Ceramic Bearing Bottom Brackets - Really noticeable?

[rinconryder]

Looking to build a bike up with SRAM Red. Deciding whether to go with the ceramic bearings or the regular bottom bracket. Cost savings is about 100 which to me is pretty significant, but I am willing to drop the coin if it is noticeably better. Thanks for your thoughts.

[AngryScientist]

i'll tell you this, one set of my wheels has ceramic bearings, and i sure cant tell a difference. i'd just stick with standard bearings in the crank myself.

[leooooo]

Personally, I don't notice it at all.
If the 100 bucks matter, save it.

[oldpotatoe]

Looking to build a bike up with SRAM Red. Deciding whether to go with the ceramic bearings or the regular bottom bracket. Cost savings is about 100 which to me is pretty significant, but I am willing to drop the coin if it is noticeably better. Thanks for your thoughts.

Save your $. The sram ceramic BB is not only of no significant improvement(true for any ceramic anywhere), it is particularly prone to goin' south when it gets wet. Non hardened steel is the problem. 'Upgrade' to the all steel one.

[Spicoli]

I have two of them :rolleyes: . Save the money unless you "need" the best of the best peace of mind? I'm not too sure there is any performance difference between the exspensive ceramic Sram option or getting an Enduro kit for the stock BB (cheaper way to go ceramic w/Sram). I have the Enduro ceramics in the Dura Ace cups on my TT bike and they are very smooth. Also if I had to guess something like a non ceramic Phil Wood or Chris King would be even better if qaulity is the goal? (I think they make a Sram option?)

The BB on my training bike is not all that smooth (I think it's a bit notchy) but still spins forever like most ceramic bearing items, just notchy. My race rig has the newer version ceramic Sram and that is buttery. Although it is a race only bike so it does not take a real world beating. Whether that means it makes a difference or not is another story all together?

I see standard Srams for $20bucks all the time but have never seen the ceramic less than $160ish? That's alotta coin for something that is more than likely 75% hype!

[merckx]

I'll tell what makes a difference. That is, going from my UT to sq. taper. No kidding.

[jeo99]

Actually I have seen and heard from my cycling friends here locally that there many problems with the bearings breaking and exploding. They are hard and sometimes brittle. If they are not installed properly and expertly, I think issues can happen. I have and would suggest staying away.

:beer:

[oldpotatoe]

I'll tell what makes a difference. That is, going from my UT to sq. taper. No kidding.

Gee Eddy, on my Waterford, with a cup and ball C-Record BB, it spins like it's running in water. Much smoother than anything with seals.

Remember outboard bearings, now BB30, pressfit BB30, answered no question, solved no problem with regards to the cup and ball BBs of the 80s.

Now before you start the 'stiffer/lighter' mantra, stiffness you feel or don't feel is mostly frame. Nobody twists a steel BB spindle so much you can 'feel' it. Nobody flexes a crankarm enough to really 'feel' a difference.

Big gorilla machines test this and even with huge force applied, the differences are teeny.

Discussion, thread drift, it's still january but spring is right around the corner.

60 today in the republic, beuuuutiful.

[1centaur]

Save your money. Phil Wood aftermarket bearings are the only thing I've found that can be noticed after the placebo effect has subsided.

[djg21]

Looking to build a bike up with SRAM Red. Deciding whether to go with the ceramic bearings or the regular bottom bracket. Cost savings is about 100 which to me is pretty significant, but I am willing to drop the coin if it is noticeably better. Thanks for your thoughts.


Chris King BB!!!!

[fourflys]

Gee Eddy, on my Waterford, with a cup and ball C-Record BB, it spins like it's running in water. Much smoother than anything with seals.

Remember outboard bearings, now BB30, pressfit BB30, answered no question, solved no problem with regards to the cup and ball BBs of the 80s.

Now before you start the 'stiffer/lighter' mantra, stiffness you feel or don't feel is mostly frame. Nobody twists a steel BB spindle so much you can 'feel' it. Nobody flexes a crankarm enough to really 'feel' a difference.

Big gorilla machines test this and even with huge force applied, the differences are teeny.

Discussion, thread drift, it's still january but spring is right around the corner.

60 today in the republic, beuuuutiful.

dam, I wished I lived within a reasonable distance to your shop... well, except for all the snow in winter.... ;)

[rinconryder]

Wow, this makes my decision much easier. Guess I am going with the standard BB!

[merckx]

Gee Eddy, on my Waterford, with a cup and ball C-Record BB, it spins like it's running in water. Much smoother than anything with seals.

Remember outboard bearings, now BB30, pressfit BB30, answered no question, solved no problem with regards to the cup and ball BBs of the 80s.

Now before you start the 'stiffer/lighter' mantra, stiffness you feel or don't feel is mostly frame. Nobody twists a steel BB spindle so much you can 'feel' it. Nobody flexes a crankarm enough to really 'feel' a difference.

Big gorilla machines test this and even with huge force applied, the differences are teeny.

Discussion, thread drift, it's still january but spring is right around the corner.

60 today in the republic, beuuuutiful.

Amen, brudda.

[Black Dog]

If you care about facts and evidence then save your money and stay with steel. They are not faster and they do not last longer on a bike. Ease of spin is a function of the amount of grease and the drag of the seals. Ceramic bearings are designed for high heat and high speed; both of which will never be achieved on a bike. There is only one version of the facts.

[toaster]

My $.02

A friend of mine repairs dental handpieces, or dentist drills, and these things spin in excess of 400,000 rpm.

Currently, the best bearings he installs are hybrid ceramic and replace steel balls. They spin faster, smoother, and are quieter (we all hate the sound of that drill!).

But, in a bicycle application it just doesn't have the precision or the speed. At 400,000 rpm in a handpiece there is no grease or oil left after initial oiling since it spins out.The synthetic oil simply cleans out debris so the ceramic balls can spin faster than steel normally would in that application.

Save money, no need for ceramic bearings for bikes, IMHO.

[Louis]

I tend to believe what you guys are saying, that steel is certainly good enough. (I sure as heck know that it's good enough for me.)

However, the implication is that all the guys who do buy ceramic are mostly just following a "get me the most expensive, the best out there" mentality. That doesn't say much about their ability to choose appropriate bike components.

[oldpotatoe]

dam, I wished I lived within a reasonable distance to your shop... well, except for all the snow in winter.... ;)

I was in SanDiego before moving back to CO after 20 years flyin' in the USN. Was at Miramar before it being lost to the USMC.. GREAT riding, belonged to Ranchos CC, lived in RB.

[oldpotatoe]

I tend to believe what you guys are saying, that steel is certainly good enough. (I sure as heck know that it's good enough for me.)

However, the implication is that all the guys who do buy ceramic are mostly just following a "get me the most expensive, the best out there" mentality. That doesn't say much about their ability to choose appropriate bike components.

Expensive does not equal 'the best' in this example. Why do ya suppose a lot of ceramic BB cups are pretty colors? So they can be seen and admired at the coffee shop.

[Bob Loblaw]

If you really want to reduce bearing drag and save yourself the 0.75 watts you may be wasting, you'd be better off with an unsealed BB, such as an old school Campy square taper. Properly installed and lubed with Phil Wood grease, you can't do better in terms of resistance.

BL

[fourflys]

I was in SanDiego before moving back to CO after 20 years flyin' in the USN. Was at Miramar before it being lost to the USMC.. GREAT riding, belonged to Ranchos CC, lived in RB.


I live in the same area... Coast Guard for me though... I'm actually one of the Deacons at Rancho Bernardo Community Presbyterian Church...

small world...

[wasfast]

...inducing minor thread drift...I just moved to RB from Portland. I live just up Pomerado in Oaks North from your church. I rode with Rancho's the last couple weeks. Fairly large group, fast enough for me!

I visited the Enduro booth last weekend at Endurance Live at the Convention center. They had a couple cranks with the ceramic bearings in them. Feel smooth but the actual resistance difference when measured is nearly nothing. Seal interference and lubrication are big contributors in many sealed bearings, forgetting steel vs hybrid ceramic.

[TAW]

I'm going against the flow, but I do think they make a difference. We've installed some at the shop, and I have the VCRC bottom bracket in my own bike. Not much difference in my opinion in the wheels, but definitely a difference in the bb compared to Dura Ace. Spins with much less friction, feels smoother in your hands.

[Jeff N.]

To answer the original post question: No. Jeff N.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm going against the flow, but I do think they make a difference. We've installed some at the shop, and I have the VCRC bottom bracket in my own bike. Not much difference in my opinion in the wheels, but definitely a difference in the bb compared to Dura Ace. Spins with much less friction, feels smoother in your hands.

Take the seals off the DA bearings and try the same thing. If ya like them, well and good but they are the stuff of marketing department, not the racing department.

[ergott]

For everyone that swears by the differences ceramic bearings make, where is the empirical evidence? "Feels smoother" just doesn't wash with me. :rolleyes:

[fourflys]

I was in SanDiego before moving back to CO after 20 years flyin' in the USN. Was at Miramar before it being lost to the USMC...

BTW- you guys know that Miramar was Top Gun right? I'm thinking Oldpotatoe is who Maverick was based on... Pete Mitchel/Pete V.? coincidence? I think not... :D


the real question is... who was Iceman? ;)


gotta mess with you a little Pete... you were a pilot after all... :beer:

[Peter B]

C'mon Eric, everyone knows ceramic bearings in your jockey wheels make you faster. Plus they smooth your shifts. Probably extends chain life and vertical compliance too.

[ergott]

C'mon Eric, everyone knows ceramic bearings in your jockey wheels make you faster. Plus they smooth your shifts. Probably extends chain life and vertical compliance too.

You messed it up. It should read...

"Laterally stiffer yet vertically compliant."

- :beer:

[TAW]

For everyone that swears by the differences ceramic bearings make, where is the empirical evidence? "Feels smoother" just doesn't wash with me. :rolleyes:

Well, I suppose in my mind, less friction equals more speed. I believe we speak of smooth bearings in hubs as being good, and less rolling resistance on tires as also being a benefit. We could argue about the incremental differences of such things, and even show the smallness of such things by machine testing, but those differences cannot be measured by a rider on a bike, whose energy levels differ from hour to hour. Over a 6 hour ride, anything that benefits a rider, even at small levels could make a big difference in how a person feels over time.

As a person who makes a (small) portion of his living by the bike industry, it behooves me to consider any new technology. And, it doesn't bother me if some consider me an idiot for having an opinion on those things. :)

[Tom Kellogg]

Looking to build a bike up with SRAM Red. Deciding whether to go with the ceramic bearings or the regular bottom bracket. Cost savings is about 100 which to me is pretty significant, but I am willing to drop the coin if it is noticeably better. Thanks for your thoughts.

Don't pay the extra. You can replace the "inferior" steel bearings five times before paying what one set of the ceramic ones cost. I can get the Red bearings at a discount and I ride the steel ones. I still won two races last year even on those crappy bearings that last about ten thousand miles. Do you note any sarcasm in my voice???

[ergott]

Well, I suppose in my mind, less friction equals more speed. I believe we speak of smooth bearings in hubs as being good, and less rolling resistance on tires as also being a benefit. We could argue about the incremental differences of such things, and even show the smallness of such things by machine testing, but those differences cannot be measured by a rider on a bike, whose energy levels differ from hour to hour. Over a 6 hour ride, anything that benefits a rider, even at small levels could make a big difference in how a person feels over time.

As a person who makes a (small) portion of his living by the bike industry, it behooves me to consider any new technology. And, it doesn't bother me if some consider me an idiot for having an opinion on those things. :)

No name calling from me. I just never saw any conclusive evidence from an actual study that showed ceramic bearings to offer any wattage savings from the best that stainless steel bearings have to offer. I want to see an comparison where the bearing grades are reported and comparable, seals are the same and the lubricant is optimized for the material. If they prove to show a few watts of savings, then it's worth it for some riders to consider.

Not all steel bearings are created equal and the same can be said for ceramic bearings. Just putting the label "ceramic" on a set of bearings means nothing.

:beer:

[Black Dog]

For everyone that swears by the differences ceramic bearings make, where is the empirical evidence? "Feels smoother" just doesn't wash with me. :rolleyes:

+1

Seal drag of the BB bearings probably amounts to less than 1/100th of 1% of the overall resistance generated while riding a bike.

[Peter P.]

The conclusive evidence everybody wants to see was in a printed article in VeloNews a couple years ago.

Lennard Zinn and crew scientifically measured the energy savings of ceramic versus steel bearings. If I recall, the benefit was a "whopping" 3 watts or so.

Considering the cost involved, the benefit is nothing.

[Fixed]

Looking to build a bike up with SRAM Red. Deciding whether to go with the ceramic bearings or the regular bottom bracket. Cost savings is about 100 which to me is pretty significant, but I am willing to drop the coin if it is noticeably better. Thanks for your thoughts.
if you are a rider who is obsessed
with the latest and the greatest get it
,the last finishing touch
if it lets you sleep better at night
cheers
imho

[avalonracing]

The conclusive evidence everybody wants to see was in a printed article in VeloNews a couple years ago.

Lennard Zinn and crew scientifically measured the energy savings of ceramic versus steel bearings. If I recall, the benefit was a "whopping" 3 watts or so.



That seems high.

[ergott]

The conclusive evidence everybody wants to see was in a printed article in VeloNews a couple years ago.

Lennard Zinn and crew scientifically measured the energy savings of ceramic versus steel bearings. If I recall, the benefit was a "whopping" 3 watts or so.

Considering the cost involved, the benefit is nothing.


Leonard Zinn's "science" is always spotty at best. I don't remember the particulars of that article, but I remember when his "testing" concluded that Campagnolo Hyperons were more aerodynamic than Zipp 303s. Independant testing proved Zipps numbers close enough to call BS on that one. His articles are good for selling magazines these days.

He also states that Campagnolo 10 speed levers and a Sram rear mech will shift a Shimano cassette. The numbers don't work out and it didn't work for my either.

Eric

[forrestw]

No name calling from me. I just never saw any conclusive evidence from an actual study that showed ceramic bearings to offer any wattage savings from the best that stainless steel bearings have to offer. I want to see an comparison where the bearing grades are reported and comparable, seals are the same and the lubricant is optimized for the material. If they prove to show a few watts of savings, then it's worth it for some riders to consider.

Not all steel bearings are created equal and the same can be said for ceramic bearings. Just putting the label "ceramic" on a set of bearings means nothing.

:beer:

There's no question that (the best) ceramic ball / roller bearings offer some savings in lower friction, additionally ceramic holds up better in a contaminated environment and should last longer than steel. (btw as far as I know no ball bearings use stainless, M50 / 52100 tool steel is the most common material for high end balls / races.

The main components of real world ball/roller bearing wear IMX are influx of water and dirt. Bikes get dirty and some of that dirt gets into the bearings. Bike shops aren't clean rooms and some contaminant gets into the bearings on assembly. In my experience those small degrees of contaminant can be felt right off, you can feel a bit of crunchiness in the freshly assembled bearing, how much depending on how good your conditions/care are. If you've ever had to repair a failed bearing to get home, you probably put it together relatively crunchy. In the first few hundred revolutions whatever dirt was in the bearing has been busted down to micro-dirt and the bearing action actually feels pretty good.

Today most of our bikes have seals on most of the bearings, not so 30 years ago and anyone who maintained or continues to maintain pre-90s bikes knows what I'm talking about i.e. dirt is gonna get in. This is true of our modern sealed bearings also e.g. the seals in my Campy UT crank are a marvel of low friction but they're also somewhat limited in ability to keep water and grit out. While they're working they're damned low friction but so far I haven't been able to get the drive side to go more than 5k miles before the bearing fails.

A Machine Design on ceramic bearings in machine tool spindles (sorry I can't paste from the PDF) says that ceramics are less prone to galling problems common to steel-steel bearings in a water-contaminated environment. (Machine Design, Nov 2002 pg 82). They also say that ceramics require less lubrication (for you and I that could equate to less drag by way of lubricating with oil instead of grease).

More directly useful a paper in the journal 'Wear' - Volume 239, Issue 2, April 2000, Pages 176-188 finds that when bearings are lubricated with pre-contaminated oil that Silicone Nitride ceramic hybrid bearings hold up far better than steel-steel when the contaminant was 'arizona test dust' i.e. dirt. This makes good sense as the dust in question is harder than bearing steel but less hard than the ceramic.

Even one watt is worth something, if a pro rider is putting out 300 watts average over a stage race then ceramic bearings could be saving .33%. If I were setting up a bike for a pro with UT cranks I'd use the expensive bearing, lube it with tenacious oil instead of grease and maybe even replace the seals with non-contact dust caps on days without rain.

That's a setup that I think would match or improve on cup & cone bearings (which remain my personal favorite). However just as I don't ride my hand-built frame with a cup&cone BB spindle in rain, I don't have the time to be cleaning / re-lubing my UT BB every night -- I assume the pro's mechanics do. I also don't feel like ponying up $100 to find out if they'll hold up long enough to make the difference worth it and doubt that the seals will last the 25k miles that would hit my break-even point.

So yeah, I think there's value in ceramic bearings for pro peloton riders but not the rest of us :-).

[Sevenrider]

save your $$ buy several gxp sets so you have a spare 2500 mi on sram ceramic's (junk) imho

[ergott]

snipped

That's a setup that I think would match or improve on cup & cone bearings (which remain my personal favorite). However just as I don't ride my hand-built frame with a cup&cone BB spindle in rain, I don't have the time to be cleaning / re-lubing my UT BB every night -- I assume the pro's mechanics do. I also don't feel like ponying up $100 to find out if they'll hold up long enough to make the difference worth it and doubt that the seals will last the 25k miles that would hit my break-even point.

So yeah, I think there's value in ceramic bearings for pro peloton riders but not the rest of us :-).

1 watt is still a number that is tossed around, but I still have yet to see a published test confirming this. At best I've read of "tests" that don't mention under what conditions and finally, comparing which steel vs. ceramic.

Using the imaginary 1watt number it could be converted into kJ saved vs. kJ expended for a typical pro level race. I don't do that sort of math, but I know others that do. That would be more valuable use of the data. Then I would like to see what that would equate to for a typical "Joe" who does about 2000kJ on a nice weekend ride.

Bearing contamination during service isn't much of an issue anymore with the prevalence of sealed bearings in most components. Take the cost of a set of Phil Wood bearings for a BB and compare cost/longevity to ceramic bearings and I would love to see the result. The last set of bearings I used lasted 5+ years and 20k miles or so. The rebuild was about $30. Ceramic bearings would have to last a couple of decades to make up for their cost at that rate.

I just see so many better places to put one's money than overpriced bearings.

[Peter B]

If you're at <3% body fat and make your living racing a bike *perhaps* ceramics make sense. For the rest of us poseurs, shut up and ride; you'll get much more benefit.

[ergott]

If you're at <3% body fat and make your living racing a bike *perhaps* ceramics make sense. For the rest of us poseurs, shut up and ride; you'll get much more benefit.

I would put the bearings as last on the list.

1) rider
2) fit
3) frame/fork (that accomplishes #2 and awesome handling)
4) aerodynamics (improve wherever possible including #3 without disturbing #2)
5) lighten (wherever possible)
6) bearings

How many people (not professional racers) have 1-5 done?

:beer:

[HSG Racer]

To go against the grain, I did notice a significant although not a huge difference when I replaced my Dura Ace BB bearings with Enduro bearings. I purchased the Dura Ace 10 crank and BB shortly after the 7800 DA 10 grouppo hit the market and the stock BBs that came with it were just crappy. I thought that the DA 9 7700 inboard BB spun much better.

I'm not familiar with the SRAM Road grouppo so I really don't have anything to say about the quality of the stock steel bearings. And to be fair, Shimano has improved their DA 10 stuff considerably since it first came out 6 plus years ago. But I can say with no reservations that the Enduro BB that replaced the original stock DA 10 BB was a measurable improvement.

:fight:

[ergott]

To go against the grain, I did notice a significant although not a huge difference when I replaced my Dura Ace BB bearings with Enduro bearings. I purchased the Dura Ace 10 crank and BB shortly after the 7800 DA 10 grouppo hit the market and the stock BBs that came with it were just crappy. I thought that the DA 9 7700 inboard BB spun much better.

I'm not familiar with the SRAM Road grouppo so I really don't have anything to say about the quality of the stock steel bearings. And to be fair, Shimano has improved their DA 10 stuff considerably since it first came out 6 plus years ago. But I can say with no reservations that the Enduro BB that replaced the original stock DA 10 BB was a measurable improvement.

:fight:

I have a Phil Wood bottom bracket with steel bearings that will amaze you. It's all about comparing quality examples of each material.

:beer:

[Mr. Butterworth]

I've found ceramic BB30 bearings last longer than their steel bearing counterparts, especially when used in poor conditions. Don't know if they're faster and don't really care. I just like not having to replace BB30 bearings as often.

[ergott]

I've found ceramic BB30 bearings last longer than their steel bearing counterparts, especially when used in poor conditions. Don't know if they're faster and don't really care. I just like not having to replace BB30 bearings as often.

What bearings are you using for comparison?

[Mr. Butterworth]

What bearings are you using for comparison?

Had a whole team on FSA BB30 cranks last year. On some bikes I used the FSA Ceramic bearings, on others, their standard ones. Found the ceramics to last longer and spin smoother over time.

[ergott]

Had a whole team on FSA BB30 cranks last year. On some bikes I used the FSA Ceramic bearings, on others, their standard ones. Found the ceramics to last longer and spin smoother over time.

I think it would be wise to check out Phil Wood bearings before you blame steel bearings in general. They make bb30 bearings for about $60 (or better if you shop around) for the set. I know I sound like a broken record here, but Everyone that has used their bottom brackets or just the bearings have raved about how long they last (myself included).

[Mr. Butterworth]

I think it would be wise to check out Phil Wood bearings before you blame steel bearings in general. They make bb30 bearings for about $60 (or better if you shop around) for the set. I know I sound like a broken record here, but Everyone that has used their bottom brackets or just the bearings have raved about how long they last (myself included).

Cool. Will check those out and I have no doubt they're better than the OEM spec bearings that come with FSA cranks.

[ergott]

Phil Wood part number PWX06.

:beer:

[soulspinner]

There are very very round steel bearings(Phil) and not so round ceramics. Once again, its how well designed/ made the bearings and races are, not the type of bearing. My square taper Campy bb with 27000 miles has never been replaced and still spins smooooothly(no rain).

[oldpotatoe]

BTW- you guys know that Miramar was Top Gun right? I'm thinking Oldpotatoe is who Maverick was based on... Pete Mitchel/Pete V.? coincidence? I think not... :D


the real question is... who was Iceman? ;)


gotta mess with you a little Pete... you were a pilot after all... :beer:

Miramar was the center for West Coast USN Fighter Aviation. 'TopGun' was a wee small part of it. TopGun taught aviators to go back to their squadrons to be training officers. They were not/are not the holy grail of fighter aviation and they are now in Fallon Nevada.

My squadron(VF-126, Pacific Fleet Adversary Squadron) was the last step before an entire squadron deployed. We ensured their fighter tactics were up to date and the aviators were ready to take the fight to enemy air forces. We trained the squadron via the TopGun trained training officers. TopGun trained avaitors aren't the 'best', the guys the CO calls upon to beat up the guys in the black jets. That's just the moovie.

TopGun had a movie is all.

[fourflys]

TopGun had a movie is all.

I was just messing with you... trust me, there is a lot more to the Coast Guard than rescue swimmers and helos as depicted in "The Guardian"....

it's all good brother!