Advice Needed on Carbon Frame Purchase

[1happygirl]

This would be my first carbon frame so....
Thanks in advance to everyone. Your wealth of knowledge is appreciated. I know the answers provided are Opinions only and YMMV, but I value the knowledge and info I have received throughout the years on this forum. There is usually some things I haven’t thought of. I don’t wanna be blinded by the bike.
I am looking at a frame and need help. This is the first time I will have bought, sight unseen (except for photos) and potentially shipped a (carbon) frame via FedCrash or crUPS.
It is a last years model that, according to the seller, was scratched in a group ride crash that they were tangled in. The front fork was scratched and replaced as a precaution even though nothing wrong. Gave me the # for the shop. I am likely the last owner as it is a small size frame (difficult to sell)
What questions would you ask about the frame ?(this being an all carbon frame but new fork)
Would doing a transaction through Ebay provide protection? (I quit Epay when it went commercial and started upping fees)
Lastly, I like the color better than this years but what would be enough difference in price to make you buy this one versus the new one? How much off for a stock carbon frame with top components that has been LBS okayed but still is a frame that was in a small group ride pileup? Not sure what is fair.

PS buying this used would give me money for getting new shoes/accessories

[jlyon]

Even though I have never owned a Carbon frame.

When I do I would rather a cheap new frame (there are plenty of choices out there) than any brand name one that I knew have been previously crashed.

The great thing about riding a bike is that I lose all my worries and I would hate to have a nagging thought in the back of my head I wonder how sound my frame really is after a wreck.

But I also weigh over 250 lbs and you know they bigger they are the harder they fall.

[Smiley]

go ahead and attach the photo and details so you can really get better input. Otherwise its a mildly crashed bike... with a new fork and yeah the price is right and you like the colors :)

[jonnyBgood]

I would ask how old the frame is. How many miles were on the bike. How big the person was who previous owned the frame and brand would make a big difference to me as I think some of the "bigger" brands are a little more respected as far as quality.

I would even ask about the crash. Was it a low speed "fall over" or was it a pretty serious crash.

I've had quite a few different carbon frames over the years (I currently have two carbon road bikes and two carbon mountain bikes) and have even crashed some of my carbon mountain bikes pretty damn hard with no issues at all.

The material is much stronger than people give it credit for.

Hope this helps

[eddief]

it was the driver's fault. his insurance company offered to take care of it. they had me take the bike to a Giant dealer, made the dealer cut the frame in half with a hack saw, and then and only then would they provide a replacement. i could not see visible damage on frame or fork. i thought they'd let me keep the old frameset and give me money for a new one too. i probably would have ridden the crashed one and kept the money, but the insurance company was taking no chances. what would you do?

[1happygirl]

Thanks, Smiley (good idea) and others. Per emails, apparently it was a low speed pileup in front and the rider got caught up in it.

Here's the only photo and the description.
I am assuming a small rider since it's a small frame.

[AngryScientist]

personally, i would not buy this bike if this is your only picture.

if the seller is serious about selling a relatively high dollar frame, it is certainly not out of the question to ask for a bunch more detailed pictures of the frame, components, any scratched or questionable areas, and ANYTHING else you want pics of. it literally costs him/her nothing but a few minutes of time to snap a few digital pictures of the frame and components.

if they are unwilling to provide more detailed pics, i would suspect something. even if it isnt damaged, do you want to deal with a seller who will not snap a few pictures to ease your mind? if something goes wrong, how will he react if he wouldnt even take pictures?

if he provides a lot of detailed pics, and you are satisfied with them, then i would be fine with buying used carbon.

my 2-cents.

[oldpotatoe]

Thanks, Smiley (good idea) and others. Per emails, apparently it was a low speed pileup in front and the rider got caught up in it.

Here's the only photo and the description.
I am assuming a small rider since it's a small frame.

A bike shop cannot tell if the carbon is bruised or otherwise damaged unless it's obvious(crack). They can only look for obvious cracks and the such. I would stay away. When carbon breaks it does so catastrophically.

[1happygirl]

Thanks will call the shop where its currently 'residing'. This is the only pix at present. Place it's shipping from/'residing' is different from the seller location (as it was listed on a major site)

sent this before saw yr post 'ol tater

I sure do love the color and the frame though, this years not my fave (insert sad smiley face here).

If it did fail, could it be repaired and would I be able to afford or could it be fixed?

[biker72]

I'd buy with a credit card. I've had 100% satisfaction with the 3 problems I've had with credit card purchases in the last 20 years. E-Bay tends to drag their feet in my opinion.

Carbon Frames:
Of course carbon frames are the thing right now. Most high end bike companies have more carbon than anything else because that is whats selling. I work at a bike shop and have seen the results of a crashed carbon frame. The material is paper thin and hairline cracks are hard to find.

I'd try to get some kind of short term warranty out of the seller. Take it to your local bike shop, let them know it's been in a crash and have them check it out.

[FlashUNC]

I think the concern is the nature of the crash itself, rather than the fact it has been in one.

I laid a carbon bike over in a crit over a decade ago, and both the frame and fork still ride the same as when they were new, thousands of miles and years after the crash. Of course, I think the fact my body was sliding across the deck with my bike on top of me had something to do with it.

So I tend to agree with the other posters here. Unless you get more detailed photos, I'd be wary. Honestly, the idea its being shipped from a separate location as the seller spooks me a bit.

[rdparadise]

Frankly, the market for used equipment these days is pretty flush IMHO. Therefore, based on this bike being previously crashed, I would stay away. There are plenty of other fish in this sea and you'd be wise to shop elsewhere. Let somebody else take the chance, I wouldn't.

Because of the aforementioned crash, I couldn't ride this bike without worrying about what may happen down the road.

Good luck whatever you decide.

Bob

Ps. The carbon around those zurts is pretty slim.

[oldpotatoe]

Thanks will call the shop where its currently 'residing'. This is the only pix at present. Place it's shipping from/'residing' is different from the seller location (as it was listed on a major site)

sent this before saw yr post 'ol tater

I sure do love the color and the frame though, this years not my fave (insert sad smiley face here).

If it did fail, could it be repaired and would I be able to afford or could it be fixed?

Depends on how it failed and if you survived it. Carbon repair can be very expensive(Calfee charged $250 for a seat stay repair on a Calfee, for instance). If it's bad enough, no repair.

I would pass. In another shop I saw a carbon MTB that 'looked' fine but it has a spot on the side of the downtube that felt 'squishy', like a partially busted egg shell on a hard boiled egg(no cracks tho). W/o finding this, the frame 'looked' fine. I would pass.

[bobswire]

If the fork needed replacement would suggest front end damage . I'd stay away from it. With less than 300 miles on it suggests to me the original owner has doubts about it. Maybe he received a replacement frame and the bike shop installed a new fork, etc, etc. Too many unanswered questions.

[rwsaunders]

I laid a carbon bike over in a crit over a decade ago, and both the frame and fork still ride the same as when they were new, thousands of miles and years after the crash. Of course, I think the fact my body was sliding across the deck with my bike on top of me had something to do with it.

I have been the human airbag on a few occasions and the bike always turned out to be the better for it.

Perhaps ask the seller to provide more detailed photos, and perhaps negotiate the sale through the bike shop. If the seller has been upfront regarding a crash, there is little reason to think that the bike shop would put the screws to you by being in cahoots with the seller.

I'm guessing that the frame is a Specialized by the fork? The other question to ask yourself is how much are you saving, if you always have a little seed of doubt in your head regarding the integrity of the frame?

[jaykosta]

I would verify that the 'shop' is legit - website?, phone directory listing with a street address.

Ask what replacement fork is installed - the picture appears to be with the original fork - 'at home', not in a shop.

Maybe inquire if an arrangement can be worked-out so you buy the frame from the 'shop' (with a shop guarantee), that would of course involve some extra $$ going to the shop.

Also, maybe post where the shop is located and someone here might be able to 'take a look' at it....

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

[texbike]

As others have stated, why bother with this one?

There are a TON of bikes out there for sale. It is really a buyer's market (especially this time of year). Just be patient and the "right" opportunity will pop up.

Texbike

[nahtnoj]

So the bike is at a shop? If you buy it, will the shop be handling the shipping?

Assuming the above is true, I would call the shop that is in possession of the bike and ask them to look it over. They will be cautious, because they have no desire to be middle-men in a transaction gone bad.

A "crashed" carbon frame is not immediately rendered an unrideable deathtrap. I use crashed in quotes because it sounds like this bike was laid over on a group ride.

Anytime I've been down on the road, the frame hasn't contacted the road surface - pedals, cranks, shifters, etc take all the abuse. Mountain bikes are a different story.

Regarding the fork, many carbon forks are designed to essentially shear on impact. Kind of like a bolt head if too much torque is applied to it. So even in a major crash - fork into a storm grate at 30mph - the fork is a weak link that protects the frame.

[1happygirl]

Thanks everyone. Good point about the other bike replacement, the seller says it was just the fork replaced (& it was nice that the seller disclosed the fact it was in a crash anyway). I think it has been for sale for some time.

Reason why this bike: I like this color of this bike the best and it is really cheaper without tax etc than on a new 2011.

Yes, it does have zertz and the fork is brand new.

Not the cheapest option, but could the 2011 be repainted to the color I like (white) cost effectively and without damage? That's one option I guess, but would leave me without extra $$$ for new shoes, gps etc that I would like

[biker72]

I don't know what your price range is but a new Specialized Ruby in white is $2100 retail.

http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCProduct.jsp?spid=52881&scid=1001&scname=Road

[1happygirl]

I don't know what your price range is but a new Specialized Ruby in white is $2100 retail.

http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCProduct.jsp?spid=52881&scid=1001&scname=Road

'Pro' is $5K plus tax. Used/crashed is around the ~$3800 mark (in White! no less)

[mpetry]

Happygirl, it's a nice looking bike but you just do not have enough info. The shop is disclosing that the bike has been down and the fork replaced. They want to sell it! I would not buy that bike unless you have at least seen and ridden it, or some objective party (not benefitting from the sale) has a chance to look it over as your agent and give you the thumbs up.

You've got some good advice in this thread, and I agree - I would not buy it, just based on "it's been crashed" and one cell phone picture from craigslist.

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA

[tuxbailey]

'Pro' is $5K plus tax. Used/crashed is around the ~$3800 mark (in White! no less)


$3800 for a bike that has been in a crash and you have no warranty for it. I would passed and save $1500 more for the $5K version.

You just cannot underestimate the peace of mind with warranty on CF bike.

[1happygirl]

Thanks for the input, everyone. I really value the voice of wisdom as I am blinded by the snow outside and white shiney bike (that I want really bad).

Called the shop, an employee said they had been building a lot of bikes lately and hadn't heard of it. Call back.

I called the shop back and the bike is not at the shop. It is with the seller. I have emailed just now for more bike pix. The employee at the shop that I talked to said he talked to the bike shop owner who is not in until noon, but that the shop owner knew more about it. The employee said it sounded like the bike shop owner and the seller had just talked about it without the shop 'technically' looking it over (that's what it sounded like to him when he called the shop owner). They don't sell this brand bike the employee said-so for his take a warranty was out of the question.

Sounds increasingly bad and I am disappointed, but will listen to the wiser voices of wisdom. GLAD I ASKED!


Can the same bike (2011 one) be stripped and repainted without too much hassle and cost if I were to get the new one?

Thanks again everyone, I really appreciate it and lookin' out for my safety. That's really more important than the color. Right. I'll repeat that ten times today so I'm not 1disappointedgirl all day.

Maybe the high price with the crash is a reason the seller still has it.

[biker72]

The Tarmac Pro comes in white.

http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCProduct.jsp?spid=52899&scid=1001&scname=Road

[rockdude]

'Pro' is $5K plus tax. Used/crashed is around the ~$3800 mark (in White! no less)

To each their own but I think $3800 is over the top for a mass produced, used bike. For that money take your time and get something that is a little nicer like a Serotta, Parlee, Crumpton, etc. Not very many used bikes sell above the $2500-$2800. I bought a Floor model Colagno Extreme with DA and the works for $2500 on ebay, give it 200 miles then parted it out and made a profit 2x what I paid. I understand size might be an issue in finding a bike but I feel a non retail buy, you are way over market value. As an example, only seven bike sold for that much or more on ebay over the last 2 weeks. And we are talking about 10,000's of bike sales and for those seven they were decked out with ultra nice stuff. ie High $ carbon wheels etc..

FYI- you can get any bike painted to any color..

[mpetry]

Not wanting to presume ill intent, however I'm sure the shop has an interest in selling the bike - like the seller will buy a new bike when this one moves.

I know you're disappointed but I think you've dodged a bullet.

As for painting, it's not that hard to take the components off a bike, but I don't know what the best frame prep technique is for carbon frames. For sure it's not sandblasting. Make sure your painter is clued in.

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA

[soulspinner]

A bike shop cannot tell if the carbon is bruised or otherwise damaged unless it's obvious(crack). They can only look for obvious cracks and the such. I would stay away. When carbon breaks it does so catastrophically.

+1- propagation of crack from inside out a possibility....................

[rice rocket]

She/he is really selling it for $3800? For a bike w/o warranty and that's definitely been crashed?

I ride pretty small frames (52cm TT), so I too have trouble finding properly sized frames. Things come and go, but definitely not at the rate that larger frames do. I'd say be patient. That's not even a bargain @ $3800.

What frame size do you need? I'll keep an eye out, as I'm sort of shopping for my sister as well (she's 4'11, 5'0 on a good day).

[tuxbailey]

Not wanting to presume ill intent, however I'm sure the shop has an interest in selling the bike - like the seller will buy a new bike when this one moves.

I know you're disappointed but I think you've dodged a bullet.

As for painting, it's not that hard to take the components off a bike, but I don't know what the best frame prep technique is for carbon frames. For sure it's not sandblasting. Make sure your painter is clued in.

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA


I think repainting it might affect the warranty as well. Can you check with Specialized and see you can order custom color for the 2011?

Barring that, maybe look for a P1 from Trek if they have the same size?

[1happygirl]

Yeah it's $3700.00 (38 with shipping)
The seller emailed me back and said I could call the shop back or they could call me, but ask for the owner of the shop to talk to but it is not at the shop. It is at the seller's parents house and will call the parents and ask them to email me some more pix. It's not at the person's (college kids) house that is selling it.
In this women's specific frame, I thought I would take a 48 cm but rode the 2011 model in a 51 cm and with some tweaking of the stem, etc will be okay.
I really liked it. I could go with the same bike model and geometry but lesser frame /different carbon and lesser components for less money, but wanted the 'Pro' model for weight and DA.

As some have suggested, I don't see why she couldn't sell the components seperately.
It would appear it's been listed twice on Epay and elsewhere for some time without sale. Same price.

I really was conflicted about asking people about the bike and about selling, cuz if I was the seller I would wanna get as much as I could considering what I paid for it. I haven't really determined how I feel about that, but I'm glad I asked as I do think it is a little high and could wind up costing me more than a new 2011 WITH warranty. Thanks.

[rdparadise]

There are a number of beautiful used bikes out there that are going for a steal right. Kiss this one goodbye and move on.

Hey, white bikes are nice, however, they do get dirty really easy, so think again about that color before taking the plunge.

Bob

[sc53]

Hi Happy, I ride a small frame too (50 cm) and they do turn up on the classifieds here and on eBay. If this bike were $2500 you should consider it, but not at $3700. You could get a very nice new bike for that, or keep shopping for a super used bike for that amount of $$. I have a nice carbon Ottrott in 50 cm--but I'm not selling it! I love it.

[rice rocket]

How about this?

49cm.

http://www.racycles.com/product.aspx?catid=10,30,543&pid=1818

DA7800, but it's still within a couple grams of the 7900 grouppo. Also, it has the S-works carbon crankset, which is supposedly lighter and stiffer.

[markie]

It sounds like you would be much better off taking your money to a really good bike shop that is local to you. They should get you on a bike that fits you well, that has not been previously crashed. You might get lucky and get some kind of discount if you are looking at bikes in the $4K range. I often see last years model bikes in the shop with 10-20% off...

(I never trust sellers who cannot take extra photos for you, as one person already mentioned. Plus the inconsistent story would make me very nervous about sending payment. You can tell it is a poor deal because the bike has been on ebay a couple of times and has still not sold)

[thwart]

I'd agree.

I wouldn't consider paying close to $4K for a used bike, no matter what. Especially a 'mass market' bike that will likely depreciate much more rapidly. Remember, the economy is slow, and bike shops really want to move new bike inventory.

It makes me weak to consider what you could buy with that kind of money in today's used market... Parlee, Speedvagen, Colnago, Serotta... the list goes on and on.

[Peter P.]

From what you've written so far, it sounds like even at $3800 you're pushing your budget.

You need to consider this: After you buy the bike, you have to be able to replace anything on the bike without flinching at the costs. Parts WILL wear and accidents WILL happen. If you have to buy used to afford this level of components, then you'll likely grimace at the maintenance costs for things like chainrings, freewheels, etc.

And hardly any of us need Dura Ace, although we want it ;-)

You could easily buy a custom steel frame and fork, outfitted with a Shimano Ultegra Group, and saved hundreds of dollars over that $3800. PLUS, you'd be able to get it in ANY color you want, including white!

[Joachim]

You could easily buy a custom steel frame and fork, outfitted with a Shimano Ultegra Group, and saved hundreds of dollars over that $3800. PLUS, you'd be able to get it in ANY color you want, including white!

+1, Peter has some words of wisdom here. Not only any color, but made according to your size (and believe me, if weight is a factor, not much heavier than the stock bike you looking at).

[1happygirl]

Thanks everyone for the good advice. You speak good, common sense and thanks for the info on the market and carbon. I don't have near the info you guys do. FWIW, I did speak to both shops that looked it over and also the manufacturer. Additionally, the seller sent me more pix.

[Fixed]

what town maybe there is a forum bro. near enough to check it out for you .
cheers
best of luck

[1happygirl]

Thanks Fixed et. al.

Owner just called me. Says has about 3-4 other bikes (Madone, etc.). and she would sell for $3600 since she replaced the fork. She will hang on to it then. I said C YA. Ugh, was a different conversation. :rolleyes: Strange.

[AngryScientist]

I said C YA.

good move happygirl.

[rwsaunders]

good move happygirl.

Ditto.

[Bob Loblaw]

Thanks Fixed et. al.

Owner just called me. Says has about 3-4 other bikes (Madone, etc.). and she would sell for $3600 since she replaced the fork. She will hang on to it then. I said C YA. Ugh, was a different conversation. :rolleyes: Strange.

Good call, 1HG. Sounds like maybe the seller isn't someone you'd want to deal with, and $3800 is quite a bit for a used bike, as others have said.

Keep an eye out for deals, they're out there.

I have bought and sold quite a few cars, motorcycles, and bicycles, and the best advice I ever got was the hardest to follow: Don't buy something you're in love with. You'll overlook the flaws till it's too late. Asking for a critical eye(s) here was a good move.

Good luck,

BL

[thwart]

Good to see someone who actually lives what they preach...

Delay is preferable to error Thomas Jefferson
You'll find a bike you'll love for less $. I'd bet on it.

[firerescuefin]

Kudos to the owner for telling you it had been in a crash....many don't.

[1happygirl]

Goodness points to the seller which I told her on the phone this am for informing of crash. Kinda funny, I'm disappointed but it's weird how it sounded like a minor crash, but OTOH she was telling me about how Delta ruined her kid's carbon bike, but how carbon is so strong. Thanks Boblaw and all for the support and wisdom. I was blinded in love with it. Asking non-partial experienced peeps who have no horse in the game, but my best interest was great. Thanks Guys (don't think any gals answered). Thwart is hope your're right.

Learned a little 'bout carbon. Now I hear they are having problems with carbon parts on the new cars, Audi?? maybe. Looks great, bad part. 1?disappointedgirl didn't know.

[Geeeewiz]

DONT BUY. It has a brand new fork? Why? Because the other one was demolished in the crash? If, so then the crash was more than a slight bump up. I would steer clear. Good luck.