View Full Version : busted spoke= end of ride
Ken Robb
02-06-2011, 12:05 PM
I was riding my Ducati yesterday and stopped to help a rider on a Scott carbon something model. 10 spd DA and Ksyrium wheels with the scalloped rimes. His rear wheel locked while he was riding and he didn't know why. I didn't want to get a bunch of chain gunk on me so I tried to coach him on how to get his chain unwrapped due to his trying to remove the wheel while cross-chained. While we wrestled with me holding the bike and him cutting his finger I saw a drive-side spoke broken right at the hub. The wheel didn't look too bad but opening up the caliper didn't help because there was so little clearance at the chainstays even with 23mm tires. He had no tools (does anyone carry a spoke wrench for those nipples?) so I couldn't really help him. It was pretty rural and nobody he called was answering their phones.
He was surprised when I found the broken spoke because he said he had broken one before and managed to ride home. I gathered that he had just replaced the broken spoke at that time. Would this previous incident have strained this wheel such that more breaks are almost certain? Should he have replaced all spokes when he broke the first one?
Should we all ride bikes with lots of clearance and 32-36 hole wheels? :)
Should we all ride bikes with lots of clearance and 32-36 hole wheels? :)
Sure, and we should all have world peace. :)
Rather than replacing more spokes, maybe he should consider different wheels. For whatever reason they don't seem to be holding up.
SPOKE
02-06-2011, 12:19 PM
Don't expect to ride the bike home when you break a spoke on wheels with less than 32 spokes. Sometimes you can get home but don't expect it.
spartacus
02-06-2011, 12:35 PM
I carry a spoke wrench, and ride traditional wheels in 36 front and rear. Never needed the wrench and never broken a spoke.
I don't carry a chain tool, and I know I should. I will get one.
maxdog
02-06-2011, 12:45 PM
I have a pair of sl premiums, on my moots, 5 years old and over 20 k on them. Never replaced a spoke or even had to true them. Go figure. Sounds like this guy should spend a little more time learning about bikes, relative to his monetary outlay imo.
Steve in SLO
02-06-2011, 01:45 PM
I just busted a spoke nipple on a 32 spoke RR 1.1. It didn't stop my ride, but I had to back my brake way out and rode home straightaway. I've also done it on a 28 spoke Neuvation rear wheel and it didn't wobble as bad as I would have imagined, so it has something to do with lateral rim stiffness as well as spoke count.
Curmudgeon rant:
On a related note, I'm always a bit surprised by folks I ride with who have high zoot bikes and make comments like "It's not shifting great, I'm going to have to take it in and have it looked at" (Hello, heard of a barrel adjuster?) or who are extremely tentative or nervous about changing a tube, which I often end up helping with. Seems to me if you're taking a long ride in the country with sketchy cell coverage you'd be a bit better educated or prepared.
Ken Robb
02-06-2011, 01:55 PM
these are my thoughts too and he REALLY said "NO!" when I offered to undo his masterlink to ease unwinding the twisted, kinked, jammed chain. It was one of the easy on/off links requiring no tool too.
I wondered if he just paid big bucks for this as his first bike.
The only broken spoke I remember happened on a mtn. bike ride and I think it was caused by a stick in the spokes. 32 hole Mavic 26" rim on XT hubs. I didn't feel anything but noticed the spoke hanging out when I stopped for a drink. I took it out and rode home without even having to adjust the brake. It was a front wheel and broke in the middle of the spoke. I had been riding totally off track through lots of dead wood and branches.
dancinkozmo
02-06-2011, 02:01 PM
...who gives a crap about spokes , what kind of DUCATI do you own ?? :)
oldpotatoe
02-06-2011, 02:22 PM
I was riding my Ducati yesterday and stopped to help a rider on a Scott carbon something model. 10 spd DA and Ksyrium wheels with the scalloped rimes. His rear wheel locked while he was riding and he didn't know why. I didn't want to get a bunch of chain gunk on me so I tried to coach him on how to get his chain unwrapped due to his trying to remove the wheel while cross-chained. While we wrestled with me holding the bike and him cutting his finger I saw a drive-side spoke broken right at the hub. The wheel didn't look too bad but opening up the caliper didn't help because there was so little clearance at the chainstays even with 23mm tires. He had no tools (does anyone carry a spoke wrench for those nipples?) so I couldn't really help him. It was pretty rural and nobody he called was answering their phones.
He was surprised when I found the broken spoke because he said he had broken one before and managed to ride home. I gathered that he had just replaced the broken spoke at that time. Would this previous incident have strained this wheel such that more breaks are almost certain? Should he have replaced all spokes when he broke the first one?
Should we all ride bikes with lots of clearance and 32-36 hole wheels? :)
Break spoke and sometimes stress and bend a rim. Replace spoke on this bent rim and tension now uneven. Even when you break a stainless steel spoke or ride an under tensioned wheel and break a spoke, the solution is never to replace all the spokes. The spokes aren't the problem, the rim is the problem.
Broken aluminum spokes on these wheels is pretty common. He can try to replace this one but if he breaks another, he should get it rebuilt. Expensive tho-about $250 if Mavic does it.
As for the last question, these wheels are expensive, use unique to this wheel parts, are often not supported by the manufacturer for many years, aren't lighter, aren't more reliable, have a poor rear hub..not sure what you get with your MSRP $.
A wheel designed and built specifically for you and your needs will often be as light, more reliable, use standard parts, have a superior hubset and be less expensive.
But no pretty colors and red spokes and gold rims and such.
Peter P.
02-06-2011, 02:31 PM
Breaking one spoke is NOT going to overstress a wheel, causing other spokes to break soon after.
Part of the problem with wheel rub when a rear spoke breaks is CARBON. The tubes need to be larger than steel (which frame components were designed around) for sufficient rigidity, so valuable clearances for a wobbly wheel are lost.
Perhaps the reason the rider managed to ride the bike home on the previous broken spoke is he broke a spoke on drive vs. non-drive side, or vice versa.
Frames SHOULD be designed so a single broken spoke is not a ride ender.
oldpotatoe
02-06-2011, 02:37 PM
Breaking one spoke is NOT going to overstress a wheel, causing other spokes to break soon after.
Part of the problem with wheel rub when a rear spoke breaks is CARBON. The tubes need to be larger than steel (which frame components were designed around) for sufficient rigidity, so valuable clearances for a wobbly wheel are lost.
Perhaps the reason the rider managed to ride the bike home on the previous broken spoke is he broke a spoke on drive vs. non-drive side, or vice versa.
Frames SHOULD be designed so a single broken spoke is not a ride ender.
Beg to differ but breaking one spoke CAN bend a rim bad enough that when retrued, the tension will be erratic enough that another broken spoke is inevitable. Low spoke count, fairly unrigid rim, high spoke tension and one spoke can definitely goon up a rim.
Dekonick
02-06-2011, 05:49 PM
Beg to differ but breaking one spoke CAN bend a rim bad enough that when retrued, the tension will be erratic enough that another broken spoke is inevitable. Low spoke count, fairly unrigid rim, high spoke tension and one spoke can definitely goon up a rim.
Watching SB and typing this all while at work! Would much rather be elsewherre...
I had one wheel that broke 3 spokes in a 2 month period. Different spokes each time. After the third one, I had it re-built.
Gonna be on a long ride away from support? Make sure you either have extra spokes (think unusual flat bladed etc...) or a temporary spoke. You can tape 'em to the top tube... if needed. Make sure they are pre-cut etc...
That is what is nice about Protons vs Neutrons - they use a normal spoke. :banana:
pbjbike
02-06-2011, 06:04 PM
Still haven't ridden anything less than 32 soke count in the same number of years. No broken spokes on handbuilt wheels, a few races won, always made it home. :)
fogrider
02-06-2011, 06:47 PM
first off, I don't own a mavic wheelset. but I think they are strong lightweight wheels that are overpriced. if a spoke breaks on a low count wheel, I would not ride it home. there are times when a spoke breaks due to hitting a pothole, jumping off a curb, or just overstressed but it could be that the rim has been deformed beyond repair already, but riding home on it could only make it worst.
when i ride my lightweight wheels, I'm very careful of where I ride and the conditions. no riding in the rain or wet conditions within the last week! I have a another bike entirely that I ride when conditions are not perfect.
pbjbike
02-06-2011, 07:04 PM
[SNIP...] if a spoke breaks on a low count wheel, I would not ride it home.[SNIP]
How would you get home then?
WickedWheels
02-06-2011, 08:13 PM
In my experience Ksyrium SL's are very strong, light weight, rigid riding wheels. I've sold A LOT of these wheels and have had very few come back with issues. I recently put a 300 lbs, 6'9 rider on them (with the MP3 warranty) because he wanted a light bike. I can't think of any other ~1500g wheelset that's this consistently strong and at this price point.
The big problem I've seen with the Ksyrium's is that the hubs are not great for high-mileage/low maintenance riding. The freehub body drags. Bushings wear out. Well, that and the wheels give a fairly rigid ride.
All of that being said, I still recommend them. You just have to know what you're getting yourself into.
As for repairing them on the side of the road... pull the wheel out of the frame and bang it on the ground until it's straight enough to ride home... or step on it. It beats calling for a ride.
Break spoke and sometimes stress and bend a rim. Replace spoke on this bent rim and tension now uneven. Even when you break a stainless steel spoke or ride an under tensioned wheel and break a spoke, the solution is never to replace all the spokes. The spokes aren't the problem, the rim is the problem.
Broken aluminum spokes on these wheels is pretty common. He can try to replace this one but if he breaks another, he should get it rebuilt. Expensive tho-about $250 if Mavic does it.
As for the last question, these wheels are expensive, use unique to this wheel parts, are often not supported by the manufacturer for many years, aren't lighter, aren't more reliable, have a poor rear hub..not sure what you get with your MSRP $.
A wheel designed and built specifically for you and your needs will often be as light, more reliable, use standard parts, have a superior hubset and be less expensive.
But no pretty colors and red spokes and gold rims and such.
rustychisel
02-07-2011, 01:23 AM
are we beating up Ksyriums again? I'll stand up for them. They're strong, they're tough, they take a beating, they work. They can break, like any other wheel, but I've seen more broken Bontrager wheels than Mavic's, hands down. Oh, and the guy 3 weeks ago who popped a non-drive spoke on his fancy pants Easton EC90s going up Montacute..? He gouged his carbon chainstay before he could stop, so violently did the wheel go out of true.
Moral of the story: ride low spoke count wheels by all means but be prepared for being SOL if something goes wrong.
sg8357
02-07-2011, 07:40 AM
All these boutique wheels are designed for racing, racers have team cars
or at least a domestique they can steal a wheel from. Training wheels have
lots of spokes and are for riding when the team car is not available.
I realize this being the Serotta forum most of you have team cars, I think
Mevicis come with 5 years of team car coverage. For the rest of us, if you don't
want your frozen body to be found in the spring on the side of the road
with a broken wheel at your side, try 32/36 wheels.
Scott G.
Builder of RBWs, Really Boring Wheels.
Dekonick
02-07-2011, 09:37 AM
All these boutique wheels are designed for racing, racers have team cars
or at least a domestique they can steal a wheel from. Training wheels have
lots of spokes and are for riding when the team car is not available.
I realize this being the Serotta forum most of you have team cars, I think
Mevicis come with 5 years of team car coverage. For the rest of us, if you don't
want your frozen body to be found in the spring on the side of the road
with a broken wheel at your side, try 32/36 wheels.
Scott G.
Builder of RBWs, Really Boring Wheels.
I am a fan of 32 3 cross.
torquer
02-07-2011, 09:58 AM
Haven't we had this discussion before?
Sure we have, but, as the OP laid it out, it's the gift that keeps on giving because it gives us a chance to complain about:
1. Boutique wheels
1a. low-spoke count rims
2. Carbon frames
3. Clueless nubes on high-bling bikes
I like my Ks. I like my carbon bikes. I can be clueless, too, even if I haven't qualified as a nube in a while. But I've learned that low-spoke count wheels, combined with 25mm tires, mounted on a frame with tight clearances don't leave a big margin of error when a spoke pops. But I don't bad-mouth any single factor of that particular equation. (Except the clueless nube part.)
firerescuefin
02-07-2011, 10:00 AM
All these boutique wheels are designed for racing, racers have team cars
or at least a domestique they can steal a wheel from. Training wheels have
lots of spokes and are for riding when the team car is not available.
I realize this being the Serotta forum most of you have team cars, I think
Mevicis come with 5 years of team car coverage. For the rest of us, if you don't
want your frozen body to be found in the spring on the side of the road
with a broken wheel at your side, try 32/36 wheels.
Scott G.
Builder of RBWs, Really Boring Wheels.
I have been riding on Mavic Ksyriums for over 10 years. Never an issue, and 3 of those years were 9000+ year miles in Eastern Europe (CRAPPY roads). I am not holding them out as the ultimate training wheel...or that your handbuilt wheels are not more stout, but the alarmist post above is completely over the top....and my current set of everyday wheels....carbon clinchers... Have not had ANY issues with them in 2 years.
Geoff F.
Rider of NBBW, Not Broken "Botique" Wheels.
rugbysecondrow
02-07-2011, 10:04 AM
It was that string of bad luck when you broke the spokes and had 3 flats in one ride...that was a weird riding period of time.
Up for a ride today? Call me.
Watching SB and typing this all while at work! Would much rather be elsewherre...
I had one wheel that broke 3 spokes in a 2 month period. Different spokes each time. After the third one, I had it re-built.
Gonna be on a long ride away from support? Make sure you either have extra spokes (think unusual flat bladed etc...) or a temporary spoke. You can tape 'em to the top tube... if needed. Make sure they are pre-cut etc...
That is what is nice about Protons vs Neutrons - they use a normal spoke. :banana:
oldpotatoe
02-07-2011, 12:09 PM
In my experience Ksyrium SL's are very strong, light weight, rigid riding wheels. I've sold A LOT of these wheels and have had very few come back with issues. I recently put a 300 lbs, 6'9 rider on them (with the MP3 warranty) because he wanted a light bike. I can't think of any other ~1500g wheelset that's this consistently strong and at this price point.
The big problem I've seen with the Ksyrium's is that the hubs are not great for high-mileage/low maintenance riding. The freehub body drags. Bushings wear out. Well, that and the wheels give a fairly rigid ride.
All of that being said, I still recommend them. You just have to know what you're getting yourself into.
As for repairing them on the side of the road... pull the wheel out of the frame and bang it on the ground until it's straight enough to ride home... or step on it. It beats calling for a ride.
Isn't it the job of the bike shop(and you're a bike shop, right?) to inform the customer "what he's getting into"?
Sorry for $1000, I see wheels that do the same thing as these for 1/2 the $.
Like 6700 hubs, Mavic, Velocity or DT rims, Dt spokes...about $500.
Besides, if you are a bike shop and build wheels and charge for the labor to do it, you make a higher margin(percentage wise) than with any wheel out of a box.
jlwdm
02-07-2011, 03:11 PM
The multi-tool I carry in my seat bag has a spoke wrench for Ksyrium wheels.
I hope my bike shop is not trying to sell me wheels based on profit margin.
Jeff
martinrjensen
02-07-2011, 03:12 PM
That's funny. I've used that trick to great success before, (banging the wheel on the ground to straighten it). About 800 miles later, still fine.In my experience Ksyrium SL's are very strong, light weight, rigid riding wheels. I've sold A LOT of these wheels and have had very few come back with issues. I recently put a 300 lbs, 6'9 rider on them (with the MP3 warranty) because he wanted a light bike. I can't think of any other ~1500g wheelset that's this consistently strong and at this price point.
The big problem I've seen with the Ksyrium's is that the hubs are not great for high-mileage/low maintenance riding. The freehub body drags. Bushings wear out. Well, that and the wheels give a fairly rigid ride.
All of that being said, I still recommend them. You just have to know what you're getting yourself into.
As for repairing them on the side of the road... pull the wheel out of the frame and bang it on the ground until it's straight enough to ride home... or step on it. It beats calling for a ride.
endosch2
02-07-2011, 03:15 PM
This is another wheel discussion like a lot of others - I ride Ksyriums and they are bomb proof. They have not let me down in 800+ rides so far - I have never really touched them. They are great bombproof wheels in my experience. If I had to call to get a ride home I would not care at this point.
Alternatively my experience with 32H Handbuilt 14 ga brass nipple, mavic O4CD wheels has not been so good. Yes they are "servicable" because they need frequent service.
Now someone will pop on saying I need a different wheelbuilder, a different rim, whatever, then some retro grouch will come on and tell me I need a high flange hub on my handbuilt wheels, and that 32 spokes are not good enough, that I should get 36H or 42 H wheels.
Bud_E
02-07-2011, 04:22 PM
I was riding my Ducati yesterday and stopped to help a rider on a Scott carbon something model. 10 spd DA and Ksyrium wheels with the scalloped rimes. His rear wheel locked while he was riding and he didn't know why. I didn't want to get a bunch of chain gunk on me so I tried to coach him on how to get his chain unwrapped due to his trying to remove the wheel while cross-chained. While we wrestled with me holding the bike and him cutting his finger I saw a drive-side spoke broken right at the hub. The wheel didn't look too bad but opening up the caliper didn't help because there was so little clearance at the chainstays even with 23mm tires. He had no tools (does anyone carry a spoke wrench for those nipples?) so I couldn't really help him. It was pretty rural and nobody he called was answering their phones.
He was surprised when I found the broken spoke because he said he had broken one before and managed to ride home. I gathered that he had just replaced the broken spoke at that time. Would this previous incident have strained this wheel such that more breaks are almost certain? Should he have replaced all spokes when he broke the first one?
Should we all ride bikes with lots of clearance and 32-36 hole wheels? :)
Almost the same thing happened to me. After years of good service a spoke broke on my rear Ksyrium but I was able to get home with it by opening up the brake. I got the spoke replaced and it was fine for a month or two but broke again ( I assume it was the replaced spoke ) when I was 85 miles into a century. This time the wheel was so warped I couldn't open the brake wide enough. By serendipity a SAG van came by within minutes of me standing there wondering what to do and he gave me a ride back to the finish. I won't ride that wheel anymore - I guess I could get it rebuilt but probably won't.
southernexposur
02-07-2011, 04:52 PM
Isn't it the job of the bike shop(and you're a bike shop, right?) to inform the customer "what he's getting into"?
Sorry for $1000, I see wheels that do the same thing as these for 1/2 the $.
Like 6700 hubs, Mavic, Velocity or DT rims, Dt spokes...about $500.
Besides, if you are a bike shop and build wheels and charge for the labor to do it, you make a higher margin(percentage wise) than with any wheel out of a box.
Many times the customer has already been informed what to get by his (or her) friend the avid cyclist and doesn't want to listen to the helpful LBS guy or gal when they try to give some practical real world advice. In these cases just handing the customer a pair of good margin pre-built wheels will do the trick just fine.
Now what I would ride and tell my friends to ride is along the same lines as your suggestion above.
Andrew
oldpotatoe
02-07-2011, 04:55 PM
The multi-tool I carry in my seat bag has a spoke wrench for Ksyrium wheels.
I hope my bike shop is not trying to sell me wheels based on profit margin.
Jeff
Hopefully your bike shop recognizes the value of wheels designed for you and your needs. My point is that handbuilt wheels are a good deal for everybody, builder and rider.
And for the next poster, if the rider is large or rides in the wet and the wheels needs rear hub service quickly, do ya supposed the bike shop charges for that rear hub overhaul on a 30 day old wheel? Or if the wheel needs truing quickly(mention of a 300 pound rider on Ksyriums, braver than me!)..do you charge to have it trued even if the sale wasn't the 'best' for the rider?
Idonno, maybe some shops sell something really inappropriate to somebody and then charge to make it right, when the bike is still 'new'.
jlwdm
02-07-2011, 07:11 PM
I have good LBSs in all three states where I have bikes and they would not charge for the issues you are mentioning.
My biggest problem with my main LBS in TX is they don't charge for as many things as they should.
Jeff
endosch2
02-07-2011, 07:39 PM
I wonder whether some LBS folks support of handbuilts comes from the fact that they only work on the broken Ksyriums. Does anyone with a true, smooth rolling wheel ever come in for repair? I am not saying that the LBS folks are greedy about wanting their customers to buy something they can work on, I am only talking about how that might affect ones perspective. Seems like an existential import point of view.
Dekonick
02-07-2011, 09:18 PM
It was that string of bad luck when you broke the spokes and had 3 flats in one ride...that was a weird riding period of time.
Up for a ride today? Call me.
Yes! That was an extremely unusual period of time. It, however, was not the only time I have broken spokes. Doesn't happen often, but I am hard on wheels.
Can't ride as Greg has a 103 fever... and probably will be sick for several more days... then I am certain it will be Colin's turn :crap:
Did get to the gym today... Tri's 'n chest. :beer:
So - how was your Tri bike ride? LIke the rig?
WickedWheels
02-07-2011, 09:33 PM
I've seen wheels that do the same thing for $300, but not at the weight of the Ksyriums. Remember the whole "light, cheap, strong... pick two).
As a shop, I feel like my job is not only to sell functionality. It's to sell excitement, cool factor, sex-appeal... whichever way you want to look at it. I want my customers to love their bikes for more than their ability to ride well without failing. If I do my job right I will sell all of that with compromising on function. I feel like the Ksyriums play into that fairly well.
Isn't it the job of the bike shop(and you're a bike shop, right?) to inform the customer "what he's getting into"?
Sorry for $1000, I see wheels that do the same thing as these for 1/2 the $.
Like 6700 hubs, Mavic, Velocity or DT rims, Dt spokes...about $500.
Besides, if you are a bike shop and build wheels and charge for the labor to do it, you make a higher margin(percentage wise) than with any wheel out of a box.
ergott
02-08-2011, 06:09 AM
I've seen wheels that do the same thing for $300, but not at the weight of the Ksyriums. Remember the whole "light, cheap, strong... pick two).
As a shop, I feel like my job is not only to sell functionality. It's to sell excitement, cool factor, sex-appeal... whichever way you want to look at it. I want my customers to love their bikes for more than their ability to ride well without failing. If I do my job right I will sell all of that with compromising on function. I feel like the Ksyriums play into that fairly well.
Sub 1500g wheels for sub $1000 isn't even a challenge. There are so many options out there.
The Ksyriums have always been hit or miss. Plenty of people love them. However it's impossible for to look past the problems people have had with them. Known problems such as cracks around the nipples, broken spokes and rear hub issues. This isn't another handbuilt vs. factory statement. I have always said that Campagnolo/Fulcrum and Shimano sell excellent wheels.
Is it really responsible to put a 6'9", 300lb rider on a set of Ksyriums? Is it enough to just get the MP3 (an additional cost) for good measure? That falls right into the disposable component problem many industries have now. Put enough of a margin on a component that when purchased with the "warranty" you can simply replace the component 2-4 times and still make a profit. What happens to the rest of the parts? Garbage.
I don't give a rat's arse what the customer insists anymore. If I don't feel comfortable selling something, I won't. This talk about "excitement, cool factor, sex-appeal" is very used car salesman (forgive the stereotype). Components shouldn't need a "warranty" upcharge.
This line "my customers to love their bikes for more than their ability to ride well without failing." I know that the dollar signs ring up in the eyes when they come in, but learning to say no when a purchase doesn't make sense is the right thing to do. Will some customers leave? Sure. Once they realize they can get a better price online, they will probably leave anyway (what else are you offering them?). Will other customers realize you are a straight shooter and trust your word? Yes. It couldn't hurt to use experience in the industry to help the customer be better informed.
That's where it's really at. I sleep better that way.
Sorry, it's pre-coffee AM. Even worse, I'm trying to get down to 2 cups instead of 4.
ergott
02-08-2011, 06:42 AM
Besides, if you are a bike shop and build wheels and charge for the labor to do it, you make a higher margin(percentage wise) than with any wheel out of a box.
It is MUCH easier for a shop to sell a box. No skilled labor involved. More money per unit. Easier to talk customer into because they are marketed better.
ergott
02-08-2011, 06:45 AM
Part of the problem with wheel rub when a rear spoke breaks is CARBON. The tubes need to be larger than steel (which frame components were designed around) for sufficient rigidity, so valuable clearances for a wobbly wheel are lost.
The rear wheel clearance on my Ottrott (titanium chainstay) is very tight. Carbon stays can be designed for better clearance if desired.
oldpotatoe
02-08-2011, 07:46 AM
I wonder whether some LBS folks support of handbuilts comes from the fact that they only work on the broken Ksyriums. Does anyone with a true, smooth rolling wheel ever come in for repair? I am not saying that the LBS folks are greedy about wanting their customers to buy something they can work on, I am only talking about how that might affect ones perspective. Seems like an existential import point of view.
We have Krysirium spokes(all models). We are a service shop and 'fix' all types of wheels, even those build somewhere else. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to evaluate the design of something as being 'poor'. I try to be honest about what a person is buying. I am honest about what that $1000 wheelset(or that $500 wheelset) will do or not do.
But I work on lots of things I don't 'sell'.
oldpotatoe
02-08-2011, 07:52 AM
Sub 1500g wheels for sub $1000 isn't even a challenge. There are so many options out there.
The Ksyriums have always been hit or miss. Plenty of people love them. However it's impossible for to look past the problems people have had with them. Known problems such as cracks around the nipples, broken spokes and rear hub issues. This isn't another handbuilt vs. factory statement. I have always said that Campagnolo/Fulcrum and Shimano sell excellent wheels.
Is it really responsible to put a 6'9", 300lb rider on a set of Ksyriums? Is it enough to just get the MP3 (an additional cost) for good measure? That falls right into the disposable component problem many industries have now. Put enough of a margin on a component that when purchased with the "warranty" you can simply replace the component 2-4 times and still make a profit. What happens to the rest of the parts? Garbage.
I don't give a rat's arse what the customer insists anymore. If I don't feel comfortable selling something, I won't. This talk about "excitement, cool factor, sex-appeal" is very used car salesman (forgive the stereotype). Components shouldn't need a "warranty" upcharge.
This line "my customers to love their bikes for more than their ability to ride well without failing." I know that the dollar signs ring up in the eyes when they come in, but learning to say no when a purchase doesn't make sense is the right thing to do. Will some customers leave? Sure. Once they realize they can get a better price online, they will probably leave anyway (what else are you offering them?). Will other customers realize you are a straight shooter and trust your word? Yes. It couldn't hurt to use experience in the industry to help the customer be better informed.
That's where it's really at. I sleep better that way.
Sorry, it's pre-coffee AM. Even worse, I'm trying to get down to 2 cups instead of 4.
Well said, I agree completely. I say no to people that want wheels that are not appropriate to them and their riding all the time. Recently a gent wanted DT415, 28h, 2 cross, Revs spokes front and back. He was large, I said no thanks.
How it works is you sell those(like a MO place I know), they are not appropriate, even tho they were the customer's idea, they go to hell early on and it's the wheelbuilder's fault..your name is now mud.
I admit I am very conservative in my wheel design philosophy but the wheels, like the bike, are 'there to get you there'. The object of the ride is the ride, not the bike(or wheels). I shy away from whizbangery.
ergott
02-08-2011, 07:54 AM
I wonder whether some LBS folks support of handbuilts comes from the fact that they only work on the broken Ksyriums. Does anyone with a true, smooth rolling wheel ever come in for repair? I am not saying that the LBS folks are greedy about wanting their customers to buy something they can work on, I am only talking about how that might affect ones perspective. Seems like an existential import point of view.
I don't even understand your point. They support handbuilts to get more money from the customer than a Ksyrium? If the LBS is selling handbuilts that need any sort of service other than hub maintenance they need more practice building wheels.
oldpotatoe
02-08-2011, 08:02 AM
I don't even understand your point. They support handbuilts to get more money from the customer than a Ksyrium? If the LBS is selling handbuilts that need any sort of service other than hub maintenance they need more practice building wheels.
Not pointin' fingers and not specifically because of this gent's post but there is a recurring 'bike shop bad' subthread thru a lot of posts here and elsewhere.
I think because there are a lot of crappy bike shops who are really just 'stuff delivery centers', not really 'shops', with knowledgeable people who tell the truth. I think there are a lot of shady outside reps also, who spout the 'party line', mostly about margin and $, not product. Some shops buy into the 'net never, deep discount' stuff, some do not.
endosch2
02-08-2011, 09:35 AM
I don't even understand your point. They support handbuilts to get more money from the customer than a Ksyrium? If the LBS is selling handbuilts that need any sort of service other than hub maintenance they need more practice building wheels.
No, all I was suggesting is that if all you ever did was work on the Ksyriums that broke, your perspective might be changed. (and you would support handbuilts or other designs) The Ksyriums that work dont come in to bike shops, so how would you know how many work well? I have two pairs that one has about 7 K miles and one has about 4 K that have never visited a shop. So my experience is very good with them.
Sorry for the existentialism reference but generally it means that your view of reality is only what you have experienced or observed. There is no real data out there that is objective (in wheel building), only peoples experience which leads to peoples different opinions. It has nothing to do with money, or margins, or running a bike shop.
ergott
02-08-2011, 10:13 AM
No, all I was suggesting is that if all you ever did was work on the Ksyriums that broke, your perspective might be changed. (and you would support handbuilts or other designs) The Ksyriums that work dont come in to bike shops, so how would you know how many work well? I have two pairs that one has about 7 K miles and one has about 4 K that have never visited a shop. So my experience is very good with them.
But there are Ksyriums coming back to shops for service. I think that data point is far more useful than a few riders that have ridden them trouble free. I'll go out on a limb and say that most shops see fewer Campagnolo and Shimano wheels come back for service as they do Mavic. At least that's my experience.
oldpotatoe
02-08-2011, 10:43 AM
But there are Ksyriums coming back to shops for service. I think that data point is far more useful than a few riders that have ridden them trouble free. I'll go out on a limb and say that most shops see fewer Campagnolo and Shimano wheels come back for service as they do Mavic. At least that's my experience.
Absolutely true. Another wheel we see a lot for repair is Easton. And a lot of toasted red BBs, and a lot of worn early FSA chainrings and BBs and a lot of shimano DA(octalink) BBs and ........
ergott
02-08-2011, 10:47 AM
Absolutely true. Another wheel we see a lot for repair is Easton. And a lot of toasted red BBs, and a lot of worn early FSA chainrings and BBs and a lot of shimano DA(octalink) BBs and ........
Too much data! Stop!
WickedWheels
02-08-2011, 12:08 PM
Show me another $1000 wheelset that balances all three (weight, strength and price) as well as the Ksyriums... let's say within 50g.
Sure, a handbuilt wheelset can be done to be reasonably light and very strong... but in my experience a lot of people want wheels that look flashier. Most are willing to give up something for that, whether it's service-ability on a ride or a little strength. You can argue the alternative all you want for your handbuilt wheel business and I'm sure you see your customers choosing not to pay for flash, but the sheer number of Ksyriums out there shows that the majority seems to disagree.
As for the shops pushing them because it's easier... it's not. I'd rather sell handbuilt wheels. We have other brands of wheels that give us much better margins. Ksyriums are what people are asking for and I feel comfortable selling them as long as they are aware of what they are getting... and yes, we let them know.
A couple of other points...
The proprietary spoke thing... it's not an issue. These wheels have been out for a very long time and any decent shop will have replacement spokes available.
The warranty... they have a 1 year warranty. The MP3 warranty is what I sell to people when they race or ride roads that dent rims... or are 300 lbs and have an increased chance of denting a rim or folding a wheel. It's an inexpensive peace of mind that's critical for some of these customers. It's good to be able to tell a customer that whether they get crashed by another rider, get hit by a car or leave their front wheel in the drive way as they back up car up over it their wheels will be covered.
I'm not a big lover of Mavic. I don't push their mountain wheels, for example. But the Ksyrium, in my opinion, is a solid product that should be on the wall of any decent bike shop.
Sub 1500g wheels for sub $1000 isn't even a challenge. There are so many options out there.
The Ksyriums have always been hit or miss. Plenty of people love them. However it's impossible for to look past the problems people have had with them. Known problems such as cracks around the nipples, broken spokes and rear hub issues. This isn't another handbuilt vs. factory statement. I have always said that Campagnolo/Fulcrum and Shimano sell excellent wheels.
Is it really responsible to put a 6'9", 300lb rider on a set of Ksyriums? Is it enough to just get the MP3 (an additional cost) for good measure? That falls right into the disposable component problem many industries have now. Put enough of a margin on a component that when purchased with the "warranty" you can simply replace the component 2-4 times and still make a profit. What happens to the rest of the parts? Garbage.
I don't give a rat's arse what the customer insists anymore. If I don't feel comfortable selling something, I won't. This talk about "excitement, cool factor, sex-appeal" is very used car salesman (forgive the stereotype). Components shouldn't need a "warranty" upcharge.
This line "my customers to love their bikes for more than their ability to ride well without failing." I know that the dollar signs ring up in the eyes when they come in, but learning to say no when a purchase doesn't make sense is the right thing to do. Will some customers leave? Sure. Once they realize they can get a better price online, they will probably leave anyway (what else are you offering them?). Will other customers realize you are a straight shooter and trust your word? Yes. It couldn't hurt to use experience in the industry to help the customer be better informed.
That's where it's really at. I sleep better that way.
Sorry, it's pre-coffee AM. Even worse, I'm trying to get down to 2 cups instead of 4.
WickedWheels
02-08-2011, 12:14 PM
I'd also like to add that shops don't see as many broken Shimano and Campy wheels simply because Mavic outsells them by such a large amount.
Again... Ksyriums are not perfect but are a solid all-around option that offer the best balance of all the wheel characteristics my customers are asking for.
But there are Ksyriums coming back to shops for service. I think that data point is far more useful than a few riders that have ridden them trouble free. I'll go out on a limb and say that most shops see fewer Campagnolo and Shimano wheels come back for service as they do Mavic. At least that's my experience.
WickedWheels
02-08-2011, 12:22 PM
So you simply refuse to sell you customers stuff that they want? Why not do what they want, but with a disclaimer? If time proves you right they will trust you that much more. If not... well, then either you were too conservative or perhaps misjudged you customers riding.
Well said, I agree completely. I say no to people that want wheels that are not appropriate to them and their riding all the time. Recently a gent wanted DT415, 28h, 2 cross, Revs spokes front and back. He was large, I said no thanks.
How it works is you sell those(like a MO place I know), they are not appropriate, even tho they were the customer's idea, they go to hell early on and it's the wheelbuilder's fault..your name is now mud.
I admit I am very conservative in my wheel design philosophy but the wheels, like the bike, are 'there to get you there'. The object of the ride is the ride, not the bike(or wheels). I shy away from whizbangery.
christian
02-08-2011, 01:51 PM
Sure, a handbuilt wheelset can be done to be reasonably light and very strong... but in my experience a lot of people want wheels that look flashier.A lot of people are idiots. Many of them bought Porsche Cayennes. That doesn't make it the right choice.
I'd also like to add that shops don't see as many broken Shimano and Campy wheels simply because Mavic outsells them by such a large amount. When I worked in a shop, we almost never saw broken handbuilts, either. Surely that can't be because Ksyriums outsell handbuilts (this was circa 1995).
Ksyriums are not perfect but are a solid all-around option that offer the best balance of all the wheel characteristics my customers are asking for.Isn't the fundamental issue that people are asking for the wrong thing. The moment they ask for user-serviceability, Ksyriums fall out the window.
firerescuefin
02-08-2011, 02:17 PM
Isn't the fundamental issue that people are asking for the wrong thing. The moment they ask for user-serviceability, Ksyriums fall out the window.
I work on my own bikes to a point....don't rebuild shifters, send them off to Old Potatoe..literally.
Ksyriums have met my needs for 10 years. They are easy for me to true (although only have had to once).
Have I rebuilt one...no. Will I, if need be...no.
Do I expect a wheel to give up the ghost at some point....yes. I expect that an alumium/composite wheel is going to die after a certain amount of use/abuse.
Christian, I am not sure where you are going with this post...and although I respect Peter and Eric....how many thousands of pairs of Ksyriums are out there. I would expect to see more come back through the shop. It would be like someone bitching that more Accords come through a auto repair shop than Mercury Tracers....and how many of those wheels are abused by the riders who purchased them. I am amazed (as I am sure many of you are) on a large group ride regarding the working order of the bikes on the ride. "Uh, you may want to oil that chain, and adjust the drivetrain before the Triple Bypass/Copper Triangle/Etc."
I will look into handbuilts for my next set of wheels, but I don't worry about how "serviceable" my Mavics are while out on a ride.
oldpotatoe
02-08-2011, 02:21 PM
So you simply refuse to sell you customers stuff that they want? Why not do what they want, but with a disclaimer? If time proves you right they will trust you that much more. If not... well, then either you were too conservative or perhaps misjudged you customers riding.
Disclaimers don't work, "this is not such a great idea Mr. Jones, you really need 36 hole wheels"....gets 28h, they go to hell early, then your name is mud.
"If you didn't think they were a good idea, why you'd sell them to me?"
a 300 pound guy on Ksyriums comes to mind.
I had a customer who wanted to buy a tandem from me(Calfee, when I sold them), and his Captain/stoker 'package' was 340 pounds. He wanted Ksyriums also, I said no.
Yes, there are certain things I don't sell. I calmly try to inform them that what they may 'want', is not the best choice for the $. Most listen and then see how great that 'thing' is and trust me for other things.
I guess you can be 'too conservative', but in the long run for a biz, I think erring on the side of conservation rather than 'just good/strong enough, maybe' side means you won't strand a cyclist somewhere.
For Ksyriums, they are marketing driven. If they wanted to improve the rear hub, they could, they just choose not to. They could add 50 grams to the rim, they just choose not to. That bugs me. For $1000, I think the wheels should be a better design.
ergott
02-08-2011, 02:38 PM
Show me another $1000 wheelset that balances all three (weight, strength and price) as well as the Ksyriums... let's say within 50g.
Shimano 7850
Fulcrum Racing 1
Campagnolo Zonda
Neuvation
Williams Wheels
plenty of handbuilt combinations out there as well
It didn't take long to put that list together. They show up on almost every wheel thread and I read great things. All are similar in weight or less and are the same price or less. Some are just as flashy too since that is so important.
WickedWheels
02-08-2011, 05:21 PM
7850's - $200-$300 more (albeit lighter), but not stiff enough for larger guys. Also, I would argue that they're not as strong (for impacts) though with a far superior hub and probably better long-term durability assuming no impacts.
Fulcrum Racing 1- great wheel but much more expensive than Ksyrium
Campy Zonda - great hubs, but not as stiff and heavier. Not a bad option. I'll give you this one. However, less serviceable than Mavic simply due to the popularity/availability of the Mavic and its replacement parts. Compares better to the Ksyrium Elite, which is cheaper.
Neuvation - not as durable, but cheaper. Even worse hub than Mavic. Great warranty, though.
Williams - I'm just not familiar with them.
Shimano 7850
Fulcrum Racing 1
Campagnolo Zonda
Neuvation
Williams Wheels
plenty of handbuilt combinations out there as well
It didn't take long to put that list together. They show up on almost every wheel thread and I read great things. All are similar in weight or less and are the same price or less. Some are just as flashy too since that is so important.
WickedWheels
02-08-2011, 05:26 PM
I really like the "I told you so" approach. I think it wins me more points than "I won't sell it to you". I take the latter approach when it comes to selling wrong size bikes and most people don't appreciate it. Especially when selling kids bikes (to parents looking to get their kid into a bike 3 sizes too big so they won't have to buy another for a while).
The 300 lb guy was well-informed that custom wheels would be best but he wanted something that looked cooler than 36 hole traditional wheels. He's aware of the fact that at his mileage he's riding 3-year wheels (at best) and don't mind replacing them after that time period. I'll be happy to sell him another wheelset that he likes the look of in a few years.
I wonder... if Calfee offered an "MP3-type" warranty would you have sold your customer the tandem with a disclaimer? I would have... and the warranty, of course.
Disclaimers don't work, "this is not such a great idea Mr. Jones, you really need 36 hole wheels"....gets 28h, they go to hell early, then your name is mud.
"If you didn't think they were a good idea, why you'd sell them to me?"
a 300 pound guy on Ksyriums comes to mind.
I had a customer who wanted to buy a tandem from me(Calfee, when I sold them), and his Captain/stoker 'package' was 340 pounds. He wanted Ksyriums also, I said no.
Yes, there are certain things I don't sell. I calmly try to inform them that what they may 'want', is not the best choice for the $. Most listen and then see how great that 'thing' is and trust me for other things.
I guess you can be 'too conservative', but in the long run for a biz, I think erring on the side of conservation rather than 'just good/strong enough, maybe' side means you won't strand a cyclist somewhere.
For Ksyriums, they are marketing driven. If they wanted to improve the rear hub, they could, they just choose not to. They could add 50 grams to the rim, they just choose not to. That bugs me. For $1000, I think the wheels should be a better design.
oldpotatoe
02-08-2011, 06:20 PM
I really like the "I told you so" approach. I think it wins me more points than "I won't sell it to you". I take the latter approach when it comes to selling wrong size bikes and most people don't appreciate it. Especially when selling kids bikes (to parents looking to get their kid into a bike 3 sizes too big so they won't have to buy another for a while).
The 300 lb guy was well-informed that custom wheels would be best but he wanted something that looked cooler than 36 hole traditional wheels. He's aware of the fact that at his mileage he's riding 3-year wheels (at best) and don't mind replacing them after that time period. I'll be happy to sell him another wheelset that he likes the look of in a few years.
I wonder... if Calfee offered an "MP3-type" warranty would you have sold your customer the tandem with a disclaimer? I would have... and the warranty, of course.
I have a simplier approach. I will not sell a frame or bike to somebody if it doesn't fit them, period. I do a fit, then order a frame. If the gent wants a Gunnar, doesn't want to pay for a custom and insists, I will too, I won't sell it to them. It will just bite you(me) on the butt.
As for the tandem, no I wouldn't. It just isn't about the $. If he rides the Krysirium and he breaks a wheel, IF he doesn't auger in, I made the wrong choice, he didn't. I'M the expert, I'M the one who's not only putting my rep on the line but I'm the guy that's supposed to be the expert. It just isn't about money. If I sell some junk, and I know it, it's MY fault.
I sold a custom Calfee, delivered, it was the wrong size..sent it back, new frame right size but the rear triangle was crooked. Sent it back. customer was great but you know, he doesn't come in any more and I suspect it was because we sold him on Calfee.
As for the 300 pound guy, those aren't 3 year wheels. No way. He'll be lucky to get 3 months(weeks) outta them.
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