i sent an email to Speedplay suggesting they pay attention

[Charles M]

Interesting thread at Weight Weenies where Speedplay seem to have a problem with the use of commonly available replacement parts being used instead of paying way more money through speedplay...

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=80010&p=715714#p715714


The poster intimates that Speedplay will tale legal action because he gave people a how too article and because he was selling parts available through many sources (that also seemed to work better).

I'm honestly a little ticked off in the case that Speedplay are doing this, but "the letter" needs posting as well...

On the cover, it seems like a slimeball move by speedplay.

[xjoex]

Not my fight, sorry.


Sorry there was some confusion, I just copied the person selling aftermarket replacement parts story to this post. I have no involvement.

[pbjbike]

I held Bryne's hand for an hour and a half in '91, when I was working in Somerville, and told him everything he needed to know about Ti and machining Ti axles. He was clueless about the material, alloys, and everything else. Richard promised to send several pairs of the first production Ti X/1's to Merlin. Never heard from him again.

I trust his lawyers are charging way more than what he reaps in bearing/seal sales. Start a website with your rebuild services, and I might start riding lollipop pedals again. :beer:

[avalonracing]

I trust his lawyers are charging way more than what he reaps in bearing/seal sales. Start a website with your rebuild services, and I might start riding lollipop pedals again.

Nice idea.

[oldpotatoe]

Interesting thread at Weight Weenies where Speedplay seem to have a problem with the use of commonly available replacement parts being used instead of paying way more money through speedplay...

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=80010&p=715714#p715714


The poster intimates that Speedplay will tale legal action because he gave people a how too article and because he was selling parts available through many sources (that also seemed to work better).

I'm honestly a little ticked off in the case that Speedplay are doing this, but "the letter" needs posting as well...

On the cover, it seems like a slimeball move by speedplay.


Hmmmm...These are bicycle pedals right? They work, the rebuild kits are not that expensive in this bike world of $20,000 bicycles, $500 pedals and $3000 groups. They are easy to service, are simple and they work just like pedals ought to. I don't think any company is out of line when trying to protect their propriatary-ness...if that's a word. If somebody started making cheaper spokes for Mavic Kysiriums, for example, I'm sure Mavic would complain also.

But if SP pisses you off, there are plenty of other pedals out there...plenty.

[Charles M]

Apples and oranges...


If That spoke were a standard length generic butted spoke, available through multiple sources, Mavic would have no grounds...

If that were a replacement Rsys spoke or something not commonly available, that would be different.


This guy was also told to remove a forum post about how to rebuild the pedal (which, as you say, is a very easy thing to do) and he posted a number of sources for the parts that are in wide use for lots of things.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . protecting one's patent is one thing. It's not what they are doing, it's HOW they are doing it.

Such handling of a brand image may have worked 20 years ago when the Internet was in its childhood. But any company that behaves in this manner today is just asking for it publicity-wise. They are alienating an intelligent, savvy, and communicative customer base that uses a lot of pedals. They are also in a situation where it is now known they have practiced this behavior repeatedly for an extended period of time.

The real question to me is how much of their customer base hears this story and how many of them care enough to stop using SP pedals. I have never used them, but you can bet your sweet heiney I'm not going to recommend them to any of my friends any more who may have knee problems and need something with extra float.

BBD

[eddief]

and it bugs me that the only route to full rebuild parts is via just a few outlets and only in their packaging. The rebuild parts are spendy in my opinion. I have found non-Speedplay branded bearings and those do tend to go first.

I guess they have not yet hammered the guy on ebay who does Frog repairs:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Repair-Service-Speedplay-Frog-Pedals-Low-Cost-/170583161155?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27b78c7943

Maybe because Speedplay did not invent the Frog, God did. And you don't want to screw with him.

[oldpotatoe]

Apples and oranges...


If That spoke were a standard length generic butted spoke, available through multiple sources, Mavic would have no grounds...

If that were a replacement Rsys spoke or something not commonly available, that would be different.


This guy was also told to remove a forum post about how to rebuild the pedal (which, as you say, is a very easy thing to do) and he posted a number of sources for the parts that are in wide use for lots of things.

They guy is peeved at the 'extremely high cost'(sic) of replacement parts..

which, IMO, are not.

So he started a campaign to undercut Speedplay and SP doesn't like it..

I donno, just not surprised at the SP response. It doesn't get my juices flowing as much as others.

[oldpotatoe]

. . . protecting one's patent is one thing. It's not what they are doing, it's HOW they are doing it.

Such handling of a brand image may have worked 20 years ago when the Internet was in its childhood. But any company that behaves in this manner today is just asking for it publicity-wise. They are alienating an intelligent, savvy, and communicative customer base that uses a lot of pedals. They are also in a situation where it is now known they have practiced this behavior repeatedly for an extended period of time.

The real question to me is how much of their customer base hears this story and how many of them care enough to stop using SP pedals. I have never used them, but you can bet your sweet heiney I'm not going to recommend them to any of my friends any more who may have knee problems and need something with extra float.

BBD


Sigh...that's a bigger problem than this. More float is not a panacea for knee pain..

Sprong...thread drift.

Campagnolo clamps down on gray/black market and shuts down all the deep discount resellers of Campagnolo in outhern UK...the response here would be??

Seems like protecting their market....to me.
I isn't going to stop using or selling SP pedals..they are great pedals.

[Big Dan]

Speedplay? really? what a joke.

[bironi]

I started using the x-series road pedals earlier than the ww guy. I switched to Frogs for ease of walking about 3 yrs back. I was also disappointed how Speedplay replacement parts prices escalated over the years, and were only packaged with more than I needed.

The truth is that they make a nice pricey pedal, but do they really need to gouge on parts?

Just my 2 cents. :beer:

[Charles M]

Campagnolo clamps down on gray/black market and shuts down all the deep discount resellers of Campagnolo in outhern UK...the response here would be??
.


You're still off base...

Speedplay demand an SRP on products they make, as do many companies...

I dont hear about Campy sueing people who rebuild their hubs with Ceramicspeed bearings. Dont see em knocking on your door if someone asks you to replace crank bearings. Havent hard of them sending a legal team after Wipperman because they make a chain that fits 11 speed...

[eddief]

and the guy ought to call the bluff. I'd be quite tempted I think to ignore them and keep providing a great service and a good price. Put me on the jury.

[oldpotatoe]

You're still off base...

Speedplay demand an SRP on products they make, as do many companies...

I dont hear about Campy sueing people who rebuild their hubs with Ceramicspeed bearings. Dont see em knocking on your door if someone asks you to replace crank bearings. Havent hard of them sending a legal team after Wipperman because they make a chain that fits 11 speed...

Well then don't use them, send all the SP pedals you have received back and don't test them..This is small pototoes. I still don't think SP is offbase for trying to protect their 'market'.

[1centaur]

ancientspud:

Campy is clamping down on sellers of NEW product, Speedplay is clamping down on somebody who rebuilds old product, claiming some kind of implied patent protection when he is using generic parts with full disclosure that he is so doing. I so far cannot imagine that Speedplay have a legitimate legal claim, in which case they are using lawyers to intimidate people who are doing something legal by dangling the potential for legal costs which the little guy cannot pay. Given how fast their lawyers pick up on the word Speedplay on the Net, they have seen these threads, have seen the damage being done to their name, and have said...NOTHING. If their case had a legitimate side, they would be very foolish not to respond. Their silence suggests the accusations in the threads have merit.

The world is full of people who rebuild stock parts (auto parts, for example) without being threatened. It's not surprising that the non-lawyers out here on the Net are miffed.

I use Speedplay pedals and really like them. I am very sorry to see this thread as I have long admired their better-mousetrap success. Their brand image has been tarnished in my eyes and obviously in others'. They would be wise to respond as this is a small community.

[pbjbike]

ancientspud:

Campy is clamping down on sellers of NEW product, Speedplay is clamping down on somebody who rebuilds old product, claiming some kind of implied patent protection when he is using generic parts with full disclosure that he is so doing. I so far cannot imagine that Speedplay have a legitimate legal claim, in which case they are using lawyers to intimidate people who are doing something legal by dangling the potential for legal costs which the little guy cannot pay. Given how fast their lawyers pick up on the word Speedplay on the Net, they have seen these threads, have seen the damage being done to their name, and have said...NOTHING. If their case had a legitimate side, they would be very foolish not to respond. Their silence suggests the accusations in the threads have merit.

The world is full of people who rebuild stock parts (auto parts, for example) without being threatened. It's not surprising that the non-lawyers out here on the Net are miffed.

I use Speedplay pedals and really like them. I am very sorry to see this thread as I have long admired their better-mousetrap success. Their brand image has been tarnished in my eyes and obviously in others'. They would be wise to respond as this is a small community.

+1
You nailed it.

[eddief]

if you have an opinion, let Speedplay know via their website. There is a form to fill out, but also a general email address to send stuff to.

There are a number of factors going on here and I can't wait to see if any of the dynamics change. Regardless of your point of view, this sort of "conversation" can make a difference...especially to a smallish company like Speedplay.

If you read the entries on the closed thread on weight weenies, they are way ahead of us on their number of opinions, and if true, some downer stories about the strong arm of Speedplay.

This is cool. Internet and democracy at its best? worse?

[fourflys]

I'll let Speedplay know my displeasure by my ability to keep riding my Dura Ace pedals without having to rebuild them at all...

I've never got what all the hoopla about Speedplay's were anyway... tried 'em, never liked 'em...

[Rueda Tropical]

Try Bebop.

Similar in feel, stack height and weight, much nicer and more compact cleat. I believe they wound up in court with Speedplay but I don't know who sued who.

[thenewguy11]

I'm in the market for a new set of pedals and, if nothing else, I can eliminate Speedplays from the list. I'd wager that the company is damaging their brand with this penny ante nonsense and it'll cost them sales. Tons? No, but like someone said earlier, this is a pretty small community and word travels.

[eddief]

the viral nature of the internet can really bite ya on the butt.

[HenryA]

Its a bullying tactic without any grounds at all. They ought to be ashamed, but probably think they're being smart and tough (and a bully).

[slowandsteady]

ancientspud:
If their case had a legitimate side, they would be very foolish not to respond. Their silence suggests the accusations in the threads have merit.

I use Speedplay pedals and really like them. I am very sorry to see this thread as I have long admired their better-mousetrap success. Their brand image has been tarnished in my eyes and obviously in others'. They would be wise to respond as this is a small community.

+1

S**tplay has SEVERELY tarnished their image with this type of unfounded and unsupported harassment.

I will not be rebuilding my pedalsafter the next 1,000 miles or so but will instead take my business to a more ethical company.

[fourflys]

I will not be rebuilding my pedalsafter the next 1,000 miles or so but will instead take my business to a more ethical company.

how often do these need rebuilt as compared to other pedals? I've used Shimano almost exclusively (tried a few others here an there) and never had to rebuild a pair yet...

just not sure I'd put up with a pedal system I had to rebuild every couple of thousand miles regardless if they were the flavor of the month of not...

[FlashUNC]

If my decade-old pair of Looks ever kick the bucket, I know who I won't be buying pedals from.

On that note, highly recommend Look pedals. My PP296s haven't had any maintenance to speak of beyond an occasional cleaning, and still spin smooth.

Oh, and they don't try to stick it to people.

[tuxbailey]

Well, I used speedplay long time ago. They were nice but their cleats trap dirt/mud like nothing else. Switched to Look and I haven't regretted yet.

I doubt I will be buying speedplays in the future.

[Louis]

Speedplay management are idiots if they listen to their lawyers on this one.

Their competition is not some little guy helping out other cyclists save a few bucks on the side, it's Shimano, Campy, Look, etc. If they think they need to make money rebuilding their pedals, as opposed to improving their product and selling more that don't need to be rebuilt that often, they are truly idiots.

[unwell_ultra]

I've used speedplay zero's for a long time now and will continue to do so. I've also rebuilt all of my pedals at one time or another. Very easy to do and no it doesn't need to be done every couple thousand miles. Speedplay even gave me the correct bearing # as the # on the OEM bearing didn't cross with any bearing at my local bearing house.

Yes what Speedpaly is doing sounds overbearing!

[Ken Robb]

[QUOTE=

Yes what Speedpaly is doing sounds overbearing![/QUOTE]
"Overbearing" :beer: --I get it!

[avalonracing]

Speedplay management are idiots if they listen to their lawyers on this one.


And it could be exactly that. Someone in management putting their trust in the advice of an over-zealous attorney that is trying to justify their fees.

[troymac]

Speedplay would be better served to let this go IMO. The Internet can be a two edged sword for good press as well as bad. There's a permanence on the net and bad things can stick with you forever.

[bfd]

Back in 2008, I rebuild a set of SP Frogs. When I took my Frog pedal apart, I found the bearings to be a basic cartridge and needle bearing. I went to a local bearing shop and picked up one cartridge bearing (p/n R4Z) and 1 needle bearing (p/n HK1010) for a total cost of $10. The o-ring was replaceable, but the
one I had seemed OK, so I reused it.

Btw, the original R4Z was an NBK and replaced with one from KYY (or was it YKK? The box stated it was made in Japan). The original needle bearing only had the part number on it (HK 1010). The replacement was a FAG (Germany) model HK1010B (Sounds like a famous dropout...) So DIY and save. Good Luck!

[ultraman6970]

I would love to see people from here sending his old and used speedplays pedals to their corporate office by mail with a little notice saying something like this. "Sorry, i dont like you any more."

Even a campaign can be done in different forums to call people to do the same, after the pair 100 shows up they will get the msg that they screw up big time.

I dont like the pedals but go and attach a really small fish that after all is helping them to sell? Even there is a big chance that his work can be taken as an upgrade for their own product? the really suck. Another reason to do not use their product.

[Rada]

I am always turned off by companies employing such petty tactics. I am glad I saw this posting as I had recently decided to give the X/1s a try in replacing my beat up DAs. Not now, I'll be sticking with the DAs when I order.

[Dekonick]

I am always turned off by companies employing such petty tactics. I am glad I saw this posting as I had recently decided to give the X/1s a try in replacing my beat up DAs. Not now, I'll be sticking with the DAs when I order.

Agreed.

Tactics seem more like those from the Armstrong camp...

Poor form!

Thumbs down!

:no:

[bikemoore]

While I think Speedplay is being unreasonable, I don't think you should stop using them yourself. OK, so you can't sell rebuild kits and services....but if you like the performance of the pedals and already know how to save yourself and a few friends $$ in rebuilding them, then I would continue to use them. Speedplay just doesn't get to have you pay them for rebuilding your pedals and those of immediate friends while you get to continue the benefit of still using your preferred pedals. Nothing they can do about that. Let Speedplay deal with the fallout of their actions.

Sometimes you can't fight the man quite as much as you would like to. So take pleasure in the smaller victory of rebuilding your own (a few friends), saving a bit of $$, and still using your favorite pedals. Win-win situation for both Speedplay and you.

[Elefantino]

While I think Speedplay is being unreasonable, I don't think you should stop using them yourself. OK, so you can't sell rebuild kits and services....but if you like the performance of the pedals and already know how to save yourself and a few friends $$ in rebuilding them, then I would continue to use them. Speedplay just doesn't get to have you pay them for rebuilding your pedals and those of immediate friends while you get to continue the benefit of still using your preferred pedals. Nothing they can do about that. Let Speedplay deal with the fallout of their actions.

Sometimes you can't fight the man quite as much as you would like to. So take pleasure in the smaller victory of rebuilding your own (a few friends), saving a bit of $$, and still using your favorite pedals. Win-win situation for both Speedplay and you.
+1.

One rebuild in 11 years on my oldest pair. I'll stick with them.

[William]

I've been using Speedplays since the mid 90's for racing and recreation but I have to say that tactics like this leave a bad taste in my mouth. I'll be checking out the Bebops and if I like them, Speedplay has lost my business.





William

[Charles M]

The letter he recieved is up on page 8 of the thread now.

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=80010&start=105


Pretty simply a form letter, touching on a lot of things that have nothing to do with the OP's business...

[bobswire]

Thanks for the heads up Pez, It was with great reluctance and tribulation that I
registered with WW (after many years of swearing I wouldn't) if only to lend my support to frikinspita and condemnation of speedplay.

[LegendRider]

I sure wish an intellectual property attorney would do some pro-bono work for "frikinspit."

[eddief]

or am I misguided?

[slowandsteady]

Cut and pasted here from Weight Weenies thread - Letss post it to every forum possible and get the word out there for those currently using (and staying with) Speedplay.

I also think a simple letter to the company is a brilliant idea - let OUR voices be heard!!! Anyone have a list of all the forums that this has been posted on? I'd like to send them an e-mail telling them they need to take a look at the reality and stupidity of their thinking and cite all of the negative press their products are receiving never mind lost sales and more importantly lost referrals for additional sales etc.

http://www.speedplay.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.contact
email@speedplay.com
800.468.6694

----------------------------------------------------------------------
How to Service Your Speedplay Pedals:

The needle bearings on all models of Speedplay road bike pedals are NOT fused or glued in any way and are very easy to change out. Instructions below.

The only differences between the X1 and X2 are spindle material and body color. You can rebuild your X1’s with X2 bodies with NO problems. They are the exact same except for color. No need to spend $100+ to rebuild your pedals.

I have measured the internals of all of the models listed below using a micrometer and found that they are all identical and cross-compatible. The bodies, cleats and bowties are different, but inside they are all the same.

X1 & X2.
Zero Ti, Stainless & Chromoly.
Light Action Ti & Stainless

You can interchange bodies and spindles between all pedals listed above. Note: Ti spindles are 2mm shorter. You can use Ward Ti spindles on any of the models listed above.

X5 (aka X3) and Light Action Chromoly are completely different inside and not compatible with the other pedals listed above.

To do a full rebuild requires the following items which can be found at any bearing/hardware supply company:

2 each - HK1010 Needle Bearings. Measurements: OD=14mm BORE=10mm WIDTH=10mm.

2 each - Bearing 136 also known as 686z, 686zz, 686 z, 686 zz. Measurements: OD=13mm BORE=6mm WIDTH=5mm

2 each - Bearing 137 also known as 137z, 137zz, mr137, mr137z, mr137zz, mr 137, mr 137 z, mr 137 zz. Measurements: OD=13mm BORE=7mm WIDTH =4mm

2 each - Inner Retaining Ring BORE=1/2" WIDTH=0.03"

2 each - Rubber O-Ring. ID=5/16" OD=7/16" WIDTH=1/16"

For those of you wanting to lighten up your pedals with aluminum or titanium screws the screw size is:

Bowtie Screws - M4 x 0.7 x 17mm recessed flat head in Stainless Steel. 17mm is the total length of the screw top-to-bottom. 16mm is much easier to find and there should be no problems using the shorter screws for this application. Some flat head screws have a head that is too tall and can protrude from the top of the bowtie. Make sure you get low head screws.

Spindle Screws - M4 x 0.7 x 8mm button head in Furnace Black Steel. 8mm is the length of the threads below the head.

To replace the bearings unscrew the grease port screw. Using a pick pry off the dust cap. Older pedals will not have the grease port or port screw. Next, remove the spindle screw by using a torx bit or allen wrench (depending on the type of screw) and either a 6mm or 8mm Hex in the Spindle or a 15mm wrench on the Spindle flats (depending on your spindle type).

If, at this point, the screw is stuck do not overtorque it or you will risk stripping out the head. The loctite is seizing the screw. Disclaimer: The following method is not approved by Speedplay and any carelessness can result in injury. You will need to heat the screw to melt the loctite. To do so get a hex bit screw driver and hex bit with the proper torx or allen head for the screw. A hex bit is a small bit the that slides into a quick-change screw driver. Do a Google search for 'hex bit if you don't know or go to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Torx_drivers.jpg Place just the hex bit into the screw holding the pedal with the screw straight up. Now with a blow torch or good heat gun heat up the end of the bit (furthest point away from the pedal)until it is red hot making sure you do not heat the pedal body. Wait for about 30 seconds to allow the heat from the bit to transfer into the screw melting the loctite. Then slide the hex bit screw driver onto the bit and unscrew. If heated thoroughly the screw will unscrew with minimal effort.

With the screw removed you can now slide the entire body assembly off. The old o-ring should be on the spindle. Remove and discard. Wipe the spindle clean and set aside. Using a retaining ring tool compress the ring and pull straight out. Now using a punch or screw driver carefully tap out the 2 bearings. Discard the old retaining ring and bearings.

Flip the pedal body around to the side with the needle bearing. On the outside lip of the bearing is a thin wire retaining ring. Most all early models do not have this retaining ring. If your dust cap does not have a grease port screw, it probably does not have the retaining ring. Take a pick and pry up one side of the retaining ring. Then with a pair of pliers pull it out. If it is damaged don't worry. You can usually bend it back and tap it in. If not it is not a 'necessary' piece and you can use your pedals without it. No problem. Flip the pedal over and you will see 2 slots behind the needle bearing. Take a small flat blade screw driver and insert into one of the slots and tap with a rubber mallet. The needle bearing will pop right off. Note that the old bearing will now be damaged and is not re-useable. Wipe the inside clean.

To reassemble first place the new o-ring onto the spindle about 1/3 of the way. Now take the new needle bearing and slide it in as far as you can by hand. Make sure the lettering is on the outside as each side is slightly different. Then carefully tap it with a rubber mallet until it is flush with the pedal body. Take the old needle bearing and place it on the new bearing and tap with a rubber mallet until it is completely seated. Discard the old needle bearing. Take the metal retaining ring and tap it into the slot. Now take the pedal body and slide in the 2 bearings making sure you slide in the thinner bearing first. Make sure the bearings are seated all the way in before installing the retaining ring. The ring should clip into the groove in the pedal body. Take the body assembly and slide it back onto the spindle making sure the o-ring seats properly. Take the spindle screw and dab a little blue loctite onto the threads and screw it in. Do not use green or red loctite as you will not be able to remove the screw in the future. Tighten to 3.5nm torque which is equal to 30in/lb or 2.5ft/lb. Install the dust cap and grease the pedal with a grease gun. Screw in the grease port screw and you're done!! The pedals will feel slightly stiff to start with but will loosen up after a few miles. New or freshly greased pedals may leak grease for the first few rides which is completely normal.

[Rada]

Sometimes you can't fight the man quite as much as you would like to. So take pleasure in the smaller victory of rebuilding your own (a few friends), saving a bit of $$, and still using your favorite pedals. Win-win situation for both Speedplay and you.

Sure I can fight the man. I do it by turning around and buying from another man.

[salem]

Regarding Speedplay protecting their market, an apt comparison is the auto parts market. Manufacturers would love you to use dealer parts, but anyone (including most independent garages) can purchase aftermarket parts for far less. These are not just standard, off-the-shelf parts that happen to fit (like the Speedplay bearings), but rather reverse engineered items designed for one specific application and advertised as such. The same could be said for shaving razor blade refills and any number of items. If this is legal, and it is, Speedplay is completely out to lunch in their claims.

The one loophole I could see: auto parts usually are sold as "meeting or exceeding OE specification." Speedplay may have a legal right to demand aftermarket parts meet their specification, but if that is the case, they are probably also required to supply this specification. From there, one could compare to the specs for the aftermarket bearings.

Ultimately, this is a case where I support the ideal of a free market. If you provide a better product for less, people will buy it.

[fourflys]

Sure I can fight the man. I do it by turning around and buying from another man.

exactly....

[eddief]

just sold bearings and screws and listed Speedplay as one possible application?

Love my Frogs and not switching, but don't like the idea of a stongarm to the little guy in this situation.

[woolly]

After reading this thread, and part of the WW thread, and looking over the tech docs on the Speedplay site, it seems to me that all the controversy centers around the full disassembly of the X1/X2 pedal body, particularly the removal of the needle bearing from the pedal body. Twice in the X1/X2 instructions, they clearly state (with highlighted text), not to remove the needle bearing from the pedal body - that doing so will cause damage. However, they do provide explicit instructions for maintenance & self-rebuild of the other parts of the X1/X2 pedals (including the other two bearings), and the Frog's (which also use a needle bearing) have no instruction/warning about removing the needle bearing.

So, even though the guy over on the WW thread has been successful in doing so, Speedplay has some reason for not wanting the end-user to take apart the X1/2 pedal body & remove the needle bearing.

Is anybody else coming away with this impression?

While I'm not pleased with how Speedplay is handling the whole situation, the information above doesn't seem consistent with a motivation just to lock down the replacement-part supply chain & reap huge profits for doing so. If that were really the motivation, why would they provide instructions for overhauling the rest of the pedal, or for full-overhaul of the Frog's too? I can't help but speculate that there's some potential safety/liability or product performance issue from the "typical" end-user performing this needle-bearing replacement on the X1/X2. Obviously the WW guy has mastered this, but possibly it's not something Speedplay feels comfortable endorsing for the "average user"?

I'm a long-time Speedplay user - I love my X's & Frog's, and will continue to use them, even though I'm a little off-put by the way they are handling all this. And I'd still like to know the full reasons for their not wanting the entire X pedal to be user-serviceable.

[1centaur]

If consumer safety was Speedplay's overriding concern, they should have

a) written the letter that way

b) posted specific verbiage about such issues on their site

c) contacted the CPSC to suggest a problem.

Instead, they seem to focus on the ability to create a patented item with aftermarket parts, albeit in less than Speedplay-approved form. It's a confused letter, which means either bad lawyers or intentional bluster. I read it several times looking for sincere belief and was left underwhelmed. The one interesting item in the letter was mention of the bowties regarding the OP's operation, when I think he was not selling bowties. I wonder if Speedplay has a problem stopping production of bowties and spindles from others and see the OP's efforts as creating the ability to tie the whole together such that enterprising people could create legitimate competition to "new" Speedplay pedals. If there were no third party spindles and bowties, would it matter so much to them that somebody figured out the screw and bearing realities? Just trying to find logic in the situation.

[pbjbike]

The percentage of intellectual property and patent litigation always goes up when the economy is suffering. Revenues are down, and companies look for loose ends to tie up and ways to stop losing revenue.

SP's patent does not cover bearing design. If they made a unique bearing and manufactured it themselves, and patented it, then they could pursue someone who took the design without compensation, and had it made in China. AFAIK, interfering, (as was done with the ebay listings), with the trade of a competitor who is offering products and service is a case of wrongful interference.

SP's original patent expires next year...

[Cinci Jim]

Could this be an ill guided attempt to head off product liability claims? They are making a good faith effort to stop this business so if someone who serviced their own pedals has a failure/accident - they can show in the product liability case that follows they tried to stop this business?

[William]

Could this be an ill guided attempt to head off product liability claims? They are making a good faith effort to stop this business so if someone who serviced their own pedals has a failure/accident - they can show in the product liability case that follows they tried to stop this business?


In that case, couldn't they just say that the use of any rebuild kit not made by themselves (SP) is not endorsed or waranteed and therefore they have no responsibility or liability by a pedal owners use of non OEM aftermarket parts?

Just askin'



William

[jbrainin]

I think this is mostly about liability and their lawyer's desire to preclude them from being included in a lawsuit if these modified pedals should fail. It's heavy handed but likely more effective in the event of a lawsuit than a mere warning/disclaimer.

[woolly]

In that case, couldn't they just say that the use of any rebuild kit not made by themselves (SP) is not endorsed or waranteed and therefore they have no responsibility or liability by a pedal owners use of non OEM aftermarket parts?

Just askin'



William

It appears to me that they don't want you jacking with the body & needle-bearings yourself - doesn't matter whether it's aftermarket or OEM. The two rebuild kits I found for the X pedals both had the needle bearings pre-installed (one was a full rebuild kit, and the other a "body kit" that comes with the pre-installed needle bearings, but no cartridge bearings). The Frog kit, on the other hand, come with the full set of user-installable bearings (needle bearing included).

I'll state again that I think the way the company is handling this is bullcrap.

[BumbleBeeDave]

So, even though the guy over on the WW thread has been successful in doing so, Speedplay has some reason for not wanting the end-user to take apart the X1/2 pedal body & remove the needle bearing.

Of course they have a reason . . . their reason is they want you to pay THEM to do it for you--at an inflated price--or they want you to throw away your "worn out" pedals and buy a new pair.

Either way, it's all about the $$ . . . that go in THEIR pocket.

BBD

[r_mutt]

there are so many business that engage in nefarious practices, i'm amazed that this one has managed to raise the ire of so many people. pick out any large company, and really look at how they do business, i'll bet you could find actions that are shocking and completely reprehensible- real ones like slave wages, mistreatment of animals, poisoning of local drinking water, etc.

instead, we have people complaining and boycotting company that makes pedals, because they don't want you mucking about with the internals and selling it. is it heavy-handed? sure. are they right? probably not, but i'd rather find bigger fish to fry.

[William]

there are so many business that engage in nefarious practices, i'm amazed that this one has managed to raise the ire of so many people. pick out any large company, and really look at how they do business, i'll bet you could find many immoral actions that are shocking- real ones like slave wages, mistreatment of animals, poisoning of local drinking water, etc.

instead, we have people complaining about company that makes pedals, that doesn't want you mucking about with the internals and selling it. i'd rather find bigger fish to fry.


All very true. But this is a bike forum so it's on topic and relevant for this little corner of the world. So what?



William

[toaster]

This sounds like a recipe to rebuild or copy an existing design.

[Blue Jays]

"...we have people complaining and boycotting company that makes pedals, because they don't want you mucking about with the internals and selling it.
is it heavy-handed? sure. are they right? probably not, but i'd rather find bigger fish to fry..."Finding bigger fish to fry is precisely what the Speedplay folks should be thinking.
Constantly improve designs, maximize marketshare, and sell more pedals. What is so hard about that concept?
Heck, hire this rebuilder guy as a full-time employee and offer rebuilds at a modest cost.
They require an alternate approach to their concerns that don't alienate their target audience.

[djg21]

From Callmann on Unfair Competition, Trademarks and Monopolies (4th Edition 2010):

Manufacturers are entitled to make replacement parts (and accessories) for products manufactured by others, provided, of course, such parts are not patented. Being so entitled, they are also permitted to announce the fact that their wares are intended as spares or replacements for the main product. In other words, “it is lawful for one manufacturer to call attention to the fact that the repair or renewal parts as made by him will fit into the commodity which is manufactured by another.” The analysis of comparative advertising of alternative products has guided courts dealing with advertising of compatible services and parts:

"The part-manufacturer is, therefore, entitled to protection against the prime manufacturer's quite natural desire to draw into itself, if possible, the exclusive right of furnishing repair parts to its [possibly] patented machines. The consummation of this purpose, however, no matter how natural on the part of complainant, or how devoutly wished, would, in the end, result in the upbuilding of such monopolies in trade and business as would not be welcomed by the purchasing public."

Conversely, however, the manufacturer of the main product is entitled to protection against the inferior quality of spare parts made by another and intended for use in that product. Therefore, subject to the limitation that the prime manufacturer may not falsely disparage its competitor's product, the original manufacturer can resort to publicizing a caveat against the use of substitutes offered by others not under its supervision or control. But attempts to force one's customers to buy spare parts from only the prime manufacturer may constitute an illicit tie-in under the antitrust laws.(internal citations omitted).

I haven't read the "offending" letter, but Speedplay has significant interests in insuring the quality of parts used to service its pedals, and the quality of the repair service itself. In addition, a participant in a secondary repair market could easily infringe on Speedplay's trademarks by creating a likelihood of consumer confusion as to source of origin or endorsement

There are lots of ways to skin a cat, and it seems like Speedplay may have been overly aggressive, but a stern letter of some sort may have been appropriate.

[Charles M]

[great edit above means changing my post]




This guy was selling bearings already available through multiple sources that are plug in replacements that seem to have lasted longer than Speedplay OE...

[John H.]

Doesn't Speedply have a hard-on for the guy making aftemarket Speedplay spindles too? He makes Ti Speedplay spindles for less than $60-
He can't advertise them or put them on e-bay.

[peanutgallery]

Fantasy on the part of Speedplay, 2 or 3 hours of legal services would bury their cash flow. The letter was all they could afford, I would insist that they follow thru with their threats

[nahtnoj]

I have a pair of 8 year old Shimano XTR pedals. I think I greased them once about 3 years ago. They've easily been ridden 15,000 to 20,000 miles, mostly commuting and off road.

Seems a better business model for Shimano would be to make a pedal with crappy durability, charge an arm and a leg for replacement parts, and shut down the aftermarket parts supply. They can surely afford the lawyers to make it happen.

[Ahneida Ride]

White Ind. did not complain when I replace their bearings with Ceramic ones.

Actually .... many web site tell you the exact bearings to use.

[RPS]

Yep

You should have read the letter and the other posts...



This guy was selling bearings already available through multiple sources that are plug in replacements that seem to have lasted longer than Speedplay OE...
This is a very interesting thread in that almost everyone sides against SP without there being much hard evidence to support their claims are wrong. Is it possible replacements parts are inferior and therefore damage SP’s reputation? One guy says no, but he’s the one selling the parts. Why should anyone assume he’s right without corroboration? :confused:

I honestly don’t know who is right. What I don’t get is how essentially everyone seems to come to the conclusion that Speedplay’s argument has no merit when we have relatively little information to compare.

Although Speedplay is a very small company, I can’t help but think that much of this thread is being driven by “little guy good, big company bad” sentiments.



For what it’s worth, I don’t ride or own Speedplays, so I don’t have a dog on either side of this fight. I ride Shimano’s and don’t rebuild them.

[rice rocket]

Whether they last longer or not, aftermarket parts are not illegal. There is PLENTY of legal precedent set about this, mostly from the auto parts industry.

Speedplay can shove it.

[bikemoore]

Yeah, he can fight the man by changing pedals....and pay over $1K for new pedals and cleats for all his bikes and wind up using pedals that he doesn't like as well as the Speedplays. All because they won't allow him to sell rebuild kits / services without their approval? What kind of "victory" is that? I think "da man" ultimately wins that one. Better to make a partial retreat and enjoy the smaller victory.

[William]

... Is it possible replacements parts are inferior and therefore damage SP’s reputation? One guy says no, but he’s the one selling the parts. Why should anyone assume he’s right without corroboration? .....

McMaster-Carr ABEC Ball Bearing tolerances. All bearings meet ABEC standards.” Dynamic Radial Load Capacity Range, lbs. = Radial load refers to a load that's perpendicular to the shaft that a bearing can withstand for one million revolutions”.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#about-ball-bearings/=aq6k6h
http://www.mcmaster.com/#ball-and-roller-bearings/=aq6mrp
http://www.mcmaster.com/#ball-and-roller-bearings/=aq6n88

If he’s buying them from McMaster-Carr as stated, they are more than adequate if he’s using bearings with the correct ABEC rating for the weights involved. I know he listed part numbers somewhere along the line but I haven’t gone back to look them up yet. If what he stated is true regarding parts used and length of time they have held up, I would think that he’s pretty much nailed it with workable lasting parts.





William

[BumbleBeeDave]

I honestly don’t know who is right. What I don’t get is how essentially everyone seems to come to the conclusion that Speedplay’s argument has no merit when we have relatively little information to compare.


Somebody at Speedplay has got to know by this time that all of this is swirling around the Internet. This is not the only board where such discussion and associated brand rep damage is taking place.

Yet there is no sign that they have made any kind of response to anyone about it. They are simply compounding the impression they don't care about their customers by essentially ignoring them. If Speedplay is indeed not a huge company, then they have a limited customer base and this response--or lack of it--is the worst thing they can do. They are acting like a big company that's essentially saying "Eff YOU!" to some of their best repeat customers.

Another thing that rubs me the wrong way about this is that judging from a fair number of responses here and on WW, the parts this guy is supplying--which he is obtaining from the same sources Speedplay could if they wanted to --are in fact higher spec and better parts than OEM, judging by how quickly some of the SP OEM parts wear out.

This just makes me wonder why Speedplay doesn't spec better parts that will last longer? This in turn makes my cynical consumer mind speculate that by speccing cheaper parts up front they save money and increase profit AND now they are using strong arm tactics to preserve their own rebuild business at inflated prices which in turn makes them MORE profits. Pretty neat business model--based on no concern for the customer or the customer's ultimate safety because these cheaper originally parts could fail quicker and lead to safety concerns.

I doubt I'm the only customer to be thinking this, either. Yet SP is doing nothing to head off brand damage like this. It just makes them look even worse--like bullies, profiteers, AND marketing idiots.

BBD

[kohlboto]

This is a great thread and it has really got me thinking about the company and its practices. I'll add to this by relating my very recent experience with their customer service. I purchased two sets of shorter SS spindles (one used set and one new set) from a seller on Ebay. When they arrived, I noticed there were two features not normally found on their spindles: 1. four flat spots for the pedal wrench rather than two and 2. a extra groove/channel on the spindle.
I snapped a few pics and emailed Speedplay asking if they were the real deal. I received an email response asking to contact them by phone, which i thought was odd. Regardless, I phoned and was told two things: A. They are Speedplay spindles (the features are for ID purposes) and B. They are damaged...the bearings won't sit properly and will result in further bearing damage if I use them...
So, in light of all this and other discussion around the inter-web, I am thinking I should be skeptical about Speedplay's motives in responding to my query. I love their pedals but I am really leery of their advice...

[RPS]

McMaster-Carr ABEC Ball Bearing tolerances. All bearings meet ABEC standards.” Dynamic Radial Load Capacity Range, lbs. = Radial load refers to a load that's perpendicular to the shaft that a bearing can withstand for one million revolutions”.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#about-ball-bearings/=aq6k6h
http://www.mcmaster.com/#ball-and-roller-bearings/=aq6mrp
http://www.mcmaster.com/#ball-and-roller-bearings/=aq6n88

If he’s buying them from McMaster-Carr as stated, they are more than adequate if he’s using bearings with the correct ABEC rating for the weights involved. I know he listed part numbers somewhere along the line but I haven’t gone back to look them up yet. If what he stated is true regarding parts used and length of time they have held up, I would think that he’s pretty much nailed it with workable lasting parts.





William
My point is that your conviction of Speedplay is based on a lot of ifs. Maybe the “IFS” are right, and maybe there is more to this dispute than we know, or can know.

What I do know for a fact is that both sides in this dispute have vested interests to spin the argument in their favor. I also know that companies in general can’t go after the little guy – even when it’s justified -- in the same way because they will seem even more so of a bully.



Regarding your bearing data; this reminds me of the Firestone tire and Ford Explorer arguments. Firestones met all standard tire requirements and were “essentially” safe in other products that could handle a blowout. Ford Explorers were without a doubt a poor design, but when equipped with superior tires like Michelins that didn’t fail in significant numbers the Explorer was mostly OK for most drivers. However, when aggressive drivers, poor tire maintenance, poor vehicle design, and less than great tires were combined, the results were ugly.

There’s got to be more to this dispute.

[RPS]

Somebody at Speedplay has got to know by this time that all of this is swirling around the Internet. This is not the only board where such discussion and associated brand rep damage is taking place.

....snipped.......

I doubt I'm the only customer to be thinking this, either. Yet SP is doing nothing to head off brand damage like this. It just makes them look even worse--like bullies, profiteers, AND marketing idiots.

BBD
One of the worse things about the Internet is that anyone can essentially blackmail or at least strong-arm a company by making wrongful accusations in such a way that if the company responds they will seem like real jerks.

Whether this is the case here or not I don’t know. IMHO regardless of how right and justified SP “MAY” be, if they come out and counter attack this guy to defend themselves they will do themselves even more harm. In the eyes of the Internet and popular opinion which is normally biased against companies, being right has little to do with anything. I find that sad but feel it’s the truth.

Don’t we see accusations against Serotta here all the time trying to get them to do something for free? In a way it works more effectively against smaller companies with limited markets. If a person accused Ford of treating them poorly no one would pay attention because there are literally millions of customers. If someone says Serotta screwed them over and posted here they would at least have an audience. :(

[Lifelover]

Joe,

Send me a PM with the full instrucitons and also the part number and sources for the parts.

I will post it and various cycling forums a few times a year under multiple screen names.

Maybe I'll even buy the parts and resell them on ebay.

[Charles M]

My point is that your conviction of Speedplay is based on a lot of ifs. Maybe the “IFS” are right, and maybe there is more to this dispute than we know, or can know.

What I do know for a fact is that both sides in this dispute have vested interests to spin the argument in their favor. I also know that companies in general can’t go after the little guy – even when it’s justified -- in the same way because they will seem even more so of a bully.



Regarding your bearing data; this reminds me of the Firestone tire and Ford Explorer arguments. Firestones met all standard tire requirements and were “essentially” safe in other products that could handle a blowout. Ford Explorers were without a doubt a poor design, but when equipped with superior tires like Michelins that didn’t fail in significant numbers the Explorer was mostly OK for most drivers. However, when aggressive drivers, poor tire maintenance, poor vehicle design, and less than great tires were combined, the results were ugly.

There’s got to be more to this dispute.



There really doesn't have to be... (there could be, but digging deeper doesnt leave loads of room)



In short, Speedplay to not regulate or set applicable standards for bearings. They can choose a standard to use and sell, but they dont establish the standards

Speedplay use a level of Bearing (for example, Speedplay OE branded are NBK 68 series for the X1-2) and those bearings meet standards. If the bearings being resold buy others meet or exceed that standard, there's not much more to this...


I wouldn’t be at all bothered if someone was knocking off patented designs with poorer quality materials, but this isn't that.

Heck, I wouldn’t be upset if the person were selling much higher quality parts.


An example would be that it seems like a harder cleat base plate material would be advisable because as that material wears down it allows for loss of stability and sloppy play in the pedal. But that would also mean that the ring that locks speedplays in to place on some models would go a lot longer before replacement.

There's not much safety issue when the plate wears and warns you of the need to replace, but it that plate were much more durable the locking ring could fail and have you out of your shoe in a nasty way. So there is a reason you want some things to wear down before others.


Bearings and seals don’t seem to fit that description and that's driven home by the fact that Speedplay also sell bearing kits as stand alone items.

[eddief]

for sale, pedal rebuild parts. none of these is a spare part authorized by a pedal manufacturer. it just so happens, i have spent the last few years sourcing, testing, and rebuilding used sets of pedals and have successfully installed these parts in the rebuild process.

these parts could void original warranty, actually piss off the manfufacturer, so please order them and install them at your own risk.

so far these seem work well on road bike pedals in the shape of a little round candy sucker.

subtitute Speedplay, lollipop, with little round candy sucker.

[scrubadub]

One of the worse things about the Internet is that anyone can essentially blackmail or at least strong-arm a company by making wrongful accusations in such a way that if the company responds they will seem like real jerks.

Whether this is the case here or not I don’t know. IMHO regardless of how right and justified SP “MAY” be, if they come out and counter attack this guy to defend themselves they will do themselves even more harm. In the eyes of the Internet and popular opinion which is normally biased against companies, being right has little to do with anything. I find that sad but feel it’s the truth.

Don’t we see accusations against Serotta here all the time trying to get them to do something for free? In a way it works more effectively against smaller companies with limited markets. If a person accused Ford of treating them poorly no one would pay attention because there are literally millions of customers. If someone says Serotta screwed them over and posted here they would at least have an audience. :(

This is part of the shift in advertising/customer service/management that has come with social media. I disagree that a company posting a response would necessarily hurt them. IMO, companies which maintain an active web presence and respond quickly to customers enjoy a lot of goodwill. The expectation these days, for better or worse, is that customer concerns will get addressed quickly. It doesn't have to be on every single forum, but maintaining an active presence on one or two forums/social media outlets can reap a lot of benefits.

For example, Emilio DeSoto, a tri clothing/equipment maker, is very active on the Slowtwitch forums. To the point that anytime anyone has a concern, you can expect a response shortly along the lines of "call me, we'll take care of it". That creates a lot of good will and reputation around the company. Pro-active marketing and public customer service goes a long way to shield your company from blackmail and ill will.

If I were SP, I'd jump in on one of these forums and start responding. Even if it's to state an official position, or maybe better yet, apologize, that would help a lot. Whether you like it or not, silence is no longer an option... but a lot of companies haven't figured that out yet.

[Pete Serotta]

SP and most companies do not want the legal liability potential to their pedals if there is an accident or mishap. Folks who bought components would consider a failure and injury to still be a SP responsibility

Folks/lawyers sue the ones with the deepest pocket.


ie

Someone buys speedplay pedals and then they rebuild them with items not purchased from speedplay Who is liable for a failure? (I bet Speedplay would receive a complaint.) Speedplay I will bet a beer on it trying to limit this potential exposure

Some one sells the platforms and the internals - that can build a pedal that looks like a speedplay and operates very similar if not the same - It is not a SP and should have another name - If it looks and operates like a speedplay I would consider it a patent and trademark exposure and a cease and desist would be considered.

Looking at things I would buy new pedals or have them done by SP. for me my peace of mind is better and the price spread out over a fews years is no more that a 6 pack or even less than a top tier tire :confused:

THat is just me for I also replace my helmet every 3 years....many folks don't, but based on how they are made and material used - I want max protection.

Please no personal attacks on folks - I do not want to be a hard ass on closing, deleting, or banning.

THANKS PETE

[benb]

I'm amazed anyone can defend speedplay here given the law seems to indicate this guy is in the clear.

But what really makes it nuts is clearly speedplay is producing a very inferior product and has been getting away with it, and buyers have been enabling this behavior by paying an outrageous price for a rebuild. $125? That's completely insane, I had the shock on my MTB tuned & rebuilt for less then that a year ago.

It blows my mind.. I tried speedplays once many years ago and did not like them, so I did not know they wear out so quickly... the concept of having to quickly and periodically rebuild pedals is laughable.

Is this just because they made the spindle so undersized so the bearings are too small to be durable without them buying more expensive higher quality bearings?

I mean literally.. I have every pair of pedals I've ever bought, none have ever gotten a lick of maintenance other then being cleaned when the rest of the bike is cleaned, and all of those pedals are still working perfectly ~10 years later. (Mostly shimano, but I also have a pair of Trek/Icon pedals that are fine 10 years after they were purchased.) Most of these pedals have seen winter snow/salt use as well with no special care taken in cleaning.

Note to self not to bother looking at any of their pedals if I decide to change for the purpose of trying something new.

Bike manufacturers are nuts if they think they can go down the same path as the auto companies and try to stop home mechanics from fixing their bikes.

I don't know why anyone would say badmouthing Speedplay would be akin to badmouthing Serotta in this forum.. folks don't badmouth Serotta because Serotta does not build products that are faulty enough in initial design that they wear out prematurely. Heck no one seems to badmouth Serotta anywhere on the internet (other then griping because they can't afford them) precisely because they build quality bikes designed to last.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm amazed anyone can defend speedplay here given the law seems to indicate this guy is in the clear.

But what really makes it nuts is clearly speedplay is producing a very inferior product and has been getting away with it, and buyers have been enabling this behavior by paying an outrageous price for a rebuild. $125? That's completely insane, I had the shock on my MTB tuned & rebuilt for less then that a year ago.

It blows my mind.. I tried speedplays once many years ago and did not like them, so I did not know they wear out so quickly... the concept of having to quickly and periodically rebuild pedals is laughable.

Is this just because they made the spindle so undersized so the bearings are too small to be durable without them buying more expensive higher quality bearings?

I mean literally.. I have every pair of pedals I've ever bought, none have ever gotten a lick of maintenance other then being cleaned when the rest of the bike is cleaned, and all of those pedals are still working perfectly ~10 years later. (Mostly shimano, but I also have a pair of Trek/Icon pedals that are fine 10 years after they were purchased.) Most of these pedals have seen winter snow/salt use as well with no special care taken in cleaning.

Note to self not to bother looking at any of their pedals if I decide to change for the purpose of trying something new.

Bike manufacturers are nuts if they think they can go down the same path as the auto companies and try to stop home mechanics from fixing their bikes.

I don't know why anyone would say badmouthing Speedplay would be akin to badmouthing Serotta in this forum.. folks don't badmouth Serotta because Serotta does not build products that are faulty enough in initial design that they wear out prematurely. Heck no one seems to badmouth Serotta anywhere on the internet (other then griping because they can't afford them) precisely because they build quality bikes designed to last.

'Clearly'? Because of what you read on bike forums?

$70 for a Zero rebuild kit, both pedals. I have never seen the wee bearings on the end needing to be changed.

Kill a bearing or fall and kill one pedal on your Looks/shimano and see how easy or hard it is to get a replacement spindle/bearing or one pedal.

They don't 'wear out quickly', I have been using mine for about 25,000 miles and I have overhauled them, changed the cleats, that's all. Have not changed any of the parts.

The ones you tried were probably X series, Zero much different.

It's easy to service SP, even at home by home mechanics. Torx wrench is all that's needed.

If you don't like them, and don't like the take on this and other forums about what is perceived as the 'strong arm tactics' of SP, then don't buy them. But most of your statements about the pedal itself are innaccurate.

[oldpotatoe]

[/QUOTE]

Pez included in his post-"An example would be that it seems like a harder cleat base plate material would be advisable because as that material wears down it allows for loss of stability and sloppy play in the pedal. But that would also mean that the ring that locks speedplays in to place on some models would go a lot longer before replacement.

I responded"What wears are the bowties, not the metal plate that covers the cleat(unlike all other cleats that are plastic and wear much faster). Bowties are available as a small part as is the spring in the cleat.

I have never needed to replace the cleat spring NOR the bowties on my zeros, about 25,000 miles, about 5 years.

If this whole thing about SP's 'tactics' is too continue, then I think it's important to separate the 'facts' about the pedals and the politics of what's going on with this guy trying to make small parts for SP pedals.

They DON'T wear out quickly, they are NOT prone to failure. They don't cost $125 to rebuild. Being able to overhaul and replace small parts in the pedal is an advantage, not diadvantage(kill a bearing on your LOOK pedals and try to buy one spindle, fall and kill a pedal and try to buy one LOOK or shimano pedal).

Most posts seem to mix the pedal 'performance', even tho many haven't used them, with SP viewing this as a threat, and their resulting, as reported on the interweb, tactics.

[fourflys]

They don't 'wear out quickly', I have been using mine for about 25,000 miles and I have overhauled them, changed the cleats, that's all. Have not changed any of the parts.



Peter,
you are the first one to actually say how long these pedals last without a rebuild... I asked this a while back and never got a response, thank you...

I tried SP last year and just couldn't get comfortable getting clipped into them, so I went back to my Shimano...

My only comment about this whole thing was it seemed kind of silly from my POV that SP would go after this guy IF his side was accurate and he only rebuilt a few sets a month... of course there are always 3 sides to any story... my side, your side, and the truth... ;)

[William]

I made no comment on the longevity of the pedals themselves. As I stated I have used them since about 95 or so and they work for me. I have had no issues with what I would feel is premature failure in any of the sets I still have. My comment was directed at possible strong arm tactics. If the story turns out to be true, I will look at alternatives such as Bebop, and if I like them I will switch.

I will admit that there are other sides to the story. I felt that the originators story rang true so I gave it some weight. He sited part numbers from legitimate sources who sell rated industrial parts that meet stresses a pedal would never likely come close meeting. I come up with ways to fix and create things all the time so I can relate to that. There are threads on the forum all the time that describe different ways to make things work or alternatives that can be used that aren't OEM. Maybe a dumb example but I will throw it out there anyway: Do you think Campy or Shimano is happy that there are some folks mixing gruppo parts? Will they warranty a Shimano derailleur if you use it in conjunction with a Campy cog set? It wasn't designed to be used in that manner and if you go around internet forums telling people how to do it are you now open to libel? If someone designs a part that allows one to be used with the other easily, are they open to attack?

As far as selling his fix and using the Speedplay name, I can understand the company not wanting their name associated with it or used to sell it. Protect the name: I get that. But as far as telling the man he can't tell or show others how to fix them using rated readily available parts is asinine IMO. Of course SP would/should have no responsibility to anyone who used such a home made kit on their products. I think it has been established across many products and industries that if you use non-recommended/non-official replacement parts on certain products you are SOL if they don't work or it results in personal injury.

Distance themselves - yes.

Protect the name - yes.

No responsibility/warranty for using non-OEM parts - Yes.

Going after this guy for coming up with a workable alternative from readlily purchased parts - Seems silly.





William

[BumbleBeeDave]

If I were SP, I'd jump in on one of these forums and start responding. Even if it's to state an official position, or maybe better yet, apologize, that would help a lot. Whether you like it or not, silence is no longer an option... but a lot of companies haven't figured that out yet.

They are totally shooting themselves in the foot by NOT responding. Any company that ignores social media in his day and age does so at their own business peril.

BBD

[Pete Serotta]

If you do not like a pedal or a mft - - do not buy from them. I have been using them for about 10 years and have no complaints. They work for me and are also sold by LBS that I respect and trust.

LAW is an interpretation of things written or passed by others - and thus the reason why there are lawyers and judgements in many areas now.

I listed some potential exposures the mft has with this company or after product. I have never seem them not have I have personal experience with premature wear :confused:

No - no one is bad mouthing SEROTTA but many of the items on SP are stated...there is no need to restate or attack others views/


Everyone, please stop all the opinions if you have already stated your view.


THANKS Pete







I'm amazed anyone can defend speedplay here given the law seems to indicate this guy is in the clear.

But what really makes it nuts is clearly speedplay is producing a very inferior product and has been getting away with it, and buyers have been enabling this behavior by paying an outrageous price for a rebuild. $125? That's completely insane, I had the shock on my MTB tuned & rebuilt for less then that a year ago.

It blows my mind.. I tried speedplays once many years ago and did not like them, so I did not know they wear out so quickly... the concept of having to quickly and periodically rebuild pedals is laughable.

Is this just because they made the spindle so undersized so the bearings are too small to be durable without them buying more expensive higher quality bearings?

I mean literally.. I have every pair of pedals I've ever bought, none have ever gotten a lick of maintenance other then being cleaned when the rest of the bike is cleaned, and all of those pedals are still working perfectly ~10 years later. (Mostly shimano, but I also have a pair of Trek/Icon pedals that are fine 10 years after they were purchased.) Most of these pedals have seen winter snow/salt use as well with no special care taken in cleaning.

Note to self not to bother looking at any of their pedals if I decide to change for the purpose of trying something new.

Bike manufacturers are nuts if they think they can go down the same path as the auto companies and try to stop home mechanics from fixing their bikes.

I don't know why anyone would say badmouthing Speedplay would be akin to badmouthing Serotta in this forum.. folks don't badmouth Serotta because Serotta does not build products that are faulty enough in initial design that they wear out prematurely. Heck no one seems to badmouth Serotta anywhere on the internet (other then griping because they can't afford them) precisely because they build quality bikes designed to last.

[oldpotatoe]

If you do not like a pedal or a mft - - do not buy from them. I have been using them for about 10 years and have no complaints. They work for me and are also sold by LBS that I respect and trust.

LAW is an interpretation of things written or passed by others - and thus the reason why there are lawyers and judgements in many areas now.

I listed some potential exposures the mft has with this company or after product. I have never seem them not have I have personal experience with premature wear :confused:

No - no one is bad mouthing SEROTTA but many of the items on SP are stated...there is no need to restate or attack others views/


Everyone, please stop all the opinions if you have already stated your view.


THANKS Pete

Well said, I guess that's why you sit in the big chair..well done.

[Dekonick]

I made no comment on the longevity of the pedals themselves. As I stated I have used them since about 95 or so and they work for me. I have had no issues with what I would feel is premature failure in any of the sets I still have. My comment was directed at possible strong arm tactics. If the story turns out to be true, I will look at alternatives such as Bebop, and if I like them I will switch.

I will admit that there are other sides to the story. I felt that the originators story rang true so I gave it some weight. He sited part numbers from legitimate sources who sell rated industrial parts that meet stresses a pedal would never likely come close meeting. I come up with ways to fix and create things all the time so I can relate to that. There are threads on the forum all the time that describe different ways to make things work or alternatives that can be used that aren't OEM. Maybe a dumb example but I will throw it out there anyway: Do you think Campy or Shimano is happy that there are some folks mixing gruppo parts? Will they warranty a Shimano derailleur if you use it in conjunction with a Campy cog set? It wasn't designed to be used in that manner and if you go around internet forums telling people how to do it are you now open to libel? If someone designs a part that allows one to be used with the other easily, are they open to attack?

As far as selling his fix and using the Speedplay name, I can understand the company not wanting their name associated with it or used to sell it. Protect the name: I get that. But as far as telling the man he can't tell or show others how to fix them using rated readily available parts is asinine IMO. Of course SP would/should have no responsibility to anyone who used such a home made kit on their products. I think it has been established across many products and industries that if you use non-recommended/non-official replacement parts on certain products you are SOL if they don't work or it results in personal injury.

Distance themselves - yes.

Protect the name - yes.

No responsibility/warranty for using non-OEM parts - Yes.

Going after this guy for coming up with a workable alternative from readlily purchased parts - Seems silly.





William

A wise squirrel once said - NEVER argue with William!

[eddief]

This is their response and my original. Not sure if the link to the pdf will work, but it was an image of the ebay auction which had great detail about the step by step rebuild process. I think cool to sell the parts, but not sure about my comfort with the incredible detailed rebuild instructions being included in the auction description...and I do mean detailed!

Dear Eddie Flayer,

Thank you for your email message. We value your opinion and concerns. Unfortunately, we are unable to post a response to comments on the internet related to legal matters. However, please see the information attached to this email and the following links:


http://www.speedplay.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.zerofaqs#na70

http://www.speedplay.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.lightactionfaqs#na71

http://www.speedplay.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.xfaqs#na68

http://www.speedplay.com/pubs/instructions/ZEROSystemInstructions20100713.pdf

http://www.speedplay.com/pubs/instructions/LightActionSStiSystemInstructions20100504.pdf

http://www.speedplay.com/pubs/instructions/X1-X2SystemInstructions2010914.pdf

We hope this will address your concerns and provide answers to your questions. We appreciate the support you have shown to Speedplay in the past and hope you will consider doing so again in the future.

Sincerely,

Speedplay, Inc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "eddie flayer" <eddie.flayer@att.net>
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 5:01 PM
To: email@speedplay.com
Subject: your reputation is suffering on the internet

You might want to check out the thread on the Serotta forum.

Bad news travels fast and you ought to cover your butts.

Eddie Flayer
Berkeley, CA

frikinspit_safety_issues.pdf

[Charles M]

Interesting

This is their response and my original. Not sure if the link to the pdf will work, but it was an image of the ebay auction which had great detail about the step by step rebuild process. I think cool to sell the parts, but not sure about my comfort with the incredible detailed rebuild instructions being included in the auction description...and I do mean detailed!

Dear Eddie Flayer,

Thank you for your email message. We value your opinion and concerns. Unfortunately, we are unable to post a response to comments on the internet related to legal matters. However, please see the information attached to this email and the following links:


http://www.speedplay.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.zerofaqs#na70

http://www.speedplay.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.lightactionfaqs#na71

http://www.speedplay.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.xfaqs#na68

http://www.speedplay.com/pubs/instructions/ZEROSystemInstructions20100713.pdf

http://www.speedplay.com/pubs/instructions/LightActionSStiSystemInstructions20100504.pdf

http://www.speedplay.com/pubs/instructions/X1-X2SystemInstructions2010914.pdf

We hope this will address your concerns and provide answers to your questions. We appreciate the support you have shown to Speedplay in the past and hope you will consider doing so again in the future.

Sincerely,

Speedplay, Inc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "eddie flayer" <eddie.flayer@att.net>
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 5:01 PM
To: email@speedplay.com
Subject: your reputation is suffering on the internet

You might want to check out the thread on the Serotta forum.

Bad news travels fast and you ought to cover your butts.

Eddie Flayer
Berkeley, CA

frikinspit_safety_issues.pdf

[pbjbike]

Here's the part where SP needs some real legal help:

"The needle bearings used in Speedplay Zero Pedal Systems are [permanently] bonded in place and cannot be removed from the pedal without damage to the components. Attempting to remove and replace the needle bearings in Zero pedals [may cause damage which could result in severe bodily injury]."

Wow-ha, now it's a contact sport, [edit markers seen above].

One must wonder how bearing replacement can be done within the confines of the OM???

The countdown to the 2002 patent expiration continues.

[DRietz]

Waitwaitwait. Speedplay says that removing their bearings is dangerous, yet they offer replacement sets anyway? D'uhhhhh...

http://www.chaobell.net/newgallery/d/2110-1/14xl63c.jpg

[jasond]

I received the same response.

This is their response and my original. Not sure if the link to the pdf will work, but it was an image of the ebay auction which had great detail about the step by step rebuild process. I think cool to sell the parts, but not sure about my comfort with the incredible detailed rebuild instructions being included in the auction description...and I do mean detailed!

Dear Eddie Flayer,

Thank you for your email message. We value your opinion and concerns. Unfortunately, we are unable to post a response to comments on the internet related to legal matters. However, please see the information attached to this email and the following links:


http://www.speedplay.com/index.cfm?...e.zerofaqs#na70

http://www.speedplay.com/index.cfm?...actionfaqs#na71

http://www.speedplay.com/index.cfm?...home.xfaqs#na68

http://www.speedplay.com/pubs/instr...ons20100713.pdf

http://www.speedplay.com/pubs/instr...ons20100504.pdf

http://www.speedplay.com/pubs/instr...ions2010914.pdf

We hope this will address your concerns and provide answers to your questions. We appreciate the support you have shown to Speedplay in the past and hope you will consider doing so again in the future.

Sincerely,

Speedplay, Inc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "eddie flayer" <eddie.flayer@att.net>
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 5:01 PM
To: email@speedplay.com
Subject: your reputation is suffering on the internet

You might want to check out the thread on the Serotta forum.

Bad news travels fast and you ought to cover your butts.

Eddie Flayer
Berkeley, CA

frikinspit_safety_issues.pdf

[bkboom123]

after reading all these speedplay threads, I really cant believe their are so many parts involved in their pedal system.....It seems like nothing when looking at them, just a hunk of plastic.

either way, they are asses.....I am pretty sure that another company thrives on the idea that you can rebuild the components....Campy

[Charles M]

Pez included in his post-"An example would be that it seems like a harder cleat base plate material would be advisable because as that material wears down it allows for loss of stability and sloppy play in the pedal. But that would also mean that the ring that locks speedplays in to place on some models would go a lot longer before replacement.

I responded"What wears are the bowties, not the metal plate that covers the cleat(unlike all other cleats that are plastic and wear much faster). Bowties are available as a small part as is the spring in the cleat.

I have never needed to replace the cleat spring NOR the bowties on my zeros, about 25,000 miles, about 5 years.

If this whole thing about SP's 'tactics' is too continue, then I think it's important to separate the 'facts' about the pedals and the politics of what's going on with this guy trying to make small parts for SP pedals.

They DON'T wear out quickly, they are NOT prone to failure. They don't cost $125 to rebuild. Being able to overhaul and replace small parts in the pedal is an advantage, not diadvantage(kill a bearing on your LOOK pedals and try to buy one spindle, fall and kill a pedal and try to buy one LOOK or shimano pedal).

Most posts seem to mix the pedal 'performance', even tho many haven't used them, with SP viewing this as a threat, and their resulting, as reported on the interweb, tactics.






You're taking my words and running with them... You're also not calling the Speed play product by its proper name (though I agree the bowties and pedal bodies wear too and they dont wear out overly fast).



The base plate Is in fact plastic... It's actually called "Plastic Base Plate"...

you can have a refresher here. http://www.speedplay.com/pubs/instructions/LightActionCleatSetInstructions20100504.pdf


And I'm not saying or implying that the base plate is the only (or primary) thing that wears down.

My point was very simply an example that some wear parts are wear parts for a good reason.



I also don't think that my personal experience with things eliminates the possibility for other people to have different experiences.

Case in point, I have broken the spring in Speed play pedals after ignoring the wear and replacing the base plate but not the rest of the cleat...



For those that don't know, the "Base plate" and "spring housing" are plastic... (Shown Green arrows)


http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/spcleat.jpg
The spring is noted redline.

I could be wrong but I don't think Speed play sell the spring alone (at least not common retail). I believe it's a part of the total cleat replacement including its housing. And Speed play are smart for doing that. The plastic base and the edges of the spring retainer housing should wear quicker than the spring.



If there was one thing you wanted to run off with / take out of context, it probably should not have been the part where I agree with you that Speedplay have a well designed product...


And you're right. It doesnt cost 120 to rebuild... For parts alone;
It cost $100 for the rebuild kit for Zero SS and chromo parts
It costs $140 for the Ti rebuild kit parts...
It cost $70 for the X series rebuild pack and $40 for the bow ties.
http://www.excelsports.com/main.asp?page=7&major=5&minor=6
labor not included, but the fact that none of the higher or lower price points might equal exactly $120 is precision hair splitting on the wrong head... This isnt about bow ties, bodies full rebuilds...






If this whole thing about SP's 'tactics' is too continue, then I think it's important to separate the 'facts' about the pedals and the politics of what's going on with this guy trying to make small parts for SP pedals.



I agree... We should really pay attention to "the facts"

The main one being: The guy wasn't "making" any parts.



In fact, Speedplay don't make the bearings they package and sell either. Like the OP they selected a grade of bearing (available from many many sources), buy them and resell em.

Neither he nor Speedplay have a patent on the bearings that either of them were buying and reselling... And because speedplay were not using them in any sort of strange function (they perform simple as bearings...) there doesnt seem to be any IP involved.





Old P, I think I understand your point. I respect it and respectfully disagree. I apologise for making a post like this, but I didnt feel very good about your misinterpretation of my words, your misstating of part / material or confusing your opinion for fact.

I think Speedplay have a very good product and while I do think Speedplay could use more durable pedal body materials, I THINK A LOT OF THE COMMENTS ABOUT THE PRODUCT BEING BAD ARE BS. But I dont like Speedplay's threat of legal action based on the information available...

[xjoex]

I got a few PM's, about this. This is not my fight, I just copied the person's story from the original weight weenies thread to this forum to make it easier to read. Sorry for any confusion.

I side with the guy selling replacement parts kits.


-Joe

[Charles M]

snip

[eddief]

work really really well and no law suits yet. About 6 spare parts and cleats nearly indestructable. Get some sexy off road shoes and take the simple route.

[pbjbike]

'Here's the part where SP needs some real legal help:

"The needle bearings used in Speedplay Zero Pedal Systems are [permanently] bonded in place and cannot be removed from the pedal without damage to the components. Attempting to remove and replace the needle bearings in Zero pedals [may cause damage which could result in severe bodily injury]."

Wow-ha, now it's a contact sport, [edit markers seen above].

One must wonder how bearing replacement can be done within the confines of the OM???

The countdown to the 2002 patent expiration continues.'

[woolly]

Waitwaitwait. Speedplay says that removing their bearings is dangerous, yet they offer replacement sets anyway? D'uhhhhh...

http://www.chaobell.net/newgallery/d/2110-1/14xl63c.jpg

Where do they offer replacement needle bearings by themselves? The only thing I found were pre-installed needle bearings in new bodies.

[BobbyJones]

Waitwaitwait. Speedplay says that removing their bearings is dangerous, yet they offer replacement sets anyway? D'uhhhhh...



Your reading comprehension sucks.

[PaulE]

I've never used their pedals, know people who love them and think appropriate bearings and rebuilding instructions should be available through aftermarket sources. The company has definitely moved down a few notches in my book with this incident vs what I thought of them when I first saw their Masi replica story (http://www.speedplay.com/speedplaylabs/masi/). Maybe the owner of the Masi brand and trademarks should send a legal team after SP.

[eddief]

and not sure why YOU felt the need to merge it with the old one. some people new to the conversation may not want to read 100 messages to find out what was going on. My topic was a new start on a new subject...in my opinion.

[pbjbike]

Maybe the owner of the Masi brand and trademarks should send a legal team after SP.

Thanks for the link. :beer:

[DRietz]

Here's the part where SP needs some real legal help:

"The needle bearings used in Speedplay Zero Pedal Systems are [permanently] bonded in place and cannot be removed from the pedal without damage to the components. Attempting to remove and replace the needle bearings in Zero pedals [may cause damage which could result in severe bodily injury]."

Wow-ha, now it's a contact sport, [edit markers seen above].

One must wonder how bearing replacement can be done within the confines of the OM???

The countdown to the 2002 patent expiration continues.

Your reading comprehension sucks.

I was replying to the post I have quoted above yours. Particularly the bolded section. Mind explaining how my comprehension of this sucks?

Maybe some constructive words would be helpful instead of just an insult. I may be new to these boards, but I'm not an idiot and don't appreciate taking crap from some meanieface on the 'net. ;)

Woolly - Speedplay customer service reps have sent people lots of small bits. I do believe I heard somewhere that they sent some needle bearings to someone, but I could be wrong.

Either way, I was just being goofy because I found that dog picture and wanted to share it with the world. Bring a little levity to the "why so serious" thread. Obviously my mission wasn't accomplished.

Carry on gents. I'll remove myself from this thread.