Anyone drink raw cow's milk?

[veggieburger]

I realize that there are many out there who say you shouldn't drink milk...any milk, be it from a cow, goat or whatever. But I have recently tried unpasturized cow's milk, done a bit of reading and some folks swear by it. I find it's messing with the plumbing a little bit (an expected consequence as my stomach gets used to it), but overall I like it a lot.

Any other udder drinkers out there?

[kramnnim]

I used to...got it from a friend with a dairy farm. Never really noticed a difference, other than the annoying cream that always rose to the top.

[Germany_chris]

Tis better in my opinion

[fourflys]

there's been a bit of news of late about cheese made with raw milk that was making people sick regardless of how long it was aged...

not sure I'd risk it myself, but I really haven't read up on it so...

[Waldo]

Back in 1967, when I was a wee (V)lad of five, I nearly died from Measles I caught in a sleep-away summer camp near Kiev (this was old country, bear with me, please). After my parents retrieved from the camp what little of me remained after my illness, we flew from Kiev home to Kharkov, me promptly barfing upon the plane's landing. A week later, my parents took me to Crimea to recuperate. I took daily constitutional walks with my dad, which invariably culminated with a visit to a local cow (whose name escapes me at the moment, may she rest in peace) and its still warm milk. My parents will swear that my swift recovery is directly attributable to my consumption of the stuff.

Your experience may differ.

[biker72]

Back in the 60's my parents had access to raw cows milk. It does taste better but has too many potential problems for me to drink today.

[veggieburger]

Ah Vlodko, this is the sort of thing I'm talking about. The folks I have talked to (many of them ex-hippies, so I take it all with a grain of salt) credit raw milk with solving all sorts of gastronmical problems, among other things.

I think part of the problem is our stomachs are now accustomed to 'dead' milk, instead of the bacteria-laden goodness of raw milk. I'll keep drinking it and report back if anything miraculous takes place (hopefully I don't grow udders, but I'll let you know...)

Back in 1967, when I was a wee lad of five, I nearly died from Measles I caught in a sleep-away summer camp near Kiev (this was old country, bear with me, please). After my parents retrieved from the camp what little of me remained after my illness. We flew from Kiev home to Kharkov, me promptly bafring upon the plane's landing. A week later, my parents took me to Crimea to recuperate. I took daily constitutional walks with my dad, which invariably culminated with a visit to a local cow (whose name escapes me at the moment, may she rest in peace) and its still warm milk. My parents will swear that my swift recovery is directly attributable to my consumption of the stuff.

Your experience may differ.

[dekindy]

Around Indiana it is illegal to sell raw milk for human consumption. There are two ways around this. One is that the sale of raw milk is allowed to be sold as animal feed so a person can purchase it and drink it themselves. The other way is there are farms that sell goats and shares of cows. They then board the animals charging a boardin fee, feed, and plastic container fees. They estimate the production that you are allowed each month and you go to their facility, pickup your milk, and sign for it.

They also sell beef, lamb, chicken, and turkey meats from grass-fed only animals and raw dairy products that are not restricted.

I am not sure how I learned of the health benefits of raw milk but I thoroughly researched it thinking it might be of benefit to our handicapped son. However it is more expensive and is consumption of dairy was limited so I did not pursue it. I think it is much healthier but have not been motivated enough to make the effort. Since food prices are going up dramatically, the price gap between commercial and natural production may narrow considerably.

[Kirk Pacenti]

I don't want to cause this thread to drift too much, but this is definitely worth watching.

http://www.foodincmovie.com/


Cheers,

KP

[Louis]

NYT story (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/19/business/19milk.html?hp)

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/02/19/business/19milk-span/19milk-span-articleLarge.jpg

Local, Organic Milk: Nice Idea, but Try Making a Profit
By KATIE ZEZIMA

EDMUNDS, Me. — Perched on the rocky coast of far eastern Maine, the farm owned by Aaron Bell and Carly DelSignore is stunning, both in its views of Cobscook Bay and in the distance that the milk they sell must travel to get on the shelves.

Their farm is a six-hour drive from most potential customers — so far that their longtime processor, HP Hood, gave up on them in 2009, convinced that no one would never make a profit hauling milk such a vast distance.

But the married couple, part of the eighth generation to farm on Mr. Bell’s family’s land, is determined to keep dairy a viable industry here in Washington County. They are of a small, farmer-run outfit called Maine’s Own Organic Milk — MOO Milk for short — which hopes to persuade New England foodies to pick up a carton of MOO’s organic, local, slow-pasteurized milk instead of reaching for familiar national brands like Horizon Organic or Organic Valley.

So far, success has been elusive. Ever since its milk began hitting shelves in January 2010, the company has barely managed to stay afloat, relying on a mix of investor money, grants, charitable donations and the kindness of neighbors buying half-gallons in solidarity.

“Our boat is made of duct tape and we’ve almost sunk a few times, but we’re paddling along,” said Mr. Bell, 33.

MOO Milk’s journey is a cautionary tale: true grit, a laudable philosophy and a hot trend aren’t enough to create a viable business.
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For more see link above.

[tuscanyswe]

When i was a kid at the countryhouse we had a farm nearby. Went couple times a week to pick up some fresh milk. So fresh it was still varm.

I liked the cream on top and the milk itself, but most perhaps getting it and seeing the animals. Today when i have tried it i dont seem to like it as much as i used to.

[WickedWheels]

I knew a racer that swore by it. His family had a farm, too. I would consider it if I was looking for an edge. Certainly worth trying.

On a side note... my wife is still nursing our baby. I wonder.....

[daker13]

I have recently become a devotee of the writer Sandor Katz and his books Wild Fermentation and the Revolution will not be Microwaved. One of his points, to put it simply, is that most of the government regulations with respect to food hygiene are really just put in place in order to benefit factory production, which is the real cause of most deaths/illnesses from food. Raw milk is an excellent example of this. It's not for everyone, but I love it; here in RI it's illegal, but I drive across the border to Mass to buy it from a farmer. Pasteurization kills most of the healthy enzymes in milk that make it digestible, so yeah, raw milk should be much easier on your stomach (it is on mine). Katz's other point is that our antibiotic-crazed culture has made everyone think bacteria is 'bad,' when bacteria and fermentation is at the source of many of the world's great foods: yogurt, bread, beer, etc. Anyway. If anyone wants a kombucha mother, pm me.

[nervexpro55]

I realize that there are many out there who say you shouldn't drink milk...any milk, be it from a cow, goat or whatever. But I have recently tried unpasturized cow's milk, done a bit of reading and some folks swear by it. I find it's messing with the plumbing a little bit (an expected consequence as my stomach gets used to it), but overall I like it a lot.

Any other udder drinkers out there?
Never did raw cow but for a year i was getting fresh goats milk and loved it, unless they were eating alot of garbage that day.

[pbjbike]

I grew up drinking it and have worked on half a dozen dairy farms, both cow and goat. Always drank the raw milk. Good stuff. Find a farm that tests their milk regularly. If your avitar is an indication of being vegan, it will take awile to get used to dairy. Raw milk yogurt is probably one of the best things you can eat, and might help the transition. Cheers, Patrick

[Louis]

About 6 months ago I switched from industrial-type dairy skim milk to organic soy milk because I didn't like the idea of supporting factory farms.

I'd maybe drink small family-farm cow milk if it were readily available and I knew that Bessie was enjoying a happy, hormone-free life out in the pasture, but that I know of, none of those conditions are met around here, so I spend at least twice as much, if not more, for the soy stuff.

[benji]

mmm raw milk. I grew up on it. First one up in the morning got the first pour with the cream on the top. Lucky Charms and raw creamy milk is one of the best tasting things in the world.
I buy it sometimes now. My kids and I love it, but at $7 a gallon it pisses my wife off.

[mo3039]

I've been allergic to milk since I was a kid. Tolerate a bit of dairy, like really hard cheese, but soft creamy stuff forget it....a couple years back we got a raw milk share like dekindy was talking about and I made the best Mexican hot chocolate EVER - it almost didn't affect me. Pretty wild. I don't like dairy enough anymore to deal with the edge, but it did say something about 'modern' milk to me.

[MapleWelder]

In Boulder a housemate of mine was part of a coop like dekindy mentioned, where you 'co-own' a cow in order to get around laws prohibiting sale of raw milk. I had been vegan for three years, several years before trying raw milk, and it didn't give me any problems. Maybe the four years of readjustment to dairy before trying this helped. As everyone's mentioned, it sure did taste better -- like genuine sustenance, instead of white-ish water.
Good luck!

[NateM]

my wife joined a milk co-op here in NJ about 2 yrs ago. The milk is from NY cause its not legal in Jersey,$4 a gallon.I find that it tastes better in the spring when the grass is new. I dont like it with coffee though

[KeithS]

I grew up in a small rural community (the real valley of the Jolly Green Giant) and my dad sold feed to farmers, back when I was a lad, but not in the old country, we used to buy raw milk from one of his friends and customers. There were 7 kids and we went through two 5 gallon cans of milk a week, for which my dad paid $5. Loved the cream on the top for my cherrios in the morning. I do remember going to friends homes and thinking their milk tasted funny.

The scale of farming in rural Minnesota has changed dramatically. When I was a kid my dad almost made a living on 80 acres of land and 30 holstiens. He sold the herd in 1963 or so because of a change in federal regulation on the handeling of raw milk, from 10 gallon stainless steel cans to bulk collection and tranport. Talk about hard work, he got up milked his 30 cows, and then he did a milk route picking up the 10 gal cans of milk to haul to the local cooperative creamery, then milked again in the evening. He had one serious set of pipes on him. For 5 years he lifted those 80 lb cans into a truck a couple of hundred times a day, he didn't need a gym.

Back to the in the olden days. There were probably 4 farms like my dad's per section of land (640 acres or 1 mile x 1 mile), today there are 4 sections per farm. Just like everything else in the industrialized world, capital intensive means of production replace labor intensive methods. No lamentation here just observations. Sorry for the sidebar hijack here.

There is a farmer here in MN who is in some serious trouble for a couple of cases of salmonela stemming from the sale of unpastuerized raw mile from his farm. He denies the involvement of products from his farm. He is the victim of a vast government conspiricy, just a coincidence that there have been several cases with his products as the only common thread. I don't drink much milk so I almost have no opinion on my consumption, but I would be a bit wary giving it to my kids.

[SEABREEZE]

Two links that should help all



http://www.realmilk.com/



http://www.westonaprice.org/soy-alert.html

Louis check the above regarding Soy.

[novaturient]

Recently started enjoying the raw, whole variety myself (thanks to the good influence of a fellow forumite who is a passionate, insatiable foodie).

I have to say that once you go raw, the store bought variety just doesn't cut it anymore. The raw is rich and creamy and sweet, and if you don't shake the jar to redistribute the cream, it makes the meanest latte you have ever tried.

I've also heard from others that are lactose intolerant that the raw stuff works for them. I guess it comes pre-loaded with the necessary enzymes.

Find a good producer and give it a try if you have a chance.

[johnnymossville]

Grew up on it. we'd get it from my uncle's dairy farm, which was only about a mile away from our house. We had a trail worn through the woods from walking back and forth to get it.

[gearguywb]

Another one that grew up on it. We had a cow and it was part of my chores to do the milking. Also made hand churned butter.

Not sure if I would purchase raw milk from someone unless I trusted them but I did like it and it did not seem to stunt my growth :)

[jimcav]

got really sick from food poisoning in 2009--left me lactose intolerant. found raw milk (sold here in southern cali)--no issues. i love the taste, hate the price. i also love unhomogenized, minimally pasturized milk--tastes great, but for that i need a lactaid pill. and yes i tried lactaid-brand milk and it tastes like crap
the raw milk really helped my GI tract--for months after i "recovered" from my illness, anytime i ate out i got sick. tried yogurt, but it was the raw milk that helped. however, i do believe that a good organic yogurt with more than just acidophilus is a healthy thing to add to the diet.

[Candyman]

I have been drinking raw Jersey milk for nearly forty years. The health benefits are well documented and it tastes much better as well. Frankly, if I couldn't obtain raw milk I would do without milk.

[Marcusaurelius]

I grew up drinking raw milk and thought it was great. The first time I tried milk from I store, I thought it tasted like water and looked very odd (not thick enough).

[MadRocketSci]

what's the problem with it? something inherent to the milk itself, or is it the risk from poop contamination?

anyone try milk in switzerland? that is good sh*t....

[dmurphey]

This is total crap. Raw milk may seem cool and new, but it is quite old. It carries real risk of real serious illness. We learned this through experience decades ago, but don't remember. We are a society that responds to sensation yet ignores wisdom. Milk for human consumption should be pasteurized to prevent brucellosis, listeriosis, TB, and diarrheal disease. We give lots of milk to young kids who need protect from difficult infections.
Dr Don Murphey
Pediatric Infectious Diseases
Fort Worth TX

[Candyman]

Riding a bike carries real health health risks too!

[Seramount]

just recently switched to raw milk, cream, butter.

fabulous stuff. the taste is so much better than the pasteurized crap.

buying the stuff is a pita tho...you have to find a 'connection' to avoid the stupid regulations.

the scare-mongering surrounding the health risks is typical of the western medical community. pill-pushing and surgery is all they know.

[54ny77]

Does raw milk make a pint of Haagen Daz look like child's play in the saturated fat & cholesterol department?

[daker13]

Does raw milk make a pint of Haagen Daz look like child's play in the saturated fat & cholesterol department?

I've read no, but it's probably worth some more research. You get into the whole lipid hypothesis debate, and my eyes start to glaze over.

[SEABREEZE]

54 for your reading enjoyment

http://www.westonaprice.org/modern-diseases/cardiovascular-disease/1687-myths-a-truths-about-cholesterol.html

ALSO

http://www.westonaprice.org/index.php?option=com_googlesearch_cse&n=30&Itemid=367&cx=009193983198767998476%3A3mjsp4momgi&cof=FORID%3A11&ie=UTF-8&q=colesterol+myth&sa=Go!&hl=en&safe=active&cr=countryUS#884

[flydhest]

This is total crap. Raw milk may seem cool and new, but it is quite old. It carries real risk of real serious illness. We learned this through experience decades ago, but don't remember. We are a society that responds to sensation yet ignores wisdom. Milk for human consumption should be pasteurized to prevent brucellosis, listeriosis, TB, and diarrheal disease. We give lots of milk to young kids who need protect from difficult infections.
Dr Don Murphey
Pediatric Infectious Diseases
Fort Worth TX
Whereas it is clear that pasteurizing milk will kill a lot of the bacterial pathogens you warn about, there are many, many, many documented cases of bacterial poisoning from vegetables, especially leafy greens. E coli outbreaks in recent years got a lot of attention.
Should we follow the same logic and ban salad and salad bars. I think there is a potentially clear public health case for it, given the regulation of milk. I suspect, however, the lobbying power and the influence of agribusiness on the USDA and others would prevent it.

I agree with you that there is a plague of forgetfulness that sways a lot of public discourse on these types of issues, but the well-documented coopting of federal regulation in many parts of the food business suggest that some of the forgetting is also by design.

cf, for example, Marion Nestle Food Politics or any of the more sensational, and as a result, for me, questionable, since they are clearly written to sell, works by people like Pollan.

[GuyGadois]

I think it really depends on the origin of the milk ...

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ryB28GKJaNjSgM:


I really wish I could find a bigger image ...

[1centaur]

http://www.westonaprice.org/modern-diseases/cardiovascular-disease/1687-myths-a-truths-about-cholesterol.html

While I have long suggested that book to people who don't understand how cholesterol got to be demonized, I was surprised by this:

"Do not consume protein powders, lean meat, egg whites without the yolks or skim milk. High-protein diets lacking the nutrients supplied by animal fats can deplete vitamin A, leading to heart disease."

Those foods seem fine in a balanced diet, and "high protein" is not defined. Sort of the opposite of conventional "wisdom" not to take high doses of certain vitamins because that can cause serious health problems, without mentioning that "high" means ridiculously high.

[SEABREEZE]

CENTAUR you mention that book, but I have no idea what book your referring to.

If you are referring to The Cholesterol Myths by Uffe Ravnskov, MD, PhD
he certainly challenges conventional wisdom.


If I considered suplimentaion , I sir would have blood work, and let that be my guide to nutritional supplimentation under a professional health providers eye.

With that said, if you know your food source supplier and that there soil is minearaly rich, I beleive there wont be much supplimentation needed if your diet is balanced.

Mineraly rich soil = what the cows graze, veggie and herbs grown , fruit trees. etc It all starts with the soil

I think much of what the WAP foundations beleifs are, puts lots of conventional wisdom to be questioned, challenged, and perhaps disproven or proven.

Regarding your comment about skim milk, egg whites lean meat, it sounds like WAP doesnt beleive thats a balanced diet. Once again challenging conventional wisdom.

By the way caught your stable of bikes in the white tread. Compliments to you... I have a big barn, should yours get a litlte to crowed...Enjoy !!!

[lavi]

Been drinking raw milk and eating raw cheese for the last 3 years. We did this for our kids. I cringe at the thought of drinking dead/puss filled milk now.

[1centaur]

CENTAUR you mention that book, but I have no idea what book your referring to.

If you are referring to The Cholesterol Myths by Uffe Ravnskov, MD, PhD
he certainly challenges conventional wisdom.

Yes, that book. When I want to mention it I rarely want to look up the spelling of his name. Everybody who is prescribed statins (and every doctor who does so) should read that book to see how conventional wisdom was arrived at. The misuse of statistics and then the repetition of such misuse in the face of conflicting evidence is disheartening to say the least. My view after reading that book is that statins work due to their anti-inflammatory properties rather than their cholesterol reducing properties, and there are better/cheaper anti-inflammatories out there.

[SEABREEZE]

Being you are aware of the book The Cholesterol Myths by Uffe Ravnskov, MD, PhD

You may want to review a few articles on fermented foods.

http://www.westonaprice.org/index.php?option=com_googlesearch_cse&n=30&Itemid=367&cx=009193983198767998476%3A3mjsp4momgi&cof=FORID%3A11&ie=UTF-8&q=fermented+foods&sa=Go!&hl=en&safe=active&cr=countryUS#959

[Hardlyrob]

Whereas it is clear that pasteurizing milk will kill a lot of the bacterial pathogens you warn about, there are many, many, many documented cases of bacterial poisoning from vegetables, especially leafy greens. E coli outbreaks in recent years got a lot of attention.
Should we follow the same logic and ban salad and salad bars. I think there is a potentially clear public health case for it, given the regulation of milk. I suspect, however, the lobbying power and the influence of agribusiness on the USDA and others would prevent it.

The milk pasteurization regulations were put in place in the early part of the 20th century primarily as a public health effort to stem tuberculosis. Cows and dairy workers were a significant source of the pathogen, and pasteurizing milk was one way to battle the disease. Given that these regulations were first written at the state level - and they still vary from state to state, I don't think that agribusiness or the USDA - neither of which existed in today's form in the 1920's and 1930's had much to do with the regs.

Yes fresh produce has been an issue in the last few years - spinach, scallions, and lettuce (and a false accusation on tomatoes). As I understand it the e. coli issues are related to animals coming into the fields for lettuce and spinach. This is coupled with shortening the supply chain so that the produce is in the marketplace while the micro testing for e. coli and salmonella is just being completed. It's not a question of regulation - there's plenty today. It's more a question of risk management practices for the produce processors. The FDA regulatory stance is you don't have to be inspected (unlike USDA products) to put items in interstate commerce, but once you do you bear all of the risk and responsibility of an adulterated or harmful product - including wrongful death suits.

[MadRocketSci]

i believe e-coli in spinach was traced to a farm that was adjacent to a cattle pasture or something, and was the result of runoff contamination. like mentioned before, a lot of contamination risk comes from poop. saw an episode of the amazing race where the challenge was to milk cows quickly, and during the milking the cows were pooping, kicking, spreading it around. not that that's how it happens in a commercial setting, but i'm sure the risk is there.

But as long as people are at least aware of the risk it's up to them what they want to do. People eat all kinds of stuff with risks associated. I know people who buy raw ground beef and eat it straight from the package as a snack...blech.

[Hardlyrob]

MadRocketSci - agreed. That's why it's illegal to hand milk a cow these days. Have to use the machine and sanitize it between each cow.

Cheers!

Rob

[flydhest]

Rob, I am with you on the points you made, but I don't think they affect the point I was trying (evidently, extremely poorly) to make. There are pathogens in food at times. Government intervention runs the gamut, however, from prohibition to very weak (if any enforcement). What result obtains is only partly (and in my view, given my observation of and participation in the public policy process, "partly" is being generous) the result of good scientific analysis, but very importantly informed by political sway.

The recent e Coli cases were examples, contamination from produce is very, very common and not limited to the recent cases that got attention.

Your points are right on, though, about testing being one route for public safety concerns. I think we are in agreement about risk management being an issue and that there is a nontrivial amount of regulation now. I am just skeptical that, especially in food, the right outcome happens. In general, I think people do not understand risk and risk management and so the political process lends itself to the exploitation of this misunderstanding.

[Hardlyrob]

Flydhest - you are right on. Contamination happens in food. As a denizen of "Big Food" for 25+ years, I have some insights on how it is approached. Generally speaking, the FDA and USDA regulations are used as a "floor" for manufacturing practices. In a sense meeting those regulations is a breathing test for a manufacturer. Having worked at Campbell's for a number of years - possibly the most conservative company out there with respect to labeling and food safety, what most all companies do is WAY beyond what is required by the feds.

The other basic assumption in developing a process and plant layout is that the incoming products ARE contaminated with the most likely problems for that product. The process is then designed to eliminate or absolutely minimize the contamination threat. The real problems come when unexpected contamination - the highly unlikely stuff like glass in rice, or melamine in dried dairy products - shows up. You can't find it if you aren't looking for it.

The reason companies do so much more than the regs require is the value of the brands and the damage to the brand / stock price if something does go wrong. Nobody wants a wrongful death suit in the press, or the very real possibility of going to jail if there is fraud or a cover-up. The peanut guys are an example - they knew they had problems, but didn't correct them because they were on the edge financially. More regulation wouldn't have affected that outcome.

The real challenge that I see is that the supply chains have gotten so tight that there's no time to react if something is found out. With just in time inventories (both for the ingredients, packaging and finished products), sometimes the product is on a truck headed to a supermarket before all the analytics are complete.

Not sure what the right answer is...

Rob

[MadRocketSci]

Not sure what the right answer is...
Rob

Heat everything that goes into your mouth to at least 180 F?

and check for glass particles...

that should do it :banana:

[flydhest]

Indeed, although, I reckon it is a bit more complex than that. (likely a vacuously true statement)
Regulations on meat processing means that there is a bias in favor of large producers.

Regulation is funny stuff. In some industries, satisfying gov't standards insulates the company from fault. There are some forms of regulation that could have changed the peanut outcome, I think, but devil and details and such and how it could have worked is speculation.

I know what the answer is for me, but I can't say that it can work for everyone. I know on a first name basis the people who produce 90 percent of the food we consume at home. I am, however, lucky.

[fiamme red]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/24/raw-milk-debate-heats-up-across-us_n_827655.html

[130R]

"I drink the finest breast milks" - Dave Chappelle

[MadRocketSci]

"I drink the finest breast milks" - Dave Chappelle

throw it in the microwave, or else the FDA sez...

Risks....include exposure to infectious diseases, including HIV, to chemical contaminants, such as some illegal drugs, and to a limited number of prescription drugs that might be in the human milk, if the donor has not been adequately screened. In addition, if human milk is not handled and stored properly, it could, like any type of milk, become contaminated and unsafe to drink.

breast milk ice cream (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/02/25/134056923/breast-milk-ice-cream-a-hit-at-london-store)

at least cows don't do meth....