Good, Lightweight Inner Tubes

[saab2000]

I was just reading a thread on another forum and it got me thinking.

Back in the '80s I did everything I could to maximise little detail improvements. I knew that the best tubulars had latex tubes and I could not afford any tubular wheels or tires at that time. So I bought some Specialized latex tubes. They went into my Turbo R clinchers (which, by the way, were not junk, even though most people rag on clinchers from the '80s). But those latex tubes were horrible.

Not only did they not hold air, a known issue, but they were so fragile as to be essentially unusable.

More recently I had a Continental Ultralight butyl tube on one of my bikes and it too never made it past the installation phase. It seems as though plastic kitchen wrap is stronger than that piece of junk.

If they can make condoms so frickin' strong, why can't they make a good bike tube?

Anyone have any suggestions for good tubes. Have latex tubes improved in the 20 years since I last tried them? It seems a shame to ride Veloflex Pave clinchers and negate their performance with lame, heavy tubes.

[97CSI]

Are you talking about racing or everyday riding? Big difference in what you might want for the two applications. One with lots of support and another where you don't want to be left without a way to hold air in your tires 30+ miles from home.

[saab2000]

I am talking about everyday riding. I have not raced in about 8 or 9 years now, but I still like to have racing level stuff. Obviously, I carry a spare tube. Usually two in fact. But for the normal ones in the tire I sometimes think it would be nice to have really light, supple tubes.

Anyone here use latex tubes? Are they more reliable than they used to be?

[97CSI]

I'm pretty cheap when it comes to tubes. I find these to be a reasonable quality and price. For my flatland riding I use their standard weight (117g vs 70g) tubes. http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile_combo.cfm?SKU=1437&estore_ID=&subcategory_ID=&CFID=30548297&CFTOKEN=65978669

[rePhil]

Could there be more than a handful of innertube factories in the world?
After a recent bad bunch of Performance tubes, I bought a few Continental tubes. I looked all over the package for an origin site, but not until I actually opened it did I find saw the familiar "Made in Taiwan" stamped on the tube.
While Performance claimed that the presta failures I am experiencing are rare I have been hearing about more of them.

[saab2000]

You are right about the number of factories. They are practically all made in Taiwan and probably most of those come from 1 or 2 factories.

I might try to find some Michelins simply because they don't have the "ribbed" threaded valve stems, something which causes tons o' problems with my pump.

[JohnS]

REI has decent tubes with smooth valve stems in both regular and "lite" versions. www.rei.com

[NateM]

I've been using Michelin Latex tubes on the commuter and go fast bike with no problems. They lose pressure overnight but pumping and checking tires is a prerequisite before any of my rides.I quit using Vittoria latex tubes because of quality issues...junk.

[97CSI]

While Performance claimed that the presta failures I am experiencing are rare I have been hearing about more of them.I thought I had a problem when a couple of Presta's would not seat. But, after getting them into the tire and fully inflated they have been fine. PITA when they won't seat at low pressure to help assemble the tire, but work fine once fully inflated.

[11.4]

I've had consistent good luck with Specialized Turbo Ultralights. With the regular short stem the ones I get at my local shop weigh about 55 grams, which isn't bad. And if you want the "latex feel," powder them with talcum powder liberally before mounting them -- it lets the tire slide against the tube which improves overall suppleness (doesn't matter with a stiff tire but with Veloflex's it makes a big difference). Hint: Be sure it's real talcum, not cornstarch. If you use the latter, and you change a tire in the rain, you have a good version of paper glue on your hands and everything gets glued and stuck together. Check the label

[Dekonick]

Could there be more than a handful of innertube factories in the world?
After a recent bad bunch of Performance tubes, I bought a few Continental tubes. I looked all over the package for an origin site, but not until I actually opened it did I find saw the familiar "Made in Taiwan" stamped on the tube.
While Performance claimed that the presta failures I am experiencing are rare I have been hearing about more of them.

I also have had proplems with presta valves from performance tubes.

[rePhil]

According to Jobst:
Jobst Brandt <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org>
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 16:54:17 PST

> I've been told since my first bike that I should liberally dust the
> tube in talcum powder before installing it. I've believe that this
> may have reduced the number of flats I've had recently.

Talcum is one of the more durable urban legends. There is no benefit
in putting talcum or substitute powder on a tube or in a tire. The
practice has come to bicycle tires the same way tire treads that are
miniature replicas of automobile treads have... if it's good for cars,
it must be good for bicycles. Trucks (and formerly cars) use talcum
or graphite powder between tire and tube, because without it, the two
can vulcanize from the heat of rolling. This often makes tube removal
destructive, leaving tube fragments stuck in the tire casing.

Bicycles do not generate enough heat to vulcanize tubes, so they can
be removed from the tire without problem. Other than that, talcum has
no effect on punctures other than to release air faster when one
occurs. A tube stuck to the casing will retain air for a considerable
distance after a thorn penetration because the thorn that penetrates
plugs the casing hole leaving the tube hole with no outlet. This is
especially true for snake bites. I have found such flats the day
after when they have gone flat over night. Without powder, a tube
will stick adequately to most clincher tires in about 100 miles.

Corn starch is no better than talcum powder, the only difference being
that it is water soluble, but then who cares. Talcum also cakes up
when wet, although it doesn't dissolve.

A tube cannot move in a tire when inflated, regardless of what powder
is used, because, no translational forces exist, on top of which the
holding force between tube and casing is large. That talcum prevents
damage when mounting a tire is also not the case, because the pinch
occurs when the last part of the bead is being popped onto the rim.
This can cause a pinch with or without a tire iron, and powder will
not protect a tube from lying in the gap if it hasn't been pushed into
the tire adequately.

The reason tubes have talcum powder inside is that in manufacture,
they become hot enough that, otherwise, they could become inseparably
stuck when folded. That is why most butyl tubes have talcum inside.

[Too Tall]

I don't think things have changed. Super thin light tubes fail and a properly sized NORMAL tube is going to get you to the end of the day. I turn a blind eye to weight and exclusively use Performance brand road tubes. Can't recall a defect in many many yrs. Using the correct sized tube is important.

[11.4]

There are two arguments for talcum, and Jobst only addresses one. The other is that suppleness of the tire casing is limited if it has a butyl tube stuck to it (and we've all had butyl tubes stuck to casings, even if they aren't vulcanized to it, right?). The talcum gives an extra edge of movement between the casing and the tube. Vittoria, Veloflex, Clement, and Deda all recommend it. I have to say that with ultralight butyl tires I don't see the effect as much, but thicker butyl tubes just aren't that elastic and they really do make a nice Veloflex open tubular feel like an Armadillo or worse.

[slowgoing]

I won't touch the lightweight tubes with a 10 foot pole. Maybe if I was climbing Mt. Washington at up to 5 mph, but not if there's any downhill involved.

[rePhil]

11.4,I am not wanting an argument, but rather a discussion. I guess I don't understand what you are trying to say. Do you say the tire moves on the rim?If so, Jobst states"A tube cannot move in a tire when inflated, regardless of what powder is used, because, no translational forces exist, on top of which the holding force between tube and casing is large."
So if I am understanding what you are saying something is moving. What is it?

There are two arguments for talcum, and Jobst only addresses one. The other is that suppleness of the tire casing is limited if it has a butyl tube stuck to it (and we've all had butyl tubes stuck to casings, even if they aren't vulcanized to it, right?). The talcum gives an extra edge of movement between the casing and the tube. Vittoria, Veloflex, Clement, and Deda all recommend it. I have to say that with ultralight butyl tires I don't see the effect as much, but thicker butyl tubes just aren't that elastic and they really do make a nice Veloflex open tubular feel like an Armadillo or worse.

[Ozz]

...Jobst states"A tube cannot move in a tire when inflated, regardless of what powder is used, because, no translational forces exist, on top of which the holding force between tube and casing is large."

well if Jobst states it..... :rolleyes:

Seriously, I used to get snakebites quite a bit until I started using talc when installing tires and tubes. Granted, maybe it was cuz I was new the cycling thing and didn't know how to properly install in tube...maybe the talc helped me install the tube properly cuz the tube could move a little easier during inflation? I know I've ruined more than one tube becuase it was folded inside the tire or pinched betwee the bead and rim....I think moving to 23mm (from 20mm) tires helped me with this too.

Once the tire is properly installed, I have no idea if talc helps or not...I think it might, and that is good enough for me.

Specialized has some tubes available that are pre-talced, and come in a nice little ziplock bag...very handy. :beer:

[11.4]

Pic,

The movement isn't one of rotational movement around the rim. It's the movement that happens at the casing wall as the tire gets compressed and released at the bottom of the wheel rotation. If the tire casing is supple, the ride is better and tire adhesion is superior. If the casing becomes more rigid, it can't accommodate the compression at the bottom of the wheel rotation or any irregularities on the road, so it bounces more, loses adhesion, and both wastes energy and has less secure contact with the road. There's a difference in performance between, say, a Veloflex Open Pave tire with lightly latexed fabric sidewalls and a Veloflex Open Pave tire with black rubber coating (the "Black" version) on the sidewalls -- so consider what an inner tube stuck to the wall will do. The talcum just allows the tire casing to move and give way in compression mode independently from the inner tube.

We were fooling around once and used a little red surveyor's chalk to mark one spot opposite the valve stem about 1 inch wide (the whole tube had been dusted with talcum anyway). After a week of riding, the chalk had spread to cover about 5 inches of the tube. We also took a chalk pencil and drew a line down the centerline of the casing on the inside; after one training ride, it had spread and diffused all over the tire. When one rider drew the same line without chalking the tire, the tire was stuck lightly to the casing as usual, and the line was still clear. Not anything I'd call definitive, but interesting.

[bcm119]

The Specialized Turbo pre-talced tubes in the zip-lock are the way to go. You can fold a $5 bill and stick it in there too.

I don't believe tubes slide against the inside surface of the tire at all...they are pressed against it with over 100 psi. But talc definately simplifies tube installation.

I've never noticed an increase in flats using light weight tubes, and I think they improve ride quality as much as anything else.