Any better???

[shinomaster]

So I got a 130mm stem to replace the 110 I had two weeks ago. I also flipped it over and lowered my position. I still looked a bit cramped in the drops..does my position look any better?? My lower back hurt in the new position. I can't imagine riding on a 3cm longer bike! :crap: :argue:

[shinomaster]

I look like a amature in the drops....Rats...

[1centaur]

I'm no expert, but I figured since I stared at these pictures for 5 minutes I would take a shot.

My only standard is what I see on TV or in magazines or catalogs - i.e., mostly pro racers or people in "fit" articles demonstrating the proper position. That says nothing of your flexibility or unique physical traits.

My first instinct was to ask if your saddle was far enough back, but I evolved to thinking the whole bike looks a little small. If I was concerned with how my position looked and that was my only bike choice, I would consider lots of stretching for many weeks, lots of core strength work if I was worried about abdominal support for my back, and working out my position on the trainer for 30 minutes at a time.

If I just wanted to enjoy cycling, I probably would not bother with any of that because your position does not look particularly wrong in the first place.

[tch]

Drop your stomach towards the top tube. You still have a big hunch in your back, and I think it is the position of your hips on the seat.

...And, I still think your bike looks too small...

[Adam]

Shino

You are not pivoting on your hips and keeping a neutral spine. Your shoulders are rounded in the drops...

Find your sweet spot on the saddle and pivot on your sit bones so that your hips rotate forward...they are still up and you are slouching as you reach for the bars...

Adam

[Dave]

Got any reference dimensions, like the vertical distance from the saddle to the top of the bars? Something in the 8-10cm range would be pretty common. As for the reach to the bars, avoiding knee to arm interference when your hands are in the drops and your upper back is horizontal is a valid check for sufficient length. In your picture riding in the drops, you need a bit of bend in the arms to get the upper back lower - it's not nearly horizontal. Then check for knee to arm interference.

Another reference check that has no functional value is the old "handlebars obscuring the view of the front hub". I'm playing with my position a bit right now and deliberately moved my saddle forward 1.5-2.0cm (and up 6mm) from a far-back position, to a more common "neutral" KOP. Without changing the length of the stem, I was obviously cramped and looking over the front of the bars at the front hub, when riding in the drops. I only rode this way once to get a feel for the change to my pedaling, before buying a longer stem. Now I'm fine tuning the height of the stem.

[flydhest]

I agree with everyone's comments on the hips. Once you do that, you won't feel like you're reaching at all. You'll be able to bend your elbows.

Are you sure your saddle's high enough?

Nice trackstand, by the way.

[Ken Robb]

how big are you and what size is this too-small bike? It looks like you have one problem similer to mine: we wear glasses and in order to look horizontally through the middle of the lens requires us to bend our necks up as far as they will go which leads to PAIN!

I have one of my Rivendells set up so that I can ride a long time in the drops and use the hooks and tops for very relaxed riding. I have the Legend set up so I have to ride on the top or hooks except for brief sprints or battles with headwinds. At the moment the second position is seeming pretty dumb for this old geezer. I'm still experimenting before I "do a Douglas and sell off my "racy" bikes. Stay tuned.

[dave thompson]

.............."do a Douglas and sell off my "racy" bikes.............
All my size too!

[Ken Robb]

Well Dave, have ya got any money left for more?

[dave thompson]

Well Dave, have ya got any money left for more?
Sure Ken. I've canceled my European trip and sold my Volvo. Will that cover everything?

[Ken Robb]

it might Dave--what year/model Volvo?

[dave thompson]

it might Dave--what year/model Volvo?
Last of the good ones, '0 S70Se.

[Ken Robb]

yep, that might cover the cost---let's see--Legend w/10spd Dura Ace, Csi w/10spd Chorus, Waterford RS-11 w/ 105 triple(OK I might keep that one)--I think you can still go to Yurrup!

[Eric E]

That back position even hurts me! One possibility: in order for your seat to be comfortable, you may be planting your rear on your seat so your spine is nearly vertical, resulting in the need to bend your back into a painful hump. One way to check this is to rotate your seat forward - then you will be able to straighten your spine.

Unfortunately, that may mean that you now slide off your (tilted) seat, causing seat irritation and sore shoulders from having to always push yourself back. One possible solution is to get a new saddle with a narrower center of the saddle which will allow you to tilt forward while it is nearly horizontal and thus not slide off your seat. I find the Koobi saddles with wide backs and narrow centers (e.g., silver, au enduro) really work for me...

Good luck, Eric

[Marron]

Maybe I've missed some of the preceding discussion, but to me it looks like you're way too forward over the BB. I'm naturally biased toward more setback because of my relatively long femurs. You almost look like your "running" over the pedals in these photos. Have you tried (progressively) moving back?

[chrisroph]

I think I'd probably have you slide the saddle back. You look too far forward, you look like you have way too much weight on your hands and you are having difficulty folding at the waist. I will tell you that I sit back in the saddle but if I move a saddle too forward its guaranteed to give me low back pain and make me sit too upright.

[BumbleBeeDave]

It also looks to me like you are too far forward--almost like on a TT bike. I would go back to the shorter stem, slide your seat back a bit, and really concentrate on rolling your hips forward. But even then, you look too stretched out to me. Notice that with your hands on the hoods your arms are almost locked out straight--not nearly enough bend there.

But also keep in mind that I am not a certified fitter--nor do I even play one on TV! ;)

BBDave

[BarryG]

Am I the only one who looks at the middle photo, sees a knee well behind KOPS? Why are all you guys saying he's too far forward?

I'd like to see pics with the pelvis/hips rolled forward, stomach down, and elbows bent before pronouncing too far forward (or too far back).

[bcm119]

Am I the only one who looks at the middle photo, sees a knee well behind KOPS? Why are all you guys saying he's too far forward? :confused:

I noticed that too. I think he has short femurs, and at first glance he looks far forward but I think his saddle/BB relationship is probably okay. The problem with short femurs is that its hard to get that "balance" over the BB without being too far behind kops...I have the same problem. You have to compromise somewhere, and for me its a longer stem and more weight on my hands. That probably explains his straighter arms..he has to hold up more bodyweight.

[soulspinner]

Looksa tad small. Not sure you can get that saddle back far enough...

[BarryG]

The problem with short femurs is that its hard to get that "balance" over the BB without being too far behind kops...I have the same problem.
That makes 3 of us :cool:

[Peter]

I remember your original post.

Yeah; that longer stem makes it appear that now you're reaching TOO far. But I'm heavily influenced by your lack of a flat back and that you're not riding at high speed in the photo where you'd likely be more horizontal with bent elbows. I'll bet it's making the act of steering/turning the bars a little bit difficult as you're running out of reach.

I'd say consider going up a cm or two in frame size and reducing the TT+stem measurement by a cm, though I don't consider your Cannondale too small for you.

I'm not too fussy about fore-aft.

Ride the bike for a few hundred miles and see where you do most of your riding. Like I said in my original reply, if your hands wind up on the tops or short of the hoods, then the top tube + stem is definitely too long.

[93legendti]

Where's your knee in relation to your pedal spindle? I'm a long femur guy and you sure look too far forward in the pics, but without a pic of your cranks at 3 and 9 o'clock it is tough too tell.

[dirtdigger88]

roll them hips forward- you want a flat back and to be bent at the hips- Your hips are straight up and down-


Jason

[Jeff N.]

Gotta agree. That 'Dale needs to be a couple cm's larger. Jeff N.

[shinomaster]

thanks again for the feed back. Can a rider with a long upper body and a short pair of thighs not look forward on a bike?
I either need a custom frame or a compact. It is hard to just force ones self to flattern the back. I can do it for a bit, but then I get very tired and my back hurts!

[Climb01742]

a wise racer/fitter told me...roll your hips and don't worry so much about your back. it's working for me. may or may not for you. but trying to change too much at one time can overwhelm your body and mind. least for me. :rolleyes:

[vaxn8r]

What will a larger frame correct? A 58 cm will have a 1.5 cm longer TT and a 2 cm taller HT.

Some riders will never ride with a flat back. Some pros too.

We still have no idea if the Shinomaster is optimized in his position relative to the BB. Until we know that we can not be telling him to get a larger frame or longer or shorter bars. Do we know Shino's riding style? If he has power he needs to get post with setback so he can put out some watts. If he's a spinner, you could argue the current post is OK.

Here's one other thing I found useful. In the drops, at speed, with elbows bent, like they should be, they should be close to your knee when it comes into the 3:00 position. Not overlapping but close. As usual your comfort/results may vary.

[Fixed]

Anyone remember John Howard?

[flydhest]

Anyone remember John Howard?

wasn't he on "Happy Days"?

[csb]

n-ope _ thats the 24 hours a day baseball hat guy

[Marron]

I'd still try a more rearward position. KOP always seems like a bogus bikefitting rule designed to get the customer out of the shop faster. The end result here appears to be poor balance on the bike, which trumps KOP in my opinion.

[shinomaster]

I don't know where i should be now. Sylvester did the plumb line test and left my seat where it was. I need to take back the seat I got though. The back is way too wide for my tiny ***.

[JohnS]

I know your ulterior motive. The last few months you keep posting pictures on the forum of you on your road and cyclocross bikes. If you haven't gotten propositioned yet by a fellow forumite, it ain't going to happen! Find your lovelife somewhere else... :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Ginger]

I dunno, he keeps wearing those bibs from Russ....(I love my pair, but I try to wear other shorts for laundry purposes...)


Besides, I'm sure Sandy already has his contact information.

:)

[shinomaster]

oh please, I do laundry once a month.....

[Ginger]

That's right! We've seen pictures of your bikes-as-drying-racks!