OT: Espresso machines and grinders...Whatcha got?

[SoCalSteve]

Hi all,

My new favorite pastime is learning to become a barista...

So, you gotta have cool "barista" equipment, right?

My new expresso machine is a Alex Duetto II by Izzo. Dual boilers, dual PID, E61 group head, no burn frothing and hot water wands and its both plumbed for incoming water (through a filtration system) and plumbed as well for waste water.

Baratza Vario doserless grinder

I also have a .1 gram scale, digital timer, Espro automatic tamper and a bottomless portafilter.

I found 2 local micro roasters within driving distance to me and have had pretty good success with both so far.

Anyone else doing the "barista" thing? Whatcha got goin on?

Steve

[shorelocal]

Jealous of your setup. I'm still building my "bar" ... one day.

[mike p]

Well Steve I hope you feel good, you've out classed me and my moka java pot! :crap:

Mike

[SoCalSteve]

Another cool way to make coffee: Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MK8UYyoMtC4)

Part II (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKd4_-QpMUU&feature=player_detailpage)

[William]

The old Seaco Barista is working fine with a non-pressurized portafilter. I've learned how to pull some fine shots out of that machine. Last year I came across a smoking deal on a Rancilio Rocky grinder. A forum friend set me up with an iRoast2 and I have ten pounds of Sweet Maria's Espresso Monkey blend in my cupboard which I'm roasting one batch at a time. I think I'm doing well. It's cool learning the finer points of roasting...first crack, second crack, roasting profiles, etc...



William

[SoCalSteve]

The old Seaco Barista is working fine with a non-pressurized portafilter. I've learned how to pull some fine shots out of that machine. Last year I came across a smoking deal on a Rancilio Rocky grinder. A forum friend set me up with an iRoast2 and I have ten pounds of Sweet Maria's Espresso Monkey blend in my cupboard which I'm roasting one batch at a time. I think I'm doing well. It's cool learning the finer points of roasting...first crack, second crack, roasting profiles, etc...



William

I first have to learn how to use this equipment to the best of its (and my) ability....Then I may move on to roasting.

But, seriously, there are 2 KILLER micro roasting companies that I can drive to and get fresh roasted beans whenever I need them. Pretty cool for now.

Kind of like a "micro beer brewery" for coffee beans. Great concept!

[Ray]

Nice setup Steve. Not familiar with the grinder (just looked it up - it appears Baratza has upped their game from a few years ago), but the machine is nice - Chris's version of the double boiler. Which I like a whole lot better than a heat exchanger. I have a Brewtus II from Expobar, also a dual boiler. And a Macap MC4 dozerless grinder. A great consistent shot. I was seriously addicted to the whole thing about 3-4 years ago, but unlike cycling or photography or some of my other hobbies, you get to a point of being about as good as you're gonna get and then you don't have to keep obsessing over it. Now its just nice to have good gear and make great coffee, but I don't spend much time thinking about it. Took about a year to get it all dialed in to where I could forget it.

Good fresh beans are critical, but I have a couple of sources and I let the experts do the roasting. I figure I can get as good as almost any local barista at grinding, dosing, distributing, tamping, and pulling the shot, but getting really good a blending and roasting takes a lot to master and I don't think I'd ever get as good as the best commercial roasters, so I let them take care of that end of it.

-Ray

[MadRocketSci]

maybe it is the Scattante of espresso makers...but my wife has one of these:

http://www.starbucksstore.com/products/sirena.asp

and she feeds it grinds from here:

http://www.caffedeldoge.com/en/frame.htm

and likes it...

me, i don't drink the stuff unless i'm in italy, france, or amsterdam. Need the surroundings to go with it.

[Willy]

I just got a Expobar Brutus IV with a Pasquini K2 Doserless grinder - still in the learing stages towards a perfect cup. I had a Starbuck machine for many years and after a trip to Europe, I decided that I needed an upgrade. So far it's been worth it.

[Ray]

I just got a Expobar Brutus IV with a Pasquini K2 Doserless grinder - still in the learing stages towards a perfect cup. I had a Starbuck machine for many years and after a trip to Europe, I decided that I needed an upgrade. So far it's been worth it.
Cool. Is the IV plumbed or pour over? Rotary or vibe? My Brewtus II is not plumbed (which I prefer) and has a vibe pump (which I don't). I had to replace the pump a few months ago and could have upgraded to a rotary pump but it looked like a bugger of a job and it would have raised the machine another inch off the counter, which is already a tight squeeze with my cabinets. So I just put another vibe in. Not really a big deal, but its a loud sucker when it pumping...

-Ray

[93legendti]

I'm impressed by the dedication.

For me, the best tasting espresso comes from stove top espresso makers.
Here's my espresso "machine":
http://www.amazon.com/Alessi-Cupola-Stovetop-Espresso-Maker/dp/B000Z9IC10/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1295569000&sr=8-6

[mike p]

Traveling th Italy this is what you see on 90% of italian stove tops. My sister in law from Naples turned me on to them 20+ years ago. "Stovetop espresso" might not be true espresso but good enough for me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moka_(coffee_pot)#Brewing_coffee_with_a_Moka

Mike

[dookie]

long time isomac zaffiro user. bimetal analog thermostat just died, so i took the opportunity to upgrade...not to a PID, but a highly accurate digital controller with a deadband of 0.1*C (~50% less cost than a PID system).

just sold off the gaggia MDF grinder in favor of a vario. quite pleased with the improvement...aesthetics, noise, and grind quality all improved significantly.

pulled out the long neglected moka pot while the zaffiro was laid up, and i have to say i was very happy with the results. not espresso, but super rich & tasty.

as has been said: it's the rider not the bike... er, beans not the machine. fresh is imperative! conveniently, counter culture is local to me and i can get just days old roast at several groceries.

[ti_boi]

One word: NEspresso


It'll change you....


http://www.nespresso.com/uk/en/home;jsessionid=20AE21351DD864068C85579D84699F17.n ode1

[Ray]

One word: NEspresso


It'll change you....

On that we can agree. Whether its a change for the better is a whole nother question... :cool:

-Ray

[rwsaunders]

One word: NEspresso


It'll change you....


http://www.nespresso.com/uk/en/home;jsessionid=20AE21351DD864068C85579D84699F17.n ode1


I recently stayed in a hotel that had one of these units in the room. Maybe it's me, but I was impressed with the taste of the brew. Pretty simple to operate too.

[maxdog]

1968 Pavoni I refurbished and a Zassenhaus hand crank grinder (used, probably about 80 yrs old) from Orphan Espresso. Unless your going to pony up for the Mazzer, your not likely to get a better grind, and it takes less than a minute. I highly recommend Orphan Espresso. They walk the walk. I use distilled water and, thru the good graces of some of my city friends, Blue Bottle roast.

[93legendti]

Traveling th Italy this is what you see on 90% of italian stove tops. My sister in law from Naples turned me on to them 20+ years ago. "Stovetop espresso" might not be true espresso but good enough for me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moka_(coffee_pot)#Brewing_coffee_with_a_Moka

Mike
Now I know why my favorite "espresso" comes from stovetop makers-because it's not espresso! (I like espresso too...)
Never knew. Thanks for the post.

[Fixed]

I'm impressed by the dedication.

For me, the best tasting espresso comes from stove top espresso makers.
Here's my espresso "machine":
http://www.amazon.com/Alessi-Cupola-Stovetop-Espresso-Maker/dp/B000Z9IC10/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1295569000&sr=8-6
that is what i use too
why does coffee go so good with bikes
cheers

[hammerdocnomo]

Gaggia Factory 16 paired with a Quickmill Doserless grinder.
I've had this set up for 3-4 years and I pull near perfect shots every morning.
I also roast every 2 weeks usually a espresso blend of Brazilian base, Indian Malabar Robusto, a Central American and an African. The blend is roughly 60/10/10/20. I use an inexpensive Fresh Roast II and take it just into the second crack.
This results in a nice cup with a balance of bright and earthy with a rich thick crema.
The Lever Machine gives you total control of the process. The roasting part is real satisfying as well.

Cheers!

[steampunk]

good beans (ruta maya organic espresso roast), a saeco burr grinder, and a really cheap stovetop percolator seems to do the trick around the house.

although lately i've been fantasizing about the Hario drip coffee stuff.

[pjmsj21]

These are actually pretty good machines, especially if you are making drinks with milk as we do lattes primarily. There are a few weak spots in the machine and Seattle Coffee Gear is selling reconditioned machines with the weak spots corrected for $265.





maybe it is the Scattante of espresso makers...but my wife has one of these:

http://www.starbucksstore.com/products/sirena.asp

and she feeds it grinds from here:

http://www.caffedeldoge.com/en/frame.htm

and likes it...

me, i don't drink the stuff unless i'm in italy, france, or amsterdam. Need the surroundings to go with it.

[Kirk007]

vibiemme machine: /www.espressocare.com/equipment.html
nuova simonelli grinder (lusting for a baratza vario)
local organic fair trade roast: Wandering goat cupra cabra or home roasted when I remember to order the green beans from here:https://www.espressovivace.com/catalog/order.php

[stackie]

My humble set up....

La Marzocco GS3
EspressoPartsNW Jolly Roger tamper
Compak K10 WBC grinder
Mazzer Mini (decaf grinder)
Gene Cafe Roaster-soon to be upgrade to Diedrich IR-1 gas fired roaster.

Beans exclusively provided by Tom of Sweet Marias

When I win the Lotto, I'll be getting a Kees Van Der Westen Idrocompresso.

Jon

[Ray]

My humble set up....

La Marzocco GS3
EspressoPartsNW Jolly Roger tamper
Compak K10 WBC grinder
Mazzer Mini (decaf grinder)
Gene Cafe Roaster-soon to be upgrade to Diedrich IR-1 gas fired roaster.

Beans exclusively provided by Tom of Sweet Marias

When I win the Lotto, I'll be getting a Kees Van Der Westen Idrocompresso.

Jon
OK, we have a winner!!!

I was wondering if anyone was gonna toss the GS3 out there. What the hell is an idrocompresso that outdoes a GS3? I don't personally have the counter space for the GS3 even if I could begin to justify the cost...

And a Mazzer Mini for your backup/decaf grinder. Holy mother of....

-Ray

[hammerdocnomo]

Stackie has my vote!!!

He must drink it too, he posted at 2:30am!

Congrats. :beer:

[William]

I first have to learn how to use this equipment to the best of its (and my) ability....Then I may move on to roasting.

But, seriously, there are 2 KILLER micro roasting companies that I can drive to and get fresh roasted beans whenever I need them. Pretty cool for now.

Kind of like a "micro beer brewery" for coffee beans. Great concept!

I find that once you get the hang of roasting, what you end up with are beans that are fresher and taste just as good or better then most coffee haus roasts. Right now I enjoy Sweet Maria's Espresso Monkey Blend. Great body, balanced between high and low tones, chocolate roast flavors, and slightly rustic fruited accent notes. The roast goal is taking it to the beginning stages of 2nd crack. A wonderful blend. And, the bonus is I get fresher, better tasting espresso at about 1/2 the cost per pound then buying it from a local roaster. Here is a video that I was fooling around with for another forum. Color is slightly off due to the lighting. Because of the smoke I roast out in my shop and since it's not heated I had to come up with a way to better control the ambient temperature during the winter time. It's like being a mad scientist creating a wonderful outcome. :)

http://vimeo.com/16217085

I purchase the green beans in ten pound lots which keeps the price down.



William

[crownjewelwl]

On that we can agree. Whether its a change for the better is a whole nother question... :cool:

-Ray

Everything in life is a trade-off. I think the Nespresso system is a great compromise. While the ritual is nice, sometimes you want a quick shot.

I've tried the other pods like Illy e.s.e. (?) and I think the Nespresso is far superior in taste and use.

[drbob]

Best taste/dollar value/ease of use.........no comparison...Nespresso :beer:

[Ray]

Everything in life is a trade-off. I think the Nespresso system is a great compromise. While the ritual is nice, sometimes you want a quick shot.
Agreed. We all choose different things in life to be elitist snobs about and which to be functional about. For some its bikes and they'll ride nothing less than a Meivici (I ride a highly functional but relatively old tech Spectrum ti). For some its watches (I use nothing less than a Timex Ironman!). Or cars (I drive Hondas). And for some its coffee. I always grind and pull "real" shots at home and I'm an elitist jerk about it, but part of that is because I have plenty of time to do it right. Whatever anyone else wants to do is great with me, as long as I can still be an elitist snob. I pride myself on never going into a Starbucks, but if I'm stuck someplace for an extended period and its my only option, I'll stoop. Not judging others for using Nepresso anymore than I want to be judged for my Timex or Honda, but I'm not gonna go there, or anywhere near there...

-Ray

[Ray]

Best taste/dollar value/ease of use.........no comparison...Nespresso :beer:
Best ride/dollar value/ease of use......low end Cannondale with an electric motor assist.

Just sayin'...

Nothing wrong with any of these choices, but those who are snobs about one thing should be open to others being snobs about other things! I'm a snob about very few things, but when I am, I go in whole hog.... :cool:

-Ray

[bigflax925]

Here's my Victoria Arduino Venus.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e332/bigflax925/For%20Sale/Arduino/Old%20scans/7a_3.jpg

Although for a great, quick and easy everyday brew, I've got a Saeco Talea Touch.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000W26PTG.01-1059485061.MAIN._SX300_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

[bostondrunk]

I find that once you get the hang of roasting, what you end up with are beans that are fresher and taste just as good or better then most coffee haus roasts. Right now I enjoy Sweet Maria's Espresso Monkey Blend. Great body, balanced between high and low tones, chocolate roast flavors, and slightly rustic fruited accent notes. The roast goal is taking it to the beginning stages of 2nd crack. A wonderful blend. And, the bonus is I get fresher, better tasting espresso at about 1/2 the cost per pound then buying it from a local roaster.



William

William,
What are you using these days as a roaster??
I'm wanting a hottop...but $$$.....Behmor looks nice, but lots of reports of how easy it is for it to catch on fire....

[mschol17]

Nespresso isn't that cheap in the long run...

I have a Quickmill Andreja Premium with a Macap MX (Super Jolly Clone) grinder. It's far nicer than my barista skills.

[William]

William,
What are you using these days as a roaster??
I'm wanting a hottop...but $$$.....Behmor looks nice, but lots of reports of how easy it is for it to catch on fire....

Hey BD, go back and check my last post. I edited it to include a video of the roaster I'm using right now. I got the iRoast2 from a forum friend and it works quite well.




William

[forrestw]

1968 Pavoni I refurbished and a Zassenhaus hand crank grinder (used, probably about 80 yrs old) from Orphan Espresso. Unless your going to pony up for the Mazzer, your not likely to get a better grind, and it takes less than a minute. I highly recommend Orphan Espresso. They walk the walk. I use distilled water and, thru the good graces of some of my city friends, Blue Bottle roast.

Sweet! that's what I want when I grow up. I ponied up for a Pasquini livia 90 manual 8 years ago along w/ a used burr grinder I got off ebay (and had to modify / have to manage some to get a good grind). They make beautiful coffee together, it's probably time for me to do some maintenance on the boiler tho :-/

Came back from a trip to SF with a week's worth of Blue Bottle beans, made my machine very happy indeed.

[93legendti]

that is what i use too
why does coffee go so good with bikes
cheers
It's rocket fuel! When I want to have a good morning ride, I break out the stovetop Moka.

[AngryScientist]

Agreed. We all choose different things in life to be elitist snobs about and which to be functional about. For some its bikes and they'll ride nothing less than a Meivici (I ride a highly functional but relatively old tech Spectrum ti). For some its watches (I use nothing less than a Timex Ironman!). Or cars (I drive Hondas). And for some its coffee. I always grind and pull "real" shots at home and I'm an elitist jerk about it, but part of that is because I have plenty of time to do it right. Whatever anyone else wants to do is great with me, as long as I can still be an elitist snob. I pride myself on never going into a Starbucks, but if I'm stuck someplace for an extended period and its my only option, I'll stoop. Not judging others for using Nepresso anymore than I want to be judged for my Timex or Honda, but I'm not gonna go there, or anywhere near there...

-Ray


well said Ray. i would some day like to have a great espresso set-up, or as my parents call it, demitasse coffee. i have a very humble burr grinder and espresso machine that i use on the weekends. it's very good, but i know it could be better.

you really do have to compromise somewhere. i'll only drive a german car, wear a swiss watch and ride italian components, that leaves the fund for a $6k espresso machine severely lacking. maybe someday.

that said, there is a local breakfast joint that is also a bean roaster, that make simply excellent espresso and coffee with fresh house roasted beans, that certainly takes the edge off, and they are on my local biking loop!

[crownjewelwl]

anyone want/need one of these? i have a lightly used one that is now in the cupboard gathering dust. pm me

[William]

I know my machine isn't the best, but with a good grinder, proper technique, and darn good beans I can produce a good shot. I'm sure it could be better but I'll up-grade when the time comes.



William

[stackie]

Idrocompresso is custom lever model from Kees Van Der Westen in Netherlands. It is a work of art. They have one at Blue Bottle in SF ferry building. Best antoccino I've ever had!

Home roasters are frustrating me due to the reliance on electricity and their miserable durability. I roast about 3 pounds a week and have burned up an iRoast as well as one genecafe already. I'm going to go the gas fired route and basically go semi pro. I figure I'll be roasting about 8 pounds a week. I'll use 3 and sell the remaining coffee at $10 for 12-14 oz. I won't make a living at it, but I can offset the cost of the professional gas fired roaster

I can't believe that that Vic Arduino is being replaced by a Saeco. That's just plain wrong. That is like having a Richard Sachsen in your garage and riding a Trek Y foil because it's easier to clean up after your ride.

Jon

[dana_e]

I got this one, non-manual. fully automatic

push, push, amp

Costco/ maybe not barista approved, but you can adjust amount of coffe used and the amount of water.

maing you can make it more american style for the old folks and then give strong shots for the expresso addicts

Has lasted 3 plus years/

[William]

Idrocompresso is custom lever model from Kees Van Der Westen in Netherlands. It is a work of art. They have one at Blue Bottle in SF ferry building. Best antoccino I've ever had!

Home roasters are frustrating me due to the reliance on electricity and their miserable durability. I roast about 3 pounds a week and have burned up an iRoast as well as one genecafe already. I'm going to go the gas fired route and basically go semi pro. I figure I'll be roasting about 8 pounds a week. I'll use 3 and sell the remaining coffee at $10 for 12-14 oz. I won't make a living at it, but I can offset the cost of the professional gas fired roaster...



Jon

I would agree that if you are roasting over three pounds a week then an iRoast or iRoast2 aren't the machines for you. The recommended batch sizes are too small for that on a daily/weekly basis. I would agree it's time to step up for that amount. For my needs I have had nothing but good results with the iRoast2.



William

[fiamme red]

For my needs I have had nothing but good results with the iRoast2.At any rate, it's a better birthday gift for your wife than an iRon. ;)

[jdhansen63]

Rancilio Silva V2 (single boiler) and Rocky grinder. Not as cool as a Slayer, but it makes a great shot if you know how to handle it.

[oldguy00]

Rancilio Silva V2 (single boiler) and Rocky grinder. Not as cool as a Slayer, but it makes a great shot if you know how to handle it.

I had the exact same setup a while ago. Very nice and capable.

[stackie]

Oohh, you said Slayer. Those are way cool also. That seems to be the "new" direction in espresso machines, at least according to the Slayer folks. Variable pressure infusion. Seems like it would be like a true lever machine (vs spring lever). I sometimes play with a Gaggia Achille for lever fun. Also, a nice little machine to take on road trip vacations.

Jon

[allenwhy]

jon,

la marzocco's strada has variable pump profiling without the complications of the slayer; it doesn't rust.

individual boilers for each group is awesome also, plus you know la marzoccos has tons and tons of r&d plus history of espresso machine manufacture under it's belt. also, and not to be discounted, you can actually order parts for your machine. all of these are not present when owning a slayer.

fwiw giving a barista the ability to control pressure will only make espresso in cafes less consistent and more likely to be really really bad.

my two cents.

[Samster]

expobar lever, rancilio rocky (doserless).

[Louis]

They say caffeine is addictive. You guys are proof of that.

At least your ritual doesn't involve extracting blood, mixing it with dope and re-injecting it back into a vein. ;)

[jdhansen63]

I belive the guys at Slayer started out at la marcocco (might have been synesso).

jon,

la marzocco's strada has variable pump profiling without the complications of the slayer; it doesn't rust.

individual boilers for each group is awesome also, plus you know la marzoccos has tons and tons of r&d plus history of espresso machine manufacture under it's belt. also, and not to be discounted, you can actually order parts for your machine. all of these are not present when owning a slayer.

fwiw giving a barista the ability to control pressure will only make espresso in cafes less consistent and more likely to be really really bad.

my two cents.

[stackie]

allen,

La marzocco is a great company. Great products and amazing innovation. however, much like many of our framebuilders here and at vsalon, others, like Slayer and Van Der Westen are building true art. one off pieces.

I agree that adding variable pressure profiling will decrease consistency, but it will also allow the experimentation that is required to attain the god shot. I used to have a Fiorenzato hx machine. I probably had some shots on that machine that may have been better than I've attained on the GS3. However, I also had many that were way worse. The GS3 allows for great precision in your shots, but also a slow curve toward the "god shot".

Just different thoughts. Espresso, like many things, is as much art as science.

Jon

[gearguywb]

You guys are killing me! I finally bought a good drip machine (Moccamaster) this past year and love the coffee but I am feeling way inadequate after reading through this thread. Off to Ebay.....

[rwsaunders]

Thanks...great thread...I just spit at Starbucks as I drove by and my daughter called me a coffee snob.

[Lewym]

Rancilio Silva V2 (single boiler) and Rocky grinder. Not as cool as a Slayer, but it makes a great shot if you know how to handle it.

Miss Silvia is an excellent machine. The perfect gateway drug to espresso excellence. She served me well and we shared many good memories.

My current set up:

Fiorenzato Bricoletta (plumbed)
Rocky (still going strong)

[mack]

well I must chime in here.....bikes and beans make my 'topics' top five and when you combine the two.....we're certainly on the path to somewhere special!
Fiorenzato Bricoletta with reservoir (which I also prefer over plumbed), Mazzer super jolly grinder (awesome contribution to great coffee/espresso) and a great, local roaster who roasts a dozen free trade and organic blends/variations every tuesday. My son is a barista at this coffee house and we'll get beans every tues, wed, maybe thursday, but beans roasted even one week old....big difference, I lika them freshly roasted!
Cheers -mack

[spiderman]

it began leaking to a point beyond use...
it's replacement i've been very happy with: the elektra micro casa lever
in a very nice brass and copper that matches our copper backsplash
on the espresso bar. i like the simplicity, quietness of the unit
and the fact that it's unplumbed...almost like running the bike fixed!

[mister]

it began leaking to a point beyond use...
it's replacement i've been very happy with: the elektra micro casa lever
in a very nice brass and copper that matches our copper backsplash
on the espresso bar. i like the simplicity, quietness of the unit
and the fact that it's unplumbed...almost like running the bike fixed!

my gaggia factory started that leaking thing too.
and the lever didn't move too smooth.
$40 on a seal kit and about 30minutes of my time and it's working great again...

[thenewguy11]

Its always amazing to read about the intensity people put into things - bikes, beer, coffee, etc. I love the passion even if I don't necessarily share it. Coffee is one of this things that I appreciate when it's good but still dig when it comes from 7-11.

And I've found that it's impossible to replicate the sublime taste of espresso from anyplace in Italy anywhere else. But thats probably in my head.

[SoCalSteve]

So, I decided to plumb my new toy through my washing machines cold water spigot and drain it through the washing machine drain system.

Here is the filtration system I came up with that hides behind my dryer.

Pictures of the whole set up to follow soon.

Steve

[97CSI]

Another cool way to make coffee: Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MK8UYyoMtC4)

Part II (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKd4_-QpMUU&feature=player_detailpage)I was going to look and then thought that these might involve coffee beans and feral cats so decided that I like my regular coffee too much. Might put me off.

[crankles]

I'm a little late to the party, but I'm running a plumbed in Unic Diva (circa 1994), a Mazzer Jolly and a Macap spring load tamper (the hand version). I have other tampers, but this thing allows for consistant tamps whether the barista is me, my wife or my 8 yr old.

My next machine (if the diva ever dies) will be a Dual + PID. I had a PID'd miss silvia at work and it convinced me that constant temp was key.

There's no way I'd try roasting.
I have Blue bottle in my backyard. (as well as Sweet Marias) but I know some of the roasters personally and I just ain't got what it takes.

...same reason I don't try welding my own frames. I can wrench with the best of them, but I know my limitations.

[MadRocketSci]

interesting...PID control is a fancy upgrade?

in this day and age, they should put PID in every machine...it's like the 7005 of control algorithms....cheap, easy to design, and does the job. what do lower end models use? analog on-off switching with hysteresis?

seriously...would take one junior controls guy with embedded programming experience about a week (ok maybe two) to get it designed, prototyped, and tested....

[crankles]

interesting...PID control is a fancy upgrade?

in this day and age, they should put PID in every machine...it's like the 7005 of control algorithms....cheap, easy to design, and does the job.

agreed.

what do lower end models use? analog on-off switching with hysteresis?

Basically yes.

seriously...would take one junior controls guy with embedded programming experience about a week (ok maybe two) to get it designed, prototyped, and tested....

Again, I'm with you...It was no biggy to PID the silvia....and quite a few pro-sumer machines now have them. But it's not like they are super cheap. My Watlow 935 was $150. that's a hefty percentage of a $500 machine.

No decent commercial machine is without them these days.

[Geeeewiz]

On that we can agree. Whether its a change for the better is a whole nother question... :cool:

-Ray

I have a Nespresso, but making 4 - 5 a day gets quite costly. Switched to a stove top Italian Job and use the Nespresso for frothing only. Quite an expensive frother.

[Charles M]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs505.snc3/26537_1338144127691_1053776644_31055276_7755877_n. jpg

Double shot in the morning air.

Grin time at work lasts for hours.

No headache or crankyness late in the day.

3 bucks a gallon vs 5 bucks a cup.

[LegendRider]

Chris King espresso tamper:

http://chrisking.com/store/tampers

[William]

Chris King espresso tamper:

http://chrisking.com/store/tampers


Product diversity can be a very cool thing. :cool: I like!




William

[Geeeewiz]

Chris King espresso tamper:

http://chrisking.com/store/tampers

Very nice. On the bean note: My teammate recently did the Tour of RWANDA and brought back some amazing beans. Unlike any I have had before. Too bad I already ripped through two bags of beans. Man I miss those.

[SoCalSteve]

My set up

[crankles]

My set up

I guess I need to take some pictures...

But Steve, that is FAR too clean. throw some grinds around wouldya ;)

[Ozz]

interesting...PID control is a fancy upgrade?......
What is a "PID"?

SoCalSteve....cool set up....something else to lust for. And here I was dreaming about your Look 595! ;)

[SoCalSteve]

What is a "PID"?

SoCalSteve....cool set up....something else to lust for. And here I was dreaming about your Look 595! ;)


Fancy explanation of PID (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller)

But, basically it controls the temperature of the 2 boilers as they require different temperatures. Around 200* for the espresso group head and 250* for the steam wand.

As for the Look 595, its still for sale. I havent done much lately to promote the sale of it....Been too busy making cappuccino's!

[Ray]

Steve's is too new to let the funk accumulate. Here's a lived in espresso setup. I give it a good cleaning every couple of days, but this must have been an off day. :cool:

PIDs are cool but much less critical on a double boiler since the brew boiler isn't always heating up to make steam and then cooling back down to the right brew temp. Exact temp isn't critical for steam - it just has to be hot enough. I had a PID on my Silvia when I had it, but my Expobar is incredibly stable stable and consistent without one - far better than the Siliva ever was with one. I don't believe they're recommended at all for Heat Exchanger machines - I don't remember the specifics but I recall reading a lot about it back when coffee was a hobby instead just a really fine drink! That said, PIDs are pretty much standard equipment on most nice machines these days - I don't think I could buy an Expobar Brewtus without one today, whether its really necessary or not...

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5260/5391016186_5ab34deb8b_o.jpg

-Ray

[Ozz]

Fancy explanation of PID (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller)

But, basically it controls the temperature of the 2 boilers as they require different temperatures. Around 200* for the espresso group head and 250* for the steam wand.

As for the Look 595, its still for sale. I havent done much lately to promote the sale of it....Been too busy making cappuccino's!
Thanks.....I was thinking it meant "Plumbed in Device" or such.....but the talk about algorithims didn't make sense to to me... :cool: All good now.

:beer:

[MadRocketSci]

What is a "PID"?

SoCalSteve....cool set up....something else to lust for. And here I was dreaming about your Look 595! ;)

P - Proportional
I - Integral
D - Derivative

Put it all together, you get PID Control.

You get an error signal E = temp u want - temp measured. U want to make that go to 0.0 (or close enough)

you need a signal to drive the heater to tell it how many watts to draw, or current, or whatever. U compose that heater signal A with

A = E*Kp + (integral of E)*Ki + (derivative of E)*Kd

where Kp, Ki, and Kd are gains you design to get the right response.

the proportional term gets you moving quickly in the right direction to zero out E

the integral term helps you hit the command (ie, drive E to zero) accurately

the derivative term damps the response so you don't over/under shoot the commanded temp too much...

the form of A is different in practice, but the idea is the same. also, there need to be scale factors to get the correct response from the heater.

easy...cheap....

[crankles]

P - Proportional
I - Integral
D - Derivative

Put it all together, you get PID Control.

You get an error signal E = temp u want - temp measured. U want to make that go to 0.0 (or close enough)

you need a signal to drive the heater to tell it how many watts to draw, or current, or whatever. U compose that heater signal A with

A = E*Kp + (integral of E)*Ki + (derivative of E)*Kd

where Kp, Ki, and Kd are gains you design to get the right response.

the proportional term gets you moving quickly in the right direction to zero out E

the integral term helps you hit the command (ie, drive E to zero) accurately

the derivative term damps the response so you don't over/under shoot the commanded temp too much...

the form of A is different in practice, but the idea is the same. also, there need to be scale factors to get the correct response from the heater.

easy...cheap....


um...right...what he said. What do I know about physics anyway...I'm a chemist.

One of the things I liked best about the PID was the ease of adjusting temp.
for different beans. My two favorite blends had an "ideal" temp diff. of 6 degrees. It made a difference. Pull one at the the wrong temp and gone went all the chocolatey goodness. Pull the other at the wrong temp and BLAH.

[jdhansen63]

Chris King espresso tamper:

http://chrisking.com/store/tampers

Cool, but I prefer the feel of wood. Reg Barber makes excellent tampers.

[gearguywb]

Looking for good grinder recommendations. I us a MoccaMaster (a pot per morning) and could use a grinder upgrade. At some point (when I can find something reasonable) I would like to get a 'spresso machine, but that is in the future. What say you?

Can't go too wild right now...NAHBS is coming :)

[dookie]

Looking for good grinder recommendations. I us a MoccaMaster (a pot per morning) and could use a grinder upgrade.

Do-it-all (as in super-fine turkish/espresso all the way to gravelly press-pot) grinders that do-it-all well, are rare. A great espresso grinder might suck for drip/press, etc.

The Baratza Vario (~$400) is one of the rare ones. It lacks the tank-like construction of the prosumer grinders, but has big ceramic burrs, is quiet and fast, and does very well at all grind levels. Got mine used on the 'Bay for ~$200. Mark Prince says so... (http://baratza.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/Baratza-Grinders-SM-3.pdf)

Another way geeky coffee geek toy: calibrated tamper (http://www.idrinkcoffee.com/Concept_Art_Technic_Adjustable_Pressure_Tamper_R_p/ca-tec-red.htm)

[Samster]

just found SoCalSteve on another forum (home-barista) and am resurrecting this old thread...

here's my "upgrade" machine.

[SoCalSteve]

So, since I first started this thread, I have updated my grinder to this one:

http://versalab.com/server/coffee/grindernew.html

And, my barrista skills have vastly improved over the last few months. I still can't do latte art well, but the latte's are still pretty delicious!

Funny how Samster found me on another Forum too.

[Samster]

So, since I first started this thread, I have updated my grinder to this one:
http://versalab.com/server/coffee/grindernew.html
the versalab is a beautiful grinder. i'm currently rehabilitating a macap m4 to hold me over for either an k30 (mahlkoenig) or a k10 (compak). don't like the mazzers much. the timer thing bums me out.

latte art looks good, but i prefer a classic cappuccino or even a macchiato. generally drink more espressos.

[AngryScientist]

just found SoCalSteve on another forum (home-barista) and am resurrecting this old thread...

here's my "upgrade" machine.

sweet. i desperately need an upgrade myself.

how difficult is it to keep this thing clean on a daily use basis? that's always been sort of a detractor for me, the cleaning of "stuff". that, and the place down the street from me pulls awesome espresso shots.

[Samster]

sweet. i desperately need an upgrade myself.

how difficult is it to keep this thing clean on a daily use basis? that's always been sort of a detractor for me, the cleaning of "stuff". that, and the place down the street from me pulls awesome espresso shots.

all espresso machines are work, both in cleaning and maintenance. but so far, it seems easier than my last machine (expobar). on a daily basis, i just brush under the portafilter lock and run water thru the screen.

also, espresso is a messy business in terms of grinds and some splatter if you miscalc on dose or tamp on a bottomless portafilter...

if you're really ocd, recommend nespresso. i think it's actually good enough for daily consumption.

what do you currently use?

[stackie]

Hella upgrade Steve. Versalab? Shiite!

Anyway, Samster, nice GS3. I wish I had waited and gotten the paddle. But, I jumped when the prices were good.

I have the Compak K10 and love it. Big conical burrs, very even grind and no timer :) They are coming out with K10 fresh without doser but it is nearly 2K! I can deal with the doser. I generally make more than one espresso per session anyway.

Jon

[Rueda Tropical]

Don't have the time or money for the real deal. I needed something cheap, fast and clean that could produce a decent cup consistently as I race out the door. So after looking at the newest Nespresso and some ESE machines I got the Illy iperEspresso Y1. A pod system like the Nespresso it doesn't produce something on the level of a good barista with fresh roast beans but it's surprisingly good considering the price ($125) and the ease of use. Very happy with it.

[BillG]

So, since I first started this thread, I have updated my grinder to this one:

http://versalab.com/server/coffee/grindernew.html

And, my barrista skills have vastly improved over the last few months. I still can't do latte art well, but the latte's are still pretty delicious!

Funny how Samster found me on another Forum too.

What do you think of the Versalab?

[SoCalSteve]

What do you think of the Versalab?

Easy to use, consistent grinds and the espresso does taste better. And, it's a beautiful piece of industrial art. I'm very happy with it!

[BillG]

Easy to use, consistent grinds and the espresso does taste better. And, it's a beautiful piece of industrial art. I'm very happy with it!

Glad to hear it. I've read online that it can be inconsistent, but those reviews were mostly from a few years back.

[Birddog]

Can anyone comment on the Francis Francis X1 from Illya? I can get a deal on one used but know nothing about it.
TIA Birddog

[SoCalSteve]

Glad to hear it. I've read online that it can be inconsistent, but those reviews were mostly from a few years back.

All those bugs have been fixed. And, the complaints mostly came from one guy who got a pre- production model and is very vocal. He was given the opportunity to have it sent back and rehabbed for free and he turned it down and instead bad mouthed the company even more.

It's very, very consistent, actually. Much more so than the Vario that it replaced. Lots of threads on the issues with the Vario...

[Samster]

I wish I had waited and gotten the paddle.
i toiled between paddle and auto. ended up with the paddle after deciding it was what i wanted and was willing to put up with o-ring and vacuum breaker issues. however, the auto sounds more trouble-free, and simpler. pre-infusion is a theoretical debate without resolve. and honestly, black cat is as problematic on this machine as it was on my old machine.

sometimes i wonder if i should have just gone with the auto version...

[Matt-H]

Amongst some truly beautiful setups here, I am humbled to revive this thread with my recent acquisition, but my espresso budget is lean and I'm still excited!

I always wanted to try a Silvia as my first machine, but I got a great deal on a Gaggia Classic that I couldn't resist. Maybe not quite the looker as the Rancilio, but it seems like a very capable machine for a first-timer.

I now need an equally capable grinder to go with it. A new Baratza virtuoso preciso seems like a winner, but is a bit more than I wanted to spend. A used Vario, Rocky or something similar would be ideal. If anyone has any leads on a solid used grinder, a pm would be greatly appreciated. Staring at this thing and not being able to use it is like having a Meivici (ok a Colorado) with no wheelset sitting in my basement.

[goonster]

Staring at this thing and not being able to use it
Of course you can use it. There's no substitute for a good grinder, but ground Illy or something from a local shop will get you started.

[Matt-H]

You're right, of course. My point was just that it's all part of the fun.

[tuscanyswe]

http://www.rapha.cc/rocket-espresso-for-rapha

:hello: :)

[HomardBreton]

... to my opinion - a good coffee is the most important thing. And you´ve to grind it yourself. It has to be fresh. I´m resting twice a year in the Piemonte for cycling and culinary purposes. It´s a good place to get excellent coffee. And: I´ve tested many machines, but my 30-year-old ( VERY VERY simple ) Gaggia makes the best espresso / coffee; better than all the full-automatized, multi-comfort Saeco, Jura or whatelse machines...

[SoCalSteve]

Of course you can use it. There's no substitute for a good grinder, but ground Illy or something from a local shop will get you started.

The problem is, once the beans have been ground, they loose their freshness very, very quickly (like within a 1/2 an hour). Better to wait and get a very simple grinder (even a hand grinder) than to buy and use stale beans....IMHO.

[false_Aest]

Steve,

I'm pretty amazed that you've delved into espresso.

I know how clean you like things.

I have an image of you cleaning up after grinding and tamping with one of those keyboard vacuums and a lint roller.

Next time I come over I'm making you make me one of these espresso wonders!

[SoCalSteve]

Steve,

I'm pretty amazed that you've delved into espresso.

I know how clean you like things.

I have an image of you cleaning up after grinding and tamping with one of those keyboard vacuums and a lint roller.

Next time I come over I'm making you make me one of these espresso wonders!

I do have one, funny you should mention it. Problem is, the grounds are so fine that they just get pushed through the vaccuum and end up on the floor... :crap:

Anytime, Tommy, Anytime...Mi Casa es Su Casa!

[Samster]

aaahhhh. the m3 has arrived. it is simpler and cleaner than the old macap (which is now backup.) the gs3 is happier now.

[froze]

I had a Gaggia but the pump quit after 5 years, so instead of buying another expensive one I got the Mr Coffee pump Espresso maker for $70. And you know, the coffee taste the same! But I heard those pumps only last an average of 5 years so why spend $350 or more on a coffee maker if it's not going to last.

Then I bought a stove top espresso cooker for camping for $10, the first time I used it camping the coffee tasted better and stronger flavored then any of the espresso machines I had. Not sure why, because supposedly in order to be a true espresso it has to be pumped at 19 bar not boiled.

Then for a coffee grinder I found a brand new, in the unopened box with the labels attached to the sides a 1968 Kitchenaid By Hobart electric mill that will grind to almost powder and all the way to course for $5 at a garage sale (they got it as a wedding present in 68 and never opened it!). So I use that to grind beans.
Here's what it looks like: http://www.ebay.com/itm/KITCHENAID-MODEL-KCM-COFFEE-MILL-VINTAGE-by-Hobart-/180712025747?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a1346ae93#ht_499wt_1154

I only use filtered water to make my coffee.

Then I thought about giving this thing a try: http://www.amazon.com/Aerobie-80R08-AeroPress-Coffee-Espresso/dp/B000GXZ2GS The reviews on this thing are all 5 stars; it's similar to a French Press but different in the way it's filtered. So when the Mr Coffee goes to the land fill I think I'll try this.

[Ray]

Wow, just saw this thread for the first time since early in the year. Yous' guys have gone in whole hog! That Versalab looks insane! Coffee was one of those things I got really obsessed with for the better part of a year as I finally got a Silvia, learned to use it, learned its limitations, and moved up to a double boiler. And did the same with a Rocky before moving up to a Macap. I used to hang on Home Barista and Coffee Geeks, etc.

But once I got to a place where I was making consistently great espresso, the obsession/hobby part of it fell away, I stopped worrying about the state of the art, and just enjoy the drinks. So now I see all of this new gear and realize the technology has moved well beyond my desires and finances, but that's OK. I still make a better espresso than any barista working in any shop within about 15-20 miles (there are a couple of good ones in Philly, but that's too far for me to go for coffee!). I'm sure there are other good and better home baristas, but I can't just stop in for a drink! My friends would rather drink mine than the swill from the local shops. Its good enough for me, so I stopped with all of the gear.

But I'm sure if my machine ever dies, I'll probably check back in on the state of the art. But I'm not sure why that would happen - they're just an assembly of parts and some of them need replacing periodically, so it should be rebuildable pretty much for eternity, or the rest of my life anyway.

Still, its cool to see what you guys are buying. Some nice gear here, as I would expect!

-Ray

[forrestw]

But I heard those pumps only last an average of 5 years so why spend $350 or more on a coffee maker if it's not going to last.
...
I only use filtered water to make my coffee.

Mine's been in operation for 10 years now, can't see any difference in operation. I've used filtered tap water the entire time.

[Ray]

But I heard those pumps only last an average of 5 years so why spend $350 or more on a coffee maker if it's not going to last.
Pumps and OPV's fail all the time - 5 years is actually a LONG time for a pump, if its getting much use. Their job is a tough one and their life span isn't that great. I have a pretty good quality double boiler espresso machine and I've already replaced the pump once and the OPV twice in less than four years. And I'm gonna have to do it periodically. Its part of owning nice gear. You don't have to trash the machine. You wouldn't trash your Serotta if a spoke broke or because it needs new chains and tires periodically. Nice stuff needs to be maintained - true of coffee machines as well as bikes, cars, whatever.

-Ray

[froze]

Pumps and OPV's fail all the time - 5 years is actually a LONG time for a pump, if its getting much use. Their job is a tough one and their life span isn't that great. I have a pretty good quality double boiler espresso machine and I've already replaced the pump once and the OPV twice in less than four years. And I'm gonna have to do it periodically. Its part of owning nice gear. You don't have to trash the machine. You wouldn't trash your Serotta if a spoke broke or because it needs new chains and tires periodically. Nice stuff needs to be maintained - true of coffee machines as well as bikes, cars, whatever.

-Ray

I read that average figure somewhere on the internet several years ago. And I only use filtered water.

I contacted the manufacture when the pump died and they quoted a price that was as much as new one, so that's why I trashed it.

[Ray]

I read that average figure somewhere on the internet several years ago. And I only use filtered water.

I contacted the manufacture when the pump died and they quoted a price that was as much as new one, so that's why I trashed it.
That's why you have to buy really expensive espresso machines - that way the cost of replacing a pump is faaaaar less than replacing the whole machine. Somehow I've worked it out that this saves me money... :cool:

OK, maybe not, but the espresso is REALLY good!

-Ray

[froze]

That's why you have to buy really expensive espresso machines - that way the cost of replacing a pump is faaaaar less than replacing the whole machine. Somehow I've worked it out that this saves me money... :cool:

OK, maybe not, but the espresso is REALLY good!

-Ray

Yeah, that's what I was thinking that it wouldn't save me money. I could spend $1,000 for a really nice machine and still have the pump fail in 5 years, then pay lets just say $250 for a new pump part...or I could spend $70 to $100 for a cheap one and have it last lets say 5 years. Which means I would have to buy roughly 14 machines over the next 70 years to make it worth it and still not be worth it. Besides I don't have 70 years left.

Like I said in another post I'm seriously thinking about getting the Aeropress, a French press makes very good coffee, this Aeropress makes it even better. And that thing is less then $30, I can really save money with that.

I know I'm cheap about certain things, I guess that's why I don't have any personal debt.

[Ray]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking that it wouldn't save me money. I could spend $1,000 for a really nice machine and still have the pump fail in 5 years, then pay lets just say $250 for a new pump part...or I could spend $70 to $100 for a cheap one and have it last lets say 5 years. Which means I would have to buy roughly 14 machines over the next 70 years to make it worth it and still not be worth it. Besides I don't have 70 years left.

Like I said in another post I'm seriously thinking about getting the Aeropress, a French press makes very good coffee, this Aeropress makes it even better. And that thing is less then $30, I can really save money with that.

I know I'm cheap about certain things, I guess that's why I don't have any personal debt.
I get your logic and I'm not arguing, but pumps don't cost that much. More like $50-60 every few years. Having them installed can be expensive but its not hard to DIY with most stuff on an espresso machine once you get under the hood a couple of times.

I drive cheap cars, buy cheap clothes, kids college is paid off, and our condo is paid off, but I drink good coffee and eat well and ride nice bikes. No debt here either anymore. Its all a matter of priorities.

-Ray

[froze]

I get your logic and I'm not arguing, but pumps don't cost that much. More like $50-60 every few years. Having them installed can be expensive but its not hard to DIY with most stuff on an espresso machine once you get under the hood a couple of times.

I drive cheap cars, buy cheap clothes, kids college is paid off, and our condo is paid off, but I drink good coffee and eat well and ride nice bikes. No debt here either anymore. Its all a matter of priorities.

-Ray

Gagga quoted me $110 for the pump plus shipping...I kind of over exaggerated to get the point across. I got kind of pissed that it lasted just 5 years; so when I got the Mr Coffee unit and couldn't tell the difference in taste I tossed the Gagga.

I have another hobby besides biking and that's a small car collection and between the two, especially the cars, so I have a hobby budget so I don't over spend. So fancy coffee machines don't stand a chance to get into this hobby budget.