[bumknees]

I've used 24/32 on a loaded touring bike. It's nice to have the lower gears, but I don't think something this low is needed for unloaded riding

[Charles M]

CONTEXT...


Suggesting what you use is different than talking about the applicable gearing for novice on commuter.

I would guess she gets better, but the ballance and cadence needed to turn combo's near or lower than 1 to 1 (for any reasonable time) isnt typical for darn near anyone on the road.

I would guess topping out at 28 or 30 would be better for a 34 front and that would be for lots of levels of rider.

[rice rocket]

How long are the 20%+ grades?

If they are very short, then it's probably not worth it. If they are more than just a "stand and power over this" then I can tell you from personal experience that 30 front and 34 rear is perfectly usable. Obviously it only works on a very steep hill, because otherwise you're spinning like a fool, not going anywhere, but if it's steep enough you can use it. Come over to my place and I'll show you some spots where it will come in handy.

I'm in Pittsburgh. There's probably some 25%+ sustained for a mile or so, and some even steeper but for a lot shorter, but I doubt she'd be willing to follow me on those climbs. Unfortunately, I live on top of a big hill, and access to the bike trail is down (and then up) about 200 ft @ a 10% grade.

She's petite though (5'1, 100 lbs), asking her to power over hills is asking a lot. ;)


I just checked some mountain offerings, 22T front. Sheesh. I guess I'll go with the 30 (triple) for now. Thanks for the input.

[RPS]

IMO a 30/34 low gear isn’t all that low when faced with a sustained 25+ percent grade for most riders regardless of experience. At 50 RPM cadence it yields about 3.5 MPH, which would take a fairly fit person to maintain. And it’s not like 50 RPM is all that high either.

[beungood]

The extra low gearing and the variety might be the differance in finishing a long challenging ride..

[Ralph]

I'm an old guy (69) and living in flat to rolling hilly country. However, we do have some short very steep hills out in orange grove country. (they don't want to use up any land for curves). I can power up these short steep hills OK on a 39-26 or 39-29.

But when I take my bike to the mountains, or where the hills are steep for a sustained period, I need gears. It's not so much the steepness that gets me, it's the mile after mile of climbing that gets me (along with altitude change). I need at least a 1-1 F/R ratio....however you want to get it. Usually I use a 13-29 and a 28-40-50 Campy triple. Been thinking about mounting a 26. No downside and maybe make life easier. However....keep in mind, those small alloy rings wear fast. Maybe steel better. My opinion.

[Ken Robb]

walking up isn't a good option if the rider is wearing "real cycling" shoes with carbon soles and metal cleats hitting the ground.

[Ahneida Ride]

I might win the award for the lowest gear inches ..
I have Zephyr TA Triple 48/36/22 with a 13-29 Campy Cassette.

22/29 = 20.5 gear inches ..

I have several 18 deg hills near by.
if one can spin 20 gear inches one can climb at 5 MPH ...
which is darn good for a massively steep hill.

I can replace the 22 ring with a 20 and will do so if anyone claims
lower gear inches ! :rolleyes:

I simply can't place any pressure on my Knees, hence the low gears.

[rice rocket]

I might win the award for the lowest gear inches ..
I have Zephyr TA Triple 48/36/22 with a 13-29 Campy Cassette.

22/29 = 20.5 gear inches ..

I have several 18 deg hills near by.
if one can spin 20 gear inches one can climb at 5 MPH ...
which is darn good for a massively steep hill.

I can replace the 22 ring with a 20 and will do so if anyone claims
lower gear inches ! :rolleyes:

I simply can't place any pressure on my Knees, hence the low gears.
What front derailleur are you using that has a 26T capacity? I have a DA7800 FD that I got locally for cheap, but Shimano only lists it as capable of handling a 22T difference.

[Ahneida Ride]

What front derailleur are you using that has a 26T capacity? I have a DA7800 FD that I got locally for cheap, but Shimano only lists it as capable of handling a 22T difference.

FD = 2002 Campy Record Triple ..... works exceeding well.
RD = 2002 Campy Record Triple ..... 22/13 works as well as 48/29

[torquer]

One more data point to consider: over at the Mt. Washington Hillclimb forum, the common wisdom is that you need at least a 1:1 setup if you're a mere mortal. Now that's for more than an hour of grueling climbing (under an hour if you're really good) with intermittent 20% plus stretches and sketchy road surfaces. But no novice is doing this hillclimb, either, so 30 front/34 rear doesn't sound crazy, especially as a bailout gear.

On the other hand, how often are these extreme gears going to be called on? There's something to be said for the relative simplicity of a compact double, maybe even moreso for a novice.

[Ahneida Ride]

My LBS guru (Rick Trainer, Mtn. Cycology Ludlow, Vt.)
used to hold the Master's record for Mt. Washington Climb.

He ran 1-1 ... and started slow ... everyone passed him at first.

Rick is an exceeding strong rider and climber.
Rick also rides a Triple.
Some members of the Phorum here know Rick. They know.

[Ahneida Ride]

The problem with many compact Doubles is that the gears are not low enough.

Toward the end of the season, I can pass (on hills) far superior riders,
just because of my gearing.

It's really all about gear inches .... not Double vs. Triple
Figure out what gear inches are appropriate and build that drive-train.

[Mark McM]

If you want to continue riding with your girlfriend and keep her from getting mad at you because "riding is too hard", then it might be good to remember the old maxim:

It's better to have a lower gear and not need it than it is to need a lower gear and not have it.


Some 10spd MTBs are now coming with 22/36 low gears. Even with a gear this low, it is still faster to keep pedaling the bike than it is to walk it up a hill.

[dave thompson]

If you want to continue riding with your girlfriend and keep her from getting mad at you because "riding is too hard", then it might be good to remember the old maxim:

It's better to have a lower gear and not need it than it is to need a lower gear and not have it.


Some 10spd MTBs are now coming with 22/36 low gears. Even with a gear this low, it is still faster to keep pedaling the bike than it is to walk it up a hill.
Words to remember.

[Ahneida Ride]

Hey guys ..

I used to run a Sag Wagon with my van ..

Let me tell ya .... drop your woman and have me pick her up in the
sag wag ...

So I hear the female perspective ....

Well I'll stop there.... you should be able to figure it out.

[RPS]

Hey guys ..

I used to run a Sag Wagon with my van ..

Let me tell ya .... drop your woman and have me pick her up in the
sag wag ...

So I hear the female perspective ....

Well I'll stop there.... you should be able to figure it out.
That's why some very smart guy invented the tandem. Can't go wrong if you only learn to keep your mouth shut. :beer:

[sevencyclist]

I don't have ego issues, and would be happy to ride a 22/34 MTB gear on the road if that is what it takes to get up the hill.

If you are introducing cycling to your girlfriend, and she needs to walk, then you are choosing the wrong place to introduce her to cycling joy, or have the wrong equipment. Don't want to make the mistake of either.

Needs? Most likely not. There are some who would claim anything other than a singlespeed is too much. However, I wourld rather have the extra gears for small weight penalty.

As AR said, knee issues also interferes with ability to stand and hammer. I have learned that after my knee surgery, and would gladly look like a whimp rather than hurting my knee.

[Bob Ross]

I put a 11-34 cassette on the rear. 30/34 gearing would be 23.2 gear inches, 34/34 is 26.3 gear inches.

Granted, there are a few 30%+ grade hills here, but is 23.2 inches even usable? I feel like there wouldn't be enough forward momentum to stabilize the bike up a steep hill.

My old Trek 750 Hybrid had a 42-32-22 crankset and (I think) a 34 tooth large cog, and I never fell over from lack of momentum in the 22/34 combination.

Learned how to spin like a circus clown though.

[RPS]

Trying to decide whether my g/f needs a triple or a compact double. A Sora triple is 50/39/30, a compact double is 50/34. She's a novice on a cross/commuter bike.

I put a 11-34 cassette on the rear. 30/34 gearing would be 23.2 gear inches, 34/34 is 26.3 gear inches.

Granted, there are a few 30%+ grade hills here, but is 23.2 inches even usable? I feel like there wouldn't be enough forward momentum to stabilize the bike up a steep hill. ;)
FWIW, the lowest gearing I’ve ridden on roads was on my Cannondale tandem, which at the time was 26/28. Combined with a 25-inch OD tire it yielded the same 23.2 inch-gear you are looking at with the triple.

A while back on the second day of a ride between Houston and Austin we almost fell over at 4 MPH going up a steep but short climb inside Bastrop Park. Granted our legs were tired after doing a century the day before, but we were also younger, skinnier, and a lot stronger than today, and rode a lot more than most “novice” riders. On that particular day I would have paid for lower gears.

[Ahneida Ride]

go ahead ... call me a wussy ...

But the bottom line is that I cannot put pressure on my Knees ..
So I can't mash.

It is either spin in low gears or quit cycling.

As Clint said a man must know his limitations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VrFV5r8cs0

I know mine and my knees are in great shape.

[Ray]

Today I have low gears on one bike because I'm becoming a bit of a wimp, don't ride all that much or all that hard compared to what I used to, and I like the security blanket. But even 8-10 years ago when I was about as fit as I ever had been or will be, I still had 'em on one sport touring bike. And I'll never forget riding the Bon Ton Roulet tour in the Finger Lakes region. Out of a six or seven day tour, we had about two and a half really tough days with lots of steep climbs. I had a Rambouillet with a 24-36-48 in front and something like a 12-32 in back. And toward the ends of those really tough days, I was just spinning comfortably up some brutal hills and I was the envy of some MUCH stronger riders who were making it but fighting like hell, even with standard road triples, which they thought was pretty low. A low of 30x25 isn't very low after 60 miles of a bunch of 10-15% climbs for 2-3 days running. Being able to spin in a negative gear was a NICE thing, even in those days when I was doing 6000 mile years and was fit by any definition.

The difference now is I need 'em much sooner. Last summer I rode in Italy and for almost all of my riding, the middle ring was plenty low enough, but I did one 6-7 mile climb that was pretty unrelenting at 10-12% with a few steeper sections, and I spent looooong portions of that in my 24x26 and a few sections in the 24-30. I dropped into the 24-34 once and it was too low even for me, but I didn't mind having it there if I'd needed it. I have no pride when my legs die.

-Ray

[Frankwurst]

Go low. There's enough gears left if she doesn't like it. :beer:

[RPS]

Being able to spin in a negative gear was a NICE thing, even in those days when I was doing 6000 mile years and was fit by any definition.


Ray, for my benefit, could you please define “negative gear”? Is that like pedaling forward while rolling backwards down the hill? :rolleyes:

I suppose it means a ratio less than 1. But not being less than “0” I fail to see why that makes it negative. Do you know the origin of the term?

[Mark McM]

Ray, for my benefit, could you please define “negative gear”? Is that like pedaling forward while rolling backwards down the hill? :rolleyes:


Maybe he meant a Retro-Direct (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retro-Direct) gearing system, in which pedaling backwards drove you forward in a lower gear? I guess that would count as a "negative" gear :D

http://www.m-gineering.nl/retro5.jpg

[Pete Serotta]

Over the years this has been proved very accurate....Pete

IMO a 30/34 low gear isn’t all that low when faced with a sustained 25+ percent grade for most riders regardless of experience. At 50 RPM cadence it yields about 3.5 MPH, which would take a fairly fit person to maintain. And it’s not like 50 RPM is all that high either.

[Pete Serotta]

you have an option not to shift into it unless you need it. if you do not have it - you are bummed. I have been an advocate of triples for years but am in the minority today. In past years of ride the rockies and trips thru Vt to Montreal, I have used a triple. THe last time in VT with SMiley I have a compact BUT this year in Colorado I need everything and them some for I will still be on monthly chemo pills.... :crap: :crap: But Bill Davis is like a drill instructor and I will make it!


Go low. There's enough gears left if she doesn't like it. :beer:

[Ralph]

you have an option not to shift into it unless you need it. if you do not have it - you are bummed. I have been an advocate of triples for years but am in the minority today. In past years of ride the rockies and trips thru Vt to Montreal, I have used a triple. THe last time in VT with SMiley I have a compact BUT this year in Colorado I need everything and them some for I will still be on monthly chemo pills.... :crap: :crap: But Bill Davis is like a drill instructor and I will make it!


Good luck! Meds sure take it out of you. Altitude also. About 6 months ago, my Doc put me on some Alpha Blockers. It's like being governed to about 2/3 of normal strength. So I quit, will try to work it out with diet.

Been following your recovery. Hang in there. Don't over do it. Get out there early enough to acclimate to altitude if you can.

[Fixed]

if it is that steep walk it up
cheers

[torquer]

Maybe he meant a Retro-Direct (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retro-Direct) gearing system, in which pedaling backwards drove you forward in a lower gear? I guess that would count as a "negative" gear :D

http://www.m-gineering.nl/retro5.jpg
Forgive me, I was never one to to pick on the French (that whole freedom fries thing, etc.), but how did I just KNOW that this thing was invented by some guy named Pierre?

[Ray]

Ray, for my benefit, could you please define “negative gear”? Is that like pedaling forward while rolling backwards down the hill? :rolleyes:

I suppose it means a ratio less than 1. But not being less than “0” I fail to see why that makes it negative. Do you know the origin of the term?
Yeah, less than one. More than one pedal revolution for each wheel revolution.

You're just gonna have to live with me being imprecise by engineering standards! :D

-Ray

[Pete Serotta]

good advice for high altitude exercise. THANKS

Yes I have some friends that had the blockers in NJ....It was like a governor on a vehicle. They reached a point and then things were slowed down.


Good luck! Meds sure take it out of you. Altitude also. About 6 months ago, my Doc put me on some Alpha Blockers. It's like being governed to about 2/3 of normal strength. So I quit, will try to work it out with diet.

Been following your recovery. Hang in there. Don't over do it. Get out there early enough to acclimate to altitude if you can.

[RPS]

I have been an advocate of triples for years but am in the minority today.
Being in the majority is highly overrated. ;) I like triples too because of their closer ratios and intrinsic versatility.

Pete, hope you continue to do well towards a full recovery.

Rick

[RPS]

Yeah, less than one. More than one pedal revolution for each wheel revolution.

You're just gonna have to live with me being imprecise by engineering standards! :D

-Ray
Ray, how about “underdrive” in lieu of negative?

Borrowing from automotive terms, overdrive means when the output runs faster than the input. Similarly, “underdrive” has been used to describe specialty transmissions where the output runs slower than the input (it’s a given most auto lower gears typically fall in this category).

On a regular bike most gears would be considered overdrive by definition since the rear wheel runs faster than the cranks. Anything less than 1:1 could be considered an underdrive gear.

And borrowing further from automotive terms we could call the rare 1:1 combination “direct”. :beer:

[Ray]

Ray, how about “underdrive” in lieu of negative?

Borrowing from automotive terms, overdrive means when the output runs faster than the input. Similarly, “underdrive” has been used to describe specialty transmissions where the output runs slower than the input (it’s a given most auto lower gears typically fall in this category).

On a regular bike most gears would be considered overdrive by definition since the rear wheel runs faster than the cranks. Anything less than 1:1 could be considered an underdrive gear.

And borrowing further from automotive terms we could call the rare 1:1 combination “direct”. :beer:
I'm cool with those terms. Really, I am. I'm just totally unlikely to remember any of them the next time the topic comes up and I'm likely to use "negative" again. Just being honest here. I totally agree with your use of the language and pledge to do my best, but I know myself well enough to know what my best IS in situations like this. So the next time I say "negative" gearing, please understand I mean no offense (or even lack of precision)... ;)

-Ray