Serotta stock carbon

[spartacus]

Why is Serotta stock carbon offered in compact but not traditional/ ish (horizontal tt/ 1-2 degrees of slope)?

Parlee seems to offer both styles. Why not Serotta?

[Fixed]

good question i think that it has to do with the number people they can fit on a compact frame it is more flexible in that stem and seatpost length can make a better fit for more people ( I..M.H.O. )
straddle height is more flexible
cheers

[rnhood]

Parlee only offers one style in their "stock" bike lines also (Z4 and Z5). And they are compact, or semi-compact designs. However, they do offer two versions of each size in the Z5 model, one with a taller head tube than the other. So they have you covered, regardless of what geometry you might need for a proper fit. For a traditional level'ish TT, you have to go custom.

To offer both sloping and level TT frames in ready stock, it would be costly to maintain so many models when its merely a matter of aesthetics.

[spartacus]

merely a matter of aesthetics.

I appreciate your contribution, really I do. Fit is king. Aesthetics is something else, but still important. Some bikes fit but look 'dog', and they could have fit AND be pleasing to the eye too. Beauty, eye, beholder, yes, a given, but some eyes have it and some don't. A build should be more than just technical, and some fitters have only the technical to offer. The difference between a well proportioned frame and a sorry looking example can be quite subtle, but the subtle details make the difference. :beer:

[dekindy]

good question i think that it has to do with the number people they can fit on a compact frame it is more flexible in that stem and seatpost length cam make a better fit for more people ( i..m.h.o. )
straddle height is more flexible
cheers

Sorry, incorrect. I am not trying to be harsh but this myth will not die despite for some reason. It has been debunked by many experts.

[spartacus]

Sorry, incorrect. I am not trying to be harsh but this myth will not die despite for some reason. It has been debunked by many experts.

Does this mean that traditional frame shapes are entirely feasible for builders economically?

[dekindy]

Does this mean that traditional frame shapes are entirely feasible for builders economically?

Yes.

There is no difference between the two frame styles regarding the number of frame options that have to be offered to fit the same number of riders. The contact points have to be in the same place on any frame and a sloped top tube neither adds or detracts from this capability.

[HenryA]

The OP asks essentially:

"Why don't they make a stock bike just the way I want?"

The answer is that they make stock bikes to suit many riders.
And they make custom bikes to suit those who want something other than stock.

If you want just-exactly-what-you-want-and-nothing-else and its not a stock item then its time to order a custom bike.

And the reason the stock frame design is what it is --- is that it can be used to fit a wider variety of riders with a reasonable number of stock sizes.

[spartacus]

The OP asks essentially:

"Why don't they make a stock bike just the way I want?"

The answer is that they make stock bikes to suit many riders.
And they make custom bikes to suit those who want something other than stock.

If you want just-exactly-what-you-want-and-nothing-else and its not a stock item then its time to order a custom bike.

And the reason the stock frame design is what it is --- is that it can be used to fit a wider variety of riders with a reasonable number of stock sizes.


Err, no, that's not what I asked. I've always assumed that for economic reasons frame builders choose to offer stock frames in the modern sloping style. Is this the case?

[Bob Ross]

Parlee only offers one style in their "stock" bike lines also (Z4 and Z5). And they are compact, or semi-compact designs. ...[snip]... For a traditional level'ish TT, you have to go custom.

Has something changed at Parlee recently? They used to offer the Z1, Z2, & Z3 in both stock & custom...and the Z2 has a level TT.

[spartacus]

Has something changed at Parlee recently? They used to offer the Z1, Z2, & Z3 in both stock & custom...and the Z2 has a level TT.

So a stock level Z2 was available? I wonder why Serotta hasn't offered a stock level carbon?

[Pete Serotta]

Stock Level Carbons do not sell Parlee, Specialized and many others realize that.

If you desire a level tt on a custom Serotta Carbon - it can be yours. My Meivici from 4 years ago is a level top tube as is SPOKES


So a stock lever Z2 was available? I wonder why Serotta hasn't offered a stock level carbon?

[dave thompson]

Err, no, that's not what I asked. I've always assumed that for economic reasons frame builders choose to offer stock frames in the modern sloping style. Is this the case?
Not necessarily economic reasons, particularly with Serotta as they have the means and expertise to do it any way they wish. I think that their choice may be more market driven as the 'fashion' today, particularly with younger buyers, is for a sloping top tube. And, as those models are built to a price point some $800 less than their custom brothers, they can't offer too many variations on the theme without increasing their costs.

Your postings here on the forum are often harsh and overtly critical of Serotta, and sometimes of someone that enters a thread that you are in. Is there a reason for this or am I reading something into your postings?

[happycampyer]

At one point a couple of years ago Serotta did offer the HSG carbon in stock geometry with a level top tube. Here is a review and some pics (a really good looking bike):

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/bikes/road/product/hsg-carbon-09-33221

I’m not sure why Serotta stopped offering it, but I suspect it had as much to do with demand as anything (as Dave suggests). The average buyer that walks into a bike shop thinks of a sloping top tube as modern and racy (since that is what people see pros riding (mostly)), and a level top tube as old fashioned. That may have more to do with it than the thought that a sloping top tube allows for a wider range of riders because of the greater standover clearance (I wonder if the square HSG carbon was offered in more stock sizes that the current sloping version—does anyone have the catalogues for 2008/2009?).

[spartacus]

Not necessarily economic reasons, particularly with Serotta as they have the means and expertise to do it any way they wish. I think that their choice may be more market driven as the 'fashion' today, particularly with younger buyers, is for a sloping top tube. And, as those models are built to a price point some $800 less than their custom brothers, they can't offer too many variations on the theme without increasing their costs.

Your postings here on the forum are often harsh and overtly critical of Serotta, and sometimes of someone that enters a thread that you are in. Is there a reason for this or am I reading something into your postings?

I'm not the cheerleader type Dave. I have a custom Serotta and I like it, but that's because before I ordered it I asked many questions. Now I'm researching for another purchase and I have to get to the bottom of the carbon 'thing' before I decide if it's going to be a Serotta. It's just my way. If it offends you...well, each to their own.

It may also have something to do with the medium of communication. If I can't see the face I tend to communicate in a slightly more 'autistic' way. Perhaps I do have autistic traits that show themselves more in this kind of medium. Who knows, perhaps I need some couch time :-), but I want to spend my money on a bike not an analyst. I think in the abstract, but abstract channels of communication (like a forum) are more difficult to grasp. Perhaps I'm behind in the evolutionary race of modern living.

[HenryA]

Err, no, that's not what I asked. I've always assumed that for economic reasons frame builders choose to offer stock frames in the modern sloping style. Is this the case?

First, there is no difference in wonderfulness between a bike with sloping tube or a level tube. You may have a personal preference but there are GREAT bikes made in either style. And style is what you're asking about.

Availability of either style is not because one costs more than the other to make. Its because to have a manageable and coherent product line the makers have to pick something that is the standard. If they made both level and slope tube stock bikes in each size they'd have twice the stock units to keep up. That's the economic reason. The maker and the dealer would have to stock twice the inventory or face being "out of stock" on some stock products. If its "stock" then it needs to be "in stock" most all the time, or at least coming down the pipeline asap.

Same for paint. For most colors, it all sprays the same and finishes out the same. In theory, there is no limit to color choices. But if you're making for inventory you have to pick something. Same for advertising. So typically a given model comes in one or two colors. Often smaller makers do only one color each year. I can imagine it goes like this -- "man those decals look so right on that color - lets do that this year!!" You want a different color? You can pay more for a custom paint job and get what you want.

[Pete Serotta]

Spartacus - I could go into detail by detail on this but a far classier way was the way Dave did it.

If a Serotta frame has made your final list, I am happy with you considering them. But I am hard pressed to understand why you are critical of Top Tube level or not with SEROTTA. This is just the latest of what I consider your questionable posts that I have focused on.
Additionally if a dealer is not close to you, I have offered to find specific information for you. In my post earlier here I even offered to research specifically what you needed. If a level Top Tube is your preference, I would suggest you get sized and get a custom frame. (I will insure you get a level one)

If you want a TREK, PARLEE, SPECIALIZED, IF, or many others - the stock frames are a slanted top tube and no "stock ones" are offered level. I assume you know this since you are looking for a carbon frame

I really do not understand why you keep on poking at generalities of Serotta, many of which are not completely accurate.

If you have a personal customer satisfaction issue with Serotta, please send to me or even posts here in a separate thread. I will address and insure it reaches resolution.

My personal view of your posts in regard to questions are mostly non items for resolution or clarification. It seems mostly finger pointing at Serotta at times and also anti Serotta . If I nor Serotta can show the merits of your next frames then you might be better served shopping another brand.

Additionally I also requests that you become more a contributor to the sport of cycling or technical q and a here. Maybe a move to another forum,that better serves your needs (if I can not resolve any customer issues you have with SEROTTA) is a far more productive selection process for you.

Lasly please do not attack Dave or anyone else here or I will address it.

(yes you can always attack me so feel free.). PETE :crap: :crap:


Not necessarily economic reasons, particularly with Serotta as they have the means and expertise to do it any way they wish. I think that their choice may be more market driven as the 'fashion' today, particularly with younger buyers, is for a sloping top tube. And, as those models are built to a price point some $800 less than their custom brothers, they can't offer too many variations on the theme without increasing their costs.

Your postings here on the forum are often harsh and overtly critical of Serotta, and sometimes of someone that enters a thread that you are in. Is there a reason for this or am I reading something into your postings?

[dave thompson]

First, there is no difference in wonderfulness between a bike with sloping tube or a level tube. You may have a personal preference but there are GREAT bikes made in either style. And style is what you're asking about.

Availability of either style is not because one costs more than the other to make. Its because to have a manageable and coherent product line the makers have to pick something that is the standard. If they made both level and slope tube stock bikes in each size they'd have twice the stock units to keep up. That's the economic reason. The maker and the dealer would have to stock twice the inventory or face being "out of stock" on some stock products. If its "stock" then it needs to be "in stock" most all the time, or at least coming down the pipeline asap.

Same for paint. For most colors, it all sprays the same and finishes out the same. In theory, there is no limit to color choices. But if you're making for inventory you have to pick something. Same for advertising. So typically a given model comes in one or two colors. Often smaller makers do only one color each year. I can imagine it goes like this -- "man those decals look so right on that color - lets do that this year!!" You want a different color? You can pay more for a custom paint job and get what you want.
An excellent clear and concise explanation of what I was ramblingly trying to say.

[spartacus]

Spartacus - I could go into detail by detail on this but a far classier way was the way Dave did it.

If a Serotta frame has made your final list, I am happy with you considering them. But I am hard pressed to understand why you are critical of Top Tube level or not with SEROTTA. This is just the latest of what I consider your questionable posts that I have focused on.
Additionally if a dealer is not close to you, I have offered to find specific information for you. In my post earlier here I even offered to research specifically what you needed. If a level Top Tube is your preference, I would suggest you get sized and get a custom frame. (I will insure you get a level one)

If you want a TREK, PARLEE, SPECIALIZED, IF, or many others - the stock frames are a slanted top tube and no "stock ones" are offered level. I assume you know this since you are looking for a carbon frame

I really do not understand why you keep on poking at generalities of Serotta, many of which are not completely accurate.

If you have a personal customer satisfaction issue with Serotta, please send to me or even posts here in a separate thread. I will address and insure it reaches resolution.

My personal view of your posts in regard to questions are mostly non items for resolution or clarification. It seems mostly finger pointing at Serotta at times and also anti Serotta . If I nor Serotta can show the merits of your next frames then you might be better served shopping another brand.

Additionally I also requests that you become more a contributor to the sport of cycling or technical q and a here. Maybe a move to another forum,that better serves your needs (if I can not resolve any customer issues you have with SEROTTA) is a far more productive selection process for you.

Lasly please do not attack Dave or anyone else here or I will address it.

(yes you can always attack me so feel free.). PETE :crap: :crap:

Pm'ed you Pete. Chill.

[Pete Serotta]

Pm'ed you Pete. Chill.


Thanks for PM.

I am not looklng for a debate on it nor a court like evidence building session.


What I truly would appreciate is for you to chill some on the type of posting and responses you quite often do.. The PM you sent placed "the reason" for post responses or negatives on threads to others. THings are never all "one way" and I request that you take a less "in your face" approach to things.

The internet is good but not always complete in message meaning. I have learned from interaction with others, and have continued to work on conveying what i am trying to communicate better You need to do the same and ask yourself what the purpose of yourpost is and what information you are looking to give or convey. This does not happen in your case often enough,

Your PM to me placed ALL blame on others... and that is not the case most times, especially when on a forum.

Summary of my requests is as I listed in prior note that your response of "chill" was written to as a reply. It was one word and that was not too definitive.

Please work on moving in the direction requested or please think about another forum. THANKS

Pete

[Fixed]

Sorry, incorrect. I am not trying to be harsh but this myth will not die despite for some reason. It has been debunked by many experts.
sorry only going by my own experience
when they first came out a lot of people called them girls bikes
but i don't think that . i had a 54 sloping serotta and i ride 57 it worked great with a longer post and a longer stem i raced it for a couple of years with some success . it remains on of my favorite bikes i have owned
the 3 contact points are what matters anyway imho cheers

[Bob Ross]

If you want a TREK, PARLEE, SPECIALIZED, IF, or many others - the stock frames are a slanted top tube and no "stock ones" are offered level.

from http://www.parleecycles.com/z2z3/

"Built using the same tube sets and techniques as the Z1, the Z2 offers a wide range of sizes and options for those who prefer a level or gently sloping (up to two degrees) top tube. The Z2 is offered in five FLEX-FIT semi-custom sizes. Options for the Z2 include custom geometry..."

[happycampyer]

from http://www.parleecycles.com/z2z3/

"Built using the same tube sets and techniques as the Z1, the Z2 offers a wide range of sizes and options for those who prefer a level or gently sloping (up to two degrees) top tube. The Z2 is offered in five FLEX-FIT semi-custom sizes. Options for the Z2 include custom geometry..."The Z1 comes in stock sizes, too (15 vs. 5 for the Z2 & Z3). I think that it's a question of the difference in how the product lines are presented—the Z1, Z2 and Z3 are all custom frames, it's just that you can specify a stock size if you prefer. I'm pretty sure that the price isn't any lower if you get a stock geometry. if Serotta posted its range of stock sizes, it could say that the Meivici can be built in stock sizes with a level top tube, but it would still cost what it costs. My understanding from talking to Bob and Tom Lodi is that the Z2 costs less than the Z1 not so much because it comes in stock sizes, but because it is not as time-consuming for Parlee to build (the wishbone stay vs. the dual stay, etc.).

[spartacus]

Thanks for PM.

I am not looklng for a debate on it nor a court like evidence building session.


What I truly would appreciate is for you to chill some on the type of posting and responses you quite often do.. The PM you sent placed "the reason" for post responses or negatives on threads to others. THings are never all "one way" and I request that you take a less "in your face" approach to things.

The internet is good but not always complete in message meaning. I have learned from interaction with others, and have continued to work on conveying what i am trying to communicate better You need to do the same and ask yourself what the purpose of yourpost is and what information you are looking to give or convey. This does not happen in your case often enough,

Your PM to me placed ALL blame on others... and that is not the case most times, especially when on a forum.

Summary of my requests is as I listed in prior note that your response of "chill" was written to as a reply. It was one word and that was not too definitive.

Please work on moving in the direction requested or please think about another forum. THANKS

Pete

My PM to you pointed out the consistent behavior of one particular member on here who likes to slap down any view not in line with his own. That's an observation. If you want to make a PM exchange of views public in this way I have the right of public reply. That is natural justice, but not evidential court justice.

I suggest we three now draw a line under this spat and move on.

[Pete Serotta]

but I failed and the Spartacus ID is not allowed to posts for the time being.


PETE



My PM to you pointed out the consistent behavior of one particular member on here who likes to slap down any view not in line with his own. That's an observation. If you want to make a PM exchange of views public in this way I have the right of public reply. That is natural justice, but not evidential court justice.

I suggest we three now draw a line under this spat and move on.