Are you one of "those" cyclists???

[Ti Designs]

Not so long ago, on my way home from a ride, a woman driving a car pulled up next to me while I was waiting for a light to change, rolled down her window and started accusing me of being one of those cyclist with no respect for the law or other drivers. She went on to accuse me of running traffic lights, riding on sidewalks and riding on the wrong side of the road - all while I was waiting at a traffic light, on the street, on the right side. When the light changed she drove off, the guy in the car behind her rolled down his window and said "I noticed you were stopped" as he went by. If it were just that woman I would say she needs to clean her glasses, her car windows or take a few anger management classes, but it's not. A few years ago I was riding with my girlfriend when a driver yelled in a very angry voice "single file" - it's the one bicycle related law they know. Well, they don't really know the law, they just like to yell "single file!". We were on a tandem. Where does such blind anger come from?

[William]

They feel safe venting in their steel cocoon. It's easy to take out your life's frustrations on someone who will disappear shortly in the rear view mirror.




William

[AngryScientist]

Where does such blind anger come from?

a lot of cagers are angered by ANY inconvenience to them. i was at dunkin doughnuts this morning and an overweight woman who was an obvious smoker was complaining loudly on line that the staff was moving too slow, and "what was taking so long". the 2 minute wait for her extra frosting doughnut was more than she was prepared to handle. cyclists are an easy target, and remember how stereotypes work, if you've seen one cyclist break the law, we're all outlaws.

[fiamme red]

A few years ago I was riding with my girlfriend when a driver yelled in a very angry voice "single file" - it's the one bicycle related law they know. Well, they don't really know the law, they just like to yell "single file!". We were on a tandem.If you weren't riding single file, you must have been on one of those "flexible flyer" tandems without a lateral tube. :D

[rugbysecondrow]

a lot of cagers are angered by ANY inconvenience to them. i was at dunkin doughnuts this morning and an overweight woman who was an obvious smoker was complaining loudly on line that the staff was moving too slow, and "what was taking so long". the 2 minute wait for her extra frosting doughnut was more than she was prepared to handle. cyclists are an easy target, and remember how stereotypes work, if you've seen one cyclist break the law, we're all outlaws.

Cagers? Funny how we view the world like this. Cyclists who do not want the inconvenience of waiting at a light are?????

As a rider and a driver, I get pissed at cyclists too. Cyclists often do ignore the law and they do have an attitude. Unfortunately, a majority of cyclists are dicks and it comes through when they ride. I have seen it while riding and driving and it is a pet peeve of mine.

[drewski]

The tyranny of car culture syndrome is what I call this.
Some people who drive lose their sense of perspective and have
a huge sense of entitlement.

I feel like there is more anger directed toward me when I wear spandex.
Its jealousy they just wish they had my bodacious bod.

Last Sunday when I was riding I noticed an increase in the number of people
out riding. So I think there is definitely a trend toward more people picking up riding.

However, in our culture bicycles are still considered by many to be toys.
I life less than a few blocks from my daughters school.
I have been riding beater bicycles to pick up my kids for the last five years.


Other than 1 other teacher who just started riding I am the only person
in my neighborhood who ever does this. We have really nice weather
for riding pretty much year round except when there is 1-2 small
winter mix events.

[Steevo]

I can't say where the blind anger comes from. Its my observation over many years that anger directed at cyclists it has always been there, but it seems there is a lot more of it now than there has been in the past.

[fourflys]

a lot of cagers are angered by ANY inconvenience to them. i was at dunkin doughnuts this morning and an overweight woman who was an obvious smoker was complaining loudly on line that the staff was moving too slow, and "what was taking so long". the 2 minute wait for her extra frosting doughnut was more than she was prepared to handle. cyclists are an easy target, and remember how stereotypes work, if you've seen one cyclist break the law, we're all outlaws.


mmmm, Dunkin Doughnuts.... I'm sorry, did you say something? :D

[54ny77]

just smile and say you'd love to see her in out there in lycra, like an assos catalog. :cool:

[timto]

I recently moved to very bike friendly Vancouver - the city makes great efforts to encourage cycling and there is a real bike as transport (and roadies, and mtbr's etc etc) culture. Parents pick up their kids from school in trailers and such. There is also blatant crazy behavior from cyclists that I witness all of the time. Probably a minority but a danger to themselves, to drivers and to the majority of us that follow a predictable protocol needed for sanity on the roads.

I also spend time in a car and see doofus moves from my fellow bike enthusiasts all the time. Bonehead moves contribute to the anger that's out there from motorists. There are always two sides for sure but we dont' help ourselves at times...

There should be a 'face palm' emoticon.

From a guy about to buy a cargo bike to take his kids to school in...

[StellaBlue]

Dear OP, if there weren't so many idiot cyclist who don't follow the rules, you would have a leg to stand on w/ your rant. Sadly a large number of people on bikes think rules of the road don't apply to them. Of course there are some angry motorists who are nuts, but most I encounter are respectful of cyclists and their safety..

PS: I detest these us against them threads.

[weiwentg]

Dear OP, if there weren't so many idiot cyclist who don't follow the rules, you would have a leg to stand on w/ your rant. Sadly a large number of people on bikes think rules of the road don't apply to them. Of course there are some angry motorists who are nuts, but most I encounter are respectful of cyclists and their safety..

PS: I detest these us against them threads.

I have to say, I see cyclists simply riding through red lights and four way intersections all the time in DC. Just this morning one cyclist weaved through a couple of peds (one of whom was me) crossing through an intersection with a clear yield to pedestrians sign. It gets annoying.

I observe all four ways and red lights during rush hour. I will roll slowly through the stops, just because it's inconvenient to do a full stop. On the weekends, I often do the Idaho stop thing (treat stops as yields, and lights as stops). But it does seem to me like cyclists should observe the laws during rush hour in a city - you really want to be predictable with so many cars and pedestrians around you.

But of course, the motorist who accosted the OP was nuts.

[Ramjm_2000]

I was actually thanked by a driver this weekend for stopping at signs and obeying the traffic laws. Was a pleasant change...

[Volant]

This is WAY aside, but, I've often wondered what would happen if a fitness test was required to obtain and maintain a driver's license? I know; not going to happen (people with disabilities aside). But, the side-benefits would be huge! Better health; might cause more people to commute by other means; more awareness and empathy (perhaps) for those using the roads beyond driving. Just a thought...

[bicycletricycle]

I do not ride lawfully, I do try to ride safely. Running lights, stop signs, riding the wrong way, riding on sidewalks, cutting through parking lots, disregard for the speed limit and a number of other infractions are part of my daily commute. I only feel in the wrong when I disrupt the flow of traffic or scare a pedestrian.

[snah]

Not so long ago, on my way home from a ride, a woman driving a car pulled up next to me while I was waiting for a light to change, rolled down her window and started accusing me of being one of those cyclist with no respect for the law or other drivers. She went on to accuse me of running traffic lights, riding on sidewalks and riding on the wrong side of the road - all while I was waiting at a traffic light, on the street, on the right side. When the light changed she drove off, the guy in the car behind her rolled down his window and said "I noticed you were stopped" as he went by. If it were just that woman I would say she needs to clean her glasses, her car windows or take a few anger management classes, but it's not. A few years ago I was riding with my girlfriend when a driver yelled in a very angry voice "single file" - it's the one bicycle related law they know. Well, they don't really know the law, they just like to yell "single file!". We were on a tandem. Where does such blind anger come from?

Had a guy yell the same stuff at me this past summer, calmly, I asked if he'd like to know why, in his words, "you people ride on the the road"? He said yes, my answer, "Just to piss off people like you. Have a great day sir."

[snah]

Cagers? Funny how we view the world like this. Cyclists who do not want the inconvenience of waiting at a light are?????

As a rider and a driver, I get pissed at cyclists too. Cyclists often do ignore the law and they do have an attitude. Unfortunately, a majority of cyclists are dicks and it comes through when they ride. I have seen it while riding and driving and it is a pet peeve of mine.

Agreed, what do we call the cyclist that don't like the inconvenience of waiting at lights? I've got friends that run lights and I just don't understand it.

[snah]

a lot of cagers are angered by ANY inconvenience to them. i was at dunkin doughnuts this morning and an overweight woman who was an obvious smoker was complaining loudly on line that the staff was moving too slow, and "what was taking so long". the 2 minute wait for her extra frosting doughnut was more than she was prepared to handle. cyclists are an easy target, and remember how stereotypes work, if you've seen one cyclist break the law, we're all outlaws.

Wonder if the lady was related to this guy,

http://www.toledoonthemove.com/news/story.aspx?id=568792

[DRZRM]

I for one regularly drive on the highway in excess of the 55 (and the 65) MPH speed limit, along with easily 90% of all highway drivers equally willing to break the laws they decide are worth breaking (many others additionally practice illegal cell phone use, texting, violate yield laws in traffic circles [remember I live in MA], roll stop signs, push back pedestrians with the right of way as the make rights on red). Most people are selective in how they apply laws in their daily lives. Seems like a large part of them are willing to critique bikers. Most are more willing to forgive other motorists.

[1centaur]

A few years ago I was riding with my girlfriend when a driver yelled in a very angry voice "single file" - We were on a tandem.

Maybe he was mad that you took her off the market and he was yelling "Singlephile!"

[Ti Designs]

PS: I detest these us against them threads.

I never intended it to be an us against them thread. I think all people should make some use of their brain before making use of their mouth.

Two big questions pop up. First, why are people so angry and why the short fuse? If you can't wait an extra two minutest for a coffee and doughnut, how does the rest of your life work? There just isn't enough blood pressure medication to go around.

The bigger question is how did we as cyclists get this reputation? That one seems easy to me, there's never been any education about bikes and riding. Look at countries where the bike is a common mode of transportation and you'll find that parents teach their kids about the rules. We have nothing here 'cept a lot of angry drivers and dangerous cyclists, and it's hard not to see that we're to blame.

I do not ride lawfully, I do try to ride safely. Running lights, stop signs, riding the wrong way, riding on sidewalks, cutting through parking lots, disregard for the speed limit and a number of other infractions are part of my daily commute. I only feel in the wrong when I disrupt the flow of traffic or scare a pedestrian.

I must admit I've broken a law or two as well - it's hard not to. Here's something I've learned from riding in Boston and using their bike lanes: If you stop at a red light in a bike lane, there's a pretty good chance that the next rider will run into you. They don't understand why anyone on a bike would stop for a red light. In cases like this I apply the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law. It's much like the speed limit while driving, the spirit of the law is to keep drivers down to a safe speed, thus the speed limits. Now, if you're in your little car in a 30 MPH zone and there's a huge snow plow rolling down the road at 40, the speed limit is no longer safe.


For those of you from California or Florida who don't know what a snow plow is, think of a large truck with a large concave steel plate mounted to the front called a plow. The plow is lowered to the ground where it makes sparks and potholes and pushes around snow mixed with bits of tar and concrete which is deposited in front of your driveway where it can freeze to a solid mass of ice.

[dsb]

For those of you from California or Florida who don't know what a snow plow is, think of a large truck with a large concave steel plate mounted to the front called a plow. The plow is lowered to the ground where it makes sparks and potholes and pushes around snow mixed with bits of tar and concrete which is deposited in front of your driveway where it can freeze to a solid mass of ice.
I resemble that remark... Being from Fla... A few years back I moved to N.Georgia where recently we've had what seems like a couple of feet of snow... The stuff is everywhere! Sadly, I cannot confess to having seen one of these mythical 'Snow Plow' beasts... I don't think they live this far south... My kid was out of school all last week because of the snow...

On the rude driver front, it's much better here in GA than it was in FL... Most of the time when 'they' shout at me I don't understand a word of it, either due to the accent or perhaps the tobacco...

[bikemoore]

I keep telling myself that the next time I get someone trying to correct me, yell at me, whatever that I'll just smile and say "you're right....it IS a great day to ride, isn't it?" or something like that to just throw them off their stride and not make the situation worse. But in practice, two things prevent my doing that: 1) it very rarely happens...I believe the last time I had any sort of confrontation with a motorist was in like 2003 and 2) my adrenaline is up from the exercise and before I can think I've made some stupid comment or gesture myself. Oh well, either someday I'll actually implement my plan or better yet....I'll continue my 7 year streak of having no problems at all with motorists and never HAVE to remember in the heat of effort.

[fourflys]

I keep telling myself that the next time I get someone trying to correct me, yell at me, whatever that I'll just smile and say "you're right....it IS a great day to ride, isn't it?" or something like that to just throw them off their stride and not make the situation worse. But in practice, two things prevent my doing that: 1) it very rarely happens...I believe the last time I had any sort of confrontation with a motorist was in like 2003 and 2) my adrenaline is up from the exercise and before I can think I've made some stupid comment or gesture myself. Oh well, either someday I'll actually implement my plan or better yet....I'll continue my 7 year streak of having no problems at all with motorists and never HAVE to remember in the heat of effort.

do you find people in Europe are more accepting of cyclists or just as bad as on this side of the pond?

the few times I've been honked or yelled at, I just wave to them...

[rugbysecondrow]

I keep telling myself that the next time I get someone trying to correct me, yell at me, whatever that I'll just smile and say "you're right....it IS a great day to ride, isn't it?" or something like that to just throw them off their stride and not make the situation worse. But in practice, two things prevent my doing that: 1) it very rarely happens...I believe the last time I had any sort of confrontation with a motorist was in like 2003 and 2) my adrenaline is up from the exercise and before I can think I've made some stupid comment or gesture myself. Oh well, either someday I'll actually implement my plan or better yet....I'll continue my 7 year streak of having no problems at all with motorists and never HAVE to remember in the heat of effort.

I have to say, I have had similar experiences (or lack of) as this guy. Maybe I am fortunate, but I don't have the issues many here speak of. As an aside, I try to ride with people who share my philosophy regarding interacting with motorists, it seems to make the ride more harmonious.

[oldpotatoe]

Not so long ago, on my way home from a ride, a woman driving a car pulled up next to me while I was waiting for a light to change, rolled down her window and started accusing me of being one of those cyclist with no respect for the law or other drivers. She went on to accuse me of running traffic lights, riding on sidewalks and riding on the wrong side of the road - all while I was waiting at a traffic light, on the street, on the right side. When the light changed she drove off, the guy in the car behind her rolled down his window and said "I noticed you were stopped" as he went by. If it were just that woman I would say she needs to clean her glasses, her car windows or take a few anger management classes, but it's not. A few years ago I was riding with my girlfriend when a driver yelled in a very angry voice "single file" - it's the one bicycle related law they know. Well, they don't really know the law, they just like to yell "single file!". We were on a tandem. Where does such blind anger come from?

From the many cyclists they(and I) see that blatantly break traffic laws, running red lights being the most common, IMO.

Yesterday, as I was waiting at the light leaving my little housing development, a gent rode up next to me, then ran the light. When I caught up with him and mentioned, "why don't you stop at red lights', and I got the answer I always seem to get.....F__K YOU!! MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS!!!

Why I think there is such rancor from drivers of cars.

[Aaron O]

Sorry...but I treat red lights as stop signs (just like pedestrians do). It helps decrease my chances of being right hooked, it decreases my chances of being passed agressively, there's no logical reason for me not to proceed when I know it's safe and it helps me get out of the way of the impatient riders behind me. A lot of this stuff depends on where you're riding and I'm usually riding in a downtown environment if dealing with traffic lights...me obeying every light is slowing cars down, putting me more at risk and generally disrupting traffic.

Not all rules are the same. If you ride on sidewalks in my area...you are a jerk and should be ticketed. Riding against traffic is a jerk move...and should be ticketed. Stopping at a red, checking for cross traffic and proceeding is not a jerk move.

By the way...I don't know if it's just me, but I have far more problems with pedestrians and sidewalk/wrong way bicycle riders than I do with cars. Most drivers in Philly are used to bikers, we often have a lane and things go fairly well. Pedestrians jaywalk without looking...have no bicycle awareness, open doors in front of you...etc. We all know how frustrating salmon are...no need to discuss it.

[StellaBlue]

The bigger question is how did we as cyclists get this reputation?

To quote user bicycletricycle

"I do not ride lawfully, I do try to ride safely. Running lights, stop signs, riding the wrong way, riding on sidewalks, cutting through parking lots, disregard for the speed limit and a number of other infractions are part of my daily commute."

That's where the rep comes from, and apparently some clowns are proud of it...

[Mike126]

i was at dunkin doughnuts this morning and an overweight woman who was an obvious smoker was complaining loudly on line that the staff was moving too slow, and "what was taking so long". the 2 minute wait for her extra frosting doughnut was more than she was prepared to handle. cyclists are an easy target, and remember how stereotypes work, if you've seen one cyclist break the law, we're all outlaws.

2 minute wait???? That's like attempted murder! Her matabolism was screaming... :cool:

I do stop at stop lights on major intersections and mostly for other intersections. I will jump the light (red to green) when it makes sense to get a jump on the cars so I can clip in and build up speed etc. I try to stay to the right and not ride the sidewalks. I think we cyclist should obey the law as much as we would in a car. I think most people don't like to deal with passing us so they get annoyed.

[Ahneida Ride]

They feel safe venting in their steel cocoon. It's easy to take out your life's frustrations on someone who will disappear shortly in the rear view mirror.
William

or when so don't appear so imposing on a bike.

[RPS]

Maybe he was mad that you took her off the market and he was yelling "Singlephile!"
That’s the second good laugh I’ve had in the last hour at the expense of cycling.

I was fixing myself a sandwich for lunch and heard what sounded like a leaf blower, except the sound was moving much faster than normal. When I looked out the kitchen window there was a guy on a bike with a blower strapped over his shoulder rolling down the street being pushed along by JET PROPULSION.

Must have been a physics enthusiast.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=Aaron O]Sorry...but I treat red lights as stop signs (just like pedestrians do). It helps decrease my chances of being right hooked, it decreases my chances of being passed agressively, there's no logical reason for me not to proceed when I know it's safe and it helps me get out of the way of the impatient riders behind me. A lot of this stuff depends on where you're riding and I'm usually riding in a downtown environment if dealing with traffic lights...me obeying every light is slowing cars down, putting me more at risk and generally disrupting traffic.

Not all rules are the same. If you ride on sidewalks in my area...you are a jerk and should be ticketed. Riding against traffic is a jerk move...and should be ticketed. Stopping at a red, checking for cross traffic and proceeding is not a jerk move.

I have talked to many car drivers who say they are angry at cyclists specifically because they run red lights, put forth an elitist attitude that rules are not for them.

You could apply the same reasoning if you were in a car, do you run lights in your car?

I think your reasoning is not accurate and running lights DOES piss people in cars off. For that reason I think it's a good idea to stop at red lights.

[Charles M]

Not so long ago, on my way home from a ride, a woman driving a car pulled up next to me while I was waiting for a light to change, rolled down her window and started accusing me of being one of those cyclist with no respect for the law or other drivers. She went on to accuse me of running traffic lights, riding on sidewalks and riding on the wrong side of the road - all while I was waiting at a traffic light, on the street, on the right side. When the light changed she drove off, the guy in the car behind her rolled down his window and said "I noticed you were stopped" as he went by. If it were just that woman I would say she needs to clean her glasses, her car windows or take a few anger management classes, but it's not. A few years ago I was riding with my girlfriend when a driver yelled in a very angry voice "single file" - it's the one bicycle related law they know. Well, they don't really know the law, they just like to yell "single file!". We were on a tandem. Where does such blind anger come from?


I would guess it comes from the same place that cyclists who pass snotty judgment on other cyclists based on the brand of bike, or the expense of their gear... ;)


Seriously, I think at some point (and this CLEARLY goes for me too) there's no shortage of passing judgment on others in cycling, especially within cycling… There are hipsters, snobs, racers, weight weenies, soul riders, radicals, youngsters and old farts a plenty, and as broad as we all feel the cycling demographic is in North America and no matter how sure we are that we’re “different”, we’re all one of those cyclists...

[jvp]

I will run a red light (after slowing) if no other cars are around, waiting, or approaching. Same for stop signs. My commute takes me through several neighborhoods with very low traffic, and there are several intersections with traffic signals. Sometimes they seem to randomly turn green or red even with no cars around. Of couse if there are cars present I wait to go.

[Aaron O]

[QUOTE=Aaron O]Sorry...but I treat red lights as stop signs (just like pedestrians do). It helps decrease my chances of being right hooked, it decreases my chances of being passed agressively, there's no logical reason for me not to proceed when I know it's safe and it helps me get out of the way of the impatient riders behind me. A lot of this stuff depends on where you're riding and I'm usually riding in a downtown environment if dealing with traffic lights...me obeying every light is slowing cars down, putting me more at risk and generally disrupting traffic.

Not all rules are the same. If you ride on sidewalks in my area...you are a jerk and should be ticketed. Riding against traffic is a jerk move...and should be ticketed. Stopping at a red, checking for cross traffic and proceeding is not a jerk move.

I have talked to many car drivers who say they are angry at cyclists specifically because they run red lights, put forth an elitist attitude that rules are not for them.

You could apply the same reasoning if you were in a car, do you run lights in your car?

I think your reasoning is not accurate and running lights DOES piss people in cars off. For that reason I think it's a good idea to stop at red lights.

I don't follow your reasoning...I shouldn't run red lights because it pisses cars off? I don't live my life to avoid pissing unreasonable people off. There is no reasonable issue to be upset with me for stopping at a red on a 20lbs bike and proceeding through when safe...just as no one would get upset for the pedestrians that do that. Cars complain when people blow through lights carelessly...I really don't think they care much about me carefully checking traffic and prcoeeding when safe. It makes me safer, it gets me out of their way and everyone can go about their day.

My safe alernative to going through the red is to act like a car...meaning taking the lane and letting everyone behind me wait. I assure you that they will be far more annoyed by that. Cars want bikes to behave like traffic when it's convenient for them and they want us to behave like pedestrians when we're in the way. The truth is that we really are some where in between and if you've ridden for any length of time, you know what safe behavior is. I very rarely get cars honking at me or yelling at me...I don't seem to upset autos much. I think that's because I ride in a considerate way trying to stay out of their way while keeping myself safe. If you want to stick to perfectly legal riding, great...I assure you they won't like that either.

[rugbysecondrow]

[QUOTE=oldpotatoe]

I don't follow your reasoning...I shouldn't run red lights because it pisses cars off? I don't live my life to avoid pissing unreasonable people off. There is no reasonable issue to be upset with me for stopping at a red on a 20lbs bike and proceeding through when safe...just as no one would get upset for the pedestrians that do that. Cars complain when people blow through lights carelessly...I really don't think they care much about me carefully checking traffic and prcoeeding when safe. It makes me safer, it gets me out of their way and everyone can go about their day.

Dude, you are not a pedestrian, you are a vehicle. You shouldn't run red lights because you are a vehicle and it is against the law to do so. Unreasonable people? If you are a vehicle on the road, it is entirely reasonable that you will follow the law and the standards of traffic. Cyclists bitch and moan about rights on the road, they want cars to cow tow to them and provide them with wide berth, consideration etc etc because they are entitled to use it, but that comes with responsibilities. That comes with a relationship with motorists that are based in predictability and common standards for traffic. When you hop on a bike and take to the road, you should accept those responsibilities and accept participation in those standards. If not, there are likely bike paths that are most appropriate for you.

If a car is just as careful as you, should they be allowed to pick and choose what stop lights they opt to obey?

No offense meant, but come on. This is exactly why motorists dislike cyclists.

[JMerring]

[QUOTE=oldpotatoe]

I don't follow your reasoning...I shouldn't run red lights because it pisses cars off? I don't live my life to avoid pissing unreasonable people off. There is no reasonable issue to be upset with me for stopping at a red on a 20lbs bike and proceeding through when safe...just as no one would get upset for the pedestrians that do that. Cars complain when people blow through lights carelessly...I really don't think they care much about me carefully checking traffic and prcoeeding when safe. It makes me safer, it gets me out of their way and everyone can go about their day.

My safe alernative to going through the red is to act like a car...meaning taking the lane and letting everyone behind me wait. I assure you that they will be far more annoyed by that. Cars want bikes to behave like traffic when it's convenient for them and they want us to behave like pedestrians when we're in the way. The truth is that we really are some where in between and if you've ridden for any length of time, you know what safe behavior is. I very rarely get cars honking at me or yelling at me...I don't seem to upset autos much. I think that's because I ride in a considerate way trying to stay out of their way while keeping myself safe. If you want to stick to perfectly legal riding, great...I assure you they won't like that either.

i completely agree with you. fact is, drivers who get pissed off when cyclists 'carefully' treat red lights as stop signs are pissed off by the very existence of said cyclist, and would be so even if he or she were obeying all the laws. i'm all for engendering goodwill among cyclists and drivers - and try to do so often - but nevertheless will treat some lights as stop signs in the same manner and for the same reasons you do.

[Aaron O]

[QUOTE=Aaron O]

Dude, you are not a pedestrian, you are a vehicle. Cyclists bitch and moan about rights on the road, they want cars to cow tow to them and provide them with wide berth, consideration etc etc because they are entitled to use it, but that comes with responsibilities. That comes with a relationship with motorists that are based in predictability and common standards for traffic. When you hop on a bike and take to the road, you should accept those responsibilities and accept participation in those standards. If not, there are likely bike paths that are most appropriate for you.

Great...than I'm sure they won't mind when I predictably take the lane, follow all signs, like stopping at stop signs and they can sit and wait behind me. That won't annoy them at all. Good grief.

I also don't complain about cars...I don't seem to have many issues with them and none that drive legally. I ride in a way that doesn't cause conflict or problems and think most drivers around here are pretty good. In the mean time I've managed to commute safely by bicycle for several years without issue...and without trying to make unreasonable people happy.

[rugbysecondrow]

[QUOTE=rugbysecondrow]

Great...than I'm sure they won't mind when I predictably take the lane, follow all signs, like stopping at stop signs and they can sit and wait behind me. That won't annoy them at all. Good grief.

My man, this is exactly what you should do. It is not terribly complicated.

[leooooo]

Dude, you are not a pedestrian, you are a vehicle.

If I ever rode like a vehicle, I'm pretty sure drivers are going to hate me more, IF I'm not dead yet.

In fact I just got yelled at for being on the road last week and should be on the sidewalk. Imagine if I took up the lane. He may have skipped the screaming and just ran me over. ;)

[Aaron O]

[QUOTE=Aaron O]

My man, this is exactly what you should do. It is not terribly complicated.

I sincerely hope I never get behind you in a car.

You can feel superior and smug...and I assure you that where I live and ride, drivers will despise you and prefer the way I ride. You will be in the way with people shouting at you non-stop.

[drewski]

[QUOTE=Aaron O]

Dude, you are not a pedestrian, you are a vehicle. Cyclists bitch and moan about rights on the road, they want cars to cow tow to them and provide them with wide berth, consideration etc etc because they are entitled to use it, but that comes with responsibilities. That comes with a relationship with motorists that are based in predictability and common standards for traffic. When you hop on a bike and take to the road, you should accept those responsibilities and accept participation in those standards. If not, there are likely bike paths that are most appropriate for you.

Hang on here. Not intersections are created equally or include
making streets safe for cyclists and pedestrians. Its 2010 and several
suburban communites in the United States still plan roads the same way as in the 1950's


I am an avid bike commuter I observer traffic lights when I am in congested areas and when I am riding in groups. However there are some areas of my community where is it plainly obvious that the traffic engineering that was performed was
factored cars and excluded pedestrains and pedalers.

For example you come to a red light and you wait for the light to
turn red. 2-3 minutes go by the light has not changed. So you push the
pedestrain crossing button. 2-3 minutes go by the light has not changed.

There are two interestions like this areas like this on my commute. I realize
this increases the chances of drawing ire from drivers-this is the calculus I have to make.

I plan to follow up with our D.O.T. to getter a better understanding
on how these traffic light sensors work here in Charlotte.
I recall asking someone more knowledgeable than me about this.
I was told moving all the way to the right is supposed to trigger
some kind of metal detector which influences when light changes.

[Aaron O]

If I ever rode like a vehicle, I'm pretty sure drivers are going to hate me more, IF I'm not dead yet.

In fact I just got yelled at for being on the road last week and should be on the sidewalk. Imagine if I took up the lane. He may have skipped the screaming and just ran me over. ;)

Exactly. This is one of those things where someone is too wrapped up in the philosophy of riding and advocasy and paying no attention to the real world of traffic...at least in my area. The simple truth is that riding styles that work in one area may not work in another. If there is cross traffic going at 50mph, no...it;s not safe to go through a red. In my area, it's safer acting like a bike...meaning staying out of the way of cars...giving them space...and going about your business.

I have commuted without incident in Philadelphia for a LOT of years...clearly my technique works. My problem is jaywalkers and salmon...cabs and buses can also be a challenge.

[rugbysecondrow]

If I ever rode like a vehicle, I'm pretty sure drivers are going to hate me more, IF I'm not dead yet.

[QUOTE=rugbysecondrow]
I sincerely hope I never get behind you in a car.
You can feel superior and smug...and I assure you that where I live and ride, drivers will despise you and prefer the way I ride. You will be in the way with people shouting at you non-stop.

Why? This makes no sense.

Exactly. This is one of those things where someone is too wrapped up in the philosophy of riding and advocasy and paying no attention to the real world of traffic...at least in my area. The simple truth is that riding styles that work in one area may not work in another.


Philosophically speaking, and I will ask this in the tone that will least convey my smug, superior attitude, when is it appropriate to run the light? Drewski made a good point and I can accept that. I have had that issue before. But in what instance is it more beneficial to have cyclists running red lights? I ask this not wanting an answer that relates to your convenience, but rather something tangible to the flow of traffic?

I get that folks feel it is silly to stop at lights, but why? What benefit is provided by not doing this? Asked a different way, what benefit is provided by running red lights?

Also, why would it be unsafe to be part of traffic at a stop sign or stop light? In an urban setting, if I am going the same speed as traffic, this makes sense. If not, I can take the lane when approaching a light or sign, then relinquish it afterwards.

[fiamme red]

After a snowstorm, when the rideable area on streets and avenues is narrowed, my strategy is to go through as many red lights as possible (where it's safe to do so), and as few green lights as possible. I don't want to try keeping up with the stream of car traffic on icy streets.

Then again, I run red lights all year long, if the coast is clear. There are few, if any, cyclists here in the city who don't do likewise.

Bicycles and cars are not the same. How can you compare two tons of steel to 150-250 lbs of bike plus rider?

[rugbysecondrow]

Then again, I run red lights all year long, if the coast is clear. I don't know any cyclists here in the city who won't do the same.

Bicycles and cars are not the same. How can you compare two tons of steel to 150-250 lbs of bike plus rider?


What does one have to do with the other? How does running the lights make the interaction of bikes and cars better?

This is what I don't understand. How is safety improved being doing this? I can see how convenience is improved, but maybe I am just flat out missing something.

[leooooo]

[QUOTE=Aaron O]

Why? This makes no sense.


Just noticed Aaron bikes in Philly and I bike in NYC, while you bike in Ellicott City (wiki says population of 56k).

Maybe this is why. We are talking about totally different settings, therefore applying totally different riding styles.

[bikemoore]

I think Europeans are somewhat more accepting of cyclists...but they do have their issues.

Germans drive very fast and the traffic is heavy....do not get in their way. But they are also good drivers. I'm not comfortable on a lot of German roads due to speed, traffic, and lack of a shoulder, but you can easily find bike paths and lightly travelled roads to stay out of their way. Biggest issue with Germans on the paved paths is that they love to walk and etiquette in Germany between pedestrians and bicycles is that bicyclists use bells instead of voice to warn of approach. They think it is rude to use your voice to warn of your approach. Smartest thing I do when riding on Sundays is to put a bell on my bike. Actually, the last confrontation I had in 2003 with a motorist was in Stuttgart, Germany. There was this crappy little bike path painted on a sidewalk crowded with street furniture.....completely unsatisfactory for a bike path. Some German motorist decided it was his place to tell me that I should be on that path instead of on the road even though there was plenty of room. I just pretended I didn't understand him (easy enough for me to do with my terrible Deutch.

Italians also drive very fast, but are mostly very accepting of bicycles. They'll buzz by pretty close just like they do to everyone, but they are checking out your bike and your kit as they buzz you. If they approve, they'll let you know.

The Brits can be jerks just like in the U.S. But its easy to find quiet little farm lanes to ride on there. I'm amazed that UK cycling clubs organize time trials on 65-mph 4-lane highways with no shoulder/verge and then wonder why they have fatal accidents between trucks and bikes during organized races. Once I saw how they race in the UK, I decided to never enter a time trial there.

So, I've cycled about 10 years in the U.S (mostly Oklahoma and Florida) and about 12 years in Europe. Good cycling can be had in both, both do have issues with cycling, but overall I do prefer cycling in Europe.

......and P.S. I have NEVER ONCE been chased by a dog while riding in Europe. Dogs ruled in Oklahoma. Can't tell you how many times I had to scratch off certain roads in Oklahoma because there was some damn dog that just couldn't be dealt with.

[JMerring]

snip

do you obey the speed limit everywhere, at all times? if so, congratulations for you are a rare breed indeed.

[rugbysecondrow]

[QUOTE=rugbysecondrow]

Just noticed Aaron bikes in Philly and I bike in NYC, while you bike in Ellicott City (wiki says population of 56k).

Maybe this is why. We are talking about totally different settings, therefore applying totally different riding styles.

I have ridden in plenty of other places both urban and rural.

Still curious, what is gained by blowing stoplights? How is this more beneficial to traffic in urban areas vs. sub-urban? Enlighten me to how traffic is enhanced by this practice? If it is just convenience, you can say that too, but don't veil it as something else.

[Aaron O]

[QUOTE=rugbysecondrow]

Just noticed Aaron bikes in Philly and I bike in NYC, while you bike in Ellicott City (wiki says population of 56k).

Maybe this is why. We are talking about totally different settings, therefore applying totally different riding styles.

Which is why I wrote the rules of cycling safely and considerately vary with location. Riding in the lane and obeying all signage in my area is a good recipe to get shot in a road rage incident, run over or, even worse, late for work.

[rugbysecondrow]

do you obey the speed limit everywhere, at all times? if so, congratulations for you are a rare breed indeed.

So, whether cars speed or not, is that a justification for cyclists blowing stop lights? Is that your point?

I am not a do-gooder or anything, but I find it interesting that the same people who complain about cars, post often about irresponsible drivers are often the ones who post about not following the simplest of traffic instructions, stop lights.

[rugbysecondrow]

So, obeying stop lights will get you shot or will upset motorists? Can you explain?

[QUOTE=leooooo]

Which is why I wrote the rules of cycling safely and considerately vary with location. Riding in the lane and obeying all signage in my area is a good recipe to get shot in a road rage incident, run over or, even worse, late for work.

[tuxbailey]

[QUOTE=rugbysecondrow]

Just noticed Aaron bikes in Philly and I bike in NYC, while you bike in Ellicott City (wiki says population of 56k).

Maybe this is why. We are talking about totally different settings, therefore applying totally different riding styles.

I commute from where Rugby lives (Howard Co., MD) to DC from time to time and I pass through urban areas. I never run through red lights. And it irks me whether I am driving or riding.

[CHF]

I'm a 50-50 stoplight guy. If it's a T intersection and I'm on the straight through, it's a no brainer to roll it. Otherwise it's just a judgement call based on the traffic and road size.

I do it purely for convenience, though there is some safety in not trying to roll off the line at the same time as a line of cars. Cars 1 and 2 know that you are there, but the guys behind them probably can't see you. Getting across an intersection early by blowing the light instead of trying to negotiate with a bunch of cars for space seems inherently safer.

I think the bad cyclists people object to are the ones that cross intersections by weaving between cars instead of waiting for it to be wide open, ride two abreast on a one lane road, and buzz pedestrians on sidewalks to get around cars. But I bet most of those guys aren't very nice to begin with.

[Tom]

I stop for stoplights, wait until they turn green and then go. The deal is I can go from 0-20 fast enough to be out of the way by the time any car behind me cares to pass because I can go 0-20 faster than any car because I react quicker. If I'm in the traffic flow I'm keeping up without trying because of the draft I'm getting, I ride right in the line like a car would be and when we're going too fast I drift to the shoulder.

I also choose what roads I ride. If I can't keep up, at least I want to be on a street where I'm far enough over that there's room... some days when I'm cooked good and proper I don't ride into town the normal way because the one street goes up hill generally for a mile or so and I simply can't jump off the lights like I should and for the first part it's simply too narrow.

My personal rule is if I'm going to be blocking up traffic, I don't ride there. I follow the rules pretty much as self-preservation, predictability is king. If it annoys somebody that is not my problem, I just want them to know what I'm doing. Start making stuff up and they have no idea what page I'm reading off.

[Likes2ridefar]

I ride in Manhattan pretty much every day and besides a few lights, I ride through red lights fairly consistently.

Why?? I know it's against the law, but I honestly feel that it's safer and increases my chances of making it home in one piece.

Broadway is a nightmare where I live (inwood) with cars constantly u-turning, double parking, opening doors with no flashers in the middle of the street, livery cabs swerving suddenly to pick up a customer, etc etc...

because people so consistently break the laws on the roads where I ride, I do what I must to not get hit. When they are stopped at red lights and NOT MOVING I find it far safer to fly by them and get home ASAP.

[drewski]

[QUOTE=leooooo]

I commute from Rugby lives (Howard Co., MD) to DC from time to time and I pass through urban areas. I never run through red lights. And it irks me whether I am driving or riding.

Good point.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0304.longman.html

This is off on another tangent:

This is an interesting artible that states the death by a stranger
rate during 2003 for people living in the burbs was larger than living in the Israel during the Intifada. I am not sure if its fair comparison, but it
points to how living in the suburbs to escape the problems of
urban cities is in built on some bogus notions.


Death by Sprawl: On a statistical basis, what's most likely to get you killed in the next year: (A) living in Israel during the Intifada; (B) living in crime-ridden, inner-city Baltimore, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Milwaukee, Minneapolis-St. Paul, Philadelphia, or Pittsburgh; or (C) living in the bucolic outer suburbs of those cities? The answer is overwhelmingly C. A recent study by University of Virginia professor William H. Lucy found that Americans' migration into sprawling outer suburbs is actually a huge cause of premature death. In the suburbs, you're less likely to be killed by a stranger--unless you count strangers driving cars. Residents of inner-city Houston, for example, face about a 1.5 in 10,000 chance of being killed in the coming year by either a murderous stranger or in an automobile accident. But in the Houston suburb of Montgomery County, residents are 50 percent more likely to die from one of those two causes because the incidence of automobile accidents is so much higher.

[Waldo]

Cagers? Funny how we view the world like this. Cyclists who do not want the inconvenience of waiting at a light are?????

As a rider and a driver, I get pissed at cyclists too. Cyclists often do ignore the law and they do have an attitude. Unfortunately, a majority of cyclists are dicks and it comes through when they ride. I have seen it while riding and driving and it is a pet peeve of mine.

As long as cyclists are not endangering themselves while I drive behind them it's fine with me. I've run my share of stop signs and red lights and continue to do so, so I'm not going to complain about aggressive cycling.

[leooooo]

[QUOTE=leooooo]

I have ridden in plenty of other places both urban and rural.

Still curious, what is gained by blowing stoplights? How is this more beneficial to traffic in urban areas vs. sub-urban? Enlighten me to how traffic is enhanced by this practice? If it is just convenience, you can say that too, but don't veil it as something else.

If I don't time clipping in and ready to sprint by the time a light turns green, I will have hordes of angry drivers behind me.

If I don't roll through a stop sign, I will have hordes of angry drivers behind me.

I don't want the chance of having ONE of those angry drivers throw something at me (Poland Spring bottle once), honk at me (the usual), curse/make useless remarks at me (another usual), or use their vehicle in an act of road rage.

When I ride with common sense, I avoid all that.

[sean]

I sorta skimmed the last couple posts, so apologies if this has already been said.

We recently bought a car after quite a few years living in San Francisco without one. Having an infant sorta'a demands it a bit.

Being on both sides you form an interesting opinion. First and foremost, I think cycling in the city DEMANDS a certain amount of agressiveness and a bit of law braking. It actually keeps you safe. For example, if I'm at a stop light and I see the guy across from me is going for a left turn. I leave before the light changes anticipating that he will try and turn in front of me (as it's happened). I've also busted onto the sidewalk a couple times to keep from getting sideswiped.

However, when I'm in a car, I also deal with my fair share of asshole cyclists. It's usually the kids who just got a new bike and haven't been riding too long, or if you go up to marin, the rich dudes with a weird sense of entitlement. There are some people who will even pull d**k moves on a car just for the confrontation and the chance to stand on their soapbox, if you will. I sorta think this is more symptomatic of the bay area over most places in CA. People like there soapboxes here!

Mostly, while in my car, it's just dumb stuff that can get people hurt and does. I think that because I ride a bike as well, I can anticipate some dumb cycling moves. One of the worst is the cross the intersection as a moving vehicle and then bust into the crosswalk as a pedestrian w/o stopping at a 4 way stop. I usually wait this one out, as I know what some cyclists will do, but have seen my share of near misses because of people doing this.

I think it's give and take. It would be nice to take the people who never ride a bike, and the people who never drive and swap them around for a week or two, I think there would be a much greater respect for how each others roles work.

[Bob Ross]

Not all rules are the same. If you ride on sidewalks in my area...you are a jerk and should be ticketed. Riding against traffic is a jerk move...and should be ticketed. Stopping at a red, checking for cross traffic and proceeding is not a jerk move.

Jon Orcutt, New York City's Director of Policy for the Department of Transportation, recently revealed that the DOT is coming out with an ad campaign to attempt to curtail those very behaviors you just cited. Appropriately, the tag line for this new ad campaign is

"Don't Ride Like A Jerk"





I'm not convinced that's the best way to go about educating the public (cycling or non-cycling), but I can't say I disagree with either of your assesments of the behavior in question.

[Bob Ross]

Broadway is a nightmare where I live (inwood) with cars constantly u-turning, double parking, opening doors with no flashers in the middle of the street, livery cabs swerving suddenly to pick up a customer, etc etc...

I have told my wife repeatedly that if I ever die on a bicycle it will not happen while careening down a mountain side at >50mph, it will not happen during a massive pileup in a stage race, and it will not happen on some epic ride miles away from home...it will happen on Broadway in Inwood between 181st and 204th Streets. And a livery cab driver will most definitely be at fault.

(btw, do we know each other?)

[fiamme red]

Jon Orcutt, New York City's Director of Policy for the Department of Transportation, recently revealed that the DOT is coming out with an ad campaign to attempt to curtail those very behaviors you just cited. Appropriately, the tag line for this new ad campaign is

"Don't Ride Like A Jerk"There could be a counter-marketing opportunity here: JERK reflecto-vests? Team JERK jerseys? "Honk if you're a JERK" bumper-stickers? :)

[Aaron O]

The part of Philly that scares the snot out of me is going down Chestnut at the intersection with the Schuylkill...around 30th. Fortunately they reopened the South Street bridge and I haven't been anywhere near there since. It's this horrendous merge where the bicycle lane disappears into the right turn lane, which leads to a highway, and all of a sudden you're in the middle (like center lane) of 3 way traffic.

The other scary part are the jaywalking pedestrians between JFK and Walnut...these folks are utterly insane. Half of them are either on phones or using headphones...they just don't see bicycles and they'll jump directly in front of you. Salmon cyclists and the sidewalk riders are also horrific.

[drewski]

I have told my wife repeatedly that if I ever die on a bicycle it will not happen while careening down a mountain side at >50mph, it will not happen during a massive pileup in a stage race, and it will not happen on some epic ride miles away from home...it will happen on Broadway in Inwood between 181st and 204th Streets. And a livery cab driver will most definitely be at fault.

(btw, do we know each other?)


How are these guys even allowed to operate is beyond belief.
It really is like being in another country on Broadway.
On the plus side there are some really great Dominican restaurants
over there.

[Fixed]

Not so long ago, on my way home from a ride, a woman driving a car pulled up next to me while I was waiting for a light to change, rolled down her window and started accusing me of being one of those cyclist with no respect for the law or other drivers. She went on to accuse me of running traffic lights, riding on sidewalks and riding on the wrong side of the road - all while I was waiting at a traffic light, on the street, on the right side. When the light changed she drove off, the guy in the car behind her rolled down his window and said "I noticed you were stopped" as he went by. If it were just that woman I would say she needs to clean her glasses, her car windows or take a few anger management classes, but it's not. A few years ago I was riding with my girlfriend when a driver yelled in a very angry voice "single file" - it's the one bicycle related law they know. Well, they don't really know the law, they just like to yell "single file!". We were on a tandem. Where does such blind anger come from?
she had you mixed up with me when i was a messenger
looking back i was pretty happy then
cheers imho

[forrestw]

First and foremost most cyclists in my observation (appropriately) adopt different rules in different circumstances.

To y'all on the MUST OBEY EVERY TRAFFIC LAW view: I've never been on a group ride (i.e. 5 or more riding) where the standard practice has not been for the lead rider to slow, observe conditions and if safe call 'clear' with successive riders observing and echoing as appropriate. IMO this is safer AND more courteous to auto traffic, as a group negotiating an intersection substantially slows traffic when a paceline and car traffic all start up at a light. I'm sure there are groups that observe every traffic rule but they're not among the 20-odd different groups I've ridden among.

Having ridden with TiDesigns, my observation is that he always stopped for reds / stopsigns when riding in a group of 2 and when riding in a paceline, he observes the protocol above, when I'm riding with him I adopt his protocol.

[bikes are vehicles not pedestrians] ...

IMO this is BS. Yes auto drivers like us less than pedestrians who (where I live) break the law about the same rate as cyclists, Op-ed rants on the subject are common, and when the subject comes up, pedestrians anger with cyclists comes up also.

Practice and tolerance of practice vary by locale and urban vs rural environment and that's appropriate. Imx cyclists behave rather differently in Boston vs SF vs NYC.

Here are three instances where *truly* rude drivers have pissed me off so that I've made a point of catching and lecturing them. All of these featured 25-30 MPH posted limits).

a. Rural road on my bike commute, driver tailgated me for about 2 miles for most of which I was in contact with traffic ahead and oncoming traffic was heavy, making passing impossible. I was traveling the speed of traffic, following the car in front of me at the prescribed distance when this car executed a pass, squeezing into an unsafe space and on a road with a solid yellow line.

b. Urban 2 lane road, I was mid-right lane to avoid potholes, the only vehicle within 100 yards of me at the time passed me within a foot exceeding the posted limit. I passed him at next light where he was stopped for a left turn, he changed his course, skipped the turn and with no on-coming traffic again buzzed me within a foot.

c. Urban road, two lane left turn from stoplight onto two-lane road, I used the entire right lane due to potholes in the RH side of the lane and the BMW driver behind me (only other car traveling within 1/4 mile) laid on his horn at me rather than use the left lane to pass.

In each case on catching the drivers and advising that they'd either endangered me or in the case of the 3rd been inordinately rude, they saw nothing wrong with their behavior.

This doesn't count the numerous times I've been told to get on the sidewalk, doored or nearly doored, right hooked, left hooked etc. My point is that a fair fraction of the people who may be angry that they have to share the road with cyclists are also happy to break the law themselves in ways that directly endanger my safety.

I happen to think in some circumstances, I enhance both my own safety and improve the flow of traffic by getting through intersections when there's no traffic at all, for reasons sited by several prior posters. Doing this has yet to incur much wrath of auto drivers.

Conversely, the behaviors that most often incur the wrath or unsafe behavior in motorists involve correctly driving in traffic within the law and for safety (moving to left lane for turns or to avoid right-hooking, moving left to avoid potholes or dooring). I've learned the hard way that doing what autos/trucks *want* me to do is purely dangerous, so if I'm being passed by a semi on a narrow rural road I give myself 3' of space so that when the SOB passes and then squeezes me, I'll have some road to move into.

This is just my experience in my area, but all the data I have suggest that prudently running lights doesn't bug drivers (because I'm not getting in their way when I do it). What does piss 'em off is when keeping me safe is going to cost them a minute or even 30 seconds in their trip.

This is consistent btw with my experience on a motorcycle; 99% of drivers couldn't give a crap if I split lanes in stopped traffic (a habit I picked up in CA where this is legal and expected), yes 1% might get pissed off, but they don't compare the the ones who would squeeze me out of a lane on the highway in heavy traffic because they were bigger than me and could get away with it. (or in one case thought she could .. count one $120k mercedes with a significant bootmark in the door when I caught up with her in city traffic after she looked in her mirror, made eye contact and pushed me out of my lane).

When I took up motorcycling as transport I learned to drive *very* defensively and became a better car driver and cyclist as a result. My accident rate as a cyclist has gone down as I've learned to better anticipate all of the *stupid* things that drivers, cyclists and pedestrians are all prone to doing.

[Fixed]

smart cat
post more
imho
cheers

[rugbysecondrow]

I appreciate what you wrote. The key point where you are incorrect, at least here in Maryland is that bicycles are vehicles. Period. Like it or not, that is the way it is and we have a responsibility to act appropriately. Regardless of whether we are commuting or recreating, or status does not change. Being a vehicle offers certain rights and privileges, but comes with responsibilities.

http://www.cpabc.org/mdlaws.htm

Just because you want something to be a certain way doesn't mean that is the case.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=Aaron O][QUOTE=oldpotatoe]

I don't follow your reasoning...I shouldn't run red lights because it pisses cars off? I don't live my life to avoid pissing unreasonable people off.

If you care about a bunch of car drivers who are pissed at cyclists because you run red lights, YES, stop at the stinkin' light.

Your comment about it being safer is BS.

I stop at red lights, people aren't yelling at me for stopping or 'taking the lane'.

There is no doubt that car drivers DON"T like it when people on bikes run lights. They don't understand your concerns for 'safety'.

[Mr. Squirrel]

there are nuts on both sides of the fence.

mr. squirrel

[Fixed]

bro you don't want to piss a motorist off ....
stay off your bike
some fat arse eating a big mac and driving
is mad cos he's to lazy to do it
and wonders why all the chics think the same
cheers imho

[BumbleBeeDave]

There are legions of drivers who are angry. They're not angry at YOU. They're just angry and YOU happen to be an easy and convenient target.

Why are they angry?

They are overweight and just can't seem to take it off.

They joined the gym and couldn't keep it up more than three weeks.

Their kids tell them to F*ck off--and that's the 10-year-olds!--and they can't spank them because that's "child abuse" now.

Their boss yells at them and piles more work on to make up for the 100 people they just laid off so as to increase profits.

Their taxes just went up. Their pay didn't.

Their company just increased their health insurance co-pay. Again.

They can't fly anywhere without some pimple faced giggling TSA agent sitting in a back room seeing what they look like naked in one of those x-ray machines.

For this and a hundred other reasons they have absolutely no control over their life they're just . . . . ANGRY.

Now they're cruising down the road after a killer day at the office, knowing they have to drive by the gym they are still a member of (because they all have minimum two year monthly automatic withdrawal contracts, and those brakes are pulsating every time they push the pedal--need new pads and THAT'S gonna be another $300 they don't have. #$%@&$!!!

They're flying down the road trying to get home ASAP to fix dinner and just cursing under their breath because they don't have control over anyone or anything in their lives.

. . . And here YOU come riding by.

You're fit--yes, you are! LOOK at you! They're not.

And you flaunt it with those tight clothes! They could never wear those without dying of embarrassment. Once upon a time they thought they'd be able to, but now they know the awful truth that they just . . . can't . . .get in shape. Ever.

You obviously have time to go ride. They don't (Or so they tell themselves.)

You obviously have spare money--to buy that zoomy looking bike. They don't.

You obviously have control over your life. They don't and you represent everything they hate about themselves.

Now suddenly they think, "I'm gonna show THIS A-hole!"

I mean, what can you do? They can yell at you. They can throw things at you. They can even squeeze by just a little too close while having a good laugh . . .

. . . and you can't do a thing. Or so they think. They're bigger, they're faster, you probably can't ID them because they're going to be gone before you can even get a license number.

"Nobody will know!" they tell themselves. Their spouse won't know. Their kids won't find out what they did. Neither will their boss or co-workers. It's the perfect crime! They will show YOU who's boss and won't have to face ANY consequences.

They will CONTROL you and will know that at least to somebody they are big and tough and can act like a bully and won't get in trouble.

That's why I worry about drivers and it doesn't matter how I ride. It doesn't have anything to do with me because they're just . . . ANGRY.

BBD

[rugbysecondrow]

Your answer makes sense Dave except you absolve cyclists. Their dick moves have an impact some of you want to just shrug off.

[tkbike]

I agree with a lot of what RUGBYSECONDROW has to say, I have a 70 mile round trip daily commute by car to work and am also a rider. I can honestly say that I get more irritated by the bike riders than the cars here in Saratoga county. I stop at all red lights and stop signs whether I am in a car or on a bike, here in NY the traffic law is the same whether on a bike or in a car. The roads for the most part are hilly and narrow where I ride, but a lot of cyclist insists on riding three abreast, riding through red lights, stop signs and any other traffic control device they feel doesn't apply to them. I have been yelled at by cyclist when driving and yelled at by drivers when cycling. I have also been thanked by drivers for obeying the traffic laws while riding, they are amazed that there are law abiding cyclist. We are our own worst enemy when it comes to promoting our sport!

[gdw]

"We are our own worst enemy when it comes to promoting our sport!"

+1000

[oldmill]

The topic of a-hole bike riders is well worth worth examining, especially as the number of riders out there on the road grows. It is a personal peeve of mine as well. But we're talking here about how riders interact with cars and traffic laws, and I think we need to distinguish between what may irritate some drivers -- going through stop signs or red lights, and what inconveniences them -- riding three abreast, for example. Both are traffic-law infractions. Riding two or three abreast though (or even solo if you're slowing traffic) forces drivers into either waiting or pulling a dangerous pass. Same thing with darting in and out of traffic etc. It's as much a matter of courtesy as it is law, and from my experience that's what drivers respond to. As a driver, I don't care if a biker blows a stop sign on a non-busy road, but having to wait behind a group of riders that can't bothered to get into a single line is a another matter entirely.

[Fixed]

well said imho
cheers

[drewski]

There are legions of drivers who are angry. They're not angry at YOU. They're just angry and YOU happen to be an easy and convenient target.

Why are they angry?

They are overweight and just can't seem to take it off.

They joined the gym and couldn't keep it up more than three weeks.

Their kids tell them to F*ck off--and that's the 10-year-olds!--and they can't spank them because that's "child abuse" now.

Their boss yells at them and piles more work on to make up for the 100 people they just laid off so as to increase profits.

Their taxes just went up. Their pay didn't.

Their company just increased their health insurance co-pay. Again.

They can't fly anywhere without some pimple faced giggling TSA agent sitting in a back room seeing what they look like naked in one of those x-ray machines.

For this and a hundred other reasons they have absolutely no control over their life they're just . . . . ANGRY.

Now they're cruising down the road after a killer day at the office, knowing they have to drive by the gym they are still a member of (because they all have minimum two year monthly automatic withdrawal contracts, and those brakes are pulsating every time they push the pedal--need new pads and THAT'S gonna be another $300 they don't have. #$%@&$!!!

They're flying down the road trying to get home ASAP to fix dinner and just cursing under their breath because they don't have control over anyone or anything in their lives.

. . . And here YOU come riding by.

You're fit--yes, you are! LOOK at you! They're not.

And you flaunt it with those tight clothes! They could never wear those without dying of embarrassment. Once upon a time they thought they'd be able to, but now they know the awful truth that they just . . . can't . . .get in shape. Ever.

You obviously have time to go ride. They don't (Or so they tell themselves.)

You obviously have spare money--to buy that zoomy looking bike. They don't.

You obviously have control over your life. They don't and you represent everything they hate about themselves.

Now suddenly they think, "I'm gonna show THIS A-hole!"

I mean, what can you do? They can yell at you. They can throw things at you. They can even squeeze by just a little too close while having a good laugh . . .

. . . and you can't do a thing. Or so they think. They're bigger, they're faster, you probably can't ID them because they're going to be gone before you can even get a license number.

"Nobody will know!" they tell themselves. Their spouse won't know. Their kids won't find out what they did. Neither will their boss or co-workers. It's the perfect crime! They will show YOU who's boss and won't have to face ANY consequences.

They will CONTROL you and will know that at least to somebody they are big and tough and can act like a bully and won't get in trouble.

That's why I worry about drivers and it doesn't matter how I ride. It doesn't have anything to do with me because they're just . . . ANGRY.

BBD

Better get used to upsetting folks in cars. 66% of USA is overweight.
We lead the world.



http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=77723&stc=1

[etu]

have you ever been at an intersection ready to make a left turn and you see another bicyclist coming at you from the other direction. there are no other cars around and it's a four way stop, would you trust that person to yield you the right of way? probably not, because you know 9 times out of 10 that ...hole will just charge through, especially if he or she is on a carbon fiber bike. :p

i think it really helps to be insistent in waving those drivers through in a four way stop who have the right of way but are yielding because of the "usual" practices of bicyclist. sends a better message and balances out some of the negative experiences.

[forrestw]

... I can honestly say that I get more irritated by the bike riders than the cars ... a lot of cyclist insists on riding three abreast, riding through red lights, stop signs and any other traffic control device they feel doesn't apply to them. ... We are our own worst enemy when it comes to promoting our sport!

Let's be clear, I'm not riding to be a spokesmodel for cyclists generally; I mostly try to treat other users of the roads with respect. It may well be that group rides in your area don't work like they do in mine. If I were to ride per the law where I live there's *no* group I could ride with. OTOH, like you I don't have much tolerance for groups that don't have the courtesy to move to single-file when there's traffic or otherwise fail to respect traffic flow.

If I'm prone to getting more aggravated by car drivers than cyclists, it's probably because I spend more time in the saddle than I do behind the wheel and about every week someone in a car does something that seriously threatens my safety. I try not to demonize the situation but I'm surely far more prone to be angry with a cage driver who would cause me bodily harm if I weren't a solidly defensive rider. (Not much different than it was on a motorcycle.)

I don't think I've ever made a move on a bike that directly or indirectly threatened the life or health of a driver or pedestrian and I don't have much sympathy for drivers who cop 'tude at me 'cause I'm inconveniencing their trip by a minute or two.

I appreciate what you wrote. The key point where you are incorrect, at least here in Maryland is that bicycles are vehicles. Period.

Same in MA, I really wasn't arguing the point.

Smoking marijuana is illegal (but has been reduced to a misdemeanor where I live), at least at the end-user level it's not generally enforced in most states. Until struck down in 2003 by the US supreme court, many states had anti-sodomy laws on the books that technically made consensual oral sex between married adults illegal. which were selectively enforced against LGBT people.

I have at some time in my life smoked pot (and inhaled) and I didn't recognize the state's interest in prohibiting what I or others do behind closed doors between consenting adults when those laws were on the books.

People choose what laws to obey and when. I have no qualms about failing to perfectly follow traffic laws. That said, I don't ever run lights/stopsigns in a car and rarely exceed the posted speed limit. These are real safety issues. Granted, my cycling habits on the road may be eroding my good driving habits in a car but I haven't observed that to be an issue yet.

[forrestw]

have you ever been at an intersection ready to make a left turn and you see another bicyclist coming at you from the other direction. there are no other cars around and it's a four way stop, would you trust that person to yield you the right of way? probably not, because you know 9 times out of 10 that ...hole will just charge through,
Not sure I'm getting you on this??? Where I live, the vehicle coming straight through an intersection has right of way over a veh going opposite direction making a left turn.

A pet peeve in intersections are drivers w/ right of way who nearly stop, wave me on but are rolling fwd. I think they don't get how menacing a moving veh looks to a cyclist and in any case I *don't* want autos yielding ROW to me, predictability is a good thing on the road.

[rugbysecondrow]

Not sure I'm getting you on this??? Where I live, the vehicle coming straight through an intersection has right of way over a veh going opposite direction making a left turn.

A pet peeve in intersections are drivers w/ right of way who nearly stop, wave me on but are rolling fwd. I think they don't get how menacing a moving veh looks to a cyclist and in any case I *don't* want autos yielding ROW to me, predictability is a good thing on the road.


This is the point. Exactly. Drivers don't trust what cyclists will do becase of erratic and inconsistent behavior. The driver has not clue what you are going to do because the varying riding protocols.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Your answer makes sense Dave except you absolve cyclists. Their dick moves have an impact some of you want to just shrug off.

. . . that "absolves cyclists?"

I said nothing of the sort. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

There are just as many A-hole cyclists out there as there are motorists. For each I think it's a small percentage, but both sides share exactly the same kind of traits because both sides are people. I think the cyclists likely have different reasons for making their bonehead moves, but other than that they are the same.

BBD

[William]

. . .

There are just as many A-hole cyclists out there as there are motorists. For each I think it's a small percentage, but both sides share exactly the same kind of traits because both sides are people. I think the cyclists likely have different reasons for making their bonehead moves, but other than that they are the same.

BBD


Sounds like you agree with the Squirrel. :crap: :)



William

[JonB]

Have any of us cyclists ever randomly started yelling at a particular motorist....why do you always speed? why don't you use your turn signals? why do you always hurry to pass me and then turn left immediately in front of me? why are you texting while driving? why did you roll that stopsign?

[Charles M]

There are legions of drivers who are angry. They're not angry at YOU. They're just angry and YOU happen to be an easy and convenient target.

Why are they angry?

They are overweight and just can't seem to take it off.

They joined the gym and couldn't keep it up more than three weeks.

Their kids tell them to F*ck off--and that's the 10-year-olds!--and they can't spank them because that's "child abuse" now.

Their boss yells at them and piles more work on to make up for the 100 people they just laid off so as to increase profits.

Their taxes just went up. Their pay didn't.

Their company just increased their health insurance co-pay. Again.

They can't fly anywhere without some pimple faced giggling TSA agent sitting in a back room seeing what they look like naked in one of those x-ray machines.

For this and a hundred other reasons they have absolutely no control over their life they're just . . . . ANGRY.

Now they're cruising down the road after a killer day at the office, knowing they have to drive by the gym they are still a member of (because they all have minimum two year monthly automatic withdrawal contracts, and those brakes are pulsating every time they push the pedal--need new pads and THAT'S gonna be another $300 they don't have. #$%@&$!!!

They're flying down the road trying to get home ASAP to fix dinner and just cursing under their breath because they don't have control over anyone or anything in their lives.

. . . And here YOU come riding by.

You're fit--yes, you are! LOOK at you! They're not.

And you flaunt it with those tight clothes! They could never wear those without dying of embarrassment. Once upon a time they thought they'd be able to, but now they know the awful truth that they just . . . can't . . .get in shape. Ever.

You obviously have time to go ride. They don't (Or so they tell themselves.)

You obviously have spare money--to buy that zoomy looking bike. They don't.

You obviously have control over your life. They don't and you represent everything they hate about themselves.

Now suddenly they think, "I'm gonna show THIS A-hole!"

I mean, what can you do? They can yell at you. They can throw things at you. They can even squeeze by just a little too close while having a good laugh . . .

. . . and you can't do a thing. Or so they think. They're bigger, they're faster, you probably can't ID them because they're going to be gone before you can even get a license number.

"Nobody will know!" they tell themselves. Their spouse won't know. Their kids won't find out what they did. Neither will their boss or co-workers. It's the perfect crime! They will show YOU who's boss and won't have to face ANY consequences.

They will CONTROL you and will know that at least to somebody they are big and tough and can act like a bully and won't get in trouble.

That's why I worry about drivers and it doesn't matter how I ride. It doesn't have anything to do with me because they're just . . . ANGRY.

BBD





Virtually everything you have here are things I've listened to Cyclists say about other cyclists...


In fact,


I hear a car driver yell something ????ty at what ever group I'm riding in maybe 1 in 3 or 4 rides...

But I hear a cyclist mutter some ????ty judgment about someone else in the group every ride... (some groups are way worse than others).


Of all the people I know, @15% are cyclists... Of the self important, judgmental, a$$holes I know, 75% of them are cyclists... Part of that's because group rides are pressurized situations, part of it's not.

[rugbysecondrow]

. . . that "absolves cyclists?"

I said nothing of the sort. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

There are just as many A-hole cyclists out there as there are motorists. For each I think it's a small percentage, but both sides share exactly the same kind of traits because both sides are people. I think the cyclists likely have different reasons for making their bonehead moves, but other than that they are the same.

BBD
In all you wrote, since you ignored the issue of cyclists behavior it seemed like you were absolving cyclistS. Clearly I am mistaken and you chose to discuss only motorists and their ????ty days. :rolleyes:

[drewski]

Most bike lanes are designed for the
1. Super fit, super inteprid (some times super stupid)
2. Have to ride because they have no choice

So this creates a situation where only elite folks ride.
If the riders in our bike lanes represented a better
cross section of our populace I think we would be on
our way to a true cycling revolution.
I think our DOT need to factor this in. The problem
is they don't.


Not many people are willing to buy bicycle and go for
commute to work or to pick up groceries.
ride in a suburban part of town. According to the latest
surveys its less than 1%.

[Ti Designs]

This is the point. Exactly. Drivers don't trust what cyclists will do becase of erratic and inconsistent behavior. The driver has not clue what you are going to do because the varying riding protocols.


I've noticed that a lot, in many cases their failure to use their right of way has left me in a dangerous position. Many drivers aren't sure of the whole vehicle/pedestrian question - which one are they? I know the laws better than most because I've done my time playing expert witness in bike accident cases, along with the lawyer who drafted my state's bicycle bill of rights. That alone means nothing 'cause most of the drivers hardly know any of the laws (I have a theory that drivers in the Boston area only know two driving laws at any time, and these two keep changing. They learn about a new law and forget one they knew. If you watch the traffic flow around here it all makes sense). The funny thing is that drivers sometimes get angry when I'm following the law to the letter. I'm stopped at a light, they want to make a left turn from the other direction and have a green arrow, but they see me there and there's a cross walk, so they wait - clearly not my fault, but I just know they're going to call me something as I ride past once the light changes...


As I read this thread I realize that I follow the laws far more than most. There are a few reasons for this. First, I'm not in a rush. On the bike I'm not slow (well, maybe in the winter...), if I need to get somewhere quickly I'll push the speed, not run traffic lights. Better yet, I'll leave earlier. In my car I don't often speed. If I'm in a rush to get somewhere I should have left earlier - my fault... There's something to be said for personal responsibility. Another reason I don't run lights on the bike is because I'm coaching riders, and being a role model (who would have ever thought I would somehow be a role model - we're all doomed!). They see me run lights, they run lights. The amount of time you save by not stopping for a light is insignificant compared to how long it takes to get a rider to the emergency room, contact their parents, get them home, wait for them to recover and get them back into training. Or maybe I just can't make justifications for not following the laws...

[forrestw]

This is the point. Exactly. Drivers don't trust what cyclists will do becase of erratic and inconsistent behavior. The driver has not clue what you are going to do because the varying riding protocols.

Heh, not the point at all, drivers do exactly this wrt autos also, i.e. yielding when they have the right of way (and this pisses me off when I'm driving also.

Neither I nor any riders I know are inconsistent about how we treat R.O.W. situations, i.e. unless someone who should be isn't yielding, I (we) prefer to use the ROW when we have it and yield when we're supposed to.

The two ambiguities that I can't help transmitting is I am very hesitant to proceed w/ ROW if a car that's supposed to be yielding is creeping in my direction, I'm not comfortable when they're not actually stopped and if I'm doing a trackstand or otherwise maneuvering as a driver is yielding when he shouldn't be I may not have a hand free to wave him on ... usually a head-gesture gets the point across just as well.

All that said, I and the other folks on this forum are relatively experience and probably have relatively low accident rates (club riders doing 2k miles or more per season w/ 10 or more years of experience have very low accident rates). The BU kids who ride the wrong way down Comm Ave sans helmets or lights (hey they're in the BIKE lane, right?) are a whole different story.

[fiamme red]

Grant Petersen posted this yesterday:

http://www.rivbike.com/blogs/knothole_post/322

The Idaho vehicle code lets bike riders treat stop signs and red lights as yield signs, and is known as the "Idaho Stop." You have to yield to cars---the law and self-preservation require that much---but when there are none, you slow to a vestigial stop, look around to be extra sure, and sail on through with a momentum-assist.

The Idaho Stop has been in effect since 1983,and amazingly enough/against all odds, it is a success. Motorists are used to it, and don't raise a ruckus trying to get the law changed, and it hasn't increased bike-car accident rates. Its purpose was to encourage more bike riding, the idea being that if you don't have to stop all the time, riding is easier. It works that way, too. I've seen practitioners in other states, but they are scofflaws. I predict no other states will adopt it in my lifetime, though. I may try an Idaho Stop one of these decades. I bet it will work.

Is the Idaho Stop fair to motorists? It's fair enough. Cars and bikes both are vehicles, in the same way that a Glock and a Squirtgun are both guns. That's not a perfect analogy, but imperfection is what you get with analogies. They're just a suggestion. In this case I'm just saying that just as not all guns are the same, so are. . . not all vehicles. Some are more dangerous than others, bothwise...

[Blue Jays]

Motorists can likely get behind the Idaho Stop as it simultaneously facilitates efficiency of car travel by reducing stopped time behind bikes.
URL: http://vimeo.com/4140910

[Bob Ross]

Have any of us cyclists ever randomly started yelling at a particular motorist....why do you always speed? why don't you use your turn signals? why do you always hurry to pass me and then turn left immediately in front of me? why are you texting while driving? why did you roll that stopsign?


I have on numerous occasions -- in fact, it's alarming how many times I've had to in my area -- yelled at a car

"USE YOUR ????ING TURN SIGNAL!"

and

"GET OFF THE ????ING CELLPHONE!"

Doesn't help the situation, I know...

[oldpotatoe]

Most bike lanes are designed for the
1. Super fit, super inteprid (some times super stupid)
2. Have to ride because they have no choice

So this creates a situation where only elite folks ride.
If the riders in our bike lanes represented a better
cross section of our populace I think we would be on
our way to a true cycling revolution.
I think our DOT need to factor this in. The problem
is they don't.


Not many people are willing to buy bicycle and go for
commute to work or to pick up groceries.
ride in a suburban part of town. According to the latest
surveys its less than 1%.

There isn't going to be a bicycle revolution in the US unless fuel/energy gets scarce and the resulting economic upheaval/revolution/anarchy will eclipse any car/bicycle conflicts.

Even if it were easier/safer to commute by bicycle, most people in the US won't do it. Getting into a car is just easier/cheaper. Everytime I leave the republic in the AM I see the line of cars coming into Boulder from Denver..bumper to bumper, same thing in the PM going back home. Most who work in Boulder, live elsewhere. They aren't going to ride 20-30 miles to work by bicycle. There would have to be a fundamental change in where people live and work, not influenced by the auto/highways/big distances. BUT the so called 'bedroom' community has been around for over 60 years. The basic structure isn't going to change. Even in cycling friendly Boulder, only a small percentage of people commute by bicycle. In less 'friendly' cities, expect less( Try riding in Tampa, for instance).

As much as cyclists love the bicycle and I do too, it will always be a fringe activity.

[Likes2ridefar]

There isn't going to be a bicycle revolution in the US unless fuel/energy gets scarce and the resulting economic upheaval/revolution/anarchy will eclipse any car/bicycle conflicts.

Even if it were easier/safer to commute by bicycle, most people in the US won't do it. Getting into a car is just easier/cheaper. Everytime I leave the republic in the AM I see the line of cars coming into Boulder from Denver..bumper to bumper, same thing in the PM going back home. Most who work in Boulder, live elsewhere. They aren't going to ride 20-30 miles to work by bicycle. There would have to be a fundamental change in where people live and work, not influenced by the auto/highways/big distances. BUT the so called 'bedroom' community has been around for over 60 years. The basic structure isn't going to change. Even in cycling friendly Boulder, only a small percentage of people commute by bicycle. In less 'friendly' cities, expect less( Try riding in Tampa, for instance).

As much as cyclists love the bicycle and I do too, it will always be a fringe activity.

Easier, yes, but not cheaper.

Generally, Americans are fat, lazy and weak and every year they get worse. a magazine I used to read predicted that unless energy sources are significantly changed for the future the surburban lifestyle, and the way it was designed, will go down as one of the worst mistakes in the history of the USA, or the downfall...

[rugbysecondrow]

Easier, yes, but not cheaper.

Generally, Americans are fat, lazy and weak and every year they get worse. a magazine I used to read predicted that unless energy sources are significantly changed for the future the surburban lifestyle will go down as one of the worst mistakes in the history of the USA, or the downfall...
Lazy and weak? Maybe you should explain your context. Easier? I disagree.

It is very one dimensional to just view the issue as a car or a car culture issue. It is not just a car culture, it is a school culture, housing culture, shopping culture, residential neighborhood culture etc. People ACCEPT long car commutes because of the various elements listed above not because they love their car or because they are lazy. It is often much MORE work to live in a different place from where you are employed. It often require more hours dedicated to work which means less hours for other activities, for example exercise. I live Maryland and work in DC. DC is a commuter town and there is no way I would live In DC with my family.

What it comes down to is an assessment of values, what is important to ones family.

I agree there should be a middle ground, but why should people have to live where they work?

[oldpotatoe]

Lazy and weak? Maybe you should explain your context. Easier? I disagree.

It is very one dimensional to just view the issue as a car or a car culture issue. It is not just a car culture, it is a school culture, housing culture, shopping culture, residential neighborhood culture etc. People ACCEPT long car commutes because of the various elements listed above not because they love their car or because they are lazy. It is often much MORE work to live in a different place from where you are employed. It often require more hours dedicated to work which means less hours for other activities, for example exercise. I live Maryland and work in DC. DC is a commuter town and there is no way I would live In DC with my family.

What it comes down to is an assessment of values, what is important to ones family.

I agree there should be a middle ground, but why should people have to live where they work?

They don't and they won't. Why bicycles will remain small and on the fringe in terms of transportation.

[Likes2ridefar]

They don't and they won't. Why bicycles will remain small and on the fringe in terms of transportation.

They don't and they won't until they can no longer afford their typically luxurious, wasteful lifestyle.

I'm not saying I'm an angel and expect an idealist society shaped around my beliefs, but what I just typed is supported by facts and statistics all over the place. americans are gaining weight, they are watching more tv, becoming less competitve internationally scholastically, and are relying more on machines to do their work for them. is this bad? no idea, but it's probably not sustainable for a country that considers themselves on top. new technology is always being developed, though, so perhaps it'll just get better. i hope so, for everyones sake.

I do my ride my bike to work every day. but I live in Manhattan. it takes me about 40 minutes to get to work and I ride regardless the weather. i see angry drivers every day, by themselves in a traffic jam where public transportation is a very viable alternative, hammering their horn, bashing their wheel, etc.

[Likes2ridefar]

Lazy and weak? Maybe you should explain your context. Easier? I disagree.



the way I was viewing it was it's physically easier to drive a car to work than ride a bike.

I'd also like to apologize for going probably way off topic:)

[Rueda Tropical]

Cagers? Funny how we view the world like this. Cyclists who do not want the inconvenience of waiting at a light are?????

As a rider and a driver, I get pissed at cyclists too. Cyclists often do ignore the law and they do have an attitude. Unfortunately, a majority of cyclists are dicks and it comes through when they ride. I have seen it while riding and driving and it is a pet peeve of mine.

Why would drivers be any different when they leave their cars and get on bikes? I don't agree a majority of cyclists or motorists are dicks. I've had plenty of motorists go out of their way to be polite while I've been out on a bike and encountered plenty of nice cyclists. However if 10% of the traffic is reckless and rude it's enough to make things really aggravating and dangerous.

Of course one jackass on a bike is more likely to hurt himself then someone else while a jackass in a car is a much bigger danger to everyone around him.

[patrick8037]

I used to be one of THOSE cyclists. Now I'm one of those cyclists. When I lived in DC, blew through intersections, rode the wrong way on one way streets, didn't wear a helmet, all that good stuff. Then I started working as a messenger. It became part of the job. Then I got hit the first time. Their fault as I had the right of way through a green light and they t-boned me making a left turn. After getting hit, you're paranoid for the first few weeks back on a bike. I rode a bit more cautiously, treating red lights as stop signs, going with the flow of traffic, but still not afraid to pull the stupid moves if I needed to. One of my favorite memories is getting a job at 3:47 from 1152 15th to 500 Indiana by 4:00. Made it past security and up to the 5th floor at 3:59. After a serious accident this past year, I now swear by a helmet. A few months ago, I left the messenger gig and now I focus on racing. Now, I live in the suburbs, and I'm finding myself forced to obey laws. Its not as easy to take the red light on a busy suburban road. So when opportunity persists, I take it.

To more directly address the topic, cyclists disobeying the law is no different from drivers disobeying the law. Drivers break the speed limit, make illegal u-turns, talk and text, rolling stops, etc. And in most cases, all this goes unenforced. Its not the most mature or water tight argument, but that's just my opinion.