Question for Too Tall

[jeffg]

I thought TT's response, should he care to, would be of potential interest to others, so excuse the public post.

TT: I am really interested by your shift from ultras to being a "racer dude." Obviously one major component of making the switch are skillz and talent, but I am intrigued by what you would say is the biggest difference you have noticed in your training. For example, I am confused enough about what to adjust when going from a double century to one of those European mass participation events that involve lots of climbing, but are 150-250km rather than 200+ miles. Heck, on a good day a 150km ride with 14,000 feet of climbing takes me about half as long as a 200 miler with 16,000 feet. A crit must be an entirely different beast, not to mention road races, TTs, stage races, etc.

Rather than melting down the bikes, indulge your fellow cult member with some training lore! ;)

[Too Tall]

Cool question. As of late am booking some of my observations for an future article. I'll ramble some but ask questions and I'll do my best to answer. It is a really interesting topic and actually is the reason I've "officially" hung my sign as an "Ultra-Endurance Coach" with my coaching group. Ultra riders are under served in my opinion and I'm keen to pass on what I know.

Queen and my orig. goal last yr. was to make it to Nats. on tandem in the mixed category in the RR and TT. For that I engaged a really wonderful coach. There is no way we could have gotten as far as we both did without his keen insights. With little time to make mistakes and only one winter to prepare for a season of USCF racing to make us both ready our coach was an essential element. I am EVER in debt to my main man, coach and mentor.

Things change and you have to be flexible. Doreen, after preparing for two major events and countless qualifiers was burnt out and that only became evident after a very hard winter of work so we both decided to hang up the Tandem and race solos for the immed. future.

In hindsight, crossing the USA FAST and busting our humps for second in PBP was more stress than we figured. Getting old and we never did have superman genetics!?

Issue #1:
Total stress, age and past performance are good indicators of what to expect and will moderate your plan to be USCF ready.
Issue #2:
USCF coaches , in general, do not understand why Ultra riders have low HR's and high PE at threshold. Ultra riders training for USCF require special consideration. It has some to do with the fact that we train/adapt to ride at lower HRs at endurance and tempo speeds. The body adapts to darn near anything you throw at it. After training for yrs. at this steady moderatly fast riding you'll develop a rather specific set of energy systems. NOW, ask your body to do things like gulp glycogen like it's going out of style and to have a spikey HR and there will be a protest! Specificity and adaptation takes time to create and time to re-create!
Issue #3:
Ultra riders ride their bikes like we drive a car to the grocery...in the next town!!! We think nothing of going for an easy 80 miler and it is infact duck soup. A nice day on the bike, heck I'd even tell my coach I did a 6 hr. recovery ride. Ouch. As a rider you need to adjust your goals to align with what you are doing. Specificity is key. It is a rare and gifted person who can do it all. Not me I found out. This fact eluded myself and my coach because it appreared looking at the data that infact I was riding much of my time at a "recovery rate". Ehh...WRONG...Ehhhh.... What was happening is that I am so darn efficient and have the huge aerobic base that I am able to breeze along at 18 mph all day long but my energy systems are merrrily maintaining what they do best...working hard but efficiently...for Ultras. These energy systems were SUPPOSED to be adapting to USCF goals right? Ooops.

If I were coaching you as an Ultra rider who wanted to move to a full season of USCF I'd ask your goals and go from there. Fer sher a steady diet of skills learning how to do intervals, establish training zones, keep a lid on volume, keep excellent data, learn pack riding in training races, how to corner in the drops and a proper bike re-fit might be a good idea too.

Thoughts?

[RABikes2]

Oh my gosh TT, the similarities between how we respond to ultra cycling is uncanny...are we related?

Maybe not by blood, but through cycling blood? :p

May I ask who your coach was last year (your mentor)?

RA :)

[Too Tall]

Peaks Coaching Group. My guy is the founder Hunter Allan. Here is my "Bio" on the website:
http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/coaches/cycling_coach_josh.html

Hunter is one amazing guy and a renowned expert in coaching with power.

[jeffg]

since my original post just got deleted by an uncooperative server.

Anyway, my interest is the shift in training from 11+ hour events to 6-8 hour events (not counting i big quasi-pros that ride events like the Maratona in 4.5 hours, i.e. almost 20 m/hr)

Friel has an interesting assertion that rides of 5+ hours are counterproductive even for ultra riders and simply risk injury. I think Chris Kostman has a similar POV, FWIW.

It strikes me that training for ultras is treated as the handmaiden of normal racing training. Most of the principles likely remain the same; however, treating training for a 100km road race the same as a 300+km brevet seems like a mistake. Your observation about HR made me think of the following article on HR during ultra events, although it seems to have a facile view of intensity.
http://bjsm.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/37/1/89

The article resonates with my experience of having my HR drop to tempo levels while climbing at a speed that would normally be at 90%+ MHR.

Your journey from ultra ultra events to lactic acide buffering fool seems quite an adventure. Right now I do very little targeted anaerobic endurace work, though I am focusing more on threshold work (puke intensity for 12-20 minutes). I do believe I am getting faster since I broke my record on a local hill climb despite being super sore a few weeks back.

Coaching? Hopefully next year I can hop on that train. Unfortunately my Cardgirus does not work with peaks software, and I can't spring for a Velotron or SRM trainer anytime soon. If I can ride the Dolomite Marathon @ 25km/hr and/or earn a gold medal at this year's La Ventoux, then we'll see ...

:banana: :banana:

[Too Tall]

Interesting bit of writing. That rider is a pro or at least he has the chops to ride with them. His strenght is quite impressive. Is the rider Wolfgang F.?

Cardiac drift is talked about alot and training to account for it is not a good solution in my opinion. At some point you need to ditch your HR meter and go with PE and watts as that is a closer indicator of maximal sub-lactate work you are able to perform right now in the moment and THAT's very much what ultra racing is all about AND it is an excellent way to train for lower HR at higher watts.

Joe F., obviously knows his stuff. I can't comment. Lon Haldeman really knows his stuff too, I can relate to his experience and success for himself and others. For instance, Lon told me to make the 400 k ride a goal as an ride I can just "knock out". In other words, he wants me to have on the bike nutrition, equipment and fitness all aligned to such a point where "knocking out" 400k coming home and cutting the grass is not a big deal. He was right. I do not know any successful RAAM rider who does not train for the event by preparing with specificity.

Your training needs will shift to focus on less time spent at endurance and more time on improving power and watts/kg. With proper periodization you'll make the change without much fuss at all. Examples of things I'm talking about might include working on your 1/3/5 min. power and pay attention to how much time you spend at endurance zones.