Richard Sachs interview

[fiamme red]

http://pelotonmagazine.com/Artisans/content/17/379/Richard-Sachs-Part-1
http://pelotonmagazine.com/Artisans/content/17/380/Richard-Sachs-Part-2

For those thinking of placing a new order, his book isn't absolutely closed.

PB: How long is the wait for new customers?
RS: It’s less of a wait and more of an ordeal. But another two Obamas at this point and I might be near that last order currently in the queue.

PB: Do you ever anticipate taking new orders again?
RS: I do take orders. There’s some ambiguity surrounding what I do and don’t do and I will try to arrange that disorder here. In late 2008 I stopped taking orders for Richard Sachs Signature road frames from new clients. There was a window of about four weeks left open until all of this went into effect. All along, I have still accepted orders from repeat clients, and for other types (‘cross, for example) of frames. Also, while I didn’t put this in the fine print, I never turned down an order from someone stationed in the military, or from a teacher, or from a member of the clergy. In my mind, folks who fall into these categories are beyond my ever saying no to. If they wanted to get in the queue and be part of the ordeal, so be it, atmo. So, yeah, with the current demand lined up, the delivery is about 7-8 years or so. Data point: I work at a 4-6 frame a month pace, have left spaces open each year for some repair and emergency work, and anticipate continuing to run a ‘cross team whose frames will also need to be made during seasons years from today. I’ve done my best to map it all out and keep it from owning me. It’s my business, but it’s also my life. I don’t want to have or invite stress, atmo.

PB: What’s your pricing like?
RS: The 2010 frame base price is $4,000. Most of my frames are sold as assembled bicycles.

[Aaron O]

http://pelotonmagazine.com/Artisans/content/17/379/Richard-Sachs-Part-1
http://pelotonmagazine.com/Artisans/content/17/380/Richard-Sachs-Part-2

For those thinking of placing a new order, his book isn't absolutely closed.

PB: How long is the wait for new customers?
RS: It’s less of a wait and more of an ordeal. But another two Obamas at this point and I might be near that last order currently in the queue.

PB: Do you ever anticipate taking new orders again?
RS: I do take orders. There’s some ambiguity surrounding what I do and don’t do and I will try to arrange that disorder here. In late 2008 I stopped taking orders for Richard Sachs Signature road frames from new clients. There was a window of about four weeks left open until all of this went into effect. All along, I have still accepted orders from repeat clients, and for other types (‘cross, for example) of frames. Also, while I didn’t put this in the fine print, I never turned down an order from someone stationed in the military, or from a teacher, or from a member of the clergy. In my mind, folks who fall into these categories are beyond my ever saying no to. If they wanted to get in the queue and be part of the ordeal, so be it, atmo. So, yeah, with the current demand lined up, the delivery is about 7-8 years or so. Data point: I work at a 4-6 frame a month pace, have left spaces open each year for some repair and emergency work, and anticipate continuing to run a ‘cross team whose frames will also need to be made during seasons years from today. I’ve done my best to map it all out and keep it from owning me. It’s my business, but it’s also my life. I don’t want to have or invite stress, atmo.

PB: What’s your pricing like?
RS: The 2010 frame base price is $4,000. Most of my frames are sold as assembled bicycles.

I just saw this on the CR list...absolutely fascinating. I find Richard Sachs to be so engrossing, insightful and honest; I do think he'd have made an excellent writer had he pursued Goddard.

The one thing that threw me was why he'd be willing to add a cyclocross frame to his wait list and not a road bike.

[jmeloy]

http://pelotonmagazine.com/Artisans/content/17/379/Richard-Sachs-Part-1
http://pelotonmagazine.com/Artisans/content/17/380/Richard-Sachs-Part-2

For those thinking of placing a new order, his book isn't absolutely closed.

PB: How long is the wait for new customers?
RS: It’s less of a wait and more of an ordeal. But another two Obamas at this point and I might be near that last order currently in the queue.

PB: Do you ever anticipate taking new orders again?
RS: I do take orders. There’s some ambiguity surrounding what I do and don’t do and I will try to arrange that disorder here. In late 2008 I stopped taking orders for Richard Sachs Signature road frames from new clients. There was a window of about four weeks left open until all of this went into effect. All along, I have still accepted orders from repeat clients, and for other types (‘cross, for example) of frames. Also, while I didn’t put this in the fine print, I never turned down an order from someone stationed in the military, or from a teacher, or from a member of the clergy. In my mind, folks who fall into these categories are beyond my ever saying no to. If they wanted to get in the queue and be part of the ordeal, so be it, atmo. So, yeah, with the current demand lined up, the delivery is about 7-8 years or so. Data point: I work at a 4-6 frame a month pace, have left spaces open each year for some repair and emergency work, and anticipate continuing to run a ‘cross team whose frames will also need to be made during seasons years from today. I’ve done my best to map it all out and keep it from owning me. It’s my business, but it’s also my life. I don’t want to have or invite stress, atmo.

PB: What’s your pricing like?
RS: The 2010 frame base price is $4,000. Most of my frames are sold as assembled bicycles.
7-8 years... amazing. I couldn't do it (at my age).

[Aaron O]

7-8 years... amazing. I couldn't do it (at my age).

Given the beauty, balance and ride of my not even made for me Richard Sachs, I totally understand it. I'd GLADLY add my name to his list with the fun and anticipation of 8 years of looking forward to a PERFECT bicycle.

I'm actually debating becoming a teacher just to get on the list :) Maybe he'd count me as a past client since I do have a 2nd hand Sachs.

[54ny77]

cool stuff.

the man sure seems to know his BUSINESS, and i mean the pure business aspect of it. the quality of the frames obviously speak for themselves.

seems like framebuilders come and go for variety of reasons. that he's been around for so long, navigating (or bypassing, rather) trends, business cycles, etc., and still doing well enough to have such a healthy pipeline of biz is really impressive.

just like serotta. how long has serotta been around?

[sg8357]

Members of the Military & Clergy can order bikes....hmmmm

I think I'm going to purchase a commission as the Chaplain of the Polish Winged Hussars.
I suppose Templars would also qualify.

[jmeloy]

I think one of the interesting aspects of Richard is that he does it his way. His beliefs in what a RS should be are so clear and strong. I'd love to take a spin on one.

[nahtnoj]

Get ordained here:

http://www.themonastery.org/

[jr59]

Heck.

I don't want to wait the 4-5 months for my custom Spectrum ti.

He makes good bikes, BUT 7 years? :confused:

At least he's busy and doesn't have to worry about his job. :)

[tele]

hey e-richie, do i get a discount and line jumping rights by being a teacher? that would get me more interested!

[Aaron O]

Ha! I'd love that job security!

Kellog is my second favorite US builder behind Mr. Sachs. His stuff is incredible...I'll have to be content with my TK designed Merlin. I really love his steel stuff...something about his seatstays is really unique to me.

I waited about 6 months to get my Marnati in Milan and it was well worth it...the anticipation was actually part of what was fun. Getting build photos...working out preferences. When I finally saw it, me eyes exploded.

[jr59]

Ha! I'd love that job security!

Kellog is my second favorite US builder behind Mr. Sachs. His stuff is incredible...I'll have to be content with my TK designed Merlin. I really love his steel stuff...something about his seatstays is really unique to me.

I waited about 6 months to get my Marnati in Milan and it was well worth it...the anticipation was actually part of what was fun. Getting build photos...working out preferences. When I finally saw it, me eyes exploded.


My Merlin was the reason I picked Tom K. @ Spectrum.

I KNOW it will be worth the wait. But that doesn't mean I like the wait.

[Fixed]

cheers master sword maker

[Aaron O]

My Merlin was the reason I picked Tom K. @ Spectrum.

I KNOW it will be worth the wait. But that doesn't mean I like the wait.

I'm absolutely in love with my Merlin...EXCEPT the Grease Guard bottom bracket. It works great, and I think it's a smart design, but I'm severely limited in upgrades by the lack of BB flexibility. The most modern crankset i can get on there is DA 7400.

[Climb01742]

richie has earned his gig. more power and props to anyone, who, by skill, effort and persistence, has bent the world to their life, rather than bent their life to the world.

[jr59]

I'm absolutely in love with my Merlin...EXCEPT the Grease Guard bottom bracket. It works great, and I think it's a smart design, but I'm severely limited in upgrades by the lack of BB flexibility. The most modern crankset i can get on there is DA 7400.

I'm not sure,but I think White brothers makes a replacement.

[Aaron O]

I'm not sure,but I think White brothers makes a replacement.

The issue isn't replacing the BB, it's cranksets. Octalink and ultratorque won't work with the square taper BB.

[bicycletricycle]

think you can sell your spot in the line? i wonder what that would be worth

[majorpat]

Richard,

Please allow me to express my thanks that you included forward deployed military in your "don't turn down" list. I've been at it for 20 years now, more or less and have to say that your comments are the best "thanks" I've gotten for my combat service. Many find it easy to shake my hand or say something when I happen to be in uniform but making space in your queue says a lot to a mediocre biker like me.

Pat

[kohlboto]

Members of the Military & Clergy can order bikes....hmmmm

I think I'm going to purchase a commission as the Chaplain of the Polish Winged Hussars.
I suppose Templars would also qualify.

don't forget teachers, too...it looks like I'm in...if i could afford it...and could wait 7 or 8 years...

[fellowpicker]

Another two Obama's and Sachs will be a government owned company.

[e-RICHIE]

Richard,

Please allow me to express my thanks that you included forward deployed military in your "don't turn down" list. I've been at it for 20 years now, more or less and have to say that your comments are the best "thanks" I've gotten for my combat service. Many find it easy to shake my hand or say something when I happen to be in uniform but making space in your queue says a lot to a mediocre biker like me.

Pat

anyone who ever stands a post is not mediocre atmo.
and that's coming from a radical, counterculture anti-everything cat like me.
so - thanks.

ps

arrange disorder

:cool: :cool: :cool:
:) :) :)
:rolleyes: ;) :p

[bike22]

Another two Obama's and Sachs will be a government owned company.
o_O

[pbjbike]

The issue isn't replacing the BB, it's cranksets. Octalink and ultratorque won't work with the square taper BB.

Somehow, Eddy and Bernard, Greg, et al, won major tours with square taper BB's. If you really need a threaded bottom bracket, there's folks out there that can machine away the dreaded WTB rig, and weld in a threaded unit. Won't make you faster tho.

[Fixed]

there are wanna be bike builders and then there are the real deal builders r.s. the real deal
some cats should be welding trailer hitches imho
cheers

[jvp]

Dale just posted 50 more '82 bike show pics, including one of RS
'82 NY bike show (http://www.flickr.com/photos/oroboyz/sets/72157625853974197/)

[PBWrench]

A picture is worth a thousand words, so I posted nearly a million. Thanks Richard.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . pretty happy.

BBD

[oldpotatoe]

7-8 years... amazing. I couldn't do it (at my age).

It's a bicycle. I couldn't, wouldn't do it at any age. RS frames are spectaculor, no doubt but waiting 7-8 years for anything is not something I would ever do.

[yim]

It's a bicycle. I couldn't, wouldn't do it at any age. RS frames are very nice, no doubt but waiting 7-8 years for anything is not something I would ever do.

Why?

Indeed the question is that you want one or not.

Placing an order does not mean that you have to sit down to wait 7 years without a bike to ride.

[oldpotatoe]

Why?

Indeed the question is that you want one or not.

Placing an order does not mean that you have to sit down to wait 7 years without a bike to ride.

Not my point. There are many very nice bicycle frames made today from very skilled craftsmen here, in Asia and in Europe. I have owned in the last years DeRosa(3), Merckx(3), Moots, Waterford(2), Ciocc, Calfee and they all rode really nicely, were durable, were beautiful. I guess I don't want a RS, recognizing they are at the upper end of beautiful, fun to ride, hand made steel bicycle frames. Lots of choices out there, I just don't think waiting 7-8 years is worth it to me...YMMV.

I'm having a custom lugged steel Waterford made for me right now. Should be here on Monday or Tuesday(took 5 weeks). I'll bet it will ride really well, will look really good, will be really durable. It will be fun to ride, every dry day(Moots is my wet weather bike). Bicycle frame=tool for riding.

Look, I admire RS for his philosophy and also his skill and craftmanship, but 7-8 years, not for me thanks.

And perhaps as retired USN Naval Aviator I could actually get on his list but no thanks.

[rugbysecondrow]

I have to agree with Old Pot here. It is not a slight against RS or his work (which speaks for itself), I can't think of any item I would get on a waitlist for. Period. Others can do what they want, I just don't understand it. No worries, it is on a long list of other things I do not understand.



Not my point. There are many very nice bicycle frames made today from very skilled craftsmen here, in Asia and in Europe. I have owned in the last years DeRosa(3), Merckx(3), Moots, Waterford(2), Ciocc, Calfee and they all rode really nicely, were durable, were beautiful. I guess I don't want a RS, recognizing they are at the upper end of beautiful, fun to ride, hand made steel bicycle frames. Lots of choices out there, I just don't think waiting 7-8 years is worth it to me...YMMV.

I'm having a custom lugged steel Waterford made for me right now. Should be here on Monday or Tuesday. I'll bet it will ride really well, will look really good, will be really durable. It will be fun to ride, every dry day(Moots is my wet weather bike). Bicycle frame=tool for riding.

Look, I admire RS for his philosophy and also his skill and craftmanship, but 7-8 years, not for me thanks.

And perhaps as retired USN Naval Aviator I could actually get on his list but no thanks.

[Climb01742]

it's a fair and personal choice about whether to wait or not. i will, though, raise two contextual points:

1. richie didn't create the long wait. customers did, desire did. he's just responding to market forces.

2. with that much pent-up demand, imagine if richie were a different dude, what his pricing structure_could_be. his frames are, i believe, about $4k. very fair, very competitive. all hand-made by an every day master. he could milk the market for a much higher price. he doesn't. that's pretty effing cool.

[jlwdm]

[QUOTE=oldpotatoe]Not my point. There are many very nice bicycle frames made today from very skilled craftsmen here, in Asia and in Europe. I have owned in the last years DeRosa(3), Merckx(3), Moots, Waterford(2), Ciocc, Calfee and they all rode really nicely, were durable, were beautiful. I guess I don't want a RS, recognizing they are at the upper end of beautiful, fun to ride, hand made steel bicycle frames. Lots of choices out there, I just don't think waiting 7-8 years is worth it to me...YMMV.

QUOTE]

I would not wait 7-8 years for a bike, but there are a lot of other great choices like, Kirk, Strong, Bedford and many others that can give you the small builder experience as opposed to the brands mentioned above.

Jeff

[yim]

Not my point. There are many very nice bicycle frames made today from very skilled craftsmen here, in Asia and in Europe. I have owned in the last years DeRosa(3), Merckx(3), Moots, Waterford(2), Ciocc, Calfee and they all rode really nicely, were durable, were beautiful. I guess I don't want a RS, recognizing they are at the upper end of beautiful, fun to ride, hand made steel bicycle frames. Lots of choices out there, I just don't think waiting 7-8 years is worth it to me...YMMV.

I'm having a custom lugged steel Waterford made for me right now. Should be here on Monday or Tuesday(took 5 weeks). I'll bet it will ride really well, will look really good, will be really durable. It will be fun to ride, every dry day(Moots is my wet weather bike). Bicycle frame=tool for riding.

Look, I admire RS for his philosophy and also his skill and craftmanship, but 7-8 years, not for me thanks.

And perhaps as retired USN Naval Aviator I could actually get on his list but no thanks.

That is the point.
No right or wrong.
Simple.

[Lionel]

1. richie didn't create the long wait. customers did, desire did. he's just responding to market forces.

It seems to be a lifestyle choice for him as well. If he wanted to he could produce many more frames than he does (I'm guessing 4 times more).

[rugbysecondrow]

I agree, with the caveat that that closing the books (so to say) created some demand. Nothing wrong at all and no issues with what RS does business wise. I am viewing this strictly from my consumer perspective. Others obviously made a different decision.

it's a fair and personal choice about whether to wait or not. i will, though, raise two contextual points:

1. richie didn't create the long wait. customers did, desire did. he's just responding to market forces.

2. with that much pent-up demand, imagine if richie were a different dude, what his pricing structure_could_be. his frames are, i believe, about $4k. very fair, very competitive. all hand-made by an every day master. he could milk the market for a much higher price. he doesn't. that's pretty effing cool.

[StellaBlue]

richie didn't create the long wait. customers did, desire did. he's just responding to market forces.

The pace he chooses to build is the #1 reason for his 7 year wait. Don't kid yourself or anyone else on here. Nothing wrong with it but that is the reason for his wait time...

[veloduffer]

The pace he chooses to build is the #1 reason for his 7 year wait. Don't kid yourself or anyone else on here. Nothing wrong with it but that is the reason for his wait time...

I don't think you want Richie to crank out frames in volume - it's the craftsmanship that you're paying for. Like a fine watch personalized for you. When I got into cycling over 20 yrs ago and learned more about the sport and history, I was drawn toward Sachs and Weigle. After riding a really nice Bridgestone RB-1, I saved my pennies and got on Sachs wait list (7 months back in 2000).

To get the full experience, I went to Richie's shop in Chester, brought my bike and got fitted. Rich gave me a tour and we discussed a few things (riding style, current bike's fit). But I entrusted the design to him, since he was more experienced than myself and heck, that is one of the main reasons for buying a Sachs. Rich sent me the design and some goodies and kept me up to date. When it was done, I drove back up to pick up the frame and had a nice lunch with him. I did the build myself, as that was part of the fun for me. To me, Rich's framebuilding shop as one man workforce embodies the romantic vision of craftsmanship.

If you really want a Sachs, I would highly recommend getting on the list. It's just something to savor a bit more.

[ergott]

It seems to be a lifestyle choice for him as well. If he wanted to he could produce many more frames than he does (I'm guessing 4 times more).

I don't think it's even remotely fair to comment on the rate in which he builds frames. He has posted before that he leaves room in there for team orders, repeat customers, and repairs. He is an active racer, he attends a show here and there. He has a personal life.

Posters insinuating that he is sandbagging to inflate demand is ludicrous and defamatory at best.

Wait or don't. It's a personal choice.

[ergott]

The pace he chooses to build is the #1 reason for his 7 year wait. Don't kid yourself or anyone else on here. Nothing wrong with it but that is the reason for his wait time...

Show me some data to back that up. Surely you must have access to his waiting list to make that statement.

[StellaBlue]

I don't think you want Richie to crank out frames in volume - it's the craftsmanship that you're paying for. Like a fine watch personalized for you.

It's not a matter of cranking them out. Look how many frames he builds a year. He can easily double that with no lose of quality.

[StellaBlue]

Show me some data to back that up. Surely you must have access to his waiting list to make that statement.

"I work at a 4-6 frame a month pace"..

Here you go...

[ergott]

Look, I admire RS for his philosophy and also his skill and craftmanship, but 7-8 years, not for me thanks.


Why did I choose to wait (not that you asked)?

It's not like I sit at home counting days. I put the deposit in. I continue riding other bikes and forget all about it most of the time. Then, one day I will get an email asking for my measurements and the like. When that time comes, great. Until then, I really don't consider it waiting as I have too many other things to do in life to care.

[ergott]

"I work at a 4-6 frame a month pace"..

Here you go...

Have you timed him to see how long each frame takes? Have you looked into his other activities?

Besides the fact that he is a great frame builder (plenty of others out there), he actively races and supports a team. He helped other frame builders get their start. He collaborated with Dario on a tubeset. He promotes his brand.

If he feels comfortable with that productions pace, fine. If cranking 4 times as many frames makes him like the process less and he is not at his best, I don't want one.

Bottom line, it's none of my business or anyone else's what his capacity is.

[StellaBlue]

If you really want a Sachs, I would highly recommend getting on the list. It's just something to savor a bit more.

I don't. I'm quite happy with my Duende and expect to be even happier with my Respo that will be here in 2 weeks..

He bulids a top notch frame but the pace HE CHOOSES to work at is the major contributing factor to his wait time. Hey, I assume he has other things he likes to do than weld. God bless him..

[rugbysecondrow]

I agree with all of this. None of our business. It seems he does much good in the industry, cares about racing, promoting other riders via his team, other builders...oh, and he builds great bikes for folks etc. I don't see this as a right or a wrong way to buy, just personal preference regarding purchases and obligations. No worries. I am happy that folks are happy being on the list. Just not right for me.

Have you timed him to see how long each frame takes? Have you looked into his other activities?

Besides the fact that he is a great frame builder (plenty of others out there), he actively races and supports a team. He helped other frame builders get their start. He collaborated with Dario on a tubeset. He promotes his brand.

If he feels comfortable with that productions pace, fine. If cranking 4 times as many frames makes him like the process less and he is not at his best, I don't want one.

Bottom line, it's none of my business or anyone else's what his capacity is.

[BillG]

Remember, if you're on the list you do get holiday cards and twizzlers while you wait!

[happycampyer]

For as long as I can recall, e-Richie has had a page on his website promoting other framebuilders called The Next Wave (http://www.richardsachs.com/site/the-next-wave/). e-Richie's wait list started to really grow in the middle of last decade, well before he closed the list to new customers, and he has always made a point to encourage potential customers to seek out other builders, particularly those who don't want to wait.

His latest brainchild, Smoked Out, has created a treasure trove of information about and insight into dozens of framebuilders. It's hard to find another person in the industry that has done anywhere near as much to promote custom framebuilders as a whole (Don Walker's championing of NAHBS comes to mind, but it drops off pretty sharply after that).

[Ahneida Ride]

"I work at a 4-6 frame a month pace"..

Here you go...

That's 48 - 72 frame per year ..... :eek:

actually ... one lugged frame per week is ambitious,
at least that is what I hear from frame builders I know and the rumor mill.
One does not exactly throw together a finely tuned lugged frame.

30-40 lugged frames per year is an expected value.

If e-Richie is pumping out 4-6 frames per month, (plus repairs & builds)
I'd say he is a busy beaver.

at that rate, If Richie stayed off the Phorums, he could create more bikes
then the fed shopping coupons. :rolleyes:

[Aaron O]

Have you timed him to see how long each frame takes? Have you looked into his other activities?

Besides the fact that he is a great frame builder (plenty of others out there), he actively races and supports a team. He helped other frame builders get their start. He collaborated with Dario on a tubeset. He promotes his brand.

If he feels comfortable with that productions pace, fine. If cranking 4 times as many frames makes him like the process less and he is not at his best, I don't want one.

Bottom line, it's none of my business or anyone else's what his capacity is.

This thread is giving me more reason than any other to jump on that list for a cyclocross bike. 7-8 years comes and goes and you're going to have a special and unique bike made by Richard Sachs at the end of it. You get to look forward to that for YEARS. How much do we really get to look forward to as adults? We work. We have wives and children and responsibilities. This gives you something special to look forward to. The wait and anticipation is part of what makes it so special. The fact that he builds so few is part of what makes it so special.

I know damn well Bilenky can make a beautiful frame that will be more bike than I'll ever need...and I can have it in a few months. Bilenky, like RS, is a great cycling advocate and a very cool person. It's still not a Richard Sachs. The second hand one I own is special...I can not imagine one built for me. There really is something unique about the ride quality...I think the BB is higher.

[Lifelover]

I don't think it's even remotely fair to comment on the rate in which he builds frames. He has posted before that he leaves room in there for team orders, repeat customers, and repairs. He is an active racer, he attends a show here and there. He has a personal life.

Posters insinuating that he is sandbagging to inflate demand is ludicrous and defamatory at best.

Wait or don't. It's a personal choice.

Nobody is claiming he is sandbagging. However, he has clearly made a business decision to spend time doing other thinks than making frames.

He would be a fool to tell us, but I suspect at on point in his career (under the Brand Richard Sachs) he produced considerably more frames than he does now.

....
Bottom line, it's none of my business or anyone else's what his capacity is.

This is the freakn internet. If we only talked about what is our business than you would not have responded either.

[rugbysecondrow]

This thread is giving me more reason than any other to jump on that list for a cyclocross bike. 7-8 years comes and goes and you're going to have a special and unique bike made by Richard Sachs at the end of it. You get to look forward to that for YEARS. How much do we really get to look forward to as adults? We work. We have wives and children and responsibilities. This gives you something special to look forward to. The wait and anticipation is part of what makes it so special. The fact that he builds so few is part of what makes it so special.

.

My man, my wife and kids ARE what I look forward to. Riding is a tangent. If I order a bike, I want it sooner rather than later. I am confident there are others who can build you an equally fantastic bike within a year and without all the unfulfilled daydreams and delayed gratification. It is only a bike. Bedford has a 6 month wait, Kirk has a 9 monthish wait, not sure about Wages, but I am sure it is not 8 years. When can Tom Kellogg get you a bike. The mystique and hype should be separated from the reality. Lots of equally qualified folks who can build you a dream bike. Life is too effin short to wait 8 years for a bike.

[Aaron O]

My man, my wife and kids ARE what I look forward to. Riding is a tangent. If I order a bike, I want it sooner rather than later. I am confident there are others who can build you an equally fantastic bike within a year and without all the unfulfilled daydreams and delayed gratification. It is only a bike. Bedford has a 6 month wait, Kirk has a 9 monthish wait, not sure about Wages, but I am sure it is not 8 years. When can Tom Kellogg get you a bike. The mystique and hype should be separated from the reality. Lots of equally qualified folks who can build you a dream bike. Life is too effin short to wait 8 years for a bike.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying at all. Of course our families are our focus and priority. As adults, we get very few things that are strictly for us...and this would be something for us. Most of what we do is for them...it's for our jobs. Of course there are a hundred other builders who can make an excellent bike. Bilenky, as I said, can make an excellent bike. I've ridden Spectrums...TK is AMAZING. At my current riding ability it wouldn't really make much difference anyway.

None of that matters...Sachs is almost unique in terms of reputation and legend. That's why he has a 7-8 year wait. Spectrum has another employee. Bilenky has several. There is something cool about RS working alone. The myth and mystique are part of what makes it special...like Eisentraut, or Confente. He is the frame builder's frame builder. Do you honestly believe a Confente has special magical properties that make it distinctly better than a de rosa? Yet they sell for 10grand plus...and that is what Sachs is and will be.

[93legendti]

It's possible that both factions have a point.

You wouldn't get on RS's list and forego a needed bike for 7-8 years.

If you like Sachs' bikes and can afford the deposit, get on the list and don't count days.

[Lionel]

I think the BB is higher.
You mean lower...

[Aaron O]

It's possible that both factions have a point.

You wouldn't get on RS's list and forego a needed bike for 7-8 years.

If you like Sachs' bikes and can afford the deposit, get on the list and don't count days.

I'm going to chat with my wife and get on...just decided. Assuming she let's me :no:

[wgp]

Another two Obama's and Sachs will be a government owned company.

You must be kidding, right? Unbelievably gratuitous comment, but to each his own I guess.

[ergott]

This is the freakn internet. If we only talked about what is our business than you would not have responded either.

I responded publically to what others posted publically. Never did I make any lame attempts to assume I knew more about someone else's business than do.

Misinformation is worse than ignorance.

[Aaron O]

You must be kidding, right? Unbelievably gratuitous comment, but to each his own I guess.

He's also not a citizen, is a Chinese/Muslim/alien terrorist plant and wants to deny health care to your grand mother.

I almost forgot...Egypt is his fault, Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan are his fault and I have reliable information that the 1929 stock market crash was his fault.

[Fixed]

he likes nice shoes send him some and you might move up imho
cheers

[93legendti]

:D I'm going to chat with my wife and get on...just decided. Assuming she let's me :no:
Oh great, another woman will be mad at me. :D

[soulspinner]

it's a fair and personal choice about whether to wait or not. i will, though, raise two contextual points:

1. richie didn't create the long wait. customers did, desire did. he's just responding to market forces.

2. with that much pent-up demand, imagine if richie were a different dude, what his pricing structure_could_be. his frames are, i believe, about $4k. very fair, very competitive. all hand-made by an every day master. he could milk the market for a much higher price. he doesn't. that's pretty effing cool.

This is what stuns me-7 plus year wait and 4grand(now money, I know) does seem extremely worth it......... :cool:

[rugbysecondrow]

I don't think you understand what I'm saying at all. Of course our families are our focus and priority. As adults, we get very few things that are strictly for us...and this would be something for us. Most of what we do is for them...it's for our jobs. Of course there are a hundred other builders who can make an excellent bike. Bilenky, as I said, can make an excellent bike. I've ridden Spectrums...TK is AMAZING. At my current riding ability it wouldn't really make much difference anyway.

None of that matters...Sachs is almost unique in terms of reputation and legend. That's why he has a 7-8 year wait. Spectrum has another employee. Bilenky has several. There is something cool about RS working alone. The myth and mystique are part of what makes it special...like Eisentraut, or Confente. He is the frame builder's frame builder. Do you honestly believe a Confente has special magical properties that make it distinctly better than a de rosa? Yet they sell for 10grand plus...and that is what Sachs is and will be.

I understand what you wrote, I also know it is just a bike. That is why I said separating the hype from the reality is important. If you have a dream bike, one that tickles your fancy, why wait 8 years? It might be having a Sachs and only a Sachs is your dream, but if that bike can be built now, why put it off? Why wait 1/10th of your life, `1/5th of your best adult years waiting for a bike? Sorry, only hype would make somebody do that. The reality is that there are some equals who could do it in the present. Again, life is to short to delay gratification for something like a bike. We likely view bikes and their purpose differently.

[Johny]

"Some men see things as they are and say why - I dream things that never were and say why not." -- George Bernard Shaw

[Lifelover]

I'm going to chat with my wife and get on...just decided. Assuming she let's me :no:


Good luck with that. Let us know if he lets you on.

[Aaron O]

I understand what you wrote, I also know it is just a bike. That is why I said separating the hype from the reality is important. If you have a dream bike, one that tickles your fancy, why wait 8 years? It might be having a Sachs and only a Sachs is your dream, but if that bike can be built now, why put it off? Why wait 1/10th of your life, `1/5th of your best adult years waiting for a bike? Sorry, only hype would make somebody do that. The reality is that there are some equals who could do it in the present. Again, life is to short to delay gratification for something like a bike. We likely view bikes and their purpose differently.

It's for individual evaluation. I already have my custom dream build...anything else is gravy. I can gladly afford the wait and the money, so for me...I'm doing it! Assuming I can sell my wife on it anyway.

This is my dream build by the way:

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/Photo0473-1.jpg

She was custom made in Milan...I picked it up on my honeymoon. It's painted my wife's favorite colors. Like Sachs, Marnati works completely alone and is an artisan doing this because he loves it.

Good luck with that. Let us know if he lets you on.

According to the interview, he will add folks on for Cross bikes.

[thendenjeck]

I don't see why you guys respond to StellaBlue anymore, he's just a contrarian knowitall pr*** out to piss you off while chugging the haterade.

and re: the longer wait on road bikes, I think he's just more into cross these days.

[StellaBlue]

I don't think it's even remotely fair to comment on the rate in which he builds frames. He has posted before that he leaves room in there for team orders, repeat customers, and repairs. He is an active racer, he attends a show here and there. He has a personal life.

Posters insinuating that he is sandbagging to inflate demand is ludicrous and defamatory at best.

Wait or don't. It's a personal choice.

A: You insinuated sandbagging. No one else. I said he builds (by choice) less frames year then others in said class of builders. If he chooses to produce 2-3 times less then the others his wait will be 2-3 times more than the others. Read into it all you like.

[StellaBlue]

I don't see why you guys respond to StellaBlue anymore, he's just a contrarian knowitall pr*** out to piss you off while chugging the haterade.

and re: the longer wait on road bikes, I think he's just more into cross these days.

I think there is an ignore button. Hit it. I won't be insulted.. I don't drink haterade, nor do I drink the kool aid..

I didn't before or now have a problem with the folks who wanna wait 7 years or the ones who don't. I also have a realistic idea of the reason for the wait. Many obviously don't. And that's just fine with me...

[ergott]

A: You insinuated sandbagging. No one else. I said he builds (by choice) less frames year then others in said class of builders. If he chooses to produce 2-3 times less then the others his wait will be 2-3 times more than the others. Read into it all you like.

My response was to someone else, not you.

[ergott]

I also have a realistic idea of the reason for the wait. Many obviously don't. And that's just fine with me...

By all means, please share your idea with us.

[54ny77]

the estrogen runs strong on this thread.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_AXbKGzGnIv4/TQG-wbYDdLI/AAAAAAAAAEE/lUuCvEkVgHg/s1600/barbara-walters-50608-2dddddd.jpg

[thendenjeck]

I'm glad you know so much about how long it takes to make a frame. as was said earlier, 4 to 6 high quality, actually handmade frames a month is alot, especially when running a team which he hand builds all the bikes for personally every single year. if he was churning out 18 frames a month, they wouldn't still be handmade from start to finish by RS, end of story. they would be cut by one person, tacked by someone else, brazed by RS. or some such arrangement.

what is with this forum and getting all up in small builder's business anyway? who are you to judge how one of the top builders runs his business?

[StellaBlue]

By all means, please share your idea with us.

I already did. He chooses to produce X amount of frames a year. That amount is less than many the builders in his class. Hence the wait is longer. I'm I not making my opinion clear?

[ergott]

I already did. He chooses to produce X amount of frames a year. That amount is less than many the builders in his class. Hence the wait is longer. I'm I not making my opinion clear?

That's not a reason. You said he has a reason.

[Aaron O]

I'm glad you know so much about how long it takes to make a frame. as was said earlier, 4 to 6 high quality, actually handmade frames a month is alot, especially when running a team which he hand builds all the bikes for personally every single year. if he was churning out 18 frames a month, they wouldn't still be handmade from start to finish by RS, end of story. they would be cut by one person, tacked by someone else, brazed by RS. or some such arrangement.

what is with this forum and getting all up in small builder's business anyway? who are you to judge how one of the top builders runs his business?

Exactly. Thank you. Those other builders making more frames usually aren't working alone. Rugby used the TK example...TK doesn't make frames. The man spends time talking about bikes with us to promote not just himself (he clearly doesn't need any more promotion), but all frame builders. He contributes to the sport and he makes truly beautiful machines.

I would argue this is worth 7-8 years:

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/Photo0498.jpg

[e-RICHIE]

I think there is an ignore button. Hit it. I won't be insulted.. I don't drink haterade, nor do I drink the kool aid..

I didn't before or now have a problem with the folks who wanna wait 7 years or the ones who don't. I also have a realistic idea of the reason for the wait. Many obviously don't. And that's just fine with me...


this is an amazing thread atmo. the reason there's a wait, such as it is, is because almost
400 cats are in front of the last order currently on the books. i find it interesting that folks
will have such strong opinions about others who would elect to wait years for delivery, yet
spend days debating the merits. time obviously has different meaning to different people. and
PS for the sake of accuracy, it was flavor-aid not kool-aid.

ps

arrange disorder

:) :) :)
:) :) :cool:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :p

[thendenjeck]

....

[130R]

I don't think you understand what I'm saying at all. Of course our families are our focus and priority. As adults, we get very few things that are strictly for us...and this would be something for us. Most of what we do is for them...it's for our jobs. Of course there are a hundred other builders who can make an excellent bike. Bilenky, as I said, can make an excellent bike. I've ridden Spectrums...TK is AMAZING. At my current riding ability it wouldn't really make much difference anyway.

None of that matters...Sachs is almost unique in terms of reputation and legend. That's why he has a 7-8 year wait. Spectrum has another employee. Bilenky has several. There is something cool about RS working alone. The myth and mystique are part of what makes it special...like Eisentraut, or Confente. He is the frame builder's frame builder. Do you honestly believe a Confente has special magical properties that make it distinctly better than a de rosa? Yet they sell for 10grand plus...and that is what Sachs is and will be.

dude lay off the pipe. in the end it's just a bike.

[StellaBlue]

this is an amazing thread atmo. the reason there's a wait, such as it is, is because almost
400 cats are in front of the last order currently on the books. i find it interesting that folks
will have such strong opinions about others who would elect to wait years for delivery, yet
spend days debating the merits. time obviously has different meaning to different people. and
PS for the sake of accuracy, it was flavor-aid not kool-aid.

ps

arrange disorder

:) :) :)
:) :) :cool:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :p

You like others can read into ones statements all you like. You quote a reply where I actually say I don't have a problem with people who are willing to or not wait for a frame.

You say 400 people ( I won't use that term "cats") are in the wait list. I'm sure different builders will deliver that amount of frames in different schedules.
Again. There isn't anything right or wrong with that.

PS: to sum it, like someone alluded to, I'm pretty sure their was a time you produced more than you are willingly able to at this time. Hence the wait is increasing. Don't take it as an insult. It's just a numbers game in my opinion.

[ergott]

You like others can read into ones statements all you like. You quote a reply where I actually say I don't have a problem with people who are willing to or not wait for a frame.

You say 400 people ( I won't use that term "cats") are in the wait list. I'm sure different builders will deliver that amount of frames in different schedules.
Again. There isn't anything right or wrong with that.


Still waiting for the reason. I wouldn't want to misinterpret your idea for the reason.

[Aaron O]

dude lay off the pipe. in the end it's just a bike.

Dude...worry about yourself...and buy a huffy. If you don't understand the difference between a handbuilt for you Sachs and "just a bike" you probably shouldn't be on a forum for a custom builder.

[StellaBlue]

I wouldn't want to misinterpret your idea for the reason.

Why start now?

[ergott]

Why start now?

Still no reason.

That's what I thought you would/wouldn't say.

[StellaBlue]

Still no reason.

That's what I thought you would/wouldn't say.

I gave my reason.. Read the thread again.. You don't like or agree with it is another thing.

[Fixed]

be happy you are healthy enough to wait 8 years
a lot of us won't be here on earth that long
does it really matter what other cats do ?
it should not piss us off if a cat decides he is healthy wealthy and wise
and can wait
cheers imho

[StellaBlue]

be happy you are healthy enough to wait 8 years
a lot of us won't be here on earth that long
does it really matter what other cats do ?
it should not piss us off if a cat decides he is healthy wealthy and wise
and can wait
cheers imho

I have yet to see a CAT ride a bike. Is there some hip circus by you?

[130R]

Dude...worry about yourself...and buy a huffy. If you don't understand the difference between a handbuilt for you Sachs and "just a bike" you probably shouldn't be on a forum for a custom builder.

i have nothing to prove to you. your comments and your wet dreams of a sachs matter as much to me as the dirt i walk on. i'm glad i rocked your boat a little :)

[gemship]

I kind of met Richard Sachs not once but twice at the same venue. A cross race in Gloucester, Ma. I approached his racing bike up close both times and studied it. He noticed me looking at it and offered me to take it for a spin which I did. Not too far just around in a big circle but he didn't seem to mind, I think I could of nearly ridden it out of sight. Very cool dude. He gave me this look and even asked... who are you? It was cosmic, he knew there was something to me and that bike. The second meeting was almost like deja vu.

[ergott]

I gave my reason.. Read the thread again.. You don't like or agree with it is another thing.

I reread it. You said something along the lines about me not interpreting your post as to imply he is sandbagging. I responded that I was referring to someone else. Then you said you have an idea as to the reason for his production pace. I asked what that reason was.

Still, no clarification. I preemptively apologize for being so thick that I can't read between the lines when you post. I need it spelled out for me. :rolleyes:

[texbike]

Still waiting for the reason. I wouldn't want to misinterpret your idea for the reason.

I'm with Stella Blue on this one. It's simple math.

ATMO states that he has a back-log of 400 frames. He produces 4-6 frames a month. He currently has a wait list of 7-8 years. If ATMO decided to NOT support a CX team (and all of the effort that goes with that), and NOT import tubing and other accessories (and all of the effort that goes with that) he would probably be able to increase his production to 8-10 frames a month which would in theory run through the back-log in a quicker manner and reduce the wait time in accordance.

Should ATMO cut out all other activities and concentrate on only building frames to reduce the wait time for his customers? That's up to ATMO. It is his business and his right to prioritize what he wants to do and what is most important to him.

His current approach seems to be working fine for everyone involved, so why question it?

If you don't mind the wait and can GET on the list, then good on you. If not, there are plenty of other options available.

As for StellaBlue being a knowitall pr***, he's from New Jersey, right? Isn't that to be expected??? :)

Texbike

[Fixed]

I have yet to see a CAT ride a bike. Is there some hip circus by you?
no circus i am just one of the cats that won't be here 8 years from now
cheers

if you go to a bike race you see all the cats racing

[StellaBlue]

I'm with Stella Blue on this one. It's simple math.

ATMO states that he has a back-log of 400 frames. He produces 4-6 frames a month. He currently has a wait list of 7-8 years. If ATMO decided to NOT support a CX team (and all of the effort that goes with that), not import tubing and other accessories (and all of the effort that goes with that) he would probably be able to increase his production to 8-10 frames a month which would in theory run through the back-log in a quicker manner and reduce the wait time in accordance.

Should ATMO cut out all other activities and concentrate on only building frames to reduce the wait time for his customers? That's up to ATMO. It is his business and his right to prioritize what he wants to do and what is most important to him.

His current approach seems to be working fine for everyone involved, so why question it?

If you don't mind the wait and can GET on the list, then good on you. If not, there are plenty of other options available.

As for StellaBlue being a knowitall pr***, he's from New Jersey, right? Isn't that to be expected??? :)

Texbike

A: good to see someone can do math
B: New York.. We're (or many of us) are even worse.... : )

[texbike]

B: New York.. We're (or many of us) even worse.... : )

My bad. I'm from Texas. Our public education isn't the best in the country. Geography classes have been sacrificed to support football. :)

Texbike

[Lifelover]

I reread it. You said something along the lines about me not interpreting your post as to imply he is sandbagging. I responded that I was referring to someone else. Then you said you have an idea as to the reason for his production pace. I asked what that reason was.

Still, no clarification. I preemptively apologize for being so thick that I can't read between the lines when you post. I need it spelled out for me. :rolleyes:

I've reread the thread and for the life of me can't figure out what you are trying to argue.

You have an OPINION on how many frames he can make, other people have a different OPINION on how many frames he can make.

Neither side has a single fact to support said opinion.

[Lifelover]

I already did. He chooses to produce X amount of frames a year. That amount is less than many the builders in his class. Hence the wait is longer. I'm I not making my opinion clear?

It takes 4X as long to add the gestalt!

[William]

It takes 4X as long to add the gestalt atmo!

Fixed if for you. :)





William

[thendenjeck]

I've reread the thread and for the life of me can't figure out what you are trying to argue.

You have an OPINION on how many frames he can make, other people have a different OPINION on how many frames he can make.

Neither side has a single fact to support said opinion.

I already did. He chooses to produce X amount of frames a year. That amount is less than many the builders in his class. Hence the wait is longer. I'm I not making my opinion clear?


Exactly, StellaBlue, where are you getting your numbers from? how is it that you know so much about the output of all the top builders? do you care to back up your pointless contrarianism with some names and production numbers of all these other builders?

quit being a petulant bratty child. every thing you've said is unbased conjecture solely for attention and being argumentative.

[William]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/187/411954821_39ff0e046d_o.jpg

[Fixed]

thanks big guy
cheers

[William]

thanks big guy
cheers

:beer:




William

[handsomerob]

If someone agreed to pay you X amount of money to do one specific job over and over again with little to no variance for 4 years straight, would you do it?

Moreover, what if that amount of money wasn't even enough to make you truly wealthy?

It always amazes me when people that I would hope value freedom have such a hard time understanding why others would value it so much.

Everyone of us probably has a varying idea on what an ideal work/life balance is... and it likely will change greatly over time depending on changing priorities... I hope that as I get older, I can do more of what I want and less of what I have to do. I doubt my goal is unique.

[e-RICHIE]

You like others can read into ones statements all you like. You quote a reply where I actually say I don't have a problem with people who are willing to or not wait for a frame.

You say 400 people ( I won't use that term "cats") are in the wait list. I'm sure different builders will deliver that amount of frames in different schedules.
Again. There isn't anything right or wrong with that.

PS: to sum it, like someone alluded to, I'm pretty sure their was a time you produced more than you are willingly able to at this time. Hence the wait is increasing. Don't take it as an insult. It's just a numbers game in my opinion.


i don't wanna get sucked into this drama so i will try to spell it out for you. in my peak years of production i averaged about 90-110 frames a year. then, after that first decade of a thousand or more units, i began to find ways to improve what i do. some of it came naturally, some of it was forced, and none of it came all of the sudden atmo. what i learned about how to make frames better, to closer tolerances, that fit, and were finished to a higher standard than ever before - all of this takes a toll on output. i didn't have to think about it at every epiphany to include what i learned when i felt i had just reached a new level. i just added the tweak, or the process, or the innovation to the repertoire. so, you can infer by all this that when i make frame for a client in 2011 it will take more time, be better, and cost more than had all of this gone down in 1977. will folks know the difference? i dunno. i will, and that's the master i serve. so yeah - i make half as many frames now than i did when i was just back from the ship from southeast london. i daresay that had i not desired to improve my lot at the bench with some regularity, not only would i still be making a 70s/80s era frame, i'd have quit then out of the boredom that comes with routine. none of the framebuilders mentioned in this thread rest on their laurels, or even trade on what they did two years ago. it took me almost half my working life to start improving on the foundation that began in england. no matter how it's sliced, it takes me 3-4 days to make the best frame i know how to make. ps for the record, the tubing, parts, ancillary stuff, and even the 'cross team - none of these are distractions from the work bench atmo. no one waits longer as a result of the lugs i make and sell to other f'builders, or the tubing i import and distribute, or because i race on the weekends.

ps

arrange disorder

:o :D ;)
:o :D ;)
:o :D ;)

[ergott]

I've reread the thread and for the life of me can't figure out what you are trying to argue.

You have an OPINION on how many frames he can make, other people have a different OPINION on how many frames he can make.

Neither side has a single fact to support said opinion.

I don't have an opinion as to his capacity. I take him for his word. Stella stated otherwise and I'd like to know more.

[Smiley]

How long did it take Vincent to do a painting? Mozart to compose a sonet? I guess we should not worry about ATMO's wait list then. The guy has achieved ICON status and he earned it since he like others in his trade are working hard against Madison Avenue marketing to bring you back to steel.

I just wish others worked as hard as ATMO to promote STEEL. Acutally me thinks ATMO is a Steelers fan what sezs U :banana:

[Peter P.]

anyone who ever stands a post is not mediocre atmo.
and that's coming from a radical, counterculture anti-everything cat like me.
so - thanks.

ps

arrange disorder


When I was in the Air Force (1978-82), I actually rode my Richard Sachs to the armory, picked up my M-16, and then rode to the firing range with it slung over my shoulder!

Thanks for honoring our service.

[StellaBlue]

Exactly, StellaBlue, where are you getting your numbers from? how is it that you know so much about the output of all the top builders? do you care to back up your pointless contrarianism with some names and production numbers of all these other builders?

quit being a petulant bratty child. every thing you've said is unbased conjecture solely for attention and being argumentative.

All you have added to this thread a personal insults. You're adorable..

[StellaBlue]

How long did it take Vincent to do a painting? Mozart to compose a sonet? I guess we should not worry about ATMO's wait list then. The guy has achieved ICON status and he earned it since he like others in his trade are working hard against Madison Avenue marketing to bring you back to steel.

I just wish others worked as hard as ATMO to promote STEEL. Acutally me thinks ATMO is a Steelers fan what sezs U :banana:

Firstly, comparing a frame builder to whom you did makes me literally sick to my stomach. Secondly, if you think steel isn't being build, ridden, and promoted by countless people, you're not paying attention.

For the 4th time he's an outstanding frame builder who choices to keep things on a small scale... It ends there.. As do I on this subject...

[thendenjeck]

and once again you avoid backing up your incendiary claims with actual numbers.

I repeat:

where are you getting your numbers from? how is it that you know so much about the output of all the top builders? do you care to back up your pointless contrarianism with some names and production numbers of all these other builders?

numbers or quit with yr arguing.

[StellaBlue]

and once again you avoid backing up your incendiary claims with actual numbers.

I repeat:

where are you getting your numbers from? how is it that you know so much about the output of all the top builders? do you care to back up your pointless contrarianism with some names and production numbers of all these other builders?

numbers or quit with yr arguing.


Lets take Pegoretti for example (since he is my favorite builder). His shop puts out around 600 frames a year. Now granted, he has two extra sets of hands help but he also hand paints a certain % of the frames. I not 100% sure but I don't think RS paints his frames.
Also, only a smaller % of Darios frames are lugged. This may speed up his out put. I've only taken a course on lugged frames so I'm not sure what takes longer. I'm sure if varies from experienced builder to builder. 7 years to deliver 400 frames seems a long time to ME.. And that's ATMO :crap:

PS: I'm not arguing I'm discussing. You're arguing.

[Frankwurst]

For the most part in life, you start at the bottom and claw your way to the top. If you are fortunate enough to reach a certain pinnacle of success through your hard work, then you have earned the right to do as you see fit. :beer:

[thendenjeck]

Lets take Pegoretti for example (since he is my favorite builder). His shop puts out around 600 frames a year. Now granted, he has two extra sets of hands help but he also hand paints a certain % of the frames. I not 100% sure but I don't think RS paints his frames.
Also, only a smaller % of Darios frames are lugged. This may speed up his out put. I've only taken a course on lugged frames so I'm not sure what takes longer. I'm sure if varies from experienced builder to builder. 7 years to deliver 400 frames seems a long time to ME.. And that's ATMO :crap:

PS: I'm not arguing I'm discussing. You're arguing.


two extra sets of hands alone, with no other adjustments, would meet your "he should be building at 2 to 3 times that rate" requirement.

and your version of "discussing" very reliably consists of being inflammatory and touting your opinion as condescending absolutist facts. a technique which has no relation to discussion ATMO ATMO ATMO

[StellaBlue]

two extra sets of hands alone, with no other adjustments, would meet your "he should be building at 2 to 3 times that rate" requirement.

They are producing 6x the frames.. Or is my math way off?

[Fixed]

They are producing 6x the frames.. Or is my math way off?
in the words of miles davis So What
cheers

[rphetteplace]

Dario also doesn't take orders, do webpages etc.......that's done by Gita.

Any of us could increase our output by adding increased work hours.....but after a certain point I think most of us value our family and personal time.

[Frankwurst]

Dario also doesn't take orders, do webpages etc.......that's done by Gita.

Any of us could increase our output by adding increased work hours.....but after a certain point I think most of us value our family and personal time.

I Agree and Miles Davis was right. :beer:

[thendenjeck]

two extra sets of hands alone, with no other adjustments, would meet your "he should be building at 2 to 3 times that rate" requirement.


pull out your reading glasses. previously you said you would be happy with him making 2 to 3 times his current output. now he needs to make six times? does pegoretti run a cross team and build each member of the team two bikes from start to finish by hand?

Why do you have such a hard time allowing a very skilled man to live his life and run his business how he sees fit? of course, it is possible for him to increase his output, it would however require him to live differently than he does, to not do every aspect of the building himself, or a combo of the two: i.e. both the man and the bikes would be different. he's apprently not willing to do that, nor should he be to suit you. additionally, people keep signing up for his frames, so the list is justified. do you think the guy is sitting around rubbing his hands together in evil glee because he figured out how to add another year to his waiting list? I highly doubt it. get over your first-world, self-entitled problems, RS doesn't have a conspiracy going to make you wait 8 years for his bikes. from all I can tell, the guy has a pretty good life. from all I can tell about SB, you're a bitter dude with alot of contentious problems that likes to go around forums stirring s*** up.

[Fixed]

cheers imho

[thendenjeck]

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo123/ElDiabloRobotico/Internet_argument.jpg

[yngpunk]

why hasn't this thread already been locked? Don't we have better things to do, like argue about the Steelers vs. Packers?

[Frankwurst]

why hasn't this thread already been locked? Don't we have better things to do, like argue about the Steelers vs. Packers?

An argument on this subject would be Cheesy. :beer: :hello:

[thendenjeck]

the thread locking ratio in this forum is really quite amazing.

[bironi]

An argument on this subject would be Cheesy. :beer: :hello:

Damn, this should have been the point where the thread was locked. Nice to end with a little humor. Thanks Frankwurst. :beer: I'm with the Cheeseheads too.

[rounder]

I like this thread. I met ATMO last year at NAHBS. I had already bought his coffee table book and video. Richard seemed like an ok guy to me and his display bikes were beautiful. He had previously announced that he was closing the list, and I had really considered getting in line despite the wait time. I figured it would be something to look forward to.

[mike p]

I find this thread hard to believe. Why should it matter to anyone if Richard builds 1 or 40 frames a month. It's his life and his business. He' found a pace he is comfortable with and allows him to make a living and do whatever he likes in his personal life. Our only involvement is deciding if we want to spend the money and wait the allotted time.
I will in all likelihood never own a RS. Would love one but at 53 the timing just isn't right for me. Should Richard start cranking up production to satisfy me? Of course not! He's obviously doing quite well for himself and others. I don't believe I've ever come across an unhappy RS owner!
RS is also one of the hardest working people I've ever met. Whoops, I've never met him but have followed him around the net and he's one of the true ambassadors of our sport. He tirelessly promotes all things cycling! Always building up others and helping new folks to our sport.
I'm envious of his accomplishments....and I think some others are too.

Mike

[jvp]

I think the wait is quite reasonable - 4K @ 7 yrs. is only ~$47.62 in easy montly installments!

[Aaron O]

i have nothing to prove to you. your comments and your wet dreams of a sachs matter as much to me as the dirt i walk on. i'm glad i rocked your boat a little :)

I'm glad I can safely dismiss you as the sort of person interested in rocking boats. Yawn.

Someday you'll grow up and matter.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

I think the only solution to this debate is for Richard to open up his wait list. I am 44 now. Hopefully, I'll still be alive to take delivery of a frame from him.

[MarleyMon]

"If they wanted to get in the queue and be part of the ordeal, so be it, atmo."

ya gotta admit, the man knows his business.

[Fixed]

This is a message from StellaBlue at Serotta Competition Bicycle Forums ( http://forums.thepaceline.net/index.php ). The Serotta Competition Bicycle Forums owners cannot accept any responsibility for the contents of the email.

To email StellaBlue, you can use this online form:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/sendmessage.php?do=mailmember&userid=32366

OR, by email:
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This is the message:

I'd rather be a troll than some tool who has to be an ATMO wanna be with all the bro, cat, cheers crap. Learn to use punctuation and full sentences and i'll take your opinion seriously bro
cheers


from the troll
nice cat huh bro imho
cheers

[rugbysecondrow]

Reasonable people can and do disagree on things. Getting personal with name calling and insults is uncalled for. Not cool folks.

[jlwdm]

the thread locking ratio in this forum is really quite amazing.

The problem is that some people need to be suspended for a while. Then threads would not need to be locked. A bunch of posters on this thread need a break from the forum.

Jeff

[thendenjeck]

he's pming me with that crap too.

[rounder]

Hey Fixed. Don't leave. You are needed here. imho.

[firerescuefin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMS2uMUQNnQ&feature=related


......its the only thing that's there's just too little of.


This cold crappy weather has really got people worked up. I have been thrown up on 5 times today by my 3 year old (as he sat in my lap). Evacuated all non essential personnel out of my house (wife and 7 month old) and have a baby monitor hanging from my stationary trainer while watching the DVR and cranking out a workout......as my boy Ricardo used to say.

Smiles everyone....and welcome to fantasy island!.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX-pVhTZg0U&feature=fvw

SB...is that you ringing the bell :rolleyes:

[Fixed]

i know he would not have said that to my face
a coward that can't ride or be civil
cheers imho

[thendenjeck]

like i said, he's just here to be aggressive and contrary. I've been mostly lurking for about a year and have seen it happen time and again. Personally, if the argumentative catfight nature of this board doesn't let up, i'm out.

[William]

This thread is like .......

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/1235732758_dog_spinning_pn_turntable.gif

[thendenjeck]

hahahahah thanks.



i wish it were that funny and cute

[Kirk007]

I understand what you wrote, I also know it is just a bike. That is why I said separating the hype from the reality is important. If you have a dream bike, one that tickles your fancy, why wait 8 years? It might be having a Sachs and only a Sachs is your dream, but if that bike can be built now, why put it off? Why wait 1/10th of your life, `1/5th of your best adult years waiting for a bike? Sorry, only hype would make somebody do that. The reality is that there are some equals who could do it in the present. Again, life is to short to delay gratification for something like a bike. We likely view bikes and their purpose differently.


Sometimes its not about the bike.

[maxdog]

Sometimes its not about the bike.

+1 Sometimes a few words say it all.

[Kirk007]

This is a message from StellaBlue at Serotta Competition Bicycle Forums ( http://forums.thepaceline.net/index.php ). The Serotta Competition Bicycle Forums owners cannot accept any responsibility for the contents of the email.

To email StellaBlue, you can use this online form:
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OR, by email:
mailto:jacquafred@aol.com

This is the message:

I'd rather be a troll than some tool who has to be an ATMO wanna be with all the bro, cat, cheers crap. Learn to use punctuation and full sentences and i'll take your opinion seriously bro
cheers


from the troll
nice cat huh bro imho
cheers

Fixed,

Glad you're cool enough to let this slide off; its good to have you back here and at the salon. It's great that despite your health issues you are getting back on the bike and contributing here.

StellaBlue: Fixed has been a fixture here for many years; a positive, friendly and funny contributor. You on the other hand have clearly demonstrated that you are an intolerant, judgmental jack*ss. May Dario read this thread and paint you an appropriate message on the respo.

[maxdog]

Fixed,

Glad you're cool enough to let this slide off; its good to have you back here and at the salon. It's great that despite your health issues you are getting back on the bike and contributing here.

StellaBlue: Fixed has been a fixture here for many years; a positive, friendly and funny contributor. You on the other hand have clearly demonstrated that you are an intolerant, judgmental jack*ss. May Dario read this thread and paint you an appropriate message on the respo.

+1 Wow two in a row, nicely done.

[StellaBlue]

Damn. It's already shipped. But if it gets here before the show, I'll bring it along and maybe he will add it for me..

[thendenjeck]

+1 Wow two in a row, nicely done.

+2

[rugbysecondrow]

Sometimes its not about the bike.

I understand that you feel that way, but I don't understand that feeling. Like I wrote, we likely view bikes and their purpose differently. No harm no foul.

[gemship]

like i said, he's just here to be aggressive and contrary. I've been mostly lurking for about a year and have seen it happen time and again. Personally, if the argumentative catfight nature of this board doesn't let up, i'm out.


Yeah I've been mostly lurking a lot lately too, except for this thread as this is my second contributing post. I want to give a tip and make a following observation in regard to said tip to anyone out there. GET A JOB, NOT A STAY AT HOME JOB BUT A REAL JOB! It will change everything. YOU PROBABLY WON'T HAVE TIME TO POST. THIS FORUM WILL BECOME ALIEN TO YOU! It has for me which leads me to wonder. I mean I have to assume that most of the members, particularly within this thread must have a stay at home job, too much time on their hands or need a audience, I won't name any names but if you have at least three or four posts on this thread and your in your thirties, you got your message across, time to move on, get creative, maybe step away from the computer. Just sayin....

[rugbysecondrow]

Yeah I've been mostly lurking a lot lately too, except for this thread as this is my second contributing post. I want to give a tip and make a following observation in regard to said tip to anyone out there. GET A JOB, NOT A STAY AT HOME JOB BUT A REAL JOB! It will change everything. YOU PROBABLY WON'T HAVE TIME TO POST. THIS FORUM WILL BECOME ALIEN TO YOU! It has for me which leads me to wonder. I mean I have to assume that most of the members, particularly within this thread must have a stay at home job, too much time on their hands or need a audience, I won't name any names but if you have at least three or four posts on this thread and your in your thirties, you got your message across, time to move on, get creative, maybe step away from the computer. Just sayin....

Iphone my man.

[gemship]

Iphone my man.


oh my god, too funny. I work with people that have those. This machine shop I work at is huge, probably the size of a football field inside with like a forty foot high ceiling. So long as the spindle is turning in any given machine it's assumed one is cutting metal but still.... those little devices are evil, distracting.

There's no creativity going on there, lots of info to tap into, albeit redundant, nothing that can't wait till you get home. That's the only time I get online, when I can sit down with my computer. Really as it should be. About now is the time I have to sign off for a while from my computer anyway. It's a bit past 8am, nice day weather wise. I have work to do outside, need to make access to my woodpile because I don't have time and I am too tired to work in the dark at night during the afterwork hours Mon. thru Fri.

[Bob Ross]

Why did I choose to wait (not that you asked)?

It's not like I sit at home counting days. I put the deposit in. I continue riding other bikes and forget all about it most of the time. Then, one day I will get an email asking for my measurements and the like. When that time comes, great. Until then, I really don't consider it waiting as I have too many other things to do in life to care.


^^^This.

You don't "wait" 7-8 years. You live your life for 7-8 years, doing the stuff that you would be doing regardless of whether or not you're in the queue.

[SamIAm]

This is a message from StellaBlue at Serotta Competition Bicycle Forums ( http://forums.thepaceline.net/index.php ). The Serotta Competition Bicycle Forums owners cannot accept any responsibility for the contents of the email.

To email StellaBlue, you can use this online form:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/sendmessage.php?do=mailmember&userid=32366

OR, by email:
mailto:jacquafred@aol.com

This is the message:

I'd rather be a troll than some tool who has to be an ATMO wanna be with all the bro, cat, cheers crap. Learn to use punctuation and full sentences and i'll take your opinion seriously bro
cheers


from the troll
nice cat huh bro imho
cheers

Posting PM's seems like bad form, to me at least.

[Aaron O]

Posting PM's seems like bad form, to me at least.

That PM seemed like bad form to me.

Fixed is easily one of the friendliest and more interesting people I've seen here...cat or no cat.

[SamIAm]

I have a Sachs and my wife and I are on the list for another, probably 350 down in that 400 frame queue.

I will agree with the viewpoint that you are not waiting, you are simply plunking a very reasonable deposit down and moving on with your life. If you assume that you will still be riding 7 years from now, then really what's the big deal, assuming of course that you even want a Sachs. Its a smallish investment, the deposit that is, and if you decide to walk away because life changes, it's not gonna hurt that much.

But if you are still riding and still loving the sport, you are gonna be real happy you did it.

And no you are not going to get a better frame from Richard than from any of the other top builders out there. There may be things going on behind the scenes at his shop that have been refined to a level that surpasses the others, I don't really know, but I know that you will never be able to tell when riding the bike. It's great, but there is a lot of great out there right now.

But I guess I like the idea that he is clearly driven to improve his craft, for his own sanity, if nothing else. To me, that's worth paying and waiting for.

[SamIAm]

That PM seemed like bad form to me.

Fixed is easily one of the friendliest and more interesting people I've seen here...cat or no cat.

You don't know as much as you think you know. Do a search or two.

[Dave B]

Yeah I think the wait has taken on a life of its own that people get all bent over about.

I love when folks argue that waiting is stupid and we are fools to wait that long. Why, because it doesn't fit in your instant gratification parameters? Cause you are so important that you need yours now and you better darn well get it? It is just a bike, it isn't that important!


Ok, Richard doesn't force you to get on his list, he doesn't promise you one thing and give you another. Anyone who is on his list or jumped on before closing it knows what he or she is asking. I love the fact that in however many years it is for mine to come up get to build a relationship with him, learn more about riding, experience more on bikes so that I can feel differences in fit, finish, quality, etc.

I love to see people get their panties in a bunch when they just know how stupid we are for waiting. Richard has been compared to all sorts of other builders and their way of doing business. He or more often his work has been compared to the work of others and, "They can get it done faster!"

I bet he would be the first to politely help you make those decisions.

I still have no idea why people judge one man's business methods or ideals? Richard has earned any and all of his success as he has put in decades of work. His wait list is longer then other builder's careers who still try to compare their work to his.

For those of you who don't "get it" with regards to why he does things the way he does, let it go. Your internet bitching isn't going to do anything other then embarrass yourself.

BTW, if something unfortunate should happen to Richard and he cannot make my frame, then I want my deposit to go to Richard's wife aka "The lovely Deb," so she can go on a long vacation.

[maxdog]

Yeah I think the wait has taken on a life of its own that people get all bent over about.

I love when folks argue that waiting is stupid and we are fools to wait that long. Why, because it doesn't fit in your instant gratification parameters? Cause you are so important that you need yours now and you better darn well get it? It is just a bike, it isn't that important!


Ok, Richard doesn't force you to get on his list, he doesn't promise you one thing and give you another. Anyone who is on his list or jumped on before closing it knows what he or she is asking. I love the fact that in however many years it is for mine to come up get to build a relationship with him, learn more about riding, experience more on bikes so that I can feel differences in fit, finish, quality, etc.

I love to see people get their panties in a bunch when they just know how stupid we are for waiting. Richard has been compared to all sorts of other builders and their way of doing business. He or more often his work has been compared to the work of others and, "They can get it done faster!"

I bet he would be the first to politely help you make those decisions.

I still have no idea why people judge one man's business methods or ideals? Richard has earned any and all of his success as he has put in decades of work. His wait list is longer then other builder's careers who still try to compare their work to his.

For those of you who don't "get it" with regards to why he does things the way he does, let it go. Your internet bitching isn't going to do anything other then embarrass yourself.

BTW, if something unfortunate should happen to Richard and he cannot make my frame, then I want my deposit to go to Richard's wife aka "The lovely Deb," so she can go on a long vacation.

+1 Must be why your the President.

[Fixed]

You don't know as much as you think you know. Do a search or two.
elaborate please let me know
i have 12000 post sorry if i stepped on anyone" s toes
if you don't know i am a very sick cat now
if that makes you feel better
this is the way i can stay connected to cycling now
sorry if i offend anyone
cheers

[Aaron O]

Yeah I think the wait has taken on a life of its own that people get all bent over about.

I love when folks argue that waiting is stupid and we are fools to wait that long. Why, because it doesn't fit in your instant gratification parameters? Cause you are so important that you need yours now and you better darn well get it? It is just a bike, it isn't that important!


Ok, Richard doesn't force you to get on his list, he doesn't promise you one thing and give you another. Anyone who is on his list or jumped on before closing it knows what he or she is asking. I love the fact that in however many years it is for mine to come up get to build a relationship with him, learn more about riding, experience more on bikes so that I can feel differences in fit, finish, quality, etc.

I love to see people get their panties in a bunch when they just know how stupid we are for waiting. Richard has been compared to all sorts of other builders and their way of doing business. He or more often his work has been compared to the work of others and, "They can get it done faster!"

I bet he would be the first to politely help you make those decisions.

I still have no idea why people judge one man's business methods or ideals? Richard has earned any and all of his success as he has put in decades of work. His wait list is longer then other builder's careers who still try to compare their work to his.

For those of you who don't "get it" with regards to why he does things the way he does, let it go. Your internet bitching isn't going to do anything other then embarrass yourself.

BTW, if something unfortunate should happen to Richard and he cannot make my frame, then I want my deposit to go to Richard's wife aka "The lovely Deb," so she can go on a long vacation.

+2

You don't know as much as you think you know. Do a search or two.

I'll go with my direct experiences and really have no interest in conducting internet investigations. If time proves me wrong, it won't be the first time.

[rePhil]

So true. I just don't get it.


You don't know as much as you think you know. Do a search or two.

[54ny77]

wow is this still going on?

http://lolpics.se/pics/482.jpg

[rugbysecondrow]

It sounds like you are taking this personally when it is unnecessary to do so. If you are content to wait 8 years for a bike, that is obviously your decision. Good for you and I hope you are able to enjoy it when it comes. Surely you can at least understand why somebody would think differently about an 8 year wait for a bike, just like I understand that I think differently about it than you. This is not complicated nor contentious, at least it shouldn't be.

Yeah I think the wait has taken on a life of its own that people get all bent over about.

I love when folks argue that waiting is stupid and we are fools to wait that long. Why, because it doesn't fit in your instant gratification parameters? Cause you are so important that you need yours now and you better darn well get it? It is just a bike, it isn't that important!


Ok, Richard doesn't force you to get on his list, he doesn't promise you one thing and give you another. Anyone who is on his list or jumped on before closing it knows what he or she is asking. I love the fact that in however many years it is for mine to come up get to build a relationship with him, learn more about riding, experience more on bikes so that I can feel differences in fit, finish, quality, etc.

I love to see people get their panties in a bunch when they just know how stupid we are for waiting. Richard has been compared to all sorts of other builders and their way of doing business. He or more often his work has been compared to the work of others and, "They can get it done faster!"

I bet he would be the first to politely help you make those decisions.

I still have no idea why people judge one man's business methods or ideals? Richard has earned any and all of his success as he has put in decades of work. His wait list is longer then other builder's careers who still try to compare their work to his.

For those of you who don't "get it" with regards to why he does things the way he does, let it go. Your internet bitching isn't going to do anything other then embarrass yourself.

BTW, if something unfortunate should happen to Richard and he cannot make my frame, then I want my deposit to go to Richard's wife aka "The lovely Deb," so she can go on a long vacation.

[SoCalSteve]

Ive been out of touch with the forum for a couple days ( i was in the hospital for a pretty big heart procedure- which was successful- thank G@d)

Im gonna close this thread now as its seem to be going nowhere pretty quickly and the personal insults are a real no- no.

All I can really add to this thread is that I just wish Richard Sachs would contribute on our Forum more often. He has a wealth of cycling knowledge, is a pretty nice guy and for whatever reason drove him away ( many years back) those people- issues- reasons are no longer a part of this great cycling community and Forum.

Richard come back and be a vital part of this great place...