Wheel Question...

[buldogge]

I'm hoping to get some opinions on a wheel I picked up today and possible changes to it.

I grabbed a 32H Velocity Aerohead laced to a Campy Daytona front hub. It has straight gauge DT Swiss spokes and is radially laced.

Trying to get some opinions/knowledge on whether I should leave well enough alone...or...whether I should kill two birds with one stone and re-lace with DT Revs 3x.

Current configuration weighs ~750g.

I got it super cheap, so buying 32 spokes wouldn't bum me out that much...

TIA
-Mark in St. Louis

[thegunner]

I'm hoping to get some opinions on a wheel I picked up today and possible changes to it.

I grabbed a 32H Velocity Aerohead laced to a Campy Daytona front hub. It has straight gauge DT Swiss spokes and is radially laced.

Trying to get some opinions/knowledge on whether I should leave well enough alone...or...whether I should kill two birds with one stone and re-lace with DT Revs 3x.

Current configuration weighs ~750g.

I got it super cheap, so buying 32 spokes wouldn't bum me out that much...

TIA
-Mark in St. Louis

i have to ask... is there anything wrong with it in its current configuration? radial lacing would give a stiffer wheel laterally, and while the dt revs would surely be lighter, there's no point in fixing what ain't broke.

[A1CKot]

I thought Campy hubs shouldn't be radially spoked?

But I have a similar set up except mine is straight pull 3 cross. These are going to be my cross wheels so I think I'm going to go ahead and update the spokes and have them tied/soldered. It all comes down to what you want the wheel for. The stronger the better in my case.

[buldogge]

That's my question, really...

Is the radial lacing a problem?

The weight difference/strength will be minimal on the spoke change...

-Mark

i have to ask... is there anything wrong with it in its current configuration? radial lacing would give a stiffer wheel laterally, and while the dt revs would surely be lighter, there's no point in fixing what ain't broke.

[buldogge]

I assume you mean shouldn't and that's what I'm wondering about...

???

-Mark

I thought Campy hubs should be radially spoked?

But I have a similar set up except mine is straight pull 3 cross. These are going to be my cross wheels so I think I'm going to go ahead and update the spokes and have them tied/soldered. It all comes down to what you want the wheel for. The stronger the better in my case.

[Louis]

I assume you mean shouldn't and that's what I'm wondering about...

Hey Mark,

I'm pretty sure that's what he meant to say.


All ready for the freezing rain? I just hope I don't loose power...

[A1CKot]

Hey Mark,

I'm pretty sure that's what he meant to say.


All ready for the freezing rain? I just hope I don't loose power...

Yes you got me.


Freezing rain sounds like fun. I can't wait till it warm enough to just rain. I have never missed living in Illinois more than I do now. Although last week was 32ish and I was able to get outside with a little bit of drama.

Spring needs to get here quick fast... so I can stop spending money on bike stuff and ride.

Good luck with the storm, my dad called me just to tell me about it, and it will be warm soon.

[oliver1850]

.

[oliver1850]

.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm hoping to get some opinions on a wheel I picked up today and possible changes to it.

I grabbed a 32H Velocity Aerohead laced to a Campy Daytona front hub. It has straight gauge DT Swiss spokes and is radially laced.

Trying to get some opinions/knowledge on whether I should leave well enough alone...or...whether I should kill two birds with one stone and re-lace with DT Revs 3x.

Current configuration weighs ~750g.

I got it super cheap, so buying 32 spokes wouldn't bum me out that much...

TIA
-Mark in St. Louis

I would relace it. Altho rare, radial on Campagnolo hubs coupled with straight gauge spokes 'may' lead to a flange failure.

Not necessarily with Revs or because of weight but I would use double butted spokes of some type, laved 3 cross.

[buldogge]

Hey Louis... You should be good to go out west, no? All your lines are underground aren't they?? I had to lift a finger today and do some laundry at the wife's request, trying to get it all done in case of power loss.

We have (2) wood burning fireplaces...but...with (3) floors of 100yo brick house, it's gonna be cold if we lose power, regardless!

Fingers crossed...

Hey Mark,

I'm pretty sure that's what he meant to say.


All ready for the freezing rain? I just hope I don't loose power...

[buldogge]

Hey Mark... I'm gonna order up (2) A23s for the 32H Chorus hubs (the rear one I got from Toshiro and the one front you're sending along) and (1) rear Aerohead OC for another 32H rear when I find it.

If you've got a 32H rear Daytona or Centaur you want to trade for something please let me know!

-Mark

I sense that there's another trade in the works.....

I do seem to remember reading that radial lacing wasn't recommended on some Campy hubs, but it might have been the 8/early 9 era ones.

Buy another Aerohead to go with that one and put them on the hubset that you already have, uh, will have when I get you the front. I've got a Daytona rear wheel sitting in Colorado, but have forgotten what rim is on it.

[buldogge]

I used a few different spoke calculators, and it looks like I can use the same length Revs for the front and the NDS rear with all the hubs I have now...so...I will have them on hand if I decide to re-lace.

TA
-Mark

I would relace it. Altho rare, radial on Campagnolo hubs coupled with straight gauge spokes 'may' lead to a flange failure.

Not necessarily with Revs or because of weight but I would use double butted spokes of some type, laved 3 cross.

[Louis]

Hey Louis... You should be good to go out west, no? All your lines are underground aren't they?? I had to lift a finger today and do some laundry at the wife's request, trying to get it all done in case of power loss.

We have (2) wood burning fireplaces...but...with (3) floors of 100yo brick house, it's gonna be cold if we lose power, regardless!

Fingers crossed...

I'm all caught up on laundry, so at least I don't have to deal with that... But I did decide to stay home because I probably would not have been able to make it up the big hill into my subdivision. My vacation days are dwindling and I need to save them for week-day rides early this spring (if spring ever gets here).

The power lines along Wild Horse Creek Rd are on poles, as is the first half mile or so into my subdivision. From there on in they are underground, which will help with the local issues.

As back-up for the all-electric heating I have a propane heating stove in my living room, but I'm down to 30% in the tank (I hope that's 30% of the volume, not 30% of the height) so something else to worry about - running out of that... Plus, without power there's really no good way to circulate the heat around the house to the places that really need it - the pipes in the basement.

Good Luck

[ergott]

I too, vote relace. Radial, straight-gauge isn't a great idea with any hub with 32 spokes (except Phil Wood).

[buldogge]

Another related question...

Do you guys tend to use one length nipple when building?

What is the reason for 12, 14, and 16mm lengths if correct spoke length is chosen??

Why not just use 14mm all the time (split the middle as it were)?

TIA
-Mark

[oliver1850]

.

[buldogge]

Mark...I'll probably order a box/100 something....maybe (2) boxes, one of each length 12/14 or 12/16...???

Brass/silver DT.

Stay warm...

-Mark

I'd say in general shorter looks better. Don't know why you couldn't use long ones all the time if you didn't mind the look. I need some long ones for some rims I've got if you are stocking up. I think 14s will work.

Almost forgot the weather forcast: up to 18" with 45mph winds. Blizzard warnings already issued for tomorrow.

[Louis]

I suspect that part of the reason for various nipple lengths is to give greater flexibility when building. If you have a bunch of spokes of a given length different nipples allow you to use the same spokes in different (but very similar) applications. Front vs rear, DS vs. NDS, etc.

[buldogge]

I guess if you build a lot of wheels and end up with a lot of odd "stock" it would allow some flexibility. 16mm nipples should allow ~2mm of spoke correction, no?

-Mark

I suspect that part of the reason for various nipple lengths is to give greater flexibility when building. If you have a bunch of spokes of a given length different nipples allow you to use the same spokes in different (but very similar) applications. Front vs rear, DS vs. NDS, etc.

[cp43]

I have always thought that you shouldn't re-lace a hub using a different pattern. The reason was that the spokes create indentations in the hub flange based on how they were originally laced. Spokes in a different pattern wouldn't sit in the indentations. In theory, this leads to stress risers, or other bad things.

I have seen the indentations on hubs that I have re-laced. So, it seems plausible, but I've also never heard of failures related to this.

So, question to those who know what they're talking about, any truth to this?

Thanks,

Chris

[Louis]

I guess the key is whether or not you are willing to use a nipple-spoke combination that does not have the spoke going to the very "top" of the nipple. As was pointed out elsewhere, some folks say that you are more likely to have nipple failure if the spoke only engages a few threads at the "bottom" of the nipple.

Personally I don't know if this is true or not, since most of the load is taken by the first few threads and so the spoke is going to be in tension and has to take the load from the bottom to the shoulder, where it bears up against the rim/eyelet, whether the spoke is super short or super long. Perhaps having the spoke flush with the top of the nipple helps with the bending, but I'm not sure how big the loads are for that. Can't be that big compared to the tension load, but I've never seen any actual numbers.

If you want the "ideal" situation which is to have the spoke flush with the top of the nipple, then the length of the nipple doesn't matter.

[Ralph]

I'm kinda astonded that the consideration of weigh of one kind of build VS another even gets mentioned....or is considered. Too much Internet wheel building going on. BTW.....Daytona is not a bad hub. It's not as light as current Record, but is as light as older Record, (for the weight weenies) and will last forever with maintenance.

[weiwentg]

I too, vote relace. Radial, straight-gauge isn't a great idea with any hub with 32 spokes (except Phil Wood).

This implies that radial with butted spokes is OK on many hubs. I get the radial is not good with 32 spoke thing, because there's little material between the holes. But why is radial OK with butted but not with straight gauge?

[oldpotatoe]

I used a few different spoke calculators, and it looks like I can use the same length Revs for the front and the NDS rear with all the hubs I have now...so...I will have them on hand if I decide to re-lace.

TA
-Mark

Yep, pretty close. I calculate 1mm longer for the front than the NDS since the flange is smaller on the front but probably work. Just make sure the rear wheel lengths are spot on, not too short.

[dvancleve]

The different nipple heights are for different rim heights, the taller ones don't necessarily have more threads. I compared some TALL Sapim nipples to some 12mm a few weeks ago, and as far as I could tell they were within a thread or so of each other. Taller nipples keep the wrench flats out where you can get them on taller rims. They can also be used for cosmetic reasons if you end up with a couple spoke threads showing. Suboptimal, but spokes aren't as cheap as they used to be so I have used taller nipples to cover the threads on a front wheel or non-drive side rear...

Doug


I'd say in general shorter looks better. Don't know why you couldn't use long ones all the time if you didn't mind the look. I need some long ones for some rims I've got if you are stocking up. I think 14s will work.

Almost forgot the weather forcast: up to 18" with 45mph winds. Blizzard warnings already issued for tomorrow.

[oldpotatoe]

Another related question...

Do you guys tend to use one length nipple when building?

What is the reason for 12, 14, and 16mm lengths if correct spoke length is chosen??

Why not just use 14mm all the time (split the middle as it were)?

TIA
-Mark

Mostly when the rim design is such that not enough of the nipple sticks thru to get a spoke wrench on..CXP-30s were like that(needed 16mm nipps) and some use 14mm on CXP-33 but I have always used 12mm. Why use 12mm, cuz that's what comes with the DT spoke, same price with or w/o the nipple. 14mm cost more as do 16mm.

I have used 16mm nipples when I just don't have a long enough spoke..always straight pull since I don't stock a lot of those.

[dvancleve]

So I have a set of Record hubs, the pretty ones, in FiR Zentih rims laced with 14/15g DT spokes. They are 32 spoke front and rear, radial front and 3x/radial rear. I got them crazy cheap, hope they weren't stolen or something. I wouldn't have laced them this way, but I hate to toss all but 16 of the spokes to relace. Should I?

Thanks, Doug

P.S. The hub flanges are probably indented at least a bit from the radial lacing.

I too, vote relace. Radial, straight-gauge isn't a great idea with any hub with 32 spokes (except Phil Wood).

[ergott]

This implies that radial with butted spokes is OK on many hubs. I get the radial is not good with 32 spoke thing, because there's little material between the holes. But why is radial OK with butted but not with straight gauge?

Clarification. There are a couple of radial specific hubs out there up to 32. I've seen pics of broken Tune hubs in 32 and they specifically recommend radial only up to 28. Most hubs cannot handle the stresses. Besides, what are you gaining? Aerodynamics aren't your primary concern if you have 32 spokes in your front wheel. A 32 spoke front wheel with a 2X or 3X pattern is already much stronger than the rear wheel that has to deal with offset flanges for the cassette. There are very few instances where a 32 spoke front wheel isn't strong enough and they make 36 spoke wheels for that occasion. Forget about 32 radial. It serves no purpose other than to make a front wheel weaker.

I wouldn't radial lace any 32 spoke wheel. Most of the ones I see are laced heads out to reduce stress on the flanges. Guess what? That pattern is less laterally stiff than a 2X or 3X pattern. Heads in is laterally stiffer, but puts greater strain on the flanges. My recommendation for relacing is more about the spoke count than the spokes used. The straight gauge doesn't help the matter.

The only time I lace radial with the heads out these days is for Alchemy hubs. The reason is that those hub flanges are so far out that even laced heads out, they net bracing angle is the same or better than other front hubs laced heads in. You get less stress on the hub and a great bracing angle. Also, there can be interference between the spokes and some forks when an Alchemy hub is laced heads in. I haven't heard this to be the case with a crossed pattern.

[buldogge]

FWIW...They are laced heads out as well.

It will make good wheel building practice after I order some spokes/nipples.

Thanx...

-Mark

Clarification. There are a couple of radial specific hubs out there up to 32. I've seen pics of broken Tune hubs in 32 and they specifically recommend radial only up to 28. Most hubs cannot handle the stresses. Besides, what are you gaining? Aerodynamics aren't your primary concern if you have 32 spokes in your front wheel. A 32 spoke front wheel with a 2X or 3X pattern is already much stronger than the rear wheel that has to deal with offset flanges for the cassette. There are very few instances where a 32 spoke front wheel isn't strong enough and they make 36 spoke wheels for that occasion. Forget about 32 radial. It serves no purpose other than to make a front wheel weaker.

I wouldn't radial lace any 32 spoke wheel. Most of the ones I see are laced heads out to reduce stress on the flanges. Guess what? That pattern is less laterally stiff than a 2X or 3X pattern. Heads in is laterally stiffer, but puts greater strain on the flanges. My recommendation for relacing is more about the spoke count than the spokes used. The straight gauge doesn't help the matter.

The only time I lace radial with the heads out these days is for Alchemy hubs. The reason is that those hub flanges are so far out that even laced heads out, they net bracing angle is the same or better than other front hubs laced heads in. You get less stress on the hub and a great bracing angle. Also, there can be interference between the spokes and some forks when an Alchemy hub is laced heads in. I haven't heard this to be the case with a crossed pattern.

[ergott]

Heads out won't have any signifigant indentations so the hub should be fine.

[dvancleve]

Hey Eric,

I think you were replying to my post on this. Thanks :) So I should relace my radial front/half radial rear 32/32 Record hubbed wheels. Okay. Since a 32 spoke front wheel is clearly a lot stronger than a 32 spoke 8/9/10/11 spoke rear wheel, I am thinking of just doing 2x up front (saves a few grams, should be plenty strong). It seems like 1x might not work very well up front, all the spokes would have to be either heads in or heads out, and it seems like heads in might get weird... I will keep the 3x rear drive side as is, just detension. Any reason I shouldn't do 1x on the non-drive side, maybe still with all heads out? I just prefer not doing a 32/32 3x/3x wheelset (I'd do 24/28, 28/32 or 32/36 if starting from scratch), front ends up WAY stronger than the rear and there won't be that much tension on the left rear spokes anyway so why not save a few grams... Am I missing anything?

Regards, Doug

Heads out won't have any significant indentations so the hub should be fine.

[ergott]

32 3X all around is the simple answer. 2X will increase the bracing angle ever so slightly, and the spokes are shorter. The realistic differences are too small to bother caring much. I do both patterns and recently have been favoring 32 2X front and 32 2X/3X rear.

[oldpotatoe]

32 3X all around is the simple answer. 2X will increase the bracing angle ever so slightly, and the spokes are shorter. The realistic differences are too small to bother caring much. I do both patterns and recently have been favoring 32 2X front and 32 2X/3X rear.

What he said!(At least the first 8 words/numbers).

[cnighbor1]

I wouldn't change unless
1. Your racing and getting close to winning but need that last ounce of weigth loss
2. If when changing light gage spokes your not over 175 pounds
3. You like to take apart stuff just for the heck of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Great for a general riding wheel Useful for all types of riding
Charles

[dvancleve]

Charles - not for weight at all. The wheels will actually be getting heavier as the front is radial 14/15g and the rear half radial (also 14/15g). I would be doing it because 32 hole Record hubs really shouldn't be radially laced and I am not light.

ergott, oldpotatoe - So I get that the 2x front, 2x/3x rear is a good way to go and I've done that combo a few times. Is 1x non-drive in back just low value or is there something bad about it, like the flange might still break? If radial is strong enough, then shouldn't 1x be as well?

Thanks again, Doug

I wouldn't change unless
1. Your racing and getting close to winning but need that last ounce of weigth loss
2. If when changing light gage spokes your not over 175 pounds
3. You like to take apart stuff just for the heck of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Great for a general riding wheel Useful for all types of riding
Charles

[ergott]

1X would have to be heads in and can stress the hub flange.

I've done it, but it depends on the hub in question.

[dvancleve]

Thanks Eric :) This is a Campy Record, silver fat barrel vintage...

Doug

1X would have to be heads in and can stress the hub flange.

I've done it, but it depends on the hub in question.

[ergott]

Thanks Eric :) This is a Campy Record, silver fat barrel vintage...

Doug

They aren't the strongest flanges. They are absolutely fine for regular patterns. I'd stick with that.

[oldpotatoe]

Charles - not for weight at all. The wheels will actually be getting heavier as the front is radial 14/15g and the rear half radial (also 14/15g). I would be doing it because 32 hole Record hubs really shouldn't be radially laced and I am not light.

ergott, oldpotatoe - So I get that the 2x front, 2x/3x rear is a good way to go and I've done that combo a few times. Is 1x non-drive in back just low value or is there something bad about it, like the flange might still break? If radial is strong enough, then shouldn't 1x be as well?

Thanks again, Doug

I don't think 32 2 cross anywhere is a 'good' idea. It really does nothing, it doesn't hurt I guess, but it doesn't answer any question, solve any problem.

1x makes no sense on a 32h wheel. I wouldn't worry about radial non drive side and breaking a flange. The tension is really low BUT I don't do mixed lacings on the wheels I sell. 24-2cross, 28-2 cross, 28 3 cross on some small flange rears, 32 3 cross, 36 3 cross, 40 3 cross on large flange, 4 cross on small flange.

[dvancleve]

Well alrighty then, 2x up front and 2x/3x in back it is!

Thanks again,
Doug

They aren't the strongest flanges. They are absolutely fine for regular patterns. I'd stick with that.

[dvancleve]

Well alrighty then, 2x up front and 2x/3x in back it is!

Thanks again,
Doug

Well it took me forever, but I finally did rebuild these wheels. I went with Sapim Lasers laced 2x with alloy nipples in the front and laced 1x heads out with alloy nipples on the non-drive side back. I reused the 2.0/1.8 double butted spokes already laced 3x on the rear drive side with new brass nipples. I guess it is a bit silly, but it saves a few grams on wheels that should still be plenty strong…

Doug

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i229/dvancleve/71b4372f51a6657fd684b0a250bb2e60.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i229/dvancleve/7035adfbd96afbf8e3def44870c5b935.jpg

[thwart]

Cool. I like the look...

But I think you meant 1x on the non-drive side.

[thirdgenbird]

Can you get pictures of the whole wheel so we can get the full effect?

[dvancleve]

Oops, fixed ;)

Cool. I like the look...

But I think you meant 1x on the non-drive side.

[dvancleve]

Can you get pictures of the whole wheel so we can get the full effect?

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i229/dvancleve/c3654cc8eb1796ccb33400418b17711f.jpg