Climbo ... Mt. Washington update

[jeffg]

I know you have to ride in the rain tomorrow morning, but how is the training going otherwise? Perhaps I missed it in the "goals" thread, but what is your goal for the ride? My goals for this year are looking more and more theoretical, but it won't stop me from trying. I may be in for a rude awakening in 2 weeks on Mont Ventoux, so I'l keep you posted.

Back to you: I would imagine you are doing some good Vo2max work at this point (ah, the pain). Have you tried Ascutney? Working with a power meter? Inquring minds want to know ;)

[Johny]

Which bike is going to the top of Mt. Washington?
Z1? Ottrott-ST? CCKMP? or MX leader? :)

P.S. ADA or Lightweight wheels?

[Sandy]

When is Climb's climb of Mt. Washington?


Always at the bottom,


Sandy

[Sandy]

My guess of those 4 is the Z1. Personally, I would take a Z3 or Z4, as in BMW.

I think that I remember Climb saying that his new Ottrott was built for climbing, but then again I might be wrong. If I am correct, then it could be the Ottrott, but I will still stick with the Z1.

Neat question. I am also very intersted in knowing.


Still at the bottom,

Sandy

[Climb01742]

thanks, everyone, for being interested. i appreciated it.

training is going very well, inspite of the weather. ;) i can't say enough about the benefits of having a coach and a well thought out training plan. i can feel myself getting stronger and kudos for that go to kurt, adam and cyclesmart. i'm still in the base phase. with 3 months to go, this feels right. a great mix of longish intervals (15-20 minutes) at various cadences, some short power repeats (53x17, 10 times, 20-30 secs each), and some solid distance days (like 3:15 last sunday) are paying off, i think. i'm also learning how to actually rest and recover, vs my past mantra of more is always better.

the tweaks i'm making to my position on the bike are paying off, too. rotate those hips is my new mantra. getting a bit higher and longer. making a big difference.

losing weight too. power-to-weight, baby. i'm at 149-150 now. my goal is as close to 145 as my body feels good. at 5'11", that feels reasonable, i think. on august 21 (the day after the race) i'm gonna have the biggest bowl of ice cream you've ever seen!!!

my goal for the race? i want to leave every ounce of energy i have on the mountain. i don't want to bonk part way up, but i also don't want to get to the top with anything left in the tank. i'm intentionally staying away from a time goal. i want to get as fit as i can, work on a sustainable pace, and then just do what my body can. maximum effort and try not to punk out on the way up. if i can accept the pain and not give in to it, then that will be victory for me. does that make sense?

ok, which bike? still open on that. three are possible: hampsten/parlee, ottrott and the late darkhorse, the cckmp. i'll ride all three equally over the next few months, go to Ascutney in late july, do some tests, mess with some gearing, and let my body decide. i feel lucky to have such good choices (and will take all the gram-weenie help i can get!)

i tried the powertap, and while it is a great product and by far, watts is the best training measure, for me, it was one layer of complication too much for me. my job and family responsibilities are pretty complicated right now. i'm trying to keep my training hard but simple. time and cadence, though not as accurate as watts, are just simpler for me now, and right now, simple is very good.

how about you, jeff? what are you doing now? wow. two weeks. getting close. please share. and please, i'd love to read a detailed ventoux ride report! i wish you the BEST of luck. and in two weeks, ice cream and beer!!!! :beer:

[jeffg]

I try to see if I can quantify my goals at some points, at others "finish strong" is the best I can say when the course is really an unknown.

I ask about power since this will help you think about training and gearing for Mt. Washington. I recall you planning to use a compact with DA, right? I would think you would need to average about 6 mph to average 60 rpm, and that does not account for the steeper sections. So either you would need to grind a bit or be able to up the power somewhat. In terms of watts/kg, I would think about 4 would do the trick. Of course, if you want 65-70 rpm, well, you know the rest ... ;)

For example, I rode a climb in the Black Forest twice so far this year that averages 12% for the first 2 miles (of four). Each time it was after another moderate 6-7% climb of 11-12km. I could average a little better than 60 rpm for that 2 mile, 12% section each time at about 6.6 mph (39X29) and go hard, but not 100%. I do not know if I could keep that pace up over the length of Mt. Washington, especially if I were to be facing the wild headwinds that both Mt. Washington and Ventoux are known for. I will be riding either a 34X27 or a 34X29 on Ventoux, since I want to leave a margin for error and am hoping to ride closer to 70 rpm since I have to ride a total of 105 miles and 11,000+ feet, not just Bedoin to the top.

As for training, well let's just say it's not enough currently. I am riding more 2X20s (rather than long tempo sessions) and moving towards higher intensity. I will add a few 5x4 minute intervals again this week, but focus on longer efforts just below threshold and some shorter TT intensity efforts of 20-45 minutes. My longest ride so far is just under 14 hours ride time, but that was one big exception. Other than that it's more like 2-4 hours.

Goals: I was hoping to ride for a "gold medal" (about 6:45) on Ventoux. To be honest, I am hoping to survive and use this ride as the end of my first Build period. On July 3, I will ride the Dolomite Marathon, and am hoping to "peak" for that. We'll see. If I can break 6:30 on the Maratona, that would be worth toasting!

Beer and ice cream? In Provence, how about some wine? I am dreaming about Muscat de Beaumes de Venise and an apple tart with lavender honey and lavender honey ice cream!

Thanks for the encouragement and keep up the training! :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Too Tall]

You guys are SO AWESOME! It is very exciting to hear about your lead up to these events. Sometimes I remember the preparation ,fondly, for events more so than an event itself.

Both of you are focusing on raising VO2 and watts/kg agree it's a smart strategy.

Holy cow man: "In Provence, how about some wine? I am dreaming about Muscat de Beaumes de Venise and an apple tart with lavender honey and lavender honey ice cream!"

I am soooo envious. My sister just left us after a long visit. She lives in Paris and has a place in Provence too and every time she visits brings me Lavendar Honey, Stinky Cheese, Chevre' and cheap Lavendar soap...my favorites. Look up her "get away" town of "Quinson". She rents her house if that is ever an interest for you.

If either of you guys is "wired" for the events I'd dig seeing data.

PEACE! Josh

[Len J]

awesome endeavor.

I've followed your lead up and, not really knowing much about Mt washington, saw an article in (of all places) bicycle magazine about one mans attempt last year to break 1:20. It was well written and really gave me a sense of the history, the "elements" that need to be battled and the feeling of finishing. If you haven't read it it's worth it. PM me if you can't find it and I'll see if I still have it.

I'm most impressed with the root of your motivation (to finally give 100% to something and damn the fear of failure). It sounds like you are learning much about yourself, and most important, you are enjoying the journey not just the result on the top of Mt Washington.

Guys....wouldn't it be cool to travel up there to greet climb at the top? Hmmmm.......whatcha think?

Len

[jeffg]

You guys are SO AWESOME! It is very exciting to hear about your lead up to these events. Sometimes I remember the preparation ,fondly, for events more so than an event itself.

Both of you are focusing on raising VO2 and watts/kg agree it's a smart strategy.

Holy cow man: "In Provence, how about some wine? I am dreaming about Muscat de Beaumes de Venise and an apple tart with lavender honey and lavender honey ice cream!"

I am soooo envious. My sister just left us after a long visit. She lives in Paris and has a place in Provence too and every time she visits brings me Lavendar Honey, Stinky Cheese, Chevre' and cheap Lavendar soap...my favorites. Look up her "get away" town of "Quinson". She rents her house if that is ever an interest for you.

If either of you guys is "wired" for the events I'd dig seeing data.

PEACE! Josh

Wow! The one I am envious of is your sister! It would be great to rent a house at some point. My wife and I are heading back to where we spent our honeymoon (Luberon), but it would be great to head back with the broader family the next time.

As for the ride, is Vo2max work (e.g., 5x4 minutes) optimal for rides where the goal is to ride more at a steady "tempo" rather than to attack? At the Maratona at least, the best riders are essentially pros, i.e. 4.5 hours for a little over 90 miles and 14,000+ feet of climbing, so me attacking on the Giau would have little point but to vault me into the red zone (more). I want to crest the Giau at about 4.5 hours into the ride (at about 110km and only the Falzarego to climb). Now I am taking it easy with the 5X4s, and just making sure I work up to a max effort 1-2 times on a climb or the trainer at least once a week. As usual, any thoughts are appreciated ...

[Kevin]

thanks, everyone, for being interested. i appreciated it.

training is going very well, inspite of the weather. ;) i can't say enough about the benefits of having a coach and a well thought out training plan. i can feel myself getting stronger and kudos for that go to kurt, adam and cyclesmart. i'm still in the base phase. with 3 months to go, this feels right. a great mix of longish intervals (15-20 minutes) at various cadences, some short power repeats (53x17, 10 times, 20-30 secs each), and some solid distance days (like 3:15 last sunday) are paying off, i think. i'm also learning how to actually rest and recover, vs my past mantra of more is always better.

the tweaks i'm making to my position on the bike are paying off, too. rotate those hips is my new mantra. getting a bit higher and longer. making a big difference.

losing weight too. power-to-weight, baby. i'm at 149-150 now. my goal is as close to 145 as my body feels good. at 5'11", that feels reasonable, i think. on august 21 (the day after the race) i'm gonna have the biggest bowl of ice cream you've ever seen!!!

my goal for the race? i want to leave every ounce of energy i have on the mountain. i don't want to bonk part way up, but i also don't want to get to the top with anything left in the tank. i'm intentionally staying away from a time goal. i want to get as fit as i can, work on a sustainable pace, and then just do what my body can. maximum effort and try not to punk out on the way up. if i can accept the pain and not give in to it, then that will be victory for me. does that make sense?

ok, which bike? still open on that. three are possible: hampsten/parlee, ottrott and the late darkhorse, the cckmp. i'll ride all three equally over the next few months, go to Ascutney in late july, do some tests, mess with some gearing, and let my body decide. i feel lucky to have such good choices (and will take all the gram-weenie help i can get!)

i tried the powertap, and while it is a great product and by far, watts is the best training measure, for me, it was one layer of complication too much for me. my job and family responsibilities are pretty complicated right now. i'm trying to keep my training hard but simple. time and cadence, though not as accurate as watts, are just simpler for me now, and right now, simple is very good.

how about you, jeff? what are you doing now? wow. two weeks. getting close. please share. and please, i'd love to read a detailed ventoux ride report! i wish you the BEST of luck. and in two weeks, ice cream and beer!!!! :beer:

Take it easy on me at the Open House. Remember I live on a sand bar left behind by a glacier, I view a speed bump as a hill. :beer:

Kevin

[Sandy]

I consider a speed bump as Mt. Washington. :)


Sandy

[Kevin]

I consider a speed bump as Mt. Washington. :)


Sandy

I am in serious trouble. If I agree to buy all the drinks will you guys take it easy on me? :beer:

Kevin

[dcotcamp]

Climb,

Sorry to jump into this so late, but I wanted to wish you the best regarding your training as well as the Mt. Washington race.

I understand what (I think) you mean about the Powertap. I've used one for probably 80% of my rides over the last 3-4 years, and there are certainly times when it's liberating to just ride by feel. I -certainly- don't presume to be your coach (I was coached by a Cycle-Smart coach until I retired from racing this year), but.......

If you want to -know- whether you're getting more fit, there is no substitute for a power meter (other than times up a hillclimb).

Higher perceived exertion for a given power can tell you that it's time for a little rest, even if the training schedule says it's supposed to be something else. Paying attention to that can go a long way toward avoiding overtraining.

-Knowing- the power you can maintain for your expected time up Mt Washington is a -very- valuable piece of information. It's very easy in a race like that to be pumped up, go too hard at the start, and pay terribly for your initial enthusiasm at the top. An anecdote here: last year in the GMSR, I knew within about 5 watts what I could probably maintain for the length of time the App Gap climb would take. When we got to the last 5K, (where the road gets a little steeper), I just held the power to that level and let about 30 guys just go up the road. I passed all but about 7 of them before the summit, and those 7 were all just plain better than I was. On a climb lasting over an hour, keeping your power at functional threshold power levels is even more important than it is for a relatively short climb like App Gap.

Sorry to go on, but I'm so sold on the practical use of the power meter that I would use one, even with the attendant weight penalty, for a hill climb such as Mt Washington. Even if you decide not to use one routinely in training, I'd urge you to consider 'testing' with one enough to know your functional threshold power.

Best of luck in your training and in the race!

Dennis

[Too Tall]

Jeffg, sorry man I lost track of this thread. You are on track and right thinking to have a steady diet of long efforts. Specificity is key baby! However, I am saying your steady effort will benefit with VO2 training added. Riding at more watts with lower HR is the goal non? Throw down some 5X1's (3 mins. rest between) hard as $h!t after a 5 min. rest apre's long climbs. Get it? If you get bored with that, do a 5-7 min. TT effort after 10 min. rest (after long climb).

[jeffg]

Jeffg, sorry man I lost track of this thread. You are on track and right thinking to have a steady diet of long efforts. Specificity is key baby! However, I am saying your steady effort will benefit with VO2 training added. Riding at more watts with lower HR is the goal non? Throw down some 5X1's (3 mins. rest between) hard as $h!t after a 5 min. rest apre's long climbs. Get it? If you get bored with that, do a 5-7 min. TT effort after 10 min. rest (after long climb).

Thanks! That sounds great to put it in after a climb. Yesterday I did 2X20, 1X30 with some good power spikes into what I would consider Vo2max range and averaged about 10 watts over what my threshold is (was). HR averaged about 172-176 (85-88% of max HR) and topped out at 194, where I use the last km to ramp it up about into the lower range of what I would try for 5X4's. That smarts! Two days earlier I tried to pace 90 minutes at about 5% under threshold, and that was mentally very tough. That is specificity since I expect Ventoux will take at least 1.5 hours from Bedoin to the top and at least 45-50 minutes from Sault to Chalet Reynard. Next year I will be smart like climb and get a coach! :banana:

[dcotcamp]

Jeffg,

I think you're right on track with the specificity of your training. I think it's certainly possible that you might see additional gains if you have the time and inclination to do some VO2Max work, too. I think of that as the 'ceiling' of performance, and that the idea is to get the ceiling higher, and then ride as close to that ceiling (FTP as a percentage of VO2Max) as you can for the length of time the climb will take.

I have to quibble a little with TT, though, in two regards:

1. I don't know any reason to care whatsoever about your heart rate. Power, not heart rate, moves the bike. So improvements in sustainable power (or for a hillclimb, power to weight ratio) are the goal as I see it. As fitness improves, power will go up for the same heart rate, but I firmly believe that HR is a sort of red herring. Lots of things ( for example, hydration, caffeine intake, how rested/fatigued you are that day) influence HR, but -may- not influence power production.

2. If you decide to do some VO2Max intervals, the usual prescription is either 6 x 5 min with around 3 minutes' rest, or 9 x 3 minutes with about 1 - 1.5 minutes' rest. The idea is to spend as much time at VO2Max as possible, and 1 minute intervals are usually considered too short to accomplish that. They're usually reserved for increasing anaerobic capacity.

Good luck, and please tell us about it when you're done.

Dennis

[jeffg]

Thanks. I do not wish to speak for TT, but I think he may be taking into account that I only have an ergometer (Cardgirus) and not an on-bike power meter. For that reason I look at HR as a rough indication. Power is paramount for all my indoor interval training, whereas I am usually able to measure intervals outdoors using hills. A power meter would be best, of course, though extravagant for a hack like me.

This is probably material for another thread, but what about ergomo? Since it is a BB-based system, you can use a greater variety of cranks, keep your wheels and it is one of the more cost-efficient solutions.

Best,

Jeff

[Too Tall]

What Jeffg said.

One of my teammates has ergomo and he has ditched it for SRM due to defects and glacial customer service. It seemed to work fine when it worked and data was accurate, consistent...easy downloads.

Umm, not sure what to say about HR. I'm a watts guy however not blind to validity of using psyological indicators where you find them.

HR is very valid even for us power guys if it is used in conjunction with lacate testing and knowledge.

Us watts guys say "FTP" and smart HR guys say "Lactate Balance Point"....Lactate Balance Point changes due to training stress...venus...mars, which is one of your points. So intuitively it would seem not so smart to train by HR and I agree. Why would you chase some stupid test score that was only singularly vaild??

However, should you have the ability to monitor blood lactate frequently than HR based training becomes very accurate. So how the heck do you know your blood lactate balance point without a lactate meter? Perceived Effort and extrapolation through observed recent performance (last nights 2X20)

I wager the last remnants of my crystallized lavendar honey that JeffG knows his blood lactate balance point within a few beats and can correlate that with
watts because he works with both disciplines and keeps good notes. Knowledge.

Just going by HR alone is BS agreed my friend.

There is a real rub here. Trained athletes are people and people range the gamit in:body awareness, PE etc. So, how can I tell someone to train a few beats below their blood lactate balance point unless they know what it is through testing and coaching? Answer: unlikey.

[dcotcamp]

Ergomo

I agree with TT about the Ergomo. The fundamental problem with it is that it measures power from one side only. I tried one for a little while, and the numbers it gave were nowhere close to those I got with an SRM or PT. You can 'fudge' the calibration, but if your left-right leg balance changes, the numbers from the Ergomo will be off again.

If you want power on the cheap, look for a used PT. They go for around $500 to $600. For that, you can buy two, build one for a training wheel and the other into a race wheel, if that's your thing.

I agree that, especially for longer efforts, HR can be useful. That would certainly include threshold efforts. One other problem with HR is the lag between the effort being made and the HR produced. For longer steady effort, that's not much of a factor, but for short intervals, HR alone will not help you 'calibrate' the effort during the first couple of minutes. It's pretty easy to get carried away and start 'way too hard.

If a rider has a power meter, then I remain convinced that HR is of tertiary interest, after power and perceived exertion. In fact, I seldom bother to wear the HR strap anymore.

Clearly there are lots of ways to do all this, and whatever works for a given rider is great.

Dennis