http://fireflybicycles.com/101#more-101

[MassBiker]

Looks like some of the former IF guys are starting up their own business:
No commentary here, just thought some people might find it interesting!

http://fireflybicycles.com/101#more-101
:beer:

[fourflys]

wow, $3800 for a Ti frame from an, as now, unknown company with the following description...

"We now use the finest 3/2.5 titanium tubing from all over the globe."

I remember some of the cheaper Ti frames getting lambasted for not using US Ti...

they may turn out to be a great frame comparable with other bikes of that price range, but I'd be hard pressed to spend that kind of coin on a frame from a brand new company...

I wish them luck...

[Jawn P]

It's the former employees of IF... hardly unknowns.

[bicycletricycle]

I don't really see how they could be considered "brand new". Seems like it is more like purchasing an IF for less. I have to say that this is great, it is just like when IF formed after FAT was finished.

[fourflys]

there have been tons of offshoots of successful businesses that didn't fair as well... I'm not saying that is the case here, just that Firefly Bicycles is currently unproven in the market... sometimes the synergy of the original crew is lost and the product isn't the same...

on the flip side, the same can be said for the new IF as well... not sure I'd buy one of their frames right now either...

I guess what I'm saying is $3800 is at least $1k too much for a new company when you look at what's available from other builders for under $3k...

anyway, all of this is just my opinion and should properly weighed as such... ;)

[nahtnoj]

wow, $3800 for a Ti frame from an, as now, unknown company with the following description...

"We now use the finest 3/2.5 titanium tubing from all over the globe."

I remember some of the cheaper Ti frames getting lambasted for not using US Ti...

they may turn out to be a great frame comparable with other bikes of that price range, but I'd be hard pressed to spend that kind of coin on a frame from a brand new company...

I wish them luck...

I don't get the attitude.

You know who these guys are right? I guess you missed the part where Tyler has welded over 10,000 frames?

[bicycletricycle]

on the other hand, 4k seems like a lot for a ti frame from anybody to me. The jump from tig welded steel to ti seems to be around 2x but the increased tubing cost/extra wear in tooling/shielding gas doesn't seem to warrant that price gap to me. Maybe if they were polished, that is a real pain in the ass.

if I was in the IF line i would move right over to the Firefly line as soon as i saw a picture of one or two frames.

[fourflys]

I don't get the attitude.

You know who these guys are right? I guess you missed the part where Tyler has welded over 10,000 frames?

simple business theory... change a parameter or two and the end product could be way different...

as I said, the company could turn out better products than before, but at this time that is an unknown... and I personally don't gamble that much on an unknown when there are tons of alternatives...

BTW- 10k frames is a lot, and obviously means the guy can weld but that is but one part of the final product... he also has the added headache of being a part owner and that can be a huge distraction for some people... as I said above, change a parameter or two...

[rugbysecondrow]

I don't get the attitude.

You know who these guys are right? I guess you missed the part where Tyler has welded over 10,000 frames?

3800 is a ton of money though. I can't say whether it is worth it or not, but when a Strong ti is 2800, a Bedford is in the same price range, 3800 is a lot. I don't think that is a knock against anyone, just an observation.

[Lifelover]

Anybody know what the head badge is supposed to be?
http://fireflybicycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/PressRelease.jpg

[bicycletricycle]

it is an even more super super man S

[nahtnoj]

3800 is a ton of money though. I can't say whether it is worth it or not, but when a Strong ti is 2800, a Bedford is in the same price range, 3800 is a lot. I don't think that is a knock against anyone, just an observation.

Agree. Right up there with IF and Spectrum at the top of the market.

Making bikes in Boston never has been and never will be cheap.

[nahtnoj]

simple business theory... change a parameter or two and the end product could be way different...

as I said, the company could turn out better products than before, but at this time that is an unknown... and I personally don't gamble that much on an unknown when there are tons of alternatives...

BTW- 10k frames is a lot, and obviously means the guy can weld but that is but one part of the final product... he also has the added headache of being a part owner and that can be a huge distraction for some people... as I said above, change a parameter or two...

It sounded to me in your OP that you were suggesting there should be some "risk of the unknown" discount, which is why I brought up the extensive fabrication experience.

You are right of course that anything can happen. I'd just rather err on the side of having confidence that they know what they are doing and wish them the best.

[fourflys]

It sounded to me in your OP that you were suggesting there should be some "risk of the unknown" discount, which is why I brought up the extensive fabrication experience.


you are partly right that I feel pricing your product up there with the "big boys" is a bit of risk in my opinion, but it may very well work out for them and I do wish them the best...

meh, time will tell and I'm sure I'll be proven wrong... :beer:

[AngryScientist]

... and wish them the best.

to fourflys point, its two very different things to wish someone the best and pony up close to $4k :D

[bicycletricycle]

They already have pedigree and they are going to use top notch materials and have beautiful welds courtesy of Tyler so the only other variable is branding and the single most important branding tool is decals. Good looking decals seem to add about $1000 dollars to the total cost of a custom frame in today's competitive hand crafted bespoke market.

IMHO

[Lifelover]

I find it interesting that they are not offering any budget oriented build. SS and Ti only.

They maybe well known amongst folks on forums but they will be complete unknowns to 99% of the buying public.

Like anyone setting sail in this storm, I wish them fair winds and a port full of whores and liquor!

[Pegoready]

SS and Ti only.



Prolly to avoid the massive headache of paint.

[rphetteplace]

$3800 - $600 for an Enve fork puts them at $3200 for what appears to be a double butted ti frame, which is competitive to Moots or Ericksen imho. Tyler is a super well respected builder in the industry and I wish them all the best.

[crownjewelwl]

first there are questions about IF losing its soul with its move to nh. now some guys that constituted part of this "soul" are staying put and starting a new gig. and peeps are questioning it. i am confused. so if the guy that designed and welded your IF using the same tubes is now at firefly, shouldn't the firefly whip be just as sweet? just sayin...

sincerely,
an actual IF owner

[OBD]

Anybody know what the head badge is supposed to be?

looks like the letter 'F' to me.

[rugbysecondrow]

first there are questions about IF losing its soul with its move to nh. now some guys that constituted part of this "soul" are staying put and starting a new gig. and peeps are questioning it. i am confused. so if the guy that designed and welded your IF using the same tubes is now at firefly, shouldn't the firefly whip be just as sweet? just sayin...

sincerely,
an actual IF owner

It is still top dollar for a new company. It is not a quality issue but rather a pricepoint one. I have to say that I looked on their site and when I first saw the prices, I was a little surprised. Nobody is insulting these guys and it should not be taken like that.

Paul
Not an IF owner nor a firefly frame ordered.

[crownjewelwl]

It is still top dollar for a new company. It is not a quality issue but rather a pricepoint one. I have to say that I looked on their site and when I first saw the prices, I was a little surprised. Nobody is insulting these guys and it should not be taken like that.

Paul
Not an IF owner nor a firefly frame ordered.

The price point is in-line with IF. Why should they price at a discount? Same materials, same designer, same welder...

It's not like a guy who just learned how to weld in Portland putting up a shingle...just sayin

[ultraman6970]

Do not take me bad for the following comments ok?

How old is this company? I mean, if they are new and need to position in the market at that prices probably they wont be able to do it soon enough. As sooner you put your feet IN, the better.

Love custom machines, and good crafting but even the web site doesn't have pictures of their machines (maybe they have, couldnt find any), I believe them that it will be something top notch but for 4 grands there are a bunch of other stuff in the market also, and the idea is to take a piece of that market already dominated for at least 10 other builders. Positioning and differentiation, key words.

Tig is fast and reliable, so cost should be low also compared with somebody doing tricks and magic brazing lugs and tubes. Specially in the time department.

Wish them the best tho, and hoping to see one of their machines built, I'm curious :)

[rugbysecondrow]

The price point is in-line with IF. Why should they price at a discount? Same materials, same designer, same welder...

It's not like a guy who just learned how to weld in Portland putting up a shingle...just sayin

I think your bias is not allowing you to be objective. From a generic customer perspective, the price is high. If enough folks noticed it and remarked on it, then it likely is the truth.

I hope they do well, competition is good for customers so I like them joining the market.

[crownjewelwl]

I think your bias is not allowing you to be objective. From a generic customer perspective, the price is high. If enough folks noticed it and remarked on it, then it likely is the truth.

I hope they do well, competition is good for customers so I like them joining the market.

Take IF out of the equation. They're priced in-line with most other quality custom Ti bikes. Not a ton of builders are using SS yet...

It's no coincidence that butted custom Ti frames are all priced around the same level. Builders know what other builders are charging. The market isn't large enough to compete on price. Custom Ti frames aren't commodities.

It would be an AWFUL business proposition to lead with price...just sayin

Best,
An unbiased IF owner

p.s. 4 forumites commenting on price isn't much of a data set

[rugbysecondrow]

Ok. We will disagree on this. Theyvwill either make it or not, that will be the only data point that is important.

Take IF out of the equation. They're priced in-line with most other quality custom Ti bikes. Not a ton of builders are using SS yet...

It's no coincidence that butted custom Ti frames are all priced around the same level. Builders know what other builders are charging. The market isn't large enough to compete on price. Custom Ti frames aren't commodities.

It would be an AWFUL business proposition to lead with price...just sayin

Best,
An unbiased IF owner

p.s. 4 forumites commenting on price isn't much of a data set

[ultraman6970]

The price point is in-line with IF. Why should they price at a discount? Same materials, same designer, same welder...

It's not like a guy who just learned how to weld in Portland putting up a shingle...just sayin

I believe you have not considered other things.

[crownjewelwl]

3800 is a ton of money though. I can't say whether it is worth it or not, but when a Strong ti is 2800, a Bedford is in the same price range, 3800 is a lot. I don't think that is a knock against anyone, just an observation.

your comparison isn't apples to apples...

strong butted ti frame is 3200 for just the frame...add an enve fork on top of that and you're in the same range...

and i believe bedford pricing is for steel...just sayin

sloppy due diligence, rugby! :)

[ericspin]

I still want someone to 'splain the head badge shape.

[crownjewelwl]

I believe you have not considered other things.

this is not a university of phoenix on-line mba seminar...don't buy a frame if you don't agree with the price.

i have no idea whether these dudes will be successful but i hope they will be...i have no plans on buying a frame from them anytime soon

but i think the presumption that they should price under the market because they are "new" is simply wrong.

[crownjewelwl]

Ok. We will disagree on this. Theyvwill either make it or not, that will be the only data point that is important.

+10, but the mental masturbation was fun no??

[bike22]

Making bikes in Boston never has been and never will be cheap.
there are plenty others in boston who make bikes for significantly less, although, still at a level which is not cheap for me to afford.

[ultraman6970]

IF is not the only competitor, ligthspeed, or even serotta is one of them.

The main problem is that somehow we as costumers created that HALO which believes that as expensive the bike the better it is, so many are just going asking mickey mouse amounts of cash for 2 days of work in a frame, I understand that there is a charge for knowledge, machinery and prestige, but sincerely a 1500 bucks in a decal is like too much, but people pays for it.

Every manufactured can ask whatever amount of money they want for their job but the cycling community also kind'a screw up themselves creating monsters. Some builders charge 5 to 6 thousand dollars for a job? For me to pay 6 grands you have to include minimum a naked slave chick and braze the bike with gold.

Another important thing i have not seen here in the US is a real war between manufacturers, If was IF i would be all over any new guy trying to take a piece of my cake, how to do it? lowering prices way bellow the new guy (now the sticker cost 500 bucks instead of 1500). The new guy does not stand a chance, In europe and south america is a common practice to just go and crack the new guy, well is being pretty g a y if you ask me but business is business after all.

[bicycletricycle]

i have to say that i really want to see one of these frames. shapes stainless tubing could be pretty nice. I wonder if they are going to be in austin

[Dekonick]

to fourflys point, its two very different things to wish someone the best and pony up close to $4k :D

Yup - for 4k Tom or Kelly would get my Ti work...

[fiamme red]

to fourflys point, its two very different things to wish someone the best and pony up close to $4k :DI'd like to add my good wishes. Good thing that wishes are free. :beer:

[Mikej]

Anybody know what the head badge is supposed to be?
http://fireflybicycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/PressRelease.jpg
I think it is the "ass" of the firefly, or lower abdomen part that actually lights up. Now a battery powered head badge might sway me.....Best of luck, I wish they had some bikes to show.

[cdn_bacon]

Anybody know what the head badge is supposed to be?
http://fireflybicycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/PressRelease.jpg

I've got to say the Top part of a letter "F" and also the bird's eye view of a firely's back end that lights up.

but I could be wayyyy off.

[Tyler Evans]

the bird's eye view of a firely's back end that lights up.

You got it!

[Joachim]

I think once you get above 3k for a frame a few hundered dollars become irrelevant (with fork, without fork etc). No Laborghini owner should complain about gas prices. Also, there are a lot of great builders that can build for less than 3k, but at the same time I would not mind owning a Firefly, Spectrum, Kirk or Anderson.

[fourflys]

$3800 - $600 for an Enve fork puts them at $3200 for what appears to be a double butted ti frame, which is competitive to Moots or Ericksen imho. Tyler is a super well respected builder in the industry and I wish them all the best.


just be fair, a quick net search revealed msrp on a Enve fork to be $480 with most on sale for cheaper...

just sayin'...

[avalonracing]

i have to say that i really want to see one of these frames.

Yeah, me too. But since they currently don't have a single shot of a bike that they have created on their website you'll have to imagine one.

[that guy]

My sources tell me they will be at NAHBS.

[William]

I think it is the "ass" of the firefly, or lower abdomen part that actually lights up. Now a battery powered head badge might sway me.....Best of luck, I wish they had some bikes to show.

Thorax. Or better yet, Thor-Ax Bikes!! :cool: :rolleyes:


For me to pay 6 grands you have to include minimum a naked slave chick and braze the bike with gold.

Who's throwing that in with a frame purchase???? I wanna know!!! ;)




William

[cdn_bacon]

You got it!
Sweet.. I'll take a complimentary 56cm...

Oh wait, there was no contest?

but was the letter F thrown in there? Or happy concidence...

Great logo BTW.

[John M]

Nothing really new to add to the conversation, except to say that IF considers themselves to be a the top of the heap and feels that they can charge at the top of the price range. The Firefly guys have the same talent they did when they were at IF, so why shouldn't they charge the same?

When Kelly Bedford or Dave Wages went on their own, they didn't charge less than Serotta or Waterford for an equivalent level of frame.

[rugbysecondrow]

Nothing really new to add to the conversation, except to say that IF considers themselves to be a the top of the heap and feels that they can charge at the top of the price range. The Firefly guys have the same talent they did when they were at IF, so why shouldn't they charge the same?

When Kelly Bedford or Dave Wages went on their own, they didn't charge less than Serotta or Waterford for an equivalent level of frame.

Yes, Kelly charged, and still charges less for a TIG bedford than Serotta.

[Psyclism]

I'm not a business person, so take what I'm about to say with a huge scoop of salt. But if I were to start a business in a niche market that is already saturated with high end premium options, I'd find it imperative that I differentiate my products from the others as well as get as much of my product out in the real world as possible. I'd introduce my brand at a very competitive price. Rely on the excitement of my customers to convey the quality of my work. After the brand has been established, then I'd start to raise prices to bring them into parity with that of my intended competition.

You have to build a brand and a following, especially in something as fickle as the custom bike market. Good word of mouth sells bikes. Happy owners waxing poetic about their pride and joy on forums like this sells bikes. PHOTOS of the product sells bikes. Saying "I worked here" might peak the interest of some potential customers, but really, as a consumer, if I wanted a bike that rides or is built like an IF and was priced the same as an IF, well, I'd just buy an IF. The reason IF was a success from the start is that the Fat Chance brand disappeared. Fat Chance was highly regarded, and if someone wanted a frame of that caliber, they knew where to go. They (IF) sort of inherited a ready made client base.

Take Baum is an example. If memory serves correctly, his frames, initially, weren't priced all that high. He built a stellar reputation by selling gorgeous stuff, and as a result, can now command ultra-premium prices. And people will happily pay it as they KNOW what they're going to get.

As a consumer, I wouldn't be in the least bit willing to sign away $3800 of my hard earned money on a frame I've never seen an example of, from a company that might be gone this time next year. I'd be much more likely to gamble $2500. As a manufacturer, I'd consider the loss of profit "advertising costs" as that's pretty much what it would be... discounting the rides of early adopters so that they'll be rolling and vocal billboards for your product would be money well spent.

My $.02.

[firerescuefin]

I'm not a business person, so take what I'm about to say with a huge scoop of salt. But if I were to start a business in a niche market that is already saturated with high end premium options, I'd find it imperative that I differentiate my products from the others as well as get as much of my product out in the real world as possible. I'd introduce my brand at a very competitive price. Rely on the excitement of my customers to convey the quality of my work. After the brand has been established, then I'd start to raise prices to bring them into parity with that of my direct competitors.

You have to build a brand and a following, especially in something as fickle as the custom bike market. Good word of mouth sells bikes. Happy owners waxing poetic about their pride and joy on forums like this sells bikes. PHOTOS of the product sells bikes. Saying "I worked here" might peak the interest of some potential customers, but really, as a consumer, if I wanted a bike that rides or is built like an IF and was priced the same as an IF, well, I'd just buy an IF. The reason IF was a success from the start is that the Fat Chance brand disappeared. Fat Chance was highly regarded, and if someone wanted a frame of that caliber, they knew where to go. They (IF) sort of inherited a ready made client base.

Take Baum is an example. If memory serves correctly, his frames, initially, weren't priced all that high. He built a stellar reputation by selling gorgeous stuff, and as a result, can now command ultra-premium prices. And people will happily pay it as they KNOW what they're going to get.

As a consumer, I wouldn't be in the least bit willing to sign away $3800 of my hard earned money on a frame I've never seen an example of, from a company that might be gone this time next year. I'd be much more likely to gamble $2500. Consider the loss of profit "advertising costs" as that's pretty much what you're doing. Discounting the rides of early adopters so that they'll be rolling and vocal billboards for your product.

My $.02.


+10

To their existing fan base (selected IF folks)...that pricepoint may work. For others weighing them against established BUSINESSES/BRANDS, they have a hard road ahead IMO. I would not consider them right now (at that pricepoint).

[54ny77]

henceforth it shall be decreed that every new or existing bicycle-related company must submit their business plan to internet bike forums for scrutiny before commencing (or continuing) business operations, because we know best. :bike:

[bicycletricycle]

wouldn't be a terrible idea, we are their target market.

henceforth it shall be decreed that every new or existing bicycle-related company must submit their business plan to internet bike forums for scrutiny before commencing (or continuing) business operations, because we know best. :bike:

[Lifelover]

I don't get the attitude.

You know who these guys are right? I guess you missed the part where Tyler has welded over 10,000 frames?


Impressive. That works out to 2 a day working a 6 day week for the last 15 years.

Compare that to 4 a month for the top lugged guy. I guess welding is faster than brazing. ;)

I also find it interesting that in the Bios they don't mention what company(ies) they worked for. Seems like that would add a little legitimacy for anyone that does not know who they are.

[Psyclism]

Impressive. That works out to 2 a day working a 6 day week for the last 15 years.

Compare that to 4 a month for the top lugged guy. I guess welding is faster than brazing. ;)


And at $3800 a frame, that's one man who's singularly responsible for 38 MILLION dollars in product. Doubly impressive.

[Lifelover]

henceforth it shall be decreed that every new or existing bicycle-related company must submit their business plan to internet bike forums for scrutiny before commencing (or continuing) business operations, because we know best. :bike:

So would that over ride the current decree that every new or existing bicycle-related company that has ever posted on this forum or across the hall can do no wrong?

[William]

henceforth it shall be decreed that every new or existing bicycle-related company must submit their business plan to internet bike forums for scrutiny before commencing (or continuing) business operations, because we know best. :bike:

Nah. But, we are the ones with the money who can throw it their way...or not. So whether the builders like it or not, our opinions, forum talk, and feelings on the matter have weight. The consumer will do the talking and their outcome will depend on how it fleshes out.

Best of luck to them in their endeavor.



William

[firerescuefin]

henceforth it shall be decreed that every new or existing bicycle-related company must submit their business plan to internet bike forums for scrutiny before commencing (or continuing) business operations, because we know best. :bike:

Agree with other posts above...we are their target market, and most (other than the existing IF fans) are balking. I am considering a f/f in that price range....from someone whose business is more established. Why should I pay a premium to assume their risk.

[PaMtbRider]

As a consumer, I wouldn't be in the least bit willing to sign away $3800 of my hard earned money on a frame I've never seen an example of, from a company that might be gone this time next year.

My $.02.

I think this is a key point. I don't know much about the guys were talking about but it sounds like they know how to weld a bike. That doesn't mean they are good business men. There is a lot more that goes into a successful business than being able to produce a quality product. I wish them the best and hope they are around for a long time.

[54ny77]

No. I'm putting out some bad satire.

What I'm getting at is that unless any of us have welded, gorilla-glued, zip-tied or otherwise built a bike or ran a framebuilding or bike retail/wholesale business, we have absolutely no friggin' idea what we're talking about other than saying out of our ass, "Gee, that's [expensive] [a fair deal] or [cheap]."

Which as a consumer is our "right" of course...

Maybe $3800 is priced fair and earns a builder single/double digit returns on the investment required to get the business up & running. Somehow, I doubt that. People tend to forget there's this minor issue of food, utilities, rent/mortgage, health insurance, liability insurance, supplier costs, inventory costs, and a littany of costs associated with running a small business. Not to mention paying yourself a decent wage/salary.

Say a builder does 3-5 frames a month, and nets $1k profit per. Awesome. That leaves them with maybe $4-5k pre-tax net, from which they gotta eat & live. And buy materials. And have something set aside to cover any float for whatever needs floatin'. Then Uncle Samuel comes and says thanks very much around April after the schedule K-1 is completed. Oh that's ALWAYS a good time...

Multiply that figure tenfold or more for the "bigger" custom shops, and what's the staffing & infrastructure required to feed that beast? Awesome, still sounds like ramen for everyone. Maybe some meat protein thrown in every now & then with the noodles.

Some builders my be great builders but horrific businessmen. That adage would apply for anyone. For example, just because you're a great community activist, doesn't mean you're a great president.

(ducking....:p)

So would that over ride the current decree that every new or existing bicycle-related company that has ever posted on this forum or across the hall can do no wrong?

[Mark McM]

I'm not a business person, so take what I'm about to say with a huge scoop of salt. But if I were to start a business in a niche market that is already saturated with high end premium options, I'd find it imperative that I differentiate my products from the others as well as get as much of my product out in the real world as possible. I'd introduce my brand at a very competitive price. Rely on the excitement of my customers to convey the quality of my work. After the brand has been established, then I'd start to raise prices to bring them into parity with that of my intended competition.

This might be a bit of a trap for a brand that intends to be presented as a premium product. Customers often percieve a lower priced product to be inferior (regardless of whether it really is or not), so offering their frames at a lower price might actually be shooting themselves in the foot if they want to position their frames as a top-notch brand.

You have to build a brand and a following, especially in something as fickle as the custom bike market. Good word of mouth sells bikes. Happy owners waxing poetic about their pride and joy on forums like this sells bikes.

One method often employed to for new brands or products is to identify individuals who are trend-setters (people who's position or image can influence others in their peer groups), and offering initial discounts to these people to get the products in their hands. For high-end bicycle frames, these trend setters might be local hot-shot racers, well read blog posters, etc.

In other words, a somewhat more judicial use of your strategy. Keep the standard price at the level needed to fit into the intended market space, but sell a few units at a discounted price to specifically targetted individuals who can get your product noticed in the public eye.

[bicycletricycle]

I like bicycles and I hope that their bicycles are amazing and super beautiful so that when I see someone on one I can be like "WOW, that bike is so AWESOME!"

[Psyclism]

Say a builder does 3-5 frames a month, and nets $1k profit per. Awesome. That leaves them with maybe $4-5k pre-tax net, from which they gotta eat & live. And buy materials. And have something set aside to cover any float for whatever needs floatin'. Then Uncle Samuel comes and says thanks very much around April after the schedule K-1 is completed. Oh that's ALWAYS a good time...


Ok. So this particular builder nets 1k per frame and builds 3-5 a month. If the same builder reduced his price $500, obviously cutting his per unit profit in half, but in doing so increased sales which tripled or quadrupled his output, then he'd suddenly 1: have even more money in his pocket at the end of the month 2: get more product on the street to drive future demand and 3: stay busy. Once queued orders and anticipated demand begins to meet or exceed maximum output, the price per unit can start to creep up to 1: increase profits further and 2: trim the demand to a manageable level.

I've never understood the "boutique" business model. Having absurdly overpriced items that *maybe* 1 out of 100 shoppers purchases rather than cutting your per unit profit in half and selling the same item to 10 out of every 100 customers just doesn't compute in my head.

[ultraman6970]

:hello:

[gdw]

"People tend to forget there's this minor issue of food, utilities, rent/mortgage, health insurance, liability insurance, supplier costs, inventory costs, and a littany of costs associated with running a small business. Not to mention paying yourself a decent wage/salary."

Some of us have started successful businesses and know what it takes.... and a decent wage/salary rarely is earned in the first or second year. I wish these guys well but the questions raised here are legit. $3800 is an awful lot of dough for a frame from a start-up regardless of the builders pedigree. Methinks they would be wise to offer a one time off-season discount on their first frames to generate some attention.

[crownjewelwl]

Ok. So this particular builder nets 1k per frame and builds 3-5 a month. If the same builder reduced his price $500, obviously cutting his per unit profit in half, but in doing so increased sales which tripled or quadrupled his output, then he'd suddenly 1: have even more money in his pocket at the end of the month 2: get more product on the street to drive future demand and 3: stay busy. Once queued orders and anticipated demand begins to meet or exceed maximum output, the price per unit can start to creep up to 1: increase profits further and 2: trim the demand to a manageable level.

I've never understood the "boutique" business model. Having absurdly overpriced items that *maybe* 1 out of 100 shoppers purchases rather than cutting your per unit profit in half and selling the same item to 10 out of every 100 customers.

did u dudes sleep through econ 101? does the term "price elasticity" mean anything to you? :banana:

[fourflys]

did u dudes sleep through econ 101? does the term "price elasticity" mean anything to you? :banana:


too true, the proof will be in the pudding when the market decides what they are worth... and frames are certainly an elastic good and fall to the whims of the consumer...

Good Luck Firefly, I wish you the best...

[Uncle Jam's Army]

did u dudes sleep through econ 101? does the term "price elasticity" mean anything to you? :banana:

I don't know about you, but if these guys offered me a SS frame + Enve fork for, say, $2800, my demand would be highly elastic.

[ultraman6970]

:d

[crownjewelwl]

:d

now let's all talk about how we take our eggs!!!

[bicycletricycle]

now let's all talk about how we take our eggs!!!


I super hate eggs

[old fat man]

welders at another ti/steel tig shop in watertown, ma are expected to turn out no less than 10/week and many can do 15+ in a week. not to say 10,000 doesn't seem high, but 10 a week is completely within reason for a tig welder at a similar shop.

Impressive. That works out to 2 a day working a 6 day week for the last 15 years.

Compare that to 4 a month for the top lugged guy. I guess welding is faster than brazing. ;)

I also find it interesting that in the Bios they don't mention what company(ies) they worked for. Seems like that would add a little legitimacy for anyone that does not know who they are.

[John M]

I also find it interesting that in the Bios they don't mention what company(ies) they worked for. Seems like that would add a little legitimacy for anyone that does not know who they are.

I am not an insider on this, but based on some things I have seen elsewhere on the internet regarding the changes at IF, the use of the IF name might be endorsed by the current IF owners.

[Jack Brunk]

I can't take them seriously if they can't build a 29er mountain frame. Really?

[Tyler Evans]

I can't take them seriously if they can't build a 29er mountain frame. Really?

MTB frames coming in May. About a third of the frames I've welded have been MTB's and a third of those have bee 29'ers, you can run the numbers.

Pictures of finished road and cross frames coming after NAHBS. I'm still working on finishing up the photo studio in our work shop.

BTW: Old Fat Man knows what's up, it's been an easy 10,000. Well not always easy but easily that amount (based on my running tab it's been more than that).

XOXO, Tyler.

[bicycletricycle]

I am excited to see the frames, wish i was going to texas.

[Jack Brunk]

MTB frames coming in May. About a third of the frames I've welded have been MTB's and a third of those have bee 29'ers, you can run the numbers.

Pictures of finished road and cross frames coming after NAHBS. I'm still working on finishing up the photo studio in our work shop.

BTW: Old Fat Man knows what's up, it's been an easy 10,000. Well not always easy but easily that amount (based on my running tab it's been more than that).

XOXO, Tyler.
Cool. Since you've welded so many shouldn't they be available if I want one now? Just asking and I've owned a couple of your works and they've been bitchin.

[soulspinner]

MTB frames coming in May. About a third of the frames I've welded have been MTB's and a third of those have bee 29'ers, you can run the numbers.

Pictures of finished road and cross frames coming after NAHBS. I'm still working on finishing up the photo studio in our work shop.

BTW: Old Fat Man knows what's up, it's been an easy 10,000. Well not always easy but easily that amount (based on my running tab it's been more than that).

XOXO, Tyler.

Im wishin ya well and feel you buy the people behind the product. You guys have a superb rep and I wouldnt hesitate with you. I would opt to go there in person, though, with all the new shops you will deal with. Any plans to paint either of these frames or those in the future?

[maddog17]

The price point is in-line with IF. Why should they price at a discount? Same materials, same designer, same welder...

It's not like a guy who just learned how to weld in Portland putting up a shingle...just sayin


so if a guy who worked at Ferrari hangs his shingle to build high end sports cars does that mean he gets to charge what Ferrari does? i wish them all the luck in the world but starting out high doesn't seem right regardless of where they came from

[Jawn P]

The douchiness in this thread is at a record high.

Good job Firefly doing something positive in real life instead of complaining on the internet about it.

[Louis]

so if a guy who worked at Ferrari hangs his shingle to build high end sports cars does that mean he gets to charge what Ferrari does?

For obvious reasons I don't buy this analogy. Bikes = Ferrari? I wish.

[Joachim]

I wonder if I can get on their list. Tyler? :cool:

[crownjewelwl]

so if a guy who worked at Ferrari hangs his shingle to build high end sports cars does that mean he gets to charge what Ferrari does? i wish them all the luck in the world but starting out high doesn't seem right regardless of where they came from

I really don't mean to be rude, but that is about the most irrelevant comparison you could make.

Fortunately or unfortunately, there isn't a ton of intellectual property around welding ti and ss bikes. It's about craftsmaship and perfection. So yes, I would pay the same amount for a bike designed and welded by the same guy that designed and welded my bike at IF using the same tubes. The only difference is the head badge.

And no one seems to give Firefly credit for using shaped tubes. Manipulated tubes have to be more expensive.

I'm done pontificating...just don't buy one if you don't want one...plain and simple...

P.S. I love raw cow's milk...

[SEABREEZE]

I own both IF TI & SEROTTA TI. Love them equally, If you built my IF Tyler, I truly enjoy riding it.

Lots of opinions how you should introduce your product to market, so I am not going there.

Ultimitely its your business, your decisions which will eventually having you sucessful or failing on marketing your product...

Wishing you, Firefly, and its brother Lightning Bug the best.

[firerescuefin]

The douchiness in this thread is at a record high.

Good job Firefly doing something positive in real life instead of complaining on the internet about it.


That's one way to look at it. The other would be the target market is giving Tyler some feedback. Pretty nice for free. I do not think I saw one post that was not supportive of the company itself...just people questioning entering the market at its (fireflys) current pricepoint. I wish Tyler and Firefly the best of luck. I love custom bicycles....can't wait to see his builds in the custom bike forum.

[rugbysecondrow]

The douchiness in this thread is at a record high.

Good job Firefly doing something positive in real life instead of complaining on the internet about it.

The irony of your post is not lost on me..

[BobbyJones]

Impressive. That works out to 2 a day working a 6 day week for the last 15 years.

Compare that to 4 a month for the top lugged guy. I guess welding is faster than brazing. ;)



Since we're throwing out numbers and nitpicking- It clearly says "welded". I'm no pro, but welding (or brazing) is a small part (timewise) of taking a frame from a customer's want to the customer's hand.

Someone else was right about the douchiness factor in this thread. Let's face it, the quality and price are the last things these guys need to worry about. They're gonna kill it.

Framebulding, however, seems like a tough business. And for that I wish them luck.

[Fixed]

i saw a 10000 dollar i.f. today at a bike store
cheers

[Dave B]

You guys do realize you are discussing prices on a forum hosted by a compnay with a frame that cost more then double Firefly's highest costing frame right and most other companies most expensive full bike, not to mention the other frames here that have price tags above $4K.

Why should they sell for cheaper, cause they have a new name? Call them IF 2.0 if it makes you feel better.

Two months ago those of you who would have purchased an IF wouldn't have minded paying the money and these 3 guys would have done most of the work on your bike sans paint.

Tyler and Jamie are responsible for many of the models IF now sells and has won awards for. Corvid, TiFLW, etc are the fruits of their ideas and hard work.

I have supported IF for years and I still do, I want them to succeed like few others. Additionally in that time I have gotten to know a lot of the folks there through constant contact. Tyler is a pal and I as well as other have known this has been a dream of his for a long time. His craft has been refined and his skills polished over many years. There are few and I mean few who share his skills with Ti. Jamie is also so incredibly talented and both have had their hands in the bikes I have purchased over the years and I am fortunate for their hard work.

They chose not to follow IF for their own reason and I can respect that. Now I cannot imagine two individuals starting a new company with more combined experience as well as top notch skill. These guys helped make IF great and I have every confidence that their new venture will produce a tremendous quality in a frame.

They are charging a premium for their frames and that is what you will get, a premium frame. I can understand some might feel sticker shock, I too cannot afford their frames as badly as I want to. Maybe some day...however I have no doubt if you make the commitment you will be met with the highest level of service and a bike you will be incredibly satisfied with.

I guess many have said it, no one is forcing you to purchase this, just be open minded.

Cheers all.

[pbjbike]

Since we're throwing out numbers and nitpicking- It clearly says "welded". I'm no pro, but welding (or brazing) is a small part (timewise) of taking a frame from a customer's want to the customer's hand.

Someone else was right about the douchiness factor in this thread. Let's face it, the quality and price are the last things these guys need to worry about. They're gonna kill it.

Framebulding, however, seems like a tough business. And for that I wish them luck.

+1 Well said.

[crownjewelwl]

http://www.bikerumor.com/2011/02/20/race-to-nahbs-adhd-interview-11-nahbs-related-questions-for-firefly-bicycles/#more-28006

[rugbysecondrow]

This is a brand new company with no branded bikes in circulation. If I buy a bike from them, how much faith do I have that they will be around in one year, 5 years etc if there is a product or service issue? To compare them to Serotta is pretty silly IMO. You can't compare a start-up company, regardless of their talent, to a company that has been around for decades and providing quality product and service during that time. This is not horribly complicated. For Mr. President, you are a fan of IF and I can respect that. View this from the perspective of just some dude who wants a new TI bike. He doesn't know, doesn't care and wouldn't know the IF history nor would he know Tyler or anybody else if he saw them on the street. As a fan, as an person with much knowledge, it is easy for you to see the value. For a new customer trying to decide between Seven, Moots, Serotta, Lynsky...you get my point right? It is a hard market. I hope they do well, sincerely.

I respect people follow their dreams, put their balls on the chopping block like they have. I also respect what you say about their value and their quality, but you have to see the other side. For somebody not in the "know" a consumer has to justfy the price to themselves. The newness of a company impacts that IMO.

EDIT: I will add that I think their website looks better now than when I first looked at it. I am not certain if it was my mood or maybe they weren't 100% live with the site, but it looks much better now and much more professional.



You guys do realize you are discussing prices on a forum hosted by a compnay with a frame that cost more then double Firefly's highest costing frame right and most other companies most expensive full bike, not to mention the other frames here that have price tags above $4K.

Why should they sell for cheaper, cause they have a new name? Call them IF 2.0 if it makes you feel better.

Two months ago those of you who would have purchased an IF wouldn't have minded paying the money and these 3 guys would have done most of the work on your bike sans paint.

Tyler and Jamie are responsible for many of the models IF now sells and has won awards for. Corvid, TiFLW, etc are the fruits of their ideas and hard work.

I have supported IF for years and I still do, I want them to succeed like few others. Additionally in that time I have gotten to know a lot of the folks there through constant contact. Tyler is a pal and I as well as other have known this has been a dream of his for a long time. His craft has been refined and his skills polished over many years. There are few and I mean few who share his skills with Ti. Jamie is also so incredibly talented and both have had their hands in the bikes I have purchased over the years and I am fortunate for their hard work.

They chose not to follow IF for their own reason and I can respect that. Now I cannot imagine two individuals starting a new company with more combined experience as well as top notch skill. These guys helped make IF great and I have every confidence that their new venture will produce a tremendous quality in a frame.

They are charging a premium for their frames and that is what you will get, a premium frame. I can understand some might feel sticker shock, I too cannot afford their frames as badly as I want to. Maybe some day...however I have no doubt if you make the commitment you will be met with the highest level of service and a bike you will be incredibly satisfied with.

I guess many have said it, no one is forcing you to purchase this, just be open minded.

Cheers all.

[oldmill]

But like many custom builders, they're probably not targeting some one who isn't "in the know." And Rugby I see your point, but I don't know that any company will be around in five years (See: Bear Stearns, Lehman, et al).

[rugbysecondrow]

But like many custom builders, they're probably not targeting some one who isn't "in the know." And Rugby I see your point, but I don't know that any company will be around in five years (See: Bear Stearns, Lehman, et al).


Agreed. I guess I view them as less a custom builder in the "one man shop" sense and more of a frame building company that does custom bikes. My only point with regard to that is that with a Serotta for instance, you buy a frame, but you buy the service and the reputation they have earned along with it. A new company does not have that yet. What Serotta has is worth something in the market, just like Waterford, Moots and others. What that "something" is will be up to the individual consumer to decide. For every guy who wants the security of company with history there is likely another who enjoys the buzz of have one of the first bikes from new company or builder. To each their own. :beer:

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . and with no product whatsoever portrayed on the site, I would be extremely reluctant to purchase a frame from them on any basis other than reputation of the individuals and references from others.

But maybe that's exactly what they are counting on for the fist year of business. There are doubtless cognescenti who WILL purchase a frame from them ASAP because of the personal reputations and for the cool factor of having one of the first few.

But that act is not going to work in the long term. Given the timing of their initial announcement so close to NAHBS, if they have a roll-out plan I hope it includes a full selection of product at NAHBS and a media blitz to cycling media or else I would think they have a problem. They gotta get some art of some actual bikes with that cool head badge on them on their web site . . . and soon.

BBD

[1centaur]

I have enjoyed this thread because it pretty much shows all sides of what is a very difficult decision: pricing.

Pricing sends a message to customers, and as with all messages, it can be misconstrued. Businesses need to be wise about sending a message that's difficult to misconstrue (the website is the first place to hone that message finely). As we know, many possible buyers will say no based on price and perceived message alone. They don't have the time, interest or knowledge to tease out every nuance of value/quality/prestige in order to compare across comparable products, say Ti frames. For cycling products especially there's a high emotional/intuitive component in the buying decision: how do I feel about this product's place in the pantheon of cycling? Likewise many cycling product manufacturers are not classic green eye shade business people - they are focused more on the product than the business and feel something about where they stand in the pantheon of cycling products.

The classic recipe for new entrant business success, in my trademarked opinion (IMTO), in order of odds of success, is:

1) Better and less expensive

2) Less Expensive

3) Better.

I'll leave it up to the prior posts on this thread to figure out where Firefly fits on this scale.

[Lifelover]

Since we're throwing out numbers and nitpicking- It clearly says "welded". I'm no pro, but welding (or brazing) is a small part (timewise) of taking a frame from a customer's want to the customer's hand.

Someone else was right about the douchiness factor in this thread. Let's face it, the quality and price are the last things these guys need to worry about. They're gonna kill it.

Framebulding, however, seems like a tough business. And for that I wish them luck.

FYI

My stab was at the brazing number not the welding number. A single bike frame might constitute 12" of weld length? 2 a day is not a stretch. I don't doubt that Tyler could cut, prep and weld 2 a day.

It's the 4 a month that is out of line.

It's the "Victim-ness" in this thread that seems to have reached an all time high. I suspect Tyler and company will make it just fine without your protection.

[SEABREEZE]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Chothen (/http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Chothen)

TYLER's handle is Chothen One


From what I just read its the exreme of both good or bad..


From his reputation @ IF, It appears he may be saying , he is the extreme good at framebuilding. Then again it could reflect many other things he fills he's extremly good or bad at.

[Climb01742]

The classic recipe for new entrant business success, in my trademarked opinion (IMTO), in order of odds of success, is:

1) Better and less expensive

2) Less Expensive

3) Better.


it may be a semantic distinction (as in a sub-set of 'better') but i'd add one element to your matrix: easier. or perhaps 'same price but easier'. the web has made ease a key ingredient in success. as an example, my main reason for buying books on amazon is one-click ordering.

[1centaur]

If the entire retail world was on the web than a physical store might be "better" for some customers.

Also, arguably, Amazon is less expensive even without discounts because it removes the costs of gasoline and time. One-click ordering is an extension of that.

I view the Net as the poster child for #1 in retail: Better and less expensive (discounts) in many cases and just Better with lower frictional costs (Competitive Cyclist) in many others.

[Dave B]

This is a brand new company with no branded bikes in circulation. If I buy a bike from them, how much faith do I have that they will be around in one year, 5 years etc if there is a product or service issue? To compare them to Serotta is pretty silly IMO. You can't compare a start-up company, regardless of their talent, to a company that has been around for decades and providing quality product and service during that time. This is not horribly complicated. For Mr. President, you are a fan of IF and I can respect that. View this from the perspective of just some dude who wants a new TI bike. He doesn't know, doesn't care and wouldn't know the IF history nor would he know Tyler or anybody else if he saw them on the street. As a fan, as an person with much knowledge, it is easy for you to see the value. For a new customer trying to decide between Seven, Moots, Serotta, Lynsky...you get my point right? It is a hard market. I hope they do well, sincerely.

I respect people follow their dreams, put their balls on the chopping block like they have. I also respect what you say about their value and their quality, but you have to see the other side. For somebody not in the "know" a consumer has to justfy the price to themselves. The newness of a company impacts that IMO.

EDIT: I will add that I think their website looks better now than when I first looked at it. I am not certain if it was my mood or maybe they weren't 100% live with the site, but it looks much better now and much more professional.


That is a great point or two.

I don't know business and there are some great ideas here and valid ones either pro or con.

While I don't know business I do know people. I hope these guys can help put fears to rest with their work.

Good stuff folks, keep the ideas flowing.

[Ahneida Ride]

so if a guy who worked at Ferrari hangs his shingle to build high end sports cars does that mean he gets to charge what Ferrari does? i wish them all the luck in the world but starting out high doesn't seem right regardless of where they came from

Well yes ... but no-one really builds Ferrari's. It takes a eclectic group
to accomplished this.

These guys build the frame and the frame only. Not the wheels, components
tires, bar wrap, etc. They don't build the bike. (aka Ferrari)

... Kinda like the Ferrari group that builds the engines.
Now if that group that builds the Ferrari engines hung out a shield
to build engines ....

.... well people could be interested.

[Ahneida Ride]

I wish these guys the best ...

A new business tis resplendent with hidden costs.

God Speed ....

[BumbleBeeDave]

Here's a short interview on BikeRumor . . .

http://www.bikerumor.com/2011/02/20/race-to-nahbs-adhd-interview-11-nahbs-related-questions-for-firefly-bicycles/#more-28006

They are going to be there but they are not showing any product.

Yet there's a pic of what they apparently do have to show--t-shirts, head badges, and key fobs.

Uh, guys? . . . you need to start actually welding . . . :crap:

BBD

[fourflys]

... Kinda like the Ferrari group that builds the engines.
Now if that group that builds the Ferrari engines hung out a shield
to build engines ....

.... well people could be interested.

true, but would they immediately be able to charge what the engine stamped Ferrari sells for? My guess is no, but I have been wrong before...

that's a great comparison BTW... :beer:

[Ahneida Ride]

true, but would they immediately be able to charge what the engine stamped Ferrari sells for? My guess is no, but I have been wrong before...


Good point .... maybe ... may be not .. it depends all on the reputation.
Public perception ....

[moran]

I wish these guys luck, I hope they sell lots of frames. But it takes more than selling frames to turn a profit and from my understanding last year was the first that IF actually made a positive return. All 3 of these guys are from IF. Granted...Kevin was only there for maybe 2-3 years?

I hope Tyler and Jamie learned something in their time at IF about how run a profitable venture. I say that sincerely.

[SEABREEZE]

Here's a short interview on BikeRumor . . .

http://www.bikerumor.com/2011/02/20/race-to-nahbs-adhd-interview-11-nahbs-related-questions-for-firefly-bicycles/#more-28006

They are going to be there but they are not showing any product.

Yet there's a pic of what they apparently do have to show--t-shirts, head badges, and key fobs.

Uh, guys? . . . you need to start actually welding . . . :crap:

BBD


Dave in the same article it says they just started the business in Jan.

I am not one to answer this, but is it possible to have bikes ready for NAHBS when you just formed your business the month prior, taking into consideration all thats involved from a business startup standpoint, and then actuallly begining design, production, paint etc. of the product your company represents.

Also there is something I would like to repeat that I said in a earlier post.

Its there venture capital, there dream, there understanding of what end product they are going to produce, there discisions alone on how they introduce there product to market, that will have them succeed or fail.

There are many sucessful business folks here on the form that put forth there opinions, experience, wisdom, etc. The Firefly folks are following this thread, now its up to them to decide if any of that knowledge is warrant to follow, and have there product coming in at its price point, as a start up company.. They alone will live or die by it with there own capital on the line..

We dont really know what there marketing stratergy is going to be, we do know they set a price, perhaps they will offer the first 25 customers a special deal, to get there bikes out there, and let word of mouth do the rest...

I truly wish them the best.

[David Kirk]

There seems to be some frustration that the new guys with the new company don't have new gear to show at NAHBS or on their website.

Frankly - given the timing I would have been shocked if they had hard-goods to show or sell. Going from having nothing to having even a skeleton shop to make a few one offs is a large undertaking and it takes time. The really easy part is taking your new logo and putting it into a website and onto Tshirts. This kind of stuff can be done in a few days.

But having a building that one can work in, the basic tools one would need to make a few show bikes, AND (this is the big one) have the tubes you need to build your new brand of bikes can take a long time. When you couple that with the unfortunate timing of NAHBS happening NOW and the seasonal focus on stuff like this and you can understand how they would have a very hard time getting show bikes into a show booth in a matter of a month.

I think the big long term issue is one of both profitability and cash flow (one without the other is worthless). Profit and cash flow are NOT needed in the short term or even in the longer term if someone has deep pockets. There are many companies out there that don't make a profit but someone scrap by and pay their people and that can be enough for awhile. But unless someone has too much money and is willing to burn it to keep the company afloat you can't stay at it past the initial burning of the small biz loan.

This is a long and awkward way of saying that I hope they can find their way to profit.

I wish them the best. They will need hard work and smarts and more than a bit of luck. Now is not the best time to be jumping in.

Dave

[Charles M]

The in-out of internet...

No new company does a good enough job of creating a good enough web face fast enough...

But then again, you can drop "fast enough" because on the web there are plenty of people that are impossible to satisfy.

Professional Bike makers are no match for professional Web complainers.

One has to make things and the other just has to make things up :)



I'm happy another guy is making a go of it. I'll be happy to see what they produce. I'm not unhappy that they didnt create a branding image in less time than it takes to cook a pop tart.

[rugbysecondrow]

The in-out of internet...

No new company does a good enough job of creating a good enough web face fast enough...

But then again, you can drop "fast enough" because on the web there are plenty of people that are impossible to satisfy.

Professional Bike makers are no match for professional Web complainers.

One has to make things and the other just has to make things up :)



I'm happy another guy is making a go of it. I'll be happy to see what they produce. I'm not unhappy that they didnt create a branding image in less time than it takes to cook a pop tart.

what you call web complainers I call potential customers.

[Climb01742]

what you call web complainers I call potential customers.

i'd be curious what the true overlap is between the skeptical and the buyers. at the beginning, to be a customer of a new builder is a bit of a leap of faith. you talk with them and you get a vibe, a rapport, a trust, based mostly on words, not frames. i say this as someone who bought david kirk's 9th and 12th frames. and one recently with a much bigger number. the leap was more than worth it.

[drewski]

Anybody know what the head badge is supposed to be?
http://fireflybicycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/PressRelease.jpg


I wish them luck. ***. If you are going to dream, why bother fartin around.