Individual builder vs Company builder

[soul survivor]

Noticed the long blog re Richard Sachs. Have no personal experience or opinion on his bikes or the wait time. But it reminds me of one thought I had when I was deciding who to buy a custom bike from.

While an individual artisan certainly has the potential for matching if not exceeding the quality standards of a company, IMO the likelihood is that the company will have more strict quality control standards than the individual artisan. As well as the need to stand behind their product and many to answer to if they don't.

This is not a comment on any individual artisan -- just my thoughts.

[maxdog]

I would say just the opposite.

[rugbysecondrow]

I would think if you went to the best of both (Serotta, Waterford, IF and then Bedford, Wages, Kirk, Strong), you would see strong quality product with strong backing and support. When you try to go cheap, look for a deal or otherwise cut corners, there is a higher potential for a lesser product.

[brians647]

I would say just the opposite.
agreed.

[thendenjeck]

depends. if your "individual builder" were say, curt goodrich, you apparently may have a problem. however, I have a feeling that if you got a frame from Dave Kirk, you would most likely find yourself the recipient of some incredible customer service. Likewise, there are some companies that do "custom" that i wouldn't trust as far as I could throw em. and then, e.g., there's IF. I've seen em eat bikes that were mis-measured by their fit reps, not even by IF employees.

[Ken Robb]

I have seen the "raw" frames/forks that arrive at Joe Bell's for painting. There is a vast difference in the finish quality. Some just get primer and paint and they look great. Others look crude when they arrive and require a lot of finish work before they can be primed and painted . They are all expensive frames from highly regarded builders. I guess this fits with the idea that some classic Italian race frames rode wonderfully but looked a little crude. They are tools not jewels---------even though some are priced like jewels. :)
Oops-I must add that they are all jewels when JB gets done with them but he has to work a lot harder on some frames/forks than he does on others.

[Louis]

I doubt that even with data one could prove that on average a company's quality control standards exceed those of an individual. Are we talking about a company that churns frames out by the thousands a week? An individual who has only built a few in his/her entire life? It all depends.

Beyond quality control, there are a number of other factors that differentiate the two: price, flexibility in responding to a customer's need / desires etc, etc.

[forrestw]

I think relevant to the RS thread and several recent discussions of Serotta as a builder, there's no one answer.

RS notes that when he actively chose to analyze his technique he made changes that improved alignment and other factors that had a direct cost in production volumes. Having built a one-off last winter I can attest that getting the dimensions dead-on is an extremely exacting and time consuming task.

See SPete's assertions in recent threads (which I think are well founded) that Serotta has done more in terms of perfect frame alignment than any other builder ... also fork design/production, tube drawing etc etc.

Not all big companies spend the time on that and it shows. As an engineer I'm deeply impressed with the work of most of the handbuild-factories (Sorry, Litespeed doesn't fit this list that's just my humble opinion). As an artisan I'm deeply impressed with all of the one-man shops. Those appreciations cross but clearly the scale of production at Serotta allows for some things that are really out of the range of possible for smaller builders.

Cold drawing your own tubing requires a level of investment that an individual builder can't reasonably do. Not all builders put as much effort into exact alignment as RS or Serotta; producing CF forks is probably out of the range of any one-man frame shop. Doing actual engineering testing or applying science to bike construction is also likely the domain of the larger shops; many small builders don't also do painting.

I personally don't need to go to an individual builder, I built my own frame last winter cribbing dimensions from my Legend and resulting in a bike I can setup for fixed gear that's custom fit for how I ride. It's built of a good quality chrome-moly, basically 40 year old technology.

There's no comparing the two, I'm entirely enamored of my own build but I wouldn't like it as well if it were setup as a geared bike. My Legend has incredible lateral stiffness, matched with vertical compliance from its CF seat stays and fork that make it comfortable for 150 mile days and 300 mile weeks. As far as I know, none of these attributes are achievable in any available steel tube set, let alone all of them at once.

Each has its strengths, if you want a bit more science in your custom then I think you need look no farther than Serotta (here, I don't think either IF or Seven measure up but they bring other things to the table). If you want a master to hand-build your bike then you may prefer the one-man shop; happily there are plenty to choose from.

Either way the fundamentals of construction are similar, it takes a certain amount of time to put together the pieces for a custom bike whether it's all built by one guy or a team. Whether you're mitering in a bridgeport for welded construction or hand-filing your miters for lugged, the actual time involved is similar. Same goes for the processes of setting up /tacking the frame and doing the welding / brazing / alignment and finishing.

[soul survivor]

Excellent response. To analogize, when you go to Starbucks, you get a level of quality control that many small coffee shops don't offer -- Starbucks simply cannot afford to blow it big time or their owners and creditors will throw a fit. In contrast, while the small coffee shop needs to watch its quality as well, there simply is a better chance that the sole entrepreneur will blow it. Similarly, Starbucks will most certainly spend more on R&D.

Another example. When a supplier provides raw materials to a large shop, they have a tremendous incentive to provide quality -- an incentive that simply does not exist when providing small quantities to a small artisan buyer. To argue otherwise is to ignore reality.

Now -- this tells you nothing about whether a particular artisan bike builder in fact has strong quality control that matches a larger shop. I'm sure some do -- and some don't.

[Jeff N.]

I would say just the opposite.
As would I. Jeff N.

[Ahneida Ride]

Dunkin donuts used to have great coffee.
Now I visit them only in an emergency.

The Common Grounds in downtown Saratoga has a great cup of Joe.
There is a 4 bucks across the street. Common grounds is always packed.

[Ahneida Ride]

QC is a delicate subject ... What is good enough?

Demand perfection and the bikes never go out the door.

Mr. Bedford used to head up QC at Serotta. And in that position was
perhaps the most despised guy at the factory.

Now he has to critique his own work. Not an enviable position for a
true artisan.

[ergott]

I think there are bad generalizations being made. There are examples of quality and crap from both camps. I own a Serotta that is an example of the highest quality you can get in a bike. The same can be said for my Zanconato. If you do your homework, you won't be let down either way.

[jr59]

Strongly Dis Agree!

[GuyGadois]

I would also say the opposite as the OP. In my opinion the bigger the company or the more people involved in putting out a final product the lower the quality and/or QC. When you get so many hands involved producing a product the employees have less ownership in the final product. When a small manufacturer or owner puts their name on a limited product it means more then when a big company puts their mark on one of many. Just my opinion and I am sure there are many, many exceptions.

Gadois

[rugbysecondrow]

I think there are bad generalizations being made. There are examples of quality and crap from both camps. I own a Serotta that is an example of the highest quality you can get in a bike. The same can be said for my Zanconato. If you do your homework, you won't be let down either way.


Agree and said better than I could have.

[SPOKE]

Pride in your craft matters. Skill and experience matters. Equipment matters too but not nearly as much as the other three.

[Aaron O]

I have what I would consider to be one of the finest machined production steel bikes ever built...a 1986 Team Miyata:

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/Photo0489.jpg

The bike is excellent, the frame is straight and it rides very nicely. As nice as it is, it doesn't have the same level of artistry and beauty that my Richard Sachs has. The ride quality of bicycles is extremely subjective and I think has as much or more to do with saddles and tires as it does the bike. I think we are also influenced by brands and expectations, so we tend to prefer our more expensive bikes. That being said...I like my Sachs more than the Miyata for most applications. It seems to be more balanced, I like my placement on the frame more and it's steadier on descents and sharp turns.

I'm really looking forward to riding my custom Marnati and seeing if having the bike built for you really does make a difference.

[forrestw]

Excellent response. To analogize, when you go to Starbucks, you get a level of quality control that many small coffee shops don't offer

Oh dear, I'm sorry I feel a need to expand/modify your analogy :-)

SB in this scenario would in my mind represent something between Giant and Trek. Through my acquaintance with a quality consultant who I can't name I can hazard a guess that what SB has done to develop a mass-produced espresso is to utilize Design of Experiments (aka Taguchi) methodology to identify blends of mostly inexpensive coffees to approximate the flavor of real gourmet beans. The latter are simply expensive. SB produces yes, something better than Dunkin Donuts but at a price that's far over the value they offer IMNVHO. (I understand that a couple of years back they shut down all stores for a day realizing that their quality was flagging and they needed to improve training.)

I might compare SF based Bluebottle coffee to Serotta. They produce freshly roast bean that makes AMAZING coffee, they're big enough to ship beans via internet order and have presence in Nor/So-Cal and NYC. Their product is expensive, mostly because the input raw material is expensive and they do an amazing job of precision brewing in their retail locations.

I might compare Petes Coffee to Seven. They're not small, but neither are they a nationwide household name. They offer excellent coffee at a price point that's above SB and imo worth what you pay. Most of their counter people actually pay attention to what they're doing and I've seen them adjust when things aren't going perfectly.

Then there was a tiny shop in Bishop CA where the guy behind the counter drew 3 shots getting his machine working to perfection when I ordered a decaf espresso. This guy really had his stuff down but he also wasn't serving up beans with quite the oomph behind them of BlueBottle. Then again I've been in plenty of shops where the people behind the counter clearly couldn't give a rat's ass how they did their work.

Yeah I'm a coffee snob, I won't go in SB - I'd rather make do with DD when I'm on the road. I can do as well as Petes working at home with their beans and invested in 2 bags of Bluebottle's beans when I came back from SF in December. Those were some shots pulled that week!

[Aaron O]

Oh dear, I'm sorry I feel a need to expand/modify your analogy :-)

SB in this scenario would in my mind represent something between Giant and Trek. Through my acquaintance with a quality consultant who I can't name I can hazard a guess that what SB has done to develop a mass-produced espresso is to utilize Design of Experiments (aka Taguchi) methodology to identify blends of mostly inexpensive coffees to approximate the flavor of real gourmet beans. The latter are simply expensive. SB produces yes, something better than Dunkin Donuts but at a price that's far over the value they offer IMNVHO. (I understand that a couple of years back they shut down all stores for a day realizing that their quality was flagging and they needed to improve training.)

I might compare SF based Bluebottle coffee to Serotta. They produce freshly roast bean that makes AMAZING coffee, they're big enough to ship beans via internet order and have presence in Nor/So-Cal and NYC. Their product is expensive, mostly because the input raw material is expensive and they do an amazing job of precision brewing in their retail locations.

I might compare Petes Coffee to Seven. They're not small, but neither are they a nationwide household name. They offer excellent coffee at a price point that's above SB and imo worth what you pay. Most of their counter people actually pay attention to what they're doing and I've seen them adjust when things aren't going perfectly.

Then there was a tiny shop in Bishop CA where the guy behind the counter drew 3 shots getting his machine working to perfection when I ordered a decaf espresso. This guy really had his stuff down but he also wasn't serving up beans with quite the oomph behind them of BlueBottle. Then again I've been in plenty of shops where the people behind the counter clearly couldn't give a rat's ass how they did their work.

Yeah I'm a coffee snob, I won't go in SB - I'd rather make do with DD when I'm on the road. I can do as well as Petes working at home with their beans and invested in 2 bags of Bluebottle's beans when I came back from SF in December. Those were some shots pulled that week!

I managed a coffee shop in my younger and poorer days...I actually had to take training courses on coffee.

Starbucks is utter garbage, it's cheap beans that they burn the hell out of. They've convinced people that burnt beans equate with quality. In reality different beans from different regions require different levels of roasting...they take delicate beans and burn the crap out of them. They also were sued as I recall for selling Kona coffee that was something like 5% Kona beans.

To me this makes Starbucks the Colnago of coffee.

I'll take Dunkin Donuts over Starbucks every day of the week. Even that statement can be misleading because not all Dunkin Donuts are equal in their coffee preparation.

[rugbysecondrow]

Thanks, I will have to look into some of the places you mentioned.

[beer_meister]

To me this makes Starbucks the Colnago of coffee.



What tha hell is that statement supposed to mean ??

[maxdog]

Oh dear, I'm sorry I feel a need to expand/modify your analogy :-)

SB in this scenario would in my mind represent something between Giant and Trek. Through my acquaintance with a quality consultant who I can't name I can hazard a guess that what SB has done to develop a mass-produced espresso is to utilize Design of Experiments (aka Taguchi) methodology to identify blends of mostly inexpensive coffees to approximate the flavor of real gourmet beans. The latter are simply expensive. SB produces yes, something better than Dunkin Donuts but at a price that's far over the value they offer IMNVHO. (I understand that a couple of years back they shut down all stores for a day realizing that their quality was flagging and they needed to improve training.)

I might compare SF based Bluebottle coffee to Serotta. They produce freshly roast bean that makes AMAZING coffee, they're big enough to ship beans via internet order and have presence in Nor/So-Cal and NYC. Their product is expensive, mostly because the input raw material is expensive and they do an amazing job of precision brewing in their retail locations.

I might compare Petes Coffee to Seven. They're not small, but neither are they a nationwide household name. They offer excellent coffee at a price point that's above SB and imo worth what you pay. Most of their counter people actually pay attention to what they're doing and I've seen them adjust when things aren't going perfectly.

Then there was a tiny shop in Bishop CA where the guy behind the counter drew 3 shots getting his machine working to perfection when I ordered a decaf espresso. This guy really had his stuff down but he also wasn't serving up beans with quite the oomph behind them of BlueBottle. Then again I've been in plenty of shops where the people behind the counter clearly couldn't give a rat's ass how they did their work.

Yeah I'm a coffee snob, I won't go in SB - I'd rather make do with DD when I'm on the road. I can do as well as Petes working at home with their beans and invested in 2 bags of Bluebottle's beans when I came back from SF in December. Those were some shots pulled that week!

+1 When I use Blue Bottle roast or any other good beans, every shot I pull with my Pavoni is infinitely better than SB espresso. No steam or tamping pressure gauge or any other 'quality' control, just years of experience, a good hand crank grinder (Zassenhaus) and some excellent roast. With SB, as with many corp. products, your paying a premium for marketing, branding and shareholder value.

[Ti Designs]

Dunkin donuts used to have great coffee.
Now I visit them only in an emergency.


A coffee emergency???


I might compare Petes Coffee to Seven.

No, they're across the street...

[Charles M]

I have good relationships with a few custom guys and dont want to stir the pot, But I've seen great work and ???? work from stand alone builders.

Anyone suggesting that a one man shop means more tallent or "soul" is going in to the bikes that several top line companies is plain full of *****.


Not saying stand alone builders dont stack up. I would take my last bike, blind from Crumpton or Sachs or any of a number of well known guys.

I would also take my last bike blind from Serotta or Parlee or any of a number of well respected companies.

And I've seen some unacceptable things from companies (that I wouldnt buy from).



Taking things on blind faith one way or the other is a mistake. People and companies earn reputations. They also make mistakes.


For a one man shop or company to suggest blind faith or a better product because of the size of an organization is narrow minded.

[Pete Serotta]

and the frame that measures up to that Quality frame is for you -When you pick it then it is for you and a high quality.

Small verses large Companies has pluses and minuses. I do not think one is always the highest quality.

If the paint is high quality cornerstone = then Joe Bell is an artist on detail and paint quality. Joe Bell is one who has been painting and building for over 25 years/ Bill at Serotta and his team are also excellent as is Tom Kellogg.


Just my personal view from seeing years of bikes that were produced and painted.

[David Kirk]

No offense but this is a silly thread.

Some one man shops hold very tight tolerances and some not so much. Some big shops hold tight tolerances and some not so much.

To say one type of shop is more likely to do build to a certain tolerance is just silly. It's not the size of the shop but the hands and minds that are bellied up to the bench.

Dave

[beer_meister]

No offense but this is a silly thread.

Some one man shops hold very tight tolerances and some not so much. Some big shops hold tight tolerances and some not so much.

To say one type of shop is more likely to do build to a certain tolerance is just silly. It's not the size of the shop but the hands and minds that are bellied up to the bench.

Dave

Very articulately spoken ! :beer:

[ergott]

So which is better

V8 or V12?

Get the idea?

[Ahneida Ride]

Starbucks is utter garbage, it's cheap beans that they burn the hell out of. They've convinced people that burnt beans equate with quality.



I believe that. 4 bucks tastes burnt.

[Sheldon4209]

Experience would influence me more than an individual or company builder.

I like White Castle coffee better than SB or DD.

[pbjbike]

[QUOTE=PezTech]I have good relationships with a few custom guys and dont want to stir the pot, But I've seen great work and ???? work from stand alone builders.

Anyone suggesting that a one man shop means more tallent or "soul" is going in to the bikes that several top line companies is plain full of *****.

Well said, as usual. :beer: