Test Riding New Serottas

[Onno]

This past Friday, I was lucky enough to be able to test ride two brand new Serottas: a Legend ST and an Ottrot. Both were set up with new DuraAce, Mavic Ksyrium SSC wheels, and the fit was relatively close to my own bike, a 2000 Concours, with DuraAce 9, and old-fashioned Mavic Open-Pro wheels.

Both new bikes were noticeably lighter than my own (even with all the drool on them), which I attribute to the wheels and the full carbon fork. What I had not expected is that both bikes also felt much nimbler than my own bike. I've read that people find that some bikes accelerate faster than others, or climb better, which I've generally taken to be hyperbole. But, to my dismay (I don't want to feel like I need a new bike!!) both these bikes felt as though they accelerated much quicker and climbed better than my Concours. (And the new DuraAce is indeed MUCH better than the old DuraAce; the shifting was light and precise, and made me realize just how sloppy the old DuraAce is).

So the question is, what makes for the difference between these new bikes and my old one? My guess is that the frame differences are the least important. But is it the case that wheels can make such a difference? Does the new DuraAce crank also contribute to the extra responsiveness? Do I really need a brand new bike? Can you get a mortgage on a bike?

I'd be interested in hearing answers (definitive or otherwise) to these questions. They have been weighing on me all weekend, especially when I got back on the old Concours yesterday.

Onno

[davids]

Onno,

I'm guessing that you and I rode the same (or similar) bikes - Was this part of Serotta's test-ride program?

I had similar thoughts, comparing the Legend ST I rode to my Steel Axiom. The ride was a litte smoother, the handling a little more predictable, but the climbing and acceleration!!! Whoo-Hoo! And I am really curious to know why it is so. Lighter wheels? Lighter overall? Geometry?

Enquiring minds want to know, so they can spend again!

[Serotta PETE]

If your bike was "stock" geometry than some of the difference is in the materials. (Carbon and Ti).

They also have newer forks and both had ST rear ends. (will make a difference)

The wheels do make some difference also,,,,as does the fact that the frame size was close but not the same. THey also probably had different STEMs and Bars.

Net is it is very hard to quantify a single item that would make it feel different, (If you said it had tubulars with super light rims than that would make a difference.) As others have said in the past, "a good set of OPEN PRO or customer wheels are hard to beat"

Lastly - - - The Ottrott and Legend ST are great riding bikes. I have a Legend from 2000 that rides very nice BUT I also have a Legend ST that is a year old and that I really LOVE the ride!. It does not mean I am faster on the ST bike - just means I enjoy it more.

Others may provide more "scientific" reasons of comparison BUT it is mainly a like or lust factor. WE all have been dropped by folks riding older design or material bikes! I will bet a nice bottle of red that if we got on that older bike and they on the newere one - - WE WOULD STILL NOT PASS THEM!!

THis is attributed to less hours to ride, work and family obligations, age, weight, etc...... BUT the bottom line is that for those few hours we ride - - -the Ottrott. Legend, Sachs, etc - - offer max smile and fun!!


THis is just an opinion of a slow rider who has been riding many a year and has had more bikes than i care to count or will admit to. (YES and am very biased to Ben and team!!)

[CNY rider]

Onno, I live not too far away from you. If I may ask, where did you do your demo rides?

[Bradford]

Do I really need a brand new bike?
Onno


I'm sorry, I don't understand this question. I don't think many of the people on this site understand the question either. What does need have to do with it?

I say if you can't (or don't want to) swing the cost for new, start looking for used. It may take awhile, but you'll find something in your size. I found a Legend ST in my size on the Forum classifieds and I'm thrilled with it.

Yes, Virginia, there is a new Serotta in your future. :banana:

[Onno]

I'm sorry, I don't understand this question. I don't think many of the people on this site understand the question either. What does need have to do with it?


The idea is that I HAD thought that my lovely Concours was all the bike I needed, that it was close to perfect. I HAD thought that all the incremental changes in bike design, all the extra thousands one could spend, would make only negligible differences. The test rides unfortunately proved me wrong, that I could indeed get a bike that responds as differently to my Concours, as it did to my old steel bike.

Of course I don't actually "need" a new bike even now. I strongly desire one. I want the ultimate bike riding experience, every day. Or perhaps just the new wheels, fork, components that will turn my old bike into a close facsimile of what I just rode.

As for the test bikes, they were indeed of the Serotta Sierra Nevada test fleet, which tours the country ensnaring hapless bike geeks like myself.

Onno

[Bradford]

which tours the country ensnaring hapless bike geeks like myself.
Onno

Oh, belive me, I understand where you are coming from. I've been there.

A couple of years ago I was looking at bikes at Wheelworks. Andrew told me not to ride the Ottrot unless I had the money to buy one or I'd be miserable. When I was in Wheelworlks a few weeks ago when Ben came to speak, they asked me if I was coming back the next day to ride the Ottrot. I said no, I just don't want to know if there is a better bike than my Legend. If I do, I won't be able to stop thinking about it.

I think we all need a therapy more than a new bike. At least that's what my wife says. Until then, I say Carpe Ridem!

[Onno]

I was able to ride both the Legend St and the Ottrot, which were virtually identical in components. They rode very similarly; in fact, I think I actually preferred the Legend. The Ottrot absorbed road bumps better, but I prefer a little more road feel. This difference though is very subtle, in contrast to the nimbleness both bikes displayed compared to my older bike.

Onno

[zap]

Onno, can't answer your question.

But, from reading your post, your ride impression seems to mirror my own. The current Legends really are sweet bikes. When I last tested a Legend (last year), I too was pleasantly surprised how well the bike rode and the "snap" from the drivetrain. Best Ti frame out there IMO.

If I ever decide to reduce my stable to one road bike, the Legend (-st) would be my choice.

Wouldn't mind riding an Ottrott or Nove to see how it compares though.

[bcm119]

My 2 cents is this, and its assuming you are not a racer: theres a big difference in a bike feeling faster, and a bike actually being faster. You have to decide whether this matters to you. I doubt the bikes you demo'd are significantly faster than your current bike, but if they feel that much nicer, you could justify buying one based on the assumption that you'd ride it more.

However, if you're simply concerned with having a "faster" bike, it becomes harder to justify purchasing a new bike based on it's faster feel. My advice- have a little compassion for your Concours, I'm sure it doesn't want to be replaced by the baby-faced college grad with the glossy resume. If you must spend $$ now, buy some hot new wheels!

[Ozz]

Do I really need a brand new bike? Can you get a mortgage on a bike?

Yes, with "need" being defined as: that which you don't have

Yes, that would be called a "credit card".

:beer:

P.S. - what size is your Concours? ;)

[Climb01742]

my new ottrott is noticeably (to me anyway) lighter, snappier and just generally far sweeter than my first ottrott. whether all ottrotts have dramatically improved over the last two years, i don't know. and how much of the improvement in mine is due to what factors, don't know that either. but it feels far, far sweeter to me. sorry, not a very helpful post.

[Johny]

Onno,
As You Said...why Not Try A Lighter Wheelset (...carbon Rims+tubulars...) And A Full Carbon Fork On Your Concours?

[Onno]

I guess that's at the heart of my first question. Was the difference in bikes because of the wheels primarily? I'm really not thinking about buying a whole new bike, but I have been wondering if boutique wheels are just sexy looking, or if they do give a noticeably different--i.e. nimbler--ride. I can imagine buying a new set of wheels, and possibly a new all-carbon fork. In any case, don't worry, folks; I'm still very fond of my Concours...

It seems to me that unless one has a clear sense of the difference the components make, there's not a lot of point to trying out a bunch of different, or new, frames. It's like testing out amplifiers with different speakers.

Onno

[vaxn8r]

(And the new DuraAce is indeed MUCH better than the old DuraAce; the shifting was light and precise, and made me realize just how sloppy the old DuraAce is).

So the question is, what makes for the difference between these new bikes and my old one?
Onno
Maybe I'm way off base here, but I wonder if your Concours doesn't need a tune up? Have you thought about new shifting cables, new chain, new cassette? Those things can have a profound effect on the enjoyment of your ride.

New DA is nice but 9 sp DA should not feel sloppy.

[keno]

if you rode a 58, get off my demo!

The feeling I had of the Ottrott was that it wanted to go. My Concours could care less. You have better feelings about yours than I do mine. It's a great bike, but the thrill is gone for me. Until the Ottrott comes, my steel Spectrum continues to be my go to bike. I love the ride and imagine it will get time from me even once the Big O arrives.

Whether the Ottrott is "faster" than either of my other bikes I don't know, but as sure as the fed funds rate will go up, I was riding it. I wanted to ride that sucker hard, certainly harder than the Concours, and I did. I can't imagine putting the same kind of energy into the Concours. The return on investment just doesn't seem to be there for me. The Spectrum, yes, but it definitely feels slower on the uptake to me than the Ottrott but it is so wonderful in road feel.

They say in many arenas that perception is reality. Good enough for me.

Branford, it's a drug; stay away. You did the right thing. Stay strong.

keno

[Onno]

Maybe I'm way off base here, but I wonder if your Concours doesn't need a tune up? Have you thought about new shifting cables, new chain, new cassette? Those things can have a profound effect on the enjoyment of your ride.

New DA is nice but 9 sp DA should not feel sloppy.

Great idea! I have replaced the chain, but it may be worth changing the cables too. I suppose that wear on components like this is slow enough that one doesn't really notice it.

Still, what I'm calling the sloppiness is something that I think has been there to some degree all along--that the effort it takes to shift gears is not consistent for all gears at all times, that especially for upshifting (the black inside lever) the actual distance one has to move the lever seems inconsistent. None of this is really a problem (I still shift gears without thinking or being bothered by it) until I tried the new new Dura-Ace: absolutely light and consistent. I especially liked the left shifter, which seemed very light and precise.

In a few weeks, the test rides will be a distant memory, and the Concours will seem lovely again....

Onno

[vaxn8r]

My local mechanics recommend new cables at least once a year and every 6 months for heavy use. It really does make a difference.

I learned this lesson a few years ago. With my Record setup I was beginning to think it shifted so poorly compared to my buddy's DA 9 speed. I was sure it used to be better. Or maybe not??? One day I had the shop go through everything. New casette, new chain, new cables, housing. WOW! It felt like a new bike. And I have to say I do regular maintenance on all my bikes. I think it can creep up on you. Thus, you hear stories of chains lasting 10k miles or cassettes lasting 25k miles. I'm sure you can do it. Just don't expect performance shifting and braking with those 4 year old cables and housing.

[Wayne77]

The idea is that I HAD thought that my lovely Concours was all the bike I needed, that it was close to perfect. I HAD thought that all the incremental changes in bike design, all the extra thousands one could spend, would make only negligible differences. The test rides unfortunately proved me wrong, that I could indeed get a bike that responds as differently to my Concours, as it did to my old steel bike.

Repeating some of what others have already said in this and other threads:

All else being equal, I doubt very many people could tell a difference in ride characteristics between a triple butted frame (Legend) and a double butted one (Concours). That's about the only difference between the two that I know of, aside from different finish options. The Legend is probably slightly lighter than the Concours, but other than that, any "amazing" differences are probably in the wheels and differences in geometry - maybe the chainstays are shorter on one bike, tubing diameters could be different, etc etc. I would bet that a non-CS Concours could be made to ride almost exactly like a non-ST Legend, and vice versa, only the Legend would be somewhat lighter.

Unless the frame dimensions are pretty close, wheels are the same, similar components, we're comparing apples to oranges.

A friend of mine ordered a CIII a few years ago and being somewhat inexperienced, ended up with a fit that leaned towards a relaxed, more upright setup that might be suitable for someone of his experience level. This year he test rode a demo CSI and swore that the CSI was inherently more responsive and better handling in every way compared to a CIII. What really happened is his experience and tastes changed enough to allow him to appreciate and detect handling differences inherent in more race oriented geometries. His CIII was simply not designed to be a race bike. He could have test road a CIII setup like the CSI and felt the same way.

I say get the Legend or Ottrot becuase they are just plain sexier machines,(and a little lighter), not because of perceived miraculous handling or responsiveness differences. Get the one that makes you *feel*, or at least *look* faster :D Just my opinion of course...

[dirtdigger88]

Wayne- not to sound like I am disagreeing with you- because I am not :no: Can you get OS tubing on a Concours- I can remember? I started out looking at the Consours- but by time I would have paid the up charges for the polished finish and the head badge I think(?) and the reverse logos- I was so close to the price of a Legend that it only made sence to get one insead

Jason

[Wayne77]

Wayne- not to sound like I am disagreeing with you- because I am not :no: Can you get OS tubing on a Concours- I can remember? I started out looking at the Consours- but by time I would have paid the up charges for the polished finish and the head badge I think(?) and the reverse logos- I was so close to the price of a Legend that it only made sence to get one insead

Jason

My Concours has OS tubing - at least it says so on the spec sheet, and it looks that way in person I guess. I agree that another key area that sets the Legend apart are the finishing options that come without an upcharge. However, the 2005 Concours does look a little better this year in that it now comes standard with the head badge and a brushed finish, that while still not quite as nice as the polished, looks much better than the matte finish of years past, IMO. It looks very similar to how Sevens are finished. To me, if one wants a beauiful polished bare ti finish, the Legend is the way to go though. For painted ti, the Concours may be a viable option. (I went with half Cobalt, half brushed - yes I still owe the forum some pics)

I came very close to springing for the Legend, but I had to get my wife to beleive that I was "sacrificing" by going with the Concours instead :D Maybe I should have started out by asking for an Ottrot. :rolleyes:

Little does she know that afer a year-long cooling off period I plan on dropping the bomb about my intent to purchase a gorgeous Kirk Terraplane for my Sunday luxury ride.. :D :D Those frames speak to me!!!