Curt Goodrich Queue

[SamIAm]

If you find yourself in the CG queue, could you send me a quick PM?

Thanks,

Rob

[CNY rider]

If you're lost and can't find yourself in the CG queue, could you send me a quick PM?

Thanks,

Rob

Fixed it for ya.

[michael white]

pm sent.

[Johny]

pm sent.

+1

[michael white]

This isn't the circle jerk across the hall.. Keep it that way..

to say this without taking sides or jerking anyone's chain . . . but sometimes I read things like this here about that place, sometimes I read things there about this place. It's like, wherever you are, the other place is totally FUBAR, and it's usually pretty much the same cast of characters either place. Just a funny thing about human nature, I guess . . .

[michael white]

nothing was squashed. This thread http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/builder-communication-101-buyers-perspective-19429-4.html
is still open.

[StellaBlue]

nothing was squashed. This thread http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/builder-communication-101-buyers-perspective-19429-4.html
is still open.

Yeah, that ain't the original thread and I bet you know that already. :beer:

[brians647]

No, someone had a ligit question/grip and it upset the circle jerkers over there and they squashed it. And the popcorn poster was part of it.. Here, unlike there is a true discussion forum.. I'm discussing the matter and wish said builder would start answering his customers inquiries.. Period

Is there a separate thread about it that I missed, or are you just discussing it here in this one?
If you view this as a true discussion forum, why not start a new thread addressing your concerns?

[StellaBlue]

Is there a separate thread about it that I missed, or are you just discussing it here in this one?
If you view this as a true discussion forum, why not start a new thread addressing your concerns?

Go over there and look. You will find the locked thread.

[StellaBlue]

Here I'll do the leg work for you..

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/my-curt-goodrich-experience-19422.html

[54ny77]

Clarification: I was not part of the thread deletion, if that's what you meant. On the contrary, I posted a few comments hoping the OP would get resolution by utilizing the resources of various industry participants to get some answers. That thread should not have been closed. It was, so be it.

That said, I don't think specific framebuilder bashing is an appropriate item to be here, on a Serotta-sponsored forum. However, on another more "public" site like roadbikereview, etc., absolutely. On that website, there was an amazing situation of a Merlin Cielo owner who battled tirelessly with ABG to get his cracked Cielo fixed. From all indications, it was a faulty weld. That guy was determined, and it looks like he finally got resolution.

Regardless, what I did take away from the various threads/comments, and as it's relevant to Serotta forum, is a better understanding of the value proposition and niche that Serotta plays in the high-end, custom marketplace. Here you have an established firm, with a variety of resources in people, capital, materials, etc. For the relative premium you pay, you get local Serotta dealer buy-in, personalized service, a point of contact (your Serotta dealer)--all of which point to various stages of accountability.

:beer:

[edit: p.s. i have no dog in the hunt so my opinion is really worth approximately $0.00000000000.]

No, someone had a ligit question/grip and it upset the circle jerkers over there and they squashed it. And the popcorn poster was part of it.. Here, unlike there is a true discussion forum.. I'm discussing the matter and wish said builder would start answering his customers inquiries.. Period

[StellaBlue]

Clarification: I was not part of the thread deletion, if that's what you meant.

I never said you deleted it but you were in the thread and the popcorn BS is old... Nobody bashed the builder. There is a ligit gripe when you get zero response to multiple types of contact.

[54ny77]

Not disagreeing with you at all.

I posted popcorn more as humor, meaning, this thread outta be good. ;)

I never said you deleted it but you were in the thread and the popcorn BS is old... Nobody bashed the builder. There is a ligit grip when you get zero response to multiple types of contact.

[StellaBlue]

p.s. i have no dog in the hunt so my opinion is really worth approximately $0.00000000000.]

I beg to differ your opinion on which ever end you wish to discuss, you're entitled to. I'm sure you have been a paying customer in this or any other business and there is a right and wrong way to do business. If the customers aren't getting any info from the builder they have every right to find info elsewhere.. Finding out if his other customers waiting for a frame are being ignored is info that might give them some comfort...

[rugbysecondrow]

It is all BS across the hall. Too many groupies over there who want to F*&$ band.

When I posted my thread here ( http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=82864&highlight=taylor ) I was surprised and in awe of how many people PM'd and emailed about their horrible building experiences with MANY MANY MANY builders. There might be a time and a place and I am not certain when one can tell if they are in the proper place or time.

Across the hall, nothing but excuses and Bro comments.

By the way, I think Curt is going to be a NAHBS. http://www.2011.handmadebicycleshow.com/exhibitors/exhibitor-list/

[rcnute]

I like turtles. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y

[Peter P.]

Here, I believe, is the Curt Goodrich Thread (http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/my-curt-goodrich-experience-19422.html) which is relevant to this thread.

Let's boil this down and please, if I have any details wrong, PM me and I'll correct this post.

More than a year ago, SamIAm offered to subsidize the purchase of a number of Curt Goodrich frames. A number of forumites took up the offer.

Regardless of whether they took up this offer or were regular customers, a considerable number of frames have not been delivered and Curt Goodrich has gone MIA. He doesn't answer the phone, e-mails, nothing. Customers are essentially feeling as if Curt fled with the money.

Curt's a member of The Framebuilders' Collective (http://framebuilders.org/). Note the first bullet point of their vision statement:
"Support and promote ethical professional framebuilder practices." In the case of Curt Goodrich, he hasn't honored that tenet, and the other Collective members are hard-pressed to support him when, from my discussions with another Collective member, I get the distinct impression there's little hope at this time for a happy ending to the story.

I would have expected the Collective to step in and support Curt by taking care of the affected customers but I'm under the impression the Collective has just about as much contact with Curt as the customers on his wait list, so they couldn't even get a hold of this wait list if they wanted. It would be a bold, magnanimous step for the other members to absorb Curt's backlog through some sort of creative resolution (I have ideas in mind) but it's also my impression the feeling is they'd be throwing good money after bad so to speak.

If I were on the Goodrich list now and was aware of the dim situation, I'd consider my deposit gone and start anew if I could afford to. Should he ever surface and pick up where he left off, I as a customer, would ask for the right to sell my place in line. That's about the most fair resolution you could ask for unless you want to wait interminably.

My post is not intended to spread any ill-will toward Curt Goodrich and whatever tragedy has befallen him. I was only hoping to offer some suggestions for those on his wait list so that they could move on.

[54ny77]

Stella I'm not disagreeing with you in any way.

That whole situation sounds like a nightmare for actual paying customers.

I'm only saying my opinion is really worthless on this topic since I don't have a frame on order, so whatever I say is really jibber jabber.

[michael white]

I'm on the list. Rob seems to have some ideas and is working on it. Let's let him.

[StellaBlue]

Peter that nailed it on the head..

[SamIAm]

People, people. This is not intended to be anything like what happened over on Velocipede. I just wanted to gather some information for an idea that I had. That's all.

Curt needs to be a better communicator and after talking with him today, I really believe he will, but all I'm trying to do now is understand the big picture.

It's my theory that people fall into one of several categories:

I don't care how long it takes, I want my Goodrich
or
I want my Goodrich, but I won't wait forever
or
I want my money back

I personally think a lot of people want to see some form of action, to know he's out there and still making frames, even if less efficiently than before. They want to see where they are in his queue and that he is slowly, but surely making progress toward bulding their frame.

And I can tell you with confidence that he is. In fact Frankwurst, who was the first of the large group order recieved his frame very recently. It looks great. I hope he will post pictures soon.

I have asked him to consider posting his queue and progress through it on a regular basis either in the form of his blog or as a group email.

I have more skin in the game than most with 8 frames on order, but yet remain optimistic. I like Curt and I know that there is but one or two others with his raw ability, nobody with more. I have a PM that I saved from Richard Sachs saying that Curt has more talent in his little pinky, than most builders have in their whole body and he's right.

This fact has led to Curt being pigeon holed into builder the more complex, time consuming stuff. The stuff that better businessmen refuse to build because it doesn't carry the pricing power to charge commensurately with the effort. But Curt just can't say no even when he should say no. He is just that kind of guy and it has gotten him in trouble when it comes to making commitments.

My plea is that we his customers remain patient as he works through this and he is committed to work through it. Maybe, if you can afford it, and were part of the group order, offer to pay todays frame price rather than the one that was in place 3 years ago just to help a brother out. If you can't or won't, totally understand that position as well, but I thought I would put it out there nonetheless.

Likewise, if you are not really in a hurry, tell Curt, let him shift some stuff around so that he can accommodate those that need it sooner.

Who's with me?

On two, ready, break! :)

[michael white]

Last I heard this was the list, although there were a couple of more additions.

And it wasn't a year ago; it was three years ago.





14max;
FrankWurst;
Big Shanty;
Johny;
Grant Mclean;
Paczki;
DarrenCt;
JustinF;
CDP;
Brians647;
Thwart;
Ken Robb;
Blue Jays;
Michael White;
Steelrider;
ErikBrooks;
Eak12;
jmeloy;
MRB"

[brians647]

Here I'll do the leg work for you..

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/my-curt-goodrich-experience-19422.html

Got it. Thank you.
The thread that Michael White references is a continuation of that one, but with more content to it.
In the second version, I see a lot more criticism than support from the builders, so I'm not real clear on the "circle jerk" part of it.
Regardless, I'm his queue, would like a response and share your frustration, but if you'd like to have a discussion about it maybe it deserves a new thread rather than piggy-backing on SamIam's?
Just sayin'.

Edit: Sorry, I type slow. It all seems to have been covered. :o

[jlwdm]

SamIAm, great post by someone who has a lot of skin in the game.

Jeff

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . to see what constructive cycling content this thread has to offer for this forum.

If you wish to argue about a thread on that "other" forum then please go over there to do it. This simply ain't the place.

Thanks . . .

BBD

[jmeloy]

has been outstanding from the git-go. He tried to help Curt expand his visibility and grow. With Curt struggling horribly, rather than blow him up, he's trying to help him get it together. Class guy all the way.

[SamIAm]

. . . to see what constructive cycling content this thread has to offer for this forum.

If you wish to argue about a thread on that "other" forum then please go over there to do it. This simply ain't the place.

Thanks . . .

BBD

It has everything to do with this forum. You should know that.

[rugbysecondrow]

.

[BumbleBeeDave]

It has everything to do with this forum. You should know that.

. . . and that's one thing we moderators are here for. To say something when it does. So that's what I did. My comment was not aimed so much at you. You asked a simple question.

Everyone please keep it civil toward each other and toward the third party who is not here to defend himself. That's all I'm asking . . .

The only other alternative I have available is to lock the thread and let Pete sort it out later. In the interest of the spirit of this place I would really rather not do that.

BBD

[SoCalSteve]

And I would lock it in a NY minute...

But, I'll let BBD and Pete handle this one.

[Blue Jays]

Met with many here at the fantastic Finger Lakes Ramble in August 2008.
That includes several in this thread. Gained a spot on Curt's list with gracious insight and help from SamIAm around that time.
Subsequently met with Curt yet no money was exchanged from my side.
Lost touch with Curt after a number of years, yet happy to explore options and ideas being contemplated.

[SamIAm]

And I would lock it in a NY minute...

But, I'll let BBD and Pete handle this one.

What is with you guys? All I am trying to do is problem solve on behalf of Curt's customers and Curt. I don't know how to reach people offline, so this is the only "forum" I have.

I would respectfully ask that other keep it civil, and for the most part it has been, solutions, not complaints.

[SamIAm]

Met with many here at the fantastic Finger Lakes Ramble in August 2008.
That includes several in this thread. Gained a spot on Curt's list with gracious insight and help from SamIAm around that time.
Subsequently met with Curt yet no money was exchanged from my side.
Lost touch with Curt after a number of years, yet happy to explore options and ideas being contemplated.

Sent you a PM.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . for the most part it has been, solutions, not complaints.

Just trying to keep it that way and sometimes it's a fine line to walk between the nudge keeping the train ON the tracks and the nudge knocking the train OFF the tracks. I'm definitely trying to do the former.

BBD

[54ny77]

In effort to steer things to be productive.....one thing I can't understand is the relationship between amount of $ required for deposit and the amount of lead time.

What is typical Serotta deposit, and what is lead time for complete turnaround (assuming no glitches, +/-) on full custom frame?

I would think deposits for lead times of anything longer than a few months should be escrowed at a bank or something. Really, all you're doing is buying a place in line, right? Shouldn't that be a token amount, like a few hundred or so? Or is builder buying tubing today and sitting on it for 3 years, awaiting your build when you come into the queue? I'd be more concerned they're paying for rent and food today with tomorrow's deposit, with no materials in hand for tomorrow's actual build.

That's a very treacherous dance. It's gotta be a tough biz to be a 1-man shop, no doubt.

While nobody's immune, calling up a Serotta dealer, or Moots, or IF, sure has strong appeal in an era of a 1 man shop with a website/blog and a torch.

[Wilkinson4]

This is an interesting thread to me as far as the concerns we have as customers... I have seen both sides of it.

My first custom was from a builder who had well known wait time. The second from a builder known for his communication. The first wait was over five years before delivery and there was a time I really thought I was screwed. No communication, no idea what was going on until I got some pics saying it was ready for paint.

The second was like clock work and delivered on time. Over communicated, clarified and confirmed, etc...

I like what Waltworks does. He posts a wait list with status updates:

http://waltworks.blogspot.com/2007/01/from-miguel.html

I think every builder should post something like that on their websites so you can at least check where you are in the queue.

mIKE

[SamIAm]

In effort to steer things to be productive.....one thing I can't understand is the relationship between amount of $ required for deposit and the amount of lead time.

What is typical Serotta deposit, and what is lead time for complete turnaround (assuming no glitches, +/-) on full custom frame?

I would think deposits for lead times of anything longer than a few months should be escrowed at a bank or something. Really, all you're doing is buying a place in line, right? Shouldn't that be a token amount, like a few hundred or so? Or is builder buying tubing today and sitting on it for 3 years, awaiting your build when you come into the queue? I'd be more concerned they're paying for rent and food today with tomorrow's deposit, with no materials in hand for tomorrow's actual build.

That's a very treacherous dance. It's gotta be a tough biz to be a 1-man shop, no doubt.

While nobody's immune, calling up a Serotta dealer, or Moots, or IF, sure has strong appeal in an era of a 1 man shop with a website/blog and a torch.

You pretty much nailed it. I think there are two acceptable approaches. Small deposit, something like $500, to hold your place in line with no assurance on what the final pricing will be especially in the case of a multi-year queue. Or large deposit, that locks in today's pricing, but this option does require the builder to create a "lockbox" to ensure the money is not "cash flow" for the business.

[SamIAm]

I like what Waltworks does. He posts a wait list with status updates:

http://waltworks.blogspot.com/2007/01/from-miguel.html

I think every build should post something like that on their websites so you can at least check where you are at in the queue.

mIKE

+1. It helps so much to know that progress is being made. It seems so simple in concept.

[ergott]

Shouldn't that be a token amount, like a few hundred or so?

I put down $400 for a spot in line for a rather well known 6+ year list. Based on his reputation and the amount I have to wait, I hope no one is demanding a larger deposit than that.

If I had to shell out more than that, I want to wait less. Half up front? I want at least a month or two window barring unforseen events (boy do I know about those).

The best solution for me is to order a frame that I don't "need" on any schedule so no one has to stress. Make the custom bike a 2nd or 3rd bike so you can ride. Nothing like a good ride to make me feel better about anything.

Here's to a solution all can agree to. Good people on both sides here.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Here's to a solution all can agree to. Good people on both sides here.

+1

[dekindy]

It seems like there is a larger issue here with the Framebuilders' Collective tolerating a member's poor business practices. Shouldn't he be expelled for violating the Vision presented on their home page. Defining ethical practices and self-regulating is basic to any type of professional organization.

[thwart]

has been outstanding from the git-go. He tried to help Curt expand his visibility and grow. With Curt struggling horribly, rather than blow him up, he's trying to help him get it together. Class guy all the way.

Couldn't agree more. Friends like Rob are damn hard to come by...

[happycampyer]

Met with many here at the fantastic Finger Lakes Ramble in August 2008.
That includes several in this thread. Gained a spot on Curt's list with gracious insight and help from SamIAm around that time.
Subsequently met with Curt yet no money was exchanged from my side.
Lost touch with Curt after a number of years, yet happy to explore options and ideas being contemplated.If you're thinking what I'm thinking, I would be willing to do the same if there's enough critical mass to get CPG back on track.

[brians647]

It seems like there is a larger issue here with the Framebuilders' Collective tolerating a member's poor business practices. Shouldn't he be expelled for violating the Vision presented on their home page. Defining ethical practices and self-regulating is basic to any type of professional organization.

It's a valid point, but it's got to be a tough line to draw.
I'm sure that keeping that label relevant and respected is important to them,
but it's gotta suck to make that call with a friend in such a small community of craftsmen.

[Ken Robb]

It's a valid point, but it's got to be a tough line to draw.
I'm sure that keeping that label relevant and respected is important to them,
but it's gotta suck to make that call with a friend in such a small community of craftsmen.

So, as we all know it's easy to espouse high standards but it's difficult to enforce them.

[ergott]

It seems like there is a larger issue here with the Framebuilders' Collective tolerating a member's poor business practices. Shouldn't he be expelled for violating the Vision presented on their home page. Defining ethical practices and self-regulating is basic to any type of professional organization.

I think it's important to see how this is resolved first. No company is without flaw.

Eric

[Bob Ross]

to say this without taking sides or jerking anyone's chain . . . but sometimes I read things like this here about that place, sometimes I read things there about this place. It's like, wherever you are, the other place is totally FUBAR, and it's usually pretty much the same cast of characters either place. Just a funny thing about human nature, I guess . . .


^^^This. It's like freakin' parallel universes! Everyone over there talking about X, Y, or Z, then everyone over here talking about the exact same X, Y, or Z...and yet periodically someone's compelled to lob a shot over the other's bow, complaining that "all they ever do over there is talk about X, Y, or Z!"

[R2D2]

Can Curt not speak for himself? All these threads seem like trying to get an appointment to see the Wizard Of Oz.


Added later:
To clarify I only posted this because some have said he will attending NAHBS.
So he must be talking to somebody.
I've seen similar scenario's in the wine futures/pre-arrival business. And I'll leave it at that.

[Peter P.]

It seems like there is a larger issue here with the Framebuilders' Collective tolerating a member's poor business practices. Shouldn't he be expelled for violating the Vision presented on their home page. Defining ethical practices and self-regulating is basic to any type of professional organization.

I think expelling Curt would be the wrong focus of the Collective.

The Framebuilders' Collective has already acknowledged there's a problem, but as I suggested earlier, they're not offering a solution that would address Curt's customers. I distinctly suspect one reason is they can't contact Curt. Another reason I suspect is, if they acted, any investment to shore up Curt's business would be money that could be considered just as lost as the customers' deposits currently are. That lack of faith, in action, tells me things don't bode well.

I envisioned one possible solution of offering the customers frames from the other builders in the Collective, either with advanced placement on their waitlists, reduced or eliminated deposits (not a discount; just pay all at delivery), or any number of other gestures. This would show the Collective offers more than lip service, but I don't see it. If it boils down to likely throwing money down a hole, then is some respects I don't blame them, but it is telling about the situation.

Additionally, and with all due respect to SamIAm's generosity, SamIAm gently suggested above that if possible, queued customers offer Curt MORE on their deposit; SamIAm apparently has contact with Curt, but Curt's not delivering product nor communicating with his customers.

And as R2D2 asks why Curt isn't defending himself-that's the whole point. Not only aren't frames in customers' hands, he's not returning phone calls, e-mails, and so on.

[rugbysecondrow]

I think it's important to see how this is resolved first. No company is without flaw.

Eric
No man is without fault either which makes one man shops even more suscpetable to hiccups. I am glad there are guys like Rob out there. He is much nicer than I am and if he can organize this for the betterment of all involved, great.

There are great lessons here in this thread for the prospective buyers and what shop suits your needs. Lessons for professionals regarding expectation setting, delivery standards and communication.

[BillG]

First I think Rob is great and his act of generosity quite extraordinary so don't take this the wrong way. Few things suck more than being generous and then left holding the bag.

My question is why do you think this case is different from Troy's wheels? Is it just because you have a line of communication with Curt and not Troy? I mean that seriously, not being contentious.

Circle A sends out an email every month with the initials of everyone on the list, place, what's been started, and projected timing. Not hard to do and an excellent model.

[mister]

but Curt's not delivering product

are you sure Curt isn't delivering products?
he is regularly posting new (and very very nice) frames on his flickr...

[SamIAm]

It seems like there is a larger issue here with the Framebuilders' Collective tolerating a member's poor business practices. Shouldn't he be expelled for violating the Vision presented on their home page. Defining ethical practices and self-regulating is basic to any type of professional organization.

I think Curt would not disagree, I have honestly thought the same thing myself. But I'm not really sure what the collective even is. It seems, and don't take this the wrong way, weightless. And therefore whether a builder is in or out isn't that meaningful. In my opinion of course. Perhaps one day, it will take on greater definition and weight.

[SamIAm]

First I think Rob is great and his act of generosity quite extraordinary so don't take this the wrong way. Few things suck more than being generous and then left holding the bag.


Thank you for that, but just to be clear. I am not offering to "hold" the bag, only trying to bridge the communication void to explore practical solutions to the dilemna before us.


My question is why do you think this case is different from Troy's wheels? Is it just because you have a line of communication with Curt and not Troy? I mean that seriously, not being contentious.



A valid point for sure and I think you have it pegged, I can still get Curt to pick up the phone plus I know he is committed to making this right and there is movement, even if not apparent to others.

[Nags&Ducs]

to say this without taking sides or jerking anyone's chain . . . but sometimes I read things like this here about that place, sometimes I read things there about this place. It's like, wherever you are, the other place is totally FUBAR, and it's usually pretty much the same cast of characters either place. Just a funny thing about human nature, I guess . . .

You are spot on Michael!! To the point that it is a funny thing.

As to Stella's original post that was deleted, I didn't quite follow your drift until I read more of your comments. I understand your take is to let the dirty laundry air out. If so, I am with you. People/companies have to be accountable for the actions or in this case, in-actions. If I were shopping for a custom builder and was about to lay down a 50% deposit, I want to know this kind of information. I was about to order a custom frame recently when the builder had his "Holiday Sale". I was warned by a forum-ite here about his experiences and so I bailed out. (Thanks dude-you know who you are). Saved me from a potential headache that I didn't need to deal with at the time. Now for the case of Curt, I knew about him and his issues well before this became public. I now know that a lot of folks have waited, biting their tongue and not publicly outing Curt since this has been going on for over 3 years. Everytime, I saw him post here or across the hall, I soooo wanted to call him out but I didn't because 1) I didn't want to fight my buddy's battles for him, and 2) I didn't want to incur the wrath of the moderators, both here and on the salon.

Now that this is all out in the open, I wish the dude would get his shyte together or just be done, finished, finito with the business of making frames.

[SamIAm]

Additionally, and with all due respect to SamIAm's generosity, SamIAm gently suggested above that if possible, queued customers offer Curt MORE on their deposit; SamIAm apparently has contact with Curt, but Curt's not delivering product nor communicating with his customers.



Just to be clear, I did not suggest customers offer Curt more on their deposit, only on the finished frame and only and only on the ones that they will be paying a net $1700 for and lastly only if the Spirit moves them if you will. They have every right to take delivery of that frame on the original terms.

And Curt is delivering product, albeit slowly.

Frankwurst I need you here. :)

[soulspinner]

Some of you are amazingly gracious- if I gave someone a deposit and hadnt heard from them 4 years but they still post regularly on a discussion board Id have lost it. Kudos to the ones working on a solution.

[sherok]

Well, it's a new year so let's believe there is hope. I am on Curt's list and yes, I have both talked to Curt and shared e-mails with him in the past week. I think I may have something good to share with you within the month. Until then, I will keep you all waiting.

[dekindy]

It's a valid point, but it's got to be a tough line to draw.
I'm sure that keeping that label relevant and respected is important to them,
but it's gotta suck to make that call with a friend in such a small community of craftsmen.

It is a business ran by adults and should be treated as such. Why develop standards if they are meaningless? It makes you wonder if the other members have standards either. My initial view of the Framebuilders Collective was positive but has plummented with this revelation. If business practices are not enforced then is anything else? NAHBS enforces standards before builders are allowed to exhibit. Maybe it will take the framebuilders' collective awhile to become a professional SRO but it better get there if it wants to be effective.

David Kirk, you are a founding member, what is your view on this? I personally would not want my name and reputation listed if it were well known that other members were held in low regard because of poor business practices. Why risk your reputation?

[jmeloy]

When I really struggled was when I saw Curt post a batch of Team Bikes he'd built for his riders. CERTAINLY, any builder has the right to sponsor a team but to put those ahead of a queue that was already in disarray really frustrated me. You have to ask about priorities at that point.

[buck-50]

I've said it before, we tolerate behavior from the people who build and service our bikes that we would never, ever tolerate form another vendor.

Would any of us tolerate this kind of behavior from, say, the people who sell and service our cars? What is it about two wheels that makes it OK for service to go to hell?

I can tell you that reading that VS thread pretty much dried up all the respect I had for Richard Sachs- his "you'll get it when we give it to you and you should be happy we let you buy our product" attitude is just flat out wrong. And, I'm gonna assume that if he reads this, he'll call me all sorts of names for saying this.

But I can't treat my clients like that. My company would go under if we treated our clients like that. I work in an industry that depends on the services of individual artists. I hire photographers on a regular basis, guys who work solo, who've invested (tens of) thousands of dollars in gear, who will take that $25k camera and stand in mud up to their knees and shoot pictures in the pouring rain. They do it without complaining, they do it on schedule, they do it without a deposit. They don't just drop off the face of the earth and stop returning calls and emails. If there's a problem, they let me know. And I do the same with my clients.

Your clients have deadlines of their own. And really, they'd rather have an honest assessment of how long something is going to take than to just lose contact. Tell me you've got family problems and it's going to take an additional 6 months. I'm OK with that- sure, I'm gonna be pissed for a while that my fram isn't gonna be done by my birthday or for the big ride with my friends or whatever. But at least I'll know, I'll stop worrying and I can re-work my deadlines around the adjusted schedule.

[ergott]

My initial view of the Framebuilders Collective was positive but has plummented with this revelation.

This situation has only come to light in a few weeks. Wouldn't it be better to see how problems are resolved before making that conclusion?

[rwsaunders]

Some of you are amazingly gracious- if I gave someone a deposit and hadnt heard from them 4 years but they still post regularly on a discussion board Id have lost it. Kudos to the ones working on a solution.

Roger that...after a three year wait for a product that was promised to be delivered in one year, I'd be on the road to the North Star State, determined to collect my refund. If nothing else, solely for the fact that I didn't receive the courtesy of a response to my warranted inquiries.

Sam...I don't know you, but hats off for your involvement in trying to resolve the issue. Perhaps suggesting that some type of response to the issues that have lead to the delays might help. I.e. from the shop owner himself? Just post it on his website or simply send a blanket email to the depositors. It would go a long way and certainly improve his long-term business prospects.

Communications shut down from a business standpoint is almost always related to confusion, which can rapidly escalate to fear. Sole proprietors have a deep sense of pride in their businesses, and when fear sets in and the answers aren't there, there is quite often no one to turn to. The survivors seek help and the proud end up out of business.

It's one thing to be known for your craft, and I've never read anything but accolades for the build quality and performance of the frames. The respect of his peers seems almost unequaled. But show equal respect to the folks who have gathered their hard earned funds to purchase your product. Bare it all and in this niche market, I bet the patrons come out of the woodwork to help. Seems pretty simple to me...best of luck to all involved.

[rugbysecondrow]

I've said it before, we tolerate behavior from the people who build and service our bikes that we would never, ever tolerate form another vendor.

.

I agree with your whole statement, but this is the crux of it. I don't understand the mentality of tolerance in this respect as I don't subscribe to it. I think what is even more frustrating is that one really has to dig to find out info on a builder. It is taboo to say anything but glowing/gushing comments about a builder and I am not certain why. Say something negative and folks treat you like you knocked up the neighbors dog. The many problems that folks have had and continue to have with builders rarely if ever surface like they should. The consumer is left woefully uninformed.

[oldguy00]

Deleting my previous comments because of Grant's post about letters going out. I agree that changes a lot of what has been said.
Hope it works out for all involved, you guys have more patience than me!!

[StellaBlue]

This is the last thing i'll say on the matter. If you have time to wish people a happy birthday on Facebook you have time to respond to your paying customers.

[Nags&Ducs]

I've said it before, we tolerate behavior from the people who build and service our bikes that we would never, ever tolerate form another vendor.

Would any of us tolerate this kind of behavior from, say, the people who sell and service our cars? What is it about two wheels that makes it OK for service to go to hell?

I can tell you that reading that VS thread pretty much dried up all the respect I had for Richard Sachs- his "you'll get it when we give it to you and you should be happy we let you buy our product" attitude is just flat out wrong. And, I'm gonna assume that if he reads this, he'll call me all sorts of names for saying this.

But I can't treat my clients like that. My company would go under if we treated our clients like that. I work in an industry that depends on the services of individual artists. I hire photographers on a regular basis, guys who work solo, who've invested (tens of) thousands of dollars in gear, who will take that $25k camera and stand in mud up to their knees and shoot pictures in the pouring rain. They do it without complaining, they do it on schedule, they do it without a deposit. They don't just drop off the face of the earth and stop returning calls and emails. If there's a problem, they let me know. And I do the same with my clients.

Your clients have deadlines of their own. And really, they'd rather have an honest assessment of how long something is going to take than to just lose contact. Tell me you've got family problems and it's going to take an additional 6 months. I'm OK with that- sure, I'm gonna be pissed for a while that my fram isn't gonna be done by my birthday or for the big ride with my friends or whatever. But at least I'll know, I'll stop worrying and I can re-work my deadlines around the adjusted schedule.

This

I lost all respect for that guy a long time ago. He really believes his ATMO schtick - Really, everyone, your opinions don't matter.

BTW, Buck-50, I agree with everything you said here.

[dekindy]

This situation has only come to light in a few weeks. Wouldn't it be better to see how problems are resolved before making that conclusion?

No. It is painfully obvious from a customer perspective that Curt Goodrich never had good business practices. He may be a skilled builder, but the Framebuilders Collective supposedly requires more than that. Either the Framebuilders Collective should get serious, change their vision, or disband.

[SamIAm]

I agree with your whole statement, but this is the crux of it. I don't understand the mentality of tolerance in this respect as I don't subscribe to it. I think what is even more frustrating is that one really has to dig to find out info on a builder. It is taboo to say anything but glowing/gushing comments about a builder and I am not certain why. Say something negative and folks treat you like you knocked up the neighbors dog. The many problems that folks have had and continue to have with builders rarely if ever surface like they should. The consumer is left woefully uninformed.

I would never argue with this viewpoint. The customer has the right to be informed, we are not dealing with a protected class here, well we kind of are, and that's a problem.

All you need to do is look at people like David Kirk, Carl Strong, etc. etc. to know that this can and should be run like a business.

I admit that I have felt somewhat intimidated in the past with regard to this industry. I had the relationship inverted. I didn't feel like the customer, I felt like the builder was doing me the favor by taking my money and building me a frame. I'm not saying the builders acted that way at all, its just the perception I had at the time and it does tend to permeate this industry.

I do not make any excuses for Curt and I have struggled mightily to forgive him myself, but when I talk to him, I am reminded of who he really was and could be again and all that anger falls away and I am filled with hope that this will have a happy ending.

That is why it is so imperative that he communicate with others, so that they can at least be exposed to this side of him.

[Fixed]

bro i'd hate to be that guy
cheers imho
anyone live near drop in on him

[justinf]

As an actual friend and paying customer of CPG (and RS and a whole bunch of others), I'd like to thank those of you who are actually solution-oriented and trying to help those in need. You know who you are.

Those of you who are bitching and hurling insults from the cheap seats, or more likely the parking lot. . . why don't you think a little harder and a lot more critically before wasting any more of our shared bandwidth. That goes for here, across the hall, or in person.

[Lionel]

It's all about managing expectations. As many said communication is very simple these days. I cannot find any real excuse for no communication for a few YEARS... I hope all will end up well for all in the queue. I am certainly glad I am not in it.

It seems that these deposits were 50% deposits which I guess can be OK for a good communicator with not too long a wait; I gave Carl Strong a 50% deposit but communication was superb and the wait time about 6 to 9 months.

[Nags&Ducs]

This situation has only come to light in a few weeks. Wouldn't it be better to see how problems are resolved before making that conclusion?

Eric, while the thread and public outing has only come out a few weeks, I can almost say for certain that the Collective, or at least select members of the Collective have known about this for some time- probably well over a year ago. The buddy that I mentioned that had the problems with Curt has had it going on for over 2 years. During that time, he has had several members of the Collective try to reconcile the issue with Curt. So I am with what some of the others have expressed: The Collective is full of hot air. It has no weight. It can do something, but it chooses to do nothing. Even if they were to boot Curt out of the Collective tomorrow, the question becomes, why did it take so long?

[old fat man]

When I really struggled was when I saw Curt post a batch of Team Bikes he'd built for his riders. CERTAINLY, any builder has the right to sponsor a team but to put those ahead of a queue that was already in disarray really frustrated me. You have to ask about priorities at that point.

+1000. curt is acting like a coward. he's f'd over a lot of customers and made no attempts to right his wrongs with them and yet still has time for team bikes and flickr updates? grow a spine, admit you're in trouble and talk to the people who have been hung out to dry for YEARS.

even if it takes an entire day to track down and communicate with the 15-30 (?) people waiting on frames, it's not like the delivery date will suffer any worse than it has already. :crap:

[Frankwurst]

Just to be clear, I did not suggest customers offer Curt more on their deposit, only on the finished frame and only and only on the ones that they will be paying a net $1700 for and lastly only if the Spirit moves them if you will. They have every right to take delivery of that frame on the original terms.

And Curt is delivering product, albeit slowly.

Frankwurst I need you here. :)

Good Morning Gang. I just tuned into this thread along with the others involving the situation at hand. SamIAm is right Curts delivering frames. Once Curt contacted me informing me he was about to start my frame his communication was very good. If he was slow with the final delivery it was as much my fault as him. I knew he had a thing or two that he probably needed to wrap up and told him I had no problem with him putting my bike on the back burner to keep others happy. Once the details were worked out I stepped back and more or less told Curt "Have at it. You know what I want."
Curt sent pictures, emails and phoned on a regular basis. The bike arrived and Curt phoned shortly thereafter to make sure I was happy with it. Curt apologized for the time delay and thanked me for my patience. I in turn told him I've been around enough to realize there are speedbumps in life. We all hit them. If your one of the fortunate few who never have, count your blessings. I'm not making excuses for anybody here. I'm simply stating Curts building and moving in the right direction. I'd buy another one and have no worries. Sorry for the long post. I normally don't post pics of my bikes but here it is before it shipped.

[dancinkozmo]

..me thinks getting booted out of the collective would be akin to being banned from "friendster" :)

[dekindy]

As an actual friend and paying customer of CPG (and RS and a whole bunch of others), I'd like to thank those of you who are actually solution-oriented and trying to help those in need. You know who you are.

Those of you who are bitching and hurling insults from the cheap seats, or more likely the parking lot. . . why don't you think a little harder and a lot more critically before wasting any more of our shared bandwidth. That goes for here, across the hall, or in person.

No need other than poor business practices has been put forth. Why would SamIAm have to post a thread here if he had CG's ear and support for his "help". SamIAm is proposing solutions? This is completely dysfunctional and makes no sense. Offer to refund customers that are dissatisfied and putting good business practices in place is the solution, not interventions by someone outside the business.

[buck-50]

As an actual friend and paying customer of CPG (and RS and a whole bunch of others), I'd like to thank those of you who are actually solution-oriented and trying to help those in need. You know who you are.

Those of you who are bitching and hurling insults from the cheap seats, or more likely the parking lot. . . why don't you think a little harder and a lot more critically before wasting any more of our shared bandwidth. That goes for here, across the hall, or in person.
But, why exactly, should a customer put up with a complete lack of communication? I had similar problems with a custom frame I had built- I love the frame and it's exactly what I wanted, but when things got off schedule, my builder suddenly stopped communicating. It was frustrating, it was infuriating and when he did finally communicate, it was harder not to be angry. And that was after 8 months of very good communication.

A custom frame isn't cheap. Most folks who order one save for a long time to get one. I know I did. And it's not in most people's nature to just give someone a deposit between $500 and $2000 and then just forget about the money. They wanna know what their money is doing.

[SamIAm]

Offer to refund customers that are dissatisfied and putting good business practices in place is the solution, not interventions by someone outside the business.

Super and practical idea, why hadn't I thought of that.

[Lionel]

The fact that he talks to the guy he is making a frame for at that very moment makes it even more unforgivable not to talk to the others in the queue.

[SamIAm]

I started this thread for the purpose of rounding up names and email addresses for those directly affected.

If you are one of those people and you want to bash Curt, have at it.

If you are not, please refrain from using this thread to do so.

I am interested in hearing from people, via PM, who are on the list and others who are not on the list, but might be interested in a spot (that I would personally guarantee, not pay for, but guarantee) and lastly, those who might have something to offer, be it wisdom or anything else.

Thanks

[ergott]

Eric, while the thread and public outing has only come out a few weeks, I can almost say for certain that the Collective, or at least select members of the Collective have known about this for some time- probably well over a year ago. The buddy that I mentioned that had the problems with Curt has had it going on for over 2 years. During that time, he has had several members of the Collective try to reconcile the issue with Curt. So I am with what some of the others have expressed: The Collective is full of hot air. It has no weight. It can do something, but it chooses to do nothing. Even if they were to boot Curt out of the Collective tomorrow, the question becomes, why did it take so long?


I didn't realize that.

[rugbysecondrow]

As an actual friend and paying customer of CPG (and RS and a whole bunch of others), I'd like to thank those of you who are actually solution-oriented and trying to help those in need. You know who you are.

Those of you who are bitching and hurling insults from the cheap seats, or more likely the parking lot. . . why don't you think a little harder and a lot more critically before wasting any more of our shared bandwidth. That goes for here, across the hall, or in person.

I respect your perspective as a friend. With that said, must of us are not friends with our builders and, speaking for myself, I purchase custom frames not friendships. If I end up developing a friendship with the builder, then that is an added bonus. As a customer, I want a good working relationship that results in a great product. If I were friends with a builder, I would never ask him to lower his price for me or do me favors, in turn I am not certain what is fair to ask customers who might also be friends? Tough questions to be sure with no easy answers.

I had a poor experience with a builder. I ended up hating the process and loathed the fact I might have to take ownership of a bike that was the product of it. I would have held up my end of the bargin even if I didn't think he had. When it comes down to it, it is just a bike frame, that is all. There are quite a few people who can build them, build them well and do so without all the stress. What is special is the process. The process should be fun and productive. When neither is occuring, it is hard for a customer to swallow. I don't mean that as a bashing at all, but I think sometimes builders forget it is about the customer, the customer, the customer and not about the builder. the customer goes custom because they want something tailored to them, for them specifically. That is why I went with Mr. Bedford. Great to work with, great product, great process and honest. I went back for round two and I anticipate a round 3 and 4 for myself and wife.

That is why I think it is best for a customer to match up properly with shop. Serotta might be the best choice for some buyers, local shop reps, fitting and company and historic backing of product, fast turn around on a very high quality product. If somebody wants to wait for a bike that might be uber special with special tweaks, then they can pick a shop that can do that for them. Bedford, Kirk, Wages and others can do that for you with some reasonable wait times.

[Grant McLean]

But, why exactly, should a customer put up with a complete lack of communication?

The answer is: because they wanted a frame.

-g

[michael white]

The answer is: because they wanted a frame.

-g

There are new guys willing to go the extra mile. There are older, very competent guys who never really got the hang of the web. There are excellent, but perhaps less cool bikes at the lbs that the custom buyer might take another appreciative look at. The market always gets the last word.

[Nags&Ducs]

As an actual friend and paying customer of CPG (and RS and a whole bunch of others), I'd like to thank those of you who are actually solution-oriented and trying to help those in need. You know who you are.

Those of you who are bitching and hurling insults from the cheap seats, or more likely the parking lot. . . why don't you think a little harder and a lot more critically before wasting any more of our shared bandwidth. That goes for here, across the hall, or in person.

It's easy for you to withhold judgment when you have a personal relationship and call them "friends". Most of the folks in the que don't have that luxury. Let me also ask you JustinF, are you currently in the que to receive a Goodrich frame or you a past customer that had the "good" Curt? If you are the latter, maybe you should think a little harder and have a little perspective of the folks that are dealing with this before you chastise. If you are the former and you still have this attitude, then, I applaud you.

[SamIAm]

It's easy for you to withhold judgment when you have a personal relationship and call them "friends". Most of the folks in the que don't have that luxury. Let me also ask you JustinF, are you currently in the que to receive a Goodrich frame or you a past customer that had the "good" Curt? If you are the latter, maybe you should think a little harder and have a little perspective of the folks that are dealing with this before you chastise. If you are the former and you still have this attitude, then, I applaud you.

Speaking for Justin, he is in the former category so start clapping.

You seem to be really vested in this for not being in either category.

[Grant McLean]

There are new guys willing to go the extra mile. There are older, very competent guys who never really got the hang of the web. There are excellent, but perhaps less cool bikes at the lbs that the custom buyer might take another appreciative look at. The market always gets the last word.

Agreed. Everyone on Curt's wait list had the option to bail out last year
when a letter was sent to everyone asking them what they wanted to do.
Almost everyone replied that they would wait, they still wanted a frame
from him. What's that say? I'm not mad now because I understand that
I made a decision, based on my wants, and chose to wait.

Since that year or so has passed, I've changed my mind, and I don't want
a frame from Curt anymore, but I'm not going to go around all fired up
because I made the choice to wait. I was offered an out, like everyone.

-g

[brians647]

I agree with much of what has been said. I like many of you, have been fuming for a while now. It sucks that the group therapy has had to be had when SamIam and Curt are trying to get it together.
As far as the Collective goes, it's shades of gray. They may have known for years, but what did they know? Let's not make assumptions. If delays originated from personal issues, at what point is that a reflection on his qualifications at a builder?
Not defending anyone, just pointing out that it's not that simple. Never is.
<snipped> his "you'll get it when we give it to you and you should be happy we let you buy our product" attitude is just flat out wrong. And, I'm gonna assume that if he reads this, he'll call me all sorts of names for saying this.
I must have missed it, I don't recall reading Richard saying that. On the contrary, I recall him writing, "there's no excuse for the lack of communication that I know of" - or something like that. As a matter of fact, he points out poor business practices in a couple places.

[buck-50]

I agree with much of what has been said. I like many of you, have been fuming for a while now. It sucks that the group therapy has had to be had when SamIam and Curt are trying to get it together.
As far as the Collective goes, it's shades of gray. They may have known for years, but what did they know? Let's not make assumptions. If delays originated from personal issues, at what point is that a reflection on his qualifications at a builder?
Not defending anyone, just pointing out that it's not that simple. Never is.



I must have missed it, I don't recall reading Richard saying that. On the contrary, I recall him writing, "there's no excuse for the lack of communication that I know of" - or something like that. As a matter of fact, he points out poor business practices in a couple places.
the frames we make don't grow on trees, and if we miss a day or a month of work for any reason at all, that time is never available again. so, what i wanna say is this - you'll get your frame when it's done. and as you have mentioned, it will be worth the wait.

[SamIAm]

As to the collective, I just don't really buy it as anything more than an idea or mindset right now. I see nothing that I can sink my teeth into.

I will say this, at least 2 of the members, one of them being Richard, have put some of their own money into this issue.

[J.Greene]

I applaud SamIAm for trying to find a solution for all of the parties involved.

I hope going forward that sevice commitments and expectations will be a part of the buying decision and not just the fetish details of construction. I see nothing wrong with asking a framebuilder(I am one) how he or she communicates, what is the frequency, and how do you handle it when you get behind (we all do). I also think it's the time for the framebuilder to lay out some ground rules too. If you want an opinion on a builder, go to the gallery, at this site or any other and pm that owner. I've never known a bike person who didn't want to talk about his or her bike.

I feel for Curt, I feel for those affected, and i'm optimistic that some good can come from this. I'm trying to grow my framebuilding business and these things affect me too, but I don't see how a little empathy and education can't go a long way.

Jonathan

[akelman]

This isn't my business (I'm not in the CG queue and thus have no skin in the game), but as a puzzled observer, I'd point out that SamIAm started this thread by asking people in the CG queue to PM him. Knowing just a bit about the ongoing problems with CG's business, I thought to myself, "I have no idea what SamIAm is up to, but I'm glad that he's choosing to do whatever it is behind closed doors."

Which is to say, I understand that some people think the V-Salon sucks. Honestly, there are people over there who seem pretty annoying. (The same is true of people over here, of course. Heck, I think I'm probably one of them.) I also understand that some people think there should be a thread devoted to sharing the bad experiences people here have had with builders. In fact, people have tried that before. And while I don't think it's a bad idea, I do understand that forums hosted by Serotta or founded by Richard Sachs (among others) probably aren't keen to provide the bandwidth for that discussion. Finally, I understand that some people are really angry with Curt Goodrich.

But here's the thing, SamIAm tried to start a thread to help someone that he describes as a friend. Can people respect that? Or not? It seems to me that it's really that simple. All of the other stuff, all of the stuff above, not to mention some pretty interesting questions about what it means to try to be an artisan in an era of post-industrial capitalism, probably belongs in another thread. That thread well might be interesting. And it well might be productive. And because I'm a shameless voyeur, I well might read it. But it's a very different thread from the one that SamIAm tried to start, right?

Again, this isn't my business. And I'm sorry if I've offended anyone by involving myself. But I admire what SamIAm is trying to do. And I'd like to see him succeed. Those sentiments take nothing away from the (legitimate) frustrations that are being expressed in this friend. It's just that I think those frustrations probably can be expressed elsethread.

[michael white]

great post, adelman! but let's see now, what do they call this thing? Oh I got it


Serotta Competition Bicycle Forums > General Discussion

[ergott]

the frames we make don't grow on trees, and if we miss a day or a month of work for any reason at all, that time is never available again. so, what i wanna say is this - you'll get your frame when it's done. and as you have mentioned, it will be worth the wait.

I think it's rather convenient of you to post that and ignore all his follow-up posts.

"for the record, i wrote those words (or words to that effect) for that OP on that thread based on what was already posted. i did not mean it on literal terms nor do i subscribe to them (literally). agreed on all the rest of the stuff i see here so far. stay in touch. answer emails asap (even IF they are from a third hand owner), and/or set up a CC or BCC field and do broadcasts-to-all every now and then. i posted what i do/how i do it on a Smoked Out thread so won't get redundant. but i will add that it's simply amazing how many cats have multiple emails, or leave addys behind for new ones, or have firewalls that block messages to big fields, or simply also do not acknowledge receipt when a note (to them) goes out. it's only communication if both sides partake atmo."

[ergott]

I think at this point the conversation is over. SamIam achieved his purpose of getting in touch with people he needed to. The rest is just fodder (myself included). Too many people with no vested interest in the matter (again, myself included).

I vote lock. At least until some of this can be digested by the parties involved.

[akelman]

great post, adelman! but let's see now, what do they call this thing? Oh I got it


Serotta Competition Bicycle Forums > General Discussion

That's absolutely right, of course. And I'm a huge fan of wide-ranging discussion. Which is why I said that threads devoted to the various questions above might be worthwhile. My only point, then, was that this thread, a thread originally started by a forum member who wants to help out a friend, might not be the ideal spot for those discussions.

[mister]

Everyone on Curt's wait list had the option to bail out last year
when a letter was sent to everyone asking them what they wanted to do.
Almost everyone replied that they would wait, they still wanted a frame
from him. What's that say? I'm not mad now because I understand that
I made a decision, based on my wants, and chose to wait.

Since that year or so has passed, I've changed my mind, and I don't want
a frame from Curt anymore, but I'm not going to go around all fired up
because I made the choice to wait. I was offered an out, like everyone.

-g

this changes everything.
dudes on the list given chance to get out and surely were informed the wait will be long.
what's the complaining for?

let Curt do his thing, when the time comes you'll get to communicate.
it's like all you guys are complaining for nothing (not even on CG's list, maybe the reason it took 6 pages before the bailout option was mentioned) or need him to hold your hand through the wait period...

[coylifut]

Great. This has degenerated into an RS bashing thread. You're taking A run at a guy who has donated time, $ and frame parts to help solve the problem. Who's next up for the lynching? SamIam?

[michael white]

this changes everything.
dudes on the list given chance to get out and surely were informed the wait will be long.
what's the complaining for?

let Curt do his thing, when the time comes you'll get to communicate.
it's like all you guys are complaining for nothing (not even on CG's list, maybe the reason it took 6 pages before the bailout option was mentioned) or need him to hold your hand through the wait period...

it wasn't exactly that simple. For instance, the letter did not come out and state we could have a refund per se, so it wasn't very clear how/when/what sort of "out" was available. It was more a request for patience, and as Grant describes, we were patient.

in addition, just to summarize the situation to avoid further misunderstandings:

the letter was not a bailout, but an offer to "reset expectations." Ok, so at that point we'd all been waiting for years, and here was a letter saying: sorry, but just hang in there, and we'll set a new date . . . then a day or two later came an email saying, here's your new date. So we decided to be patient. We were patient for another year. It was comforting to finally have a date in writing, when the frame would be built. My new, reset date passed nearly two months ago with no communication. Now, multiply that scenario times 20 or so for customers who paid deposits years ago, and you'll begin to get a feel for the resentments here.

[michael white]

Great. This has degenerated into an RS bashing thread. You're taking A run at a guy who has donated time, $ and frame parts to help solve the problem. Who's next up for the lynching? SamIam?

I don't exactly see any RS bashing, but your point is well taken. RS is a good guy here (and in general), and people should know that.

[justinf]

Another response, to the various wide-ranging and sometimes laughable comments directed my way. it is obvious that some of the loudest and most disrespectful mouths on this thread have no skin in this particular game as well as some seriously flawed information.

Ah, the forums. Just because the discussion is "general" doesn't necessarily mean it should be without basis in fact, personally insulting to others in the trade, etc. just because you "can", often from behind your veil of anonymity. Some of us really do try.

Do I condone Curt's behavior at present? Hell no.

And one more thing on a personal level, whether inferred or otherwise: I ????ing guarantee that I am not one to buy a friendship, in any fashion.

[Grant McLean]

it wasn't exactly that simple. For instance, the letter did not come out and state we could have a refund per se, so it wasn't very clear how/when/what sort of "out" was available. It was more a request for patience, and as Grant describes, we were patient.

Well, a refund was offered, just not a timeline.
I don't begrudge anyone who has run out of patience. I did.

Best intentions all around, the people who are on the wait list wanted a frame
from Curt, that's a good thing I guess. But the anger some people expressed
tells me that they're just mad at themselves for choosing to wait, against
their better judgement and past experience. I wish Curt the best.

g

[michael white]

Well, a refund was offered, just not a timeline.
I don't begrudge anyone who has run out of patience. I did.

Best intentions all around, the people who are on the wait list wanted a frame
from Curt, that's a good thing I guess. But the anger some people expressed
tells me that they're just mad at themselves for choosing to wait, against
their better judgement and past experience. I wish Curt the best.

g

I have a different recollection about the refund. But I also wish Curt the best.

[rugbysecondrow]

Another response, to the various wide-ranging and sometimes laughable comments directed my way. it is obvious that some of the loudest and most disrespectful mouths on this thread have no skin in this particular game as well as some seriously flawed information.

Ah, the forums. Just because the discussion is "general" doesn't necessarily mean it should be without basis in fact, personally insulting to others in the trade, etc. just because you "can", often from behind your veil of anonymity. Some of us really do try.

Do I condone Curt's behavior at present? Hell no.

And one more thing on a personal level, whether inferred or otherwise: I ????ing guarantee that I am not one to buy a friendship, in any fashion.

I understand the stated purpose of the thread, but sometimes discussions morph. I have read little bashing, little personal baiting or anything else noted above. It seems that this thread is one that a new/prospective customer should read, it contains info that is not currently out there. Customers need to know it is not all roses and butterflys. I am not directly involved in this deal at all, but if what I wrote can cause a customer to think about their purchase and little more logically and a little less poetically, then I will be happy.

If I specifically said something that personally offended you, it was not intended.

[buck-50]

I think it's rather convenient of you to post that and ignore all his follow-up posts.

"for the record, i wrote those words (or words to that effect) for that OP on that thread based on what was already posted. i did not mean it on literal terms nor do i subscribe to them (literally). agreed on all the rest of the stuff i see here so far. stay in touch. answer emails asap (even IF they are from a third hand owner), and/or set up a CC or BCC field and do broadcasts-to-all every now and then. i posted what i do/how i do it on a Smoked Out thread so won't get redundant. but i will add that it's simply amazing how many cats have multiple emails, or leave addys behind for new ones, or have firewalls that block messages to big fields, or simply also do not acknowledge receipt when a note (to them) goes out. it's only communication if both sides partake atmo."
Sorry, that was the last one I saw on the thread I read-What you've posted sounds considerably more reasonable.

S'pose that's the problem with multiple threads across multiple sites on a touchy subject...

BTW, I also agree that Curt Goodrich giving everyone on his list a chance to bail a year ago does change things a bit.

[Pete Serotta]

I almost closed this when a few started "poking" at the other forum and the members.

Too Tall, Grant. Richard and others are friends of cycling, very reputable, and the only possible negative for them is that I greatly respect and admire them and call them friends.


"attacking" them or others on their forum is not acceptable here. :no: :no:


Please do not do it for I do not like closing threads or banning folks but I feel very strongly about what I said above in regard to Too Tall, his forum, and the folks I miss much who use to make things even more fun here when they were more regular.


Be mad at me and not any one else...If you must attack someone on the forum make it me, :D

[oldguy00]

Ban Serotta Pete!!!!!








;)

[Blue Jays]

"...If you must attack someone on the forum make it me, :D ..."Oh, in that case:
I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!

:banana:

[Lifelover]

....But here's the thing, SamIAm tried to start a thread to help someone that he describes as a friend. Can people respect that? Or not? It seems to me that it's really that simple. All of the other stuff, all of the stuff above, not to mention some pretty interesting questions about what it means to try to be an artisan in an era of post-industrial capitalism, probably belongs in another thread. That thread well might be interesting. And it well might be productive. And because I'm a shameless voyeur, I well might read it. But it's a very different thread from the one that SamIAm tried to start, right?
.....


Don't confuse "starting" a thread with "owning" a thread. Only the moderators get to decide what we can and can't post.

While the OP was clearly well intended, he had to know it was going to evoke a lot of other conversation.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . and go ahead and lock this. It seems to have run its course. I think those who wish to vent have had the chance to do so. Those who want to make constructive comments have also had a chance to do so.

For my own two cents, I have met Curt but never ordered a bike from him. I hope whatever problems on his part that may have led to this situation get resolved. I hope whatever problems customers are having getting their product are also resolved.

There are good people both here and on VS. There are people who have personality conflicts both here and on V-Salon. Both sites are made up of people and people are not perfect. Kudos to SamIAm for doing his best to constructively engage others and encourage positive communication.

I think I can safely say that the people who may need to know that a problem exists that needs a solution definitely know it now.

Let's move on and perhaps someone can update us when things change--hopefully for the better. Thanks to all who honestly and politely contributed to this discussion.

BBD

[Pete Serotta]

Oh, in that case:
I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!

:banana:

BUT YOU are MY BROTHER AND thus we share the same items about them:)