Today Arizona Tragedy..... Pete Mckeon

[soul survivor]

NYT today

Rep. Giffords Critical After Ariz. Attack
By MARC LACEY and DAVID M. HERSZENHORN
TUCSON — Representative Gabrielle Giffords, an Arizona Democrat, and 17 other people were shot just north of Tucson on Saturday morning when a gunman opened fire outside a supermarket where Ms. Giffords was meeting with constituents for a “Congress on Your Corner” event.

Ms. Giffords, 40, was described as being in very critical condition at the University Medical Center in Tucson, where she was operated on by a team of neurosurgeons. Dr. Peter Rhee, medical director of the hospital’s trauma and critical care unit, said that she had been shot once in the head, “through and through,” with the bullet going through her brain.

“I can tell you at this time, I am very optimistic about her recovery,” Dr. Rhee said in a news conference. “We cannot tell what kind of recovery but I’m as optimistic as it can get in this kind of situation.”

Early into the evening, there was still confusion about the number who were killed.

An official with the Pima County Sheriff’s Department said that six people had been killed, including a federal a child about 9 years old and John M. Roll, the chief judge for the United States District Court for the District of Arizona.

President Obama said in a news conference that at least five had died, including the child and Judge Roll. The Sheriff’s Department said that a total of 18 were wounded, with the hospital confirming that 10 had been taken there.

Mr. Obama confirmed that a suspect was in custoday and said that the director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Robert S. Mueller III, was on his way to Arizona to oversee the investigation. Richard Kastigar, a supervisor with the sheriff’s department, identified the gunman as a 22-year-old who was in custody. Various media reports identified him Jared Lee Loughner.The shootings immediately raised questions about potential political motives, but officials did not speculate about what might have provoked the attack.

Ms. Giffords, who represents Arizona’s Eighth District in the southeastern corner of the state, has been an outspoken critic of Arizona’s tough immigration law, which is focused on identifying, prosecuting and deporting illegal immigrants, and she had come under criticism for her vote in favor of the Democrats’ health care law.

Friends said she had received threats over the years. Judge Roll had been involved in immigration cases and had previously received death threats.

Ms. Giffords was speaking to constituents in a supermarket alcove under a large white banner bearing her name when a man ran up and began firing. He then tried to escape on foot but was tackled by a bystander and taken into custody by the police. The Saturday event was outside a Safeway supermarket and was the first opportunity for constituents to meet with Ms. Giffords since she was sworn in for a third term on Wednesday.

Ms. Giffords was part of the Democratic class of 2006 that swept Democrats into the majority and that just turned over this past Tuesday to the Republicans. She narrowly survived a re-election bid in November.

“I saw the congresswoman talking to two people, and then this man suddenly came up and shot her in the head and then shot other people,” said Dr. Steven Rayle, a witness to the shootings and a former emergency room doctor who now works at a hospice. “I think it was a semiautomatic, and he must have got off 20 rounds.”

Dr. Rayle said that Ms. Giffords slumped to the ground and that staff members immediately rushed to her aid. “A staffer had his arm around her, and she was leaning against the window of the Safeway. He had a jacket or towel on her head,” the doctor said.

At least one of the other shooting victims helped Ms. Giffords, witnesses said.

Television coverage showed a chaotic scene outside a normally tranquil suburban shopping spot as emergency workers rushed the wounded away in stretchers. Some were taken from the site by helicopter.

Sylvia Lee, a friend of Ms. Giffords, told CNN that the congresswoman had received numerous threats.

Congressional leaders of both parties issued statements throughout the day expressing outrage and the shooting as well as concern and prayers for Ms. Giffords and her family.

The new House speaker, John A. Boehner, said: “I am horrified by the senseless attack on Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords and members of her staff. An attack on one who serves is an attack on all who serve. Acts and threats of violence against public officials have no place in our society. Our prayers are with Congresswoman Giffords, her staff, all who were injured and their families. This is a sad day for our country.”

Senator John M. McCain of Arizona, a Republican who serves in Washington with Ms. Giffords issued one of the strongest statements, saying: “I am horrified by the violent attack on Representative Gabrielle Giffords and many other innocent people by a wicked person who has no sense of justice or compassion. I pray for Gabby and the other victims, and for the repose of the souls of the dead and comfort for their families.” He added: “Whoever did this; whatever their reason, they are a disgrace to Arizona, this country and the human race, and they deserve and will receive the contempt of all decent people and the strongest punishment of the law.”

The House majority leader, Representative Eric Cantor, Republican of Virginia, described himself as “deeply horrified” and offered prayers. Mr. Cantor said he would send updates about potential changes to the House schedule as a result of the shooting.

Ms. Giffords is a centrist Democrat, who survived a tough re-election fight last year in part by stressing her strong support for gun rights and for tougher immigration controls, including tighter border security, even though she opposed the controversial Arizona law.

Last March, after the final approval of the Democrats’ health care law, which Ms. Giffords supported, the windows of her office in Tucson were broken or shot out in an act of vandalism. Similar acts were reported by other members of Congress, and several arrests were made, including that of a man who had threatened to kill Senator Patty Murray, Democrat of Washington.

And in August 2009, when there were demonstrations against the health care measure across the nation, a protester who showed up to meet Ms. Giffords at a supermarket event similar to Saturday’s was removed by the police when the pistol he had holstered under his armpit fell and bounced on the floor.

During the fall campaign, Sarah Palin, the former Republican vice-presidential candidate, posted a controversial map on her Facebook page depicting spots where Democrats were running for re-election; those Democrats were noted by crosshairs symbols like those seen through the scope of a gun. Ms. Giffords was among those on Ms. Palin’s map, which later removed the crosshairs symbols.

A statement posted on Ms. Palin’s Facebook page Saturday expressed her “sincere condolences” to the family of Ms. Giffords and the other shooting victims. Ms. Palin said that she and her family were praying for them “and for peace and justice,”

Ms. Giffords narrowly won re-election in November in a race that was dominated by the immigration issue. She held on to her seat even as dozens of her Democratic colleagues, including two fellow Democrats from Arizona — Ann Kirkpatrick and Harry Mitchell — were defeated, and she went on a districtwide “thank you” tour after the race.

In an interview at the Capitol this week, Ms. Giffords said she was excited to count herself among the Democrats who joined the new House Republican majority in reading the Constitution aloud from the House floor. She said she was particularly pleased with being assigned the reading of the First Amendment.

“I wanted to be here,” she said. “I think it’s important. Reflecting on the Constitution in a bipartisan way is a good way to start the year.” As a Democrat, Ms. Giffords is something of anomaly in Arizona, and in her district, which has traditionally tilted Republican. Last year, she barely squeaked to victory over a Republican challenger, Jesse Kelly, with just a bit over a 1 percent margin. She was aided in part by a blue streak that runs through part of her district in Southern Arizona, which has nonetheless normally been held by a Republican.

But Ms. Giffords had clearly heard the message that constituents were dissatisfied with Democratic leaders in Washington. At the Capitol this week, Ms. Giffords refused to support the outgoing Democratic House speaker, Nancy Pelosi of California, in her symbolic contest with the Republican, Mr. Boehner of Ohio.

Instead, Ms. Giffords cast her vote for Representative John Lewis, a Georgia Democrat and hero of the civil rights movement.

“It’s not surprising that today Gabby was doing what she always does: listening to the hopes and concerns of her neighbors,” Mr. Obama said during a news conference Saturday afternoon, calling her a “friend of mine” and an “extraordinary public servant.” “I know Gabby is as tough as they come,” he said. “Obviously, our hearts go out to the family members of those who have been slain.”

“We’re going to get to the bottom of this, and we’re going to get through this,” Mr. Obama said.

In 2006, Ms. Giffords ran in an open seat that was vacated by a centrist Republican, Jim Kolbe, and defeated a conservative Republican who was tough on immigration and border enforcement.

She has worked to win the confidence of her constituents on border issues and beat the White House to the punch last year by announcing administration plans to put more National Guard troops at the border.

Ms. Giffords is married to the astronaut Mark E. Kelly, who is a veteran of three space flights including serving as commander of a space shuttle Discovery in 2008. Their wedding in December 2007 was attended by Robert B. Reich, the former Labor secretary.

Rabbi Stephanie Aaron, who married the couple and leads Congregation Chaverim in Tuscon, said Ms. Giffords had never expressed any concern about her safety.

“No fear. I’ve only seen the bravest possible, most intelligent young congresswoman,” Rabbi Aaron said. “I feel like this is really one of those proverbial — seemingly something coming out of nowhere.”

At Ms. Giffords’s district office, a group of some 50 people gathered and formed a prayer circle with peace signs. Chris Cole, the Tucson police officer whose neighborhood beat includes the district office, said of the shooting: “This kind of thing just doesn’t happen in Tucson.”

Behind the office, in the parking lot, campaign volunteers were standing around a car with the door open, listening to the live radio broadcast of a hospital news conference updating the congresswoman’s condition. A cheer went up when it was announced she was still alive.

The volunteers included Kelly Canedy and her mother, Patricia Canedy, both longtime campaign workers.

Patricia Canedy had worked for Ms. Giffords since she served in the state senate while Kelly, her daughter, moved to Tucson 13 years ago and was active in last year’s campaign and in the health care debate.

A personal letter from Ms. Giffords arrived at Kelly Canedy’s home yesterday, thanking her and her mother for their help on the health-care issue. “It’s the first political activity I ever did,” Kelly Canedy said.

“She’s one of those people who remembers you. She always spoke to me by my first name,” Kelly Canedy said. “She loved everybody. She was very easy to talk to. She was one of the main reasons I will stay involved in politics.”

Patricia Canedy said she was frequently part of the Saturday counterprotests against the Tea Party. “They were always here and mostly they were very negative and most of the attention was about health care. We were told by Gaby not to engage and not to argue.”

Sarah Palin, the former Republican governor of Alaska who had encouraged her supporters to try to unseat Ms. Giffords in the last election, issued a statement on Facebook.

“My sincere condolences are offered to the family of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and the other victims of today’s tragic shooting in Arizona,” Ms. Palin said. “On behalf of Todd and my family, we all pray for the victims and their families, and for peace and justice.”

Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. called Ms. Giffords “a principled leader and a consensus-builder” in a statement, and he also addressed Judge Roll, calling him a “dedicated jurist whose death is a terrible loss to Arizona and to the country.”

[BumbleBeeDave]

Didn't you see the other thread?

What makes you think this one is going to go downhill and less swiftly?

Should I go ahead and lock it now? . . .

BBD

[TMB]

Didn't you see the other thread?

What makes you think this one is going to go downhill and less swiftly?

Should I go ahead and lock it now? . . .

BBD


Yes ...

[StellaBlue]

Please do

[akelman]

Let me join the chorus: close the thread, please.

[Blue Jays]

http://www.psdgraphics.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/padlock-icon.jpg

[akelman]

Actually, let me add to what I said above: I'm increasingly pleased that I don't know much of anything about the political leanings of the folks here. And I'd prefer to keep it that way. Some people will probably say that I'm burying my head in the sand. That's fair enough, I suppose. But really, there are plenty of other places for me to read about politics. And if I feel like picking a fight about politics or having someone else pick one with me, I know the blogs to visit. Which is to say, I like that this place is about bikes. So, when I fight here, it's about the foolishness of using Shimano, or the abomination that is carbon fiber, or perils of shipping to Canada. Those are fights from which I won't back down.

Having said all of that, my sympathies to anyone who was affected by today's events. It's a terrible tragedy, and the victims, their families, and their friends are very much in my thoughts.

[Pete Serotta]

Lots of time was spent below of just typing it. Reason was?

No matter what is below - "Someone killed numerous people in a senseless act"""!!! The below is also a cut and paste from the broadcast to date "today"


Rep. Giffords Critical After Ariz. Attack
By MARC LACEY and DAVID M. HERSZENHORN
TUCSON — Representative Gabrielle Giffords, an Arizona Democrat, and 17 other people were shot just north of Tucson on Saturday morning when a gunman opened fire outside a supermarket where Ms. Giffords was meeting with constituents for a “Congress on Your Corner” event.

Ms. Giffords, 40, was described as being in very critical condition at the University Medical Center in Tucson, where she was operated on by a team of neurosurgeons. Dr. Peter Rhee, medical director of the hospital’s trauma and critical care unit, said that she had been shot once in the head, “through and through,” with the bullet going through her brain.

“I can tell you at this time, I am very optimistic about her recovery,” Dr. Rhee said in a news conference. “We cannot tell what kind of recovery but I’m as optimistic as it can get in this kind of situation.”

Early into the evening, there was still confusion about the number who were killed.

An official with the Pima County Sheriff’s Department said that six people had been killed, including a federal a child about 9 years old and John M. Roll, the chief judge for the United States District Court for the District of Arizona.

President Obama said in a news conference that at least five had died, including the child and Judge Roll. The Sheriff’s Department said that a total of 18 were wounded, with the hospital confirming that 10 had been taken there.

Mr. Obama confirmed that a suspect was in custoday and said that the director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Robert S. Mueller III, was on his way to Arizona to oversee the investigation. Richard Kastigar, a supervisor with the sheriff’s department, identified the gunman as a 22-year-old who was in custody. Various media reports identified him Jared Lee Loughner.The shootings immediately raised questions about potential political motives, but officials did not speculate about what might have provoked the attack.

Ms. Giffords, who represents Arizona’s Eighth District in the southeastern corner of the state, has been an outspoken critic of Arizona’s tough immigration law, which is focused on identifying, prosecuting and deporting illegal immigrants, and she had come under criticism for her vote in favor of the Democrats’ health care law.

Friends said she had received threats over the years. Judge Roll had been involved in immigration cases and had previously received death threats.

Ms. Giffords was speaking to constituents in a supermarket alcove under a large white banner bearing her name when a man ran up and began firing. He then tried to escape on foot but was tackled by a bystander and taken into custody by the police. The Saturday event was outside a Safeway supermarket and was the first opportunity for constituents to meet with Ms. Giffords since she was sworn in for a third term on Wednesday.

Ms. Giffords was part of the Democratic class of 2006 that swept Democrats into the majority and that just turned over this past Tuesday to the Republicans. She narrowly survived a re-election bid in November.

“I saw the congresswoman talking to two people, and then this man suddenly came up and shot her in the head and then shot other people,” said Dr. Steven Rayle, a witness to the shootings and a former emergency room doctor who now works at a hospice. “I think it was a semiautomatic, and he must have got off 20 rounds.”

Dr. Rayle said that Ms. Giffords slumped to the ground and that staff members immediately rushed to her aid. “A staffer had his arm around her, and she was leaning against the window of the Safeway. He had a jacket or towel on her head,” the doctor said.

At least one of the other shooting victims helped Ms. Giffords, witnesses said.

Television coverage showed a chaotic scene outside a normally tranquil suburban shopping spot as emergency workers rushed the wounded away in stretchers. Some were taken from the site by helicopter.

Sylvia Lee, a friend of Ms. Giffords, told CNN that the congresswoman had received numerous threats.

Congressional leaders of both parties issued statements throughout the day expressing outrage and the shooting as well as concern and prayers for Ms. Giffords and her family.

The new House speaker, John A. Boehner, said: “I am horrified by the senseless attack on Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords and members of her staff. An attack on one who serves is an attack on all who serve. Acts and threats of violence against public officials have no place in our society. Our prayers are with Congresswoman Giffords, her staff, all who were injured and their families. This is a sad day for our country.”

Senator John M. McCain of Arizona, a Republican who serves in Washington with Ms. Giffords issued one of the strongest statements, saying: “I am horrified by the violent attack on Representative Gabrielle Giffords and many other innocent people by a wicked person who has no sense of justice or compassion. I pray for Gabby and the other victims, and for the repose of the souls of the dead and comfort for their families.” He added: “Whoever did this; whatever their reason, they are a disgrace to Arizona, this country and the human race, and they deserve and will receive the contempt of all decent people and the strongest punishment of the law.”

The House majority leader, Representative Eric Cantor, Republican of Virginia, described himself as “deeply horrified” and offered prayers. Mr. Cantor said he would send updates about potential changes to the House schedule as a result of the shooting.

Ms. Giffords is a centrist Democrat, who survived a tough re-election fight last year in part by stressing her strong support for gun rights and for tougher immigration controls, including tighter border security, even though she opposed the controversial Arizona law.

Last March, after the final approval of the Democrats’ health care law, which Ms. Giffords supported, the windows of her office in Tucson were broken or shot out in an act of vandalism. Similar acts were reported by other members of Congress, and several arrests were made, including that of a man who had threatened to kill Senator Patty Murray, Democrat of Washington.

And in August 2009, when there were demonstrations against the health care measure across the nation, a protester who showed up to meet Ms. Giffords at a supermarket event similar to Saturday’s was removed by the police when the pistol he had holstered under his armpit fell and bounced on the floor.

During the fall campaign, Sarah Palin, the former Republican vice-presidential candidate, posted a controversial map on her Facebook page depicting spots where Democrats were running for re-election; those Democrats were noted by crosshairs symbols like those seen through the scope of a gun. Ms. Giffords was among those on Ms. Palin’s map, which later removed the crosshairs symbols.

A statement posted on Ms. Palin’s Facebook page Saturday expressed her “sincere condolences” to the family of Ms. Giffords and the other shooting victims. Ms. Palin said that she and her family were praying for them “and for peace and justice,”

Ms. Giffords narrowly won re-election in November in a race that was dominated by the immigration issue. She held on to her seat even as dozens of her Democratic colleagues, including two fellow Democrats from Arizona — Ann Kirkpatrick and Harry Mitchell — were defeated, and she went on a districtwide “thank you” tour after the race.

In an interview at the Capitol this week, Ms. Giffords said she was excited to count herself among the Democrats who joined the new House Republican majority in reading the Constitution aloud from the House floor. She said she was particularly pleased with being assigned the reading of the First Amendment.

“I wanted to be here,” she said. “I think it’s important. Reflecting on the Constitution in a bipartisan way is a good way to start the year.” As a Democrat, Ms. Giffords is something of anomaly in Arizona, and in her district, which has traditionally tilted Republican. Last year, she barely squeaked to victory over a Republican challenger, Jesse Kelly, with just a bit over a 1 percent margin. She was aided in part by a blue streak that runs through part of her district in Southern Arizona, which has nonetheless normally been held by a Republican.

But Ms. Giffords had clearly heard the message that constituents were dissatisfied with Democratic leaders in Washington. At the Capitol this week, Ms. Giffords refused to support the outgoing Democratic House speaker, Nancy Pelosi of California, in her symbolic contest with the Republican, Mr. Boehner of Ohio.

Instead, Ms. Giffords cast her vote for Representative John Lewis, a Georgia Democrat and hero of the civil rights movement.

“It’s not surprising that today Gabby was doing what she always does: listening to the hopes and concerns of her neighbors,” Mr. Obama said during a news conference Saturday afternoon, calling her a “friend of mine” and an “extraordinary public servant.” “I know Gabby is as tough as they come,” he said. “Obviously, our hearts go out to the family members of those who have been slain.”

“We’re going to get to the bottom of this, and we’re going to get through this,” Mr. Obama said.

In 2006, Ms. Giffords ran in an open seat that was vacated by a centrist Republican, Jim Kolbe, and defeated a conservative Republican who was tough on immigration and border enforcement.

She has worked to win the confidence of her constituents on border issues and beat the White House to the punch last year by announcing administration plans to put more National Guard troops at the border.

Ms. Giffords is married to the astronaut Mark E. Kelly, who is a veteran of three space flights including serving as commander of a space shuttle Discovery in 2008. Their wedding in December 2007 was attended by Robert B. Reich, the former Labor secretary.

Rabbi Stephanie Aaron, who married the couple and leads Congregation Chaverim in Tuscon, said Ms. Giffords had never expressed any concern about her safety.

“No fear. I’ve only seen the bravest possible, most intelligent young congresswoman,” Rabbi Aaron said. “I feel like this is really one of those proverbial — seemingly something coming out of nowhere.”

At Ms. Giffords’s district office, a group of some 50 people gathered and formed a prayer circle with peace signs. Chris Cole, the Tucson police officer whose neighborhood beat includes the district office, said of the shooting: “This kind of thing just doesn’t happen in Tucson.”

Behind the office, in the parking lot, campaign volunteers were standing around a car with the door open, listening to the live radio broadcast of a hospital news conference updating the congresswoman’s condition. A cheer went up when it was announced she was still alive.

The volunteers included Kelly Canedy and her mother, Patricia Canedy, both longtime campaign workers.

Patricia Canedy had worked for Ms. Giffords since she served in the state senate while Kelly, her daughter, moved to Tucson 13 years ago and was active in last year’s campaign and in the health care debate.

A personal letter from Ms. Giffords arrived at Kelly Canedy’s home yesterday, thanking her and her mother for their help on the health-care issue. “It’s the first political activity I ever did,” Kelly Canedy said.

“She’s one of those people who remembers you. She always spoke to me by my first name,” Kelly Canedy said. “She loved everybody. She was very easy to talk to. She was one of the main reasons I will stay involved in politics.”

Patricia Canedy said she was frequently part of the Saturday counterprotests against the Tea Party. “They were always here and mostly they were very negative and most of the attention was about health care. We were told by Gaby not to engage and not to argue.”

Sarah Palin, the former Republican governor of Alaska who had encouraged her supporters to try to unseat Ms. Giffords in the last election, issued a statement on Facebook.

“My sincere condolences are offered to the family of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and the other victims of today’s tragic shooting in Arizona,” Ms. Palin said. “On behalf of Todd and my family, we all pray for the victims and their families, and for peace and justice.”

Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. called Ms. Giffords “a principled leader and a consensus-builder” in a statement, and he also addressed Judge Roll, calling him a “dedicated jurist whose death is a terrible loss to Arizona and to the country.”

[Pete Serotta]

Folks IDs can be banned if they truly need to. NO inflating of things about this. Go see some neighbors or friends for your discussions on this,

THANKS


The items below were 90% or more from what CNN, WSJ, and CBS were publishing.


(I hate censorship but I do hate the inflaming of a situation more and will take ids out of forum for flagrant acts of inciting with no information value to the vast majority of others)

PLease no attacks nor non new info posts.

The original poster, I ask "WHY post if it is already in most major news on Internet or TV.?" No need for duplication.)

Yes I, like mostl others, have opinions BUT this is not the place for them on these type of events

[swt]

The child was 10. I went in to tell my wife about it and I broke down and cried. I haven't cried in a long time. I am still so sad.

[eddief]

the whole nation is focused on this local spree today. as i said, sad. but we americans, for many of us, don't bat an eye at americans and civilians killed each day in our wars. i suppose it is the senselessness of one vs the other:

http://www.defense.gov/news/casualty.pdf

i am in no way attempting to make this into something political or any less tragic than it really is. just noticing what seems to get our attention. me included.

the media is not "allowed" to show the mayhem of war.

[rugbysecondrow]

Agreed. The Baltimore Sun often has stories about killings that take place in the city. Last week, a 38 year old man with autism was in his front yard taking his dog out before he went to bed when he was shot dead for no reason. No past history of crime, not from a bad family, not even the type of neighborhood where this is prevalent.

Senseless acts of violence are just that, senseless. Normal people find it nearly impossible to make sense of such events. Because of this, I think even the media has a hard time conveying it.



the whole nation is focused on this local spree today. as i said, sad. but we americans, for many of us, don't bat an eye at americans killed each day in our wars. i suppose it is the senselessness of one vs the other:

http://www.defense.gov/news/casualty.pdf

i am in no way attempting to make this into something political or any less tragic than it really is. just noticing what seems to get our attention. me included.

the media is not "allowed" to show the mayhem of war.

[Ray]

The guy appears to have been too much of a total wack job to have had any sort of coherent political philosophy he was killing for, so I wouldn't blame this on the vitriol and demonization we hear from and of both sides these days. But one thing I'm mildly encouraged by coming out of this horrible event is the evident shock and dismay on the parts of EVERYONE who's commented of any political stripe. Some of Giffords' most stringent opponents from the Arizona delegation were very clearly shaken to the core by this and their strong feelings for this woman came through. As you'd expect and as it should be, but we don't see that deeply human side of these people very often. And I think we need to.

I HOPE that if those in the political arena, even the most extreme on both sides, will let the humanity of their colleagues on the other side be known rather than just constantly demonizing each other publicly, that the marginal wackos in society will hear some of that and perhaps learn to see the people they disagree with as just that, people they disagree with, rather than the horrible treasonous criminals they've come to believe they are. That would be a very good thing for all of us. Maybe if Ed Shultz and Rush Limbough can take it down a notch and limit their comments to for and against rather than "psycho talk' or accusations of treason we could get back to some level of political civility in this country. Maybe. But there's no money in that sort of broadcasting so I'm not optimistic.

I haven't lived in Tucson in a very long time, but I grew up there and still have a lot of friends there. The sick kid who did this is enrolled at the community college that we moved to Tucson for my Dad to take a spot on their founding faculty back in 1968. An old high school friend of mine is the president of that school now, or at least one of its satellite campuses - I haven't talked to her in a couple of years. The headquarters of the congresswoman that had some sort of bomb threat or suspicious package at today is about a mile from where I went to high school and I rode past it on my bike every day headed for school. And when I was the age of the kid who did this, I was having a publication I was the circulation manager for delivered to that very Safeway store, some Fridays driving the truck myself. Despite my lack of current connection to Tucson, this has hit me awfully close to home today. But hopefully it has hit everyone that way whether they even know where Tucson is.

A very very upsetting and sad day. Maybe some good can come of it, even if only for a little while. All thoughts to the victims and their families. And to this poor messed up sick kid who probably doesn't even begin to understand what he's done.

-Ray

[Climb01742]

as we try to make sense of this, there are, i think, two "answers" that are at the opposite ends of the spectrum, yet both are equally shallow.

it would be easy to lay the blame for this at the doorstep of political extremism.

and it would be easy to lay the blame on a deranged individual.

sadly, the truth is probably somewhere in the muddy, complicated middle.

truth is often heart-breaking but almost never simple.

[akelman]

That's very well said. Thanks.

[Lifelover]

as we try to make sense of this, there are, i think, two "answers" that are at the opposite ends of the spectrum, yet both are equally shallow.

it would be easy to lay the blame for this at the doorstep of political extremism.

and it would be easy to lay the blame on a deranged individual.

sadly, the truth is probably somewhere in the muddy, complicated middle.

truth is often heart-breaking but almost never simple.


I could not disagree any more. Regardless of anyone's political views, this can ONLY be the work of a deranged individual.

[akelman]

I think the point was that even the most deranged individuals act in a particular context rather than in a vacuum. At least that's how I read it.

[akelman]

Sorry, I should have added that you're entitled to your view of this tragedy. And I didn't mean to suggest that mine or anybody else's perspective was more valid or more accurate than yours.

[tuxbailey]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/08/AR2011010802422.html?hpid=topnews

This gave me chills.

>>
Law enforcement and medical officials in Arizona said that at least 18 people were shot in the melee and that six of them had died, including John M. Roll, the chief U.S. District judge in Arizona, and Gabe Zimmerman, Giffords's local director of community outreach. Also killed was Christina Taylor Green, 9, who was born on Sept. 11, 2001, and had gone to the event with a neighbor. Two other Giffords staffers, district director Ron Barber and community outreach aide Pam Simon, were wounded.

<<

[SamIAm]

it would be easy to lay the blame for this at the doorstep of political extremism.



When did America lose its concept of individual responsibility?

[Climb01742]

When did America lose its concept of individual responsibility?

sam, two points.

you've made quite a leap from my comment to your question.

and, like the truth, responsibility is a complex thing to pinpoint. we all live in the context of a society and an historical moment. until we know more about this situation, i don't think it's possible to say how much responsibility lies where. it is certainly not my intent to let the gunman 'off the hook' by any means. he, obviously, bears a great deal of responsibility. but 'lone gunman' explanations are too often used to let forces beyond the gunman off the hook. loaded words are no less dangerous than loaded guns.

shades of grey are no less true than black and white. i believe we are dealing with shades of responsibility here, but until more is known, no one can say how those shades are gradated.

[97CSI]

When did America lose its concept of individual responsibility?Unfortunately, it mostly started with the national election in 1980. Politicians with a public voice who take such extreme actions as targeting those other politicians they oppose with crosshairs and naming them by name bear some of the responsibility for their actions.

[93legendti]

I am glad the facts filtering in are disproving the knee jerk reaction to blame the "usual suspects".

[oldmill]

The guy sounds like a nut, not surprisingly. I don't think anyone would have expected otherwise. But as the sheriff said, that's precisely why the current level of vitriol from some highly paid TV and radio types is dangerous, and "has consequences."

[oldpotatoe]

The guy sounds like a nut, not surprisingly. I don't think anyone would have expected otherwise. But as the sheriff said, that's precisely why the current level of vitriol from some highly paid TV and radio types is dangerous, and "has consequences."

I'd like to know how/where he got the gun. Plus where did he get the extended magazine?

Not going to speculate on anything but the mental health side of medicine needs to open their records to background checks.

[Ray]

To sort of address some of Climbs fundamental point, I think nutjobs are nutjobs and I seriously doubt that any nutjobs are CREATED by political ideology or political anger. Where I think Climb has a point is that all of the angriest political rhetoric can give your average unfocussed local nutjob something to focus on, a handy and convenient target. So I ultimately think that the angriest political rhetoric can move an existing wacko into a more political direction (and maybe even put him in touch with other like-minded fools), but I very very seriously doubt that political anger causes an otherwise sane person to lose it completely and start killing people. I think it probably improves the odds that when Wacko "X" finally goes ALL the way over the edge and starts killing people, its more likely that the targets will have some sort of political component than just going off and randomly shooting up a shopping mall or office building. But I can't even begin to blame this guy's warped state of mind on even the harshest of ideologues on ANY side of the political battles. They guy who flew the plane into the IRS building had much bigger problems than the IRS, but the IRS became a handy focal point for his rage. The uni-bomber wasn't crazy because of the people he targeted - he was crazy and found political/societal targets to aim all of that crazy rage AT. So, if you assume X number of crazies are going to kill X number of people every year, is it better or worse or no better or worse if some of the targets are political?

If the overwhelmingly human reactions of a lot of right wing political colleagues who knew, liked, and respected the congresswoman can help some of the harshest political ideologues to start seeing the people they oppose as PEOPLE THEY OPPOSE, rather than as full-on enemies and treasonous evil-doers, maybe it'll make a difference and help re-civilize the civic debate. My guess is it will do exactly that. For a little while. But it won't take long for the MSNBC and FOX folks to get over their newfound wisdom and start painting the other side as evil and dangerous, rather than just wrong. I hope I'm wrong and it lasts a good long time. But we've been in similar places before and the "coming together" phase, while very real, doesn't last very long.

-Ray

[sjbraun]

This just adds to the hurt.

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/article_28c8e686-1ca6-5b3e-ab85-965bd22c68c0.html

[93legendti]

Yes. Let's re-civilize the debate. The President can start by agreeing to stop calling Republicans "enemies".

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . at least I am trying to--that every story I have seen that lays any blame for this on "extreme political rhetoric" or something of the sort is quoting the SHERIFF and his comments in a press conference. It's his PERSONAL OPINION.

Unfortunately, though, the spin the media stories seem to be taking is that it's some sort of professional pronouncement. It's not. There's way, WAY too little information right now to be able to make any kind of valid conclusions--but that never seems to stop people from doing it.

BBD

[johnnymossville]

Yes. Let's re-civilize the debate. The President can start by agreeing to stop calling Republicans "enemies".

or like when the President said "If they bring knives to the fight we'll bring guns."

probably said it on the rare occasion he wasn't on teleprompter.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Keep it civil or I'm lockin' it down . . .

THANK you . . .

BBD

[1centaur]

First, I think it's VERY clear that the left declares people on the right to be evil and treasonous (Bush), greedy (many), hatemongers (Limbaugh) at least as much as the converse. I hear far more attack of ideas from right to left than vice versa. Lefties are wrong; righties are bad. That's what most of the dialog sounds like. In both cases, the wrongness and the badness can be paired with ideas and personalities, but there's a tilt there that seems plain as day to me.

Second, the idea that changing the behavior of civilized people will have much effect on nuts is one I tend to resist. It's a cousin of the "let's sit down (the magic sitting act) and talk with terrorists and maybe they'll like us" tripe. Nuts will find excuses to be nuts no matter what. "She had a red dress on," "he did not care about the poor," "an ancient dog told me to do it," ... the excuses are never ending. To try and build all public dialog around not triggering mental cases would do far more harm than good to society. If every time we spoke or put up a graphic a primary consideration was "what would a nutcase think of this?" we would be hamstrung (and mostly wrong).

Olberman and Taibbi, Limbaugh and Beck, they make money stirring enough emotion that people care enough to come back and listen/read/pay. They are not in the "fair" business. Not one of them is worth listening to for long, IMO. But they have a right to their form of communication and they remind us it's worth feeling passionate about what the other side is doing from time to time. Those passions swept in Obama and swept out much of Congress. I just hope there's a constant place in mainstream media for a cooly debated center to even out the edges.

[sjbraun]

Okay, I've been for a ride.
Rode by Representative Gifford's office this morning, saw the spontaneous memorial that's been growing since yesterday.

Best if I withdraw my previous comments, no need to argue when understanding seems unlikely.

[97CSI]

. . . at least I am trying to--that every story I have seen that lays any blame for this on "extreme political rhetoric" or something of the sort is quoting the SHERIFF and his comments in a press conference. It's his PERSONAL OPINION.

Unfortunately, though, the spin the media stories seem to be taking is that it's some sort of professional pronouncement. It's not. There's way, WAY too little information right now to be able to make any kind of valid conclusions--but that never seems to stop people from doing it.

BBDNot sure I can agree with this. He is the sheriff and has to deal with these problems on a day-in and day-out basis, so any pronouncement he makes is going to be based on observations from his professional position. He will be interviewed soon, so we will get more info.

probably said it on the rare occasion he wasn't on teleprompter.So he uses a teleprompter. What's the big deal with that? Most all politicians do so these days, including his predecessors (or they use notes, etc.).

[BumbleBeeDave]

It's gettin' REAL close . . .

It's not Obama's fault. It's not Limbaugh's fault. It's not "liberals'" fault. It's not "Tea Party-er's" fault . . .

It's a tragedy and at this point it's the height or irresponsibility to blame one "side" or another.

Everybody shut your political outrage machines down and be grateful you've got this chance from Pete to even prove you can do it.

CAN you all do it? . . .

BBD

[BumbleBeeDave]

Not sure I can agree with this. He is the sheriff and has to deal with these problems on a day-in and day-out basis, so any pronouncement he makes is going to be based on observations from his professional position. He will be interviewed soon, so we will get more info.

. . . the sheriff could not have been acting on much more information about THIS particular incident than anybody else was. It was just too soon afterward.

If he re-iterates the same thing a week from now after many more facts will be known, then I will be much more likely yo believe he has the current context--rather than just general ongoing personal opinion--in mind and that what he says really does have some basis in fact.

BBD

[Ray]

First, I think it's VERY clear that the left declares people on the right to be evil and treasonous (Bush), greedy (many), hatemongers (Limbaugh) at least as much as the converse. I hear far more attack of ideas from right to left than vice versa. Lefties are wrong; righties are bad. That's what most of the dialog sounds like. In both cases, the wrongness and the badness can be paired with ideas and personalities, but there's a tilt there that seems plain as day to me.

Second, the idea that changing the behavior of civilized people will have much effect on nuts is one I tend to resist. It's a cousin of the "let's sit down (the magic sitting act) and talk with terrorists and maybe they'll like us" tripe. Nuts will find excuses to be nuts no matter what. "She had a red dress on," "he did not care about the poor," "an ancient dog told me to do it," ... the excuses are never ending. To try and build all public dialog around not triggering mental cases would do far more harm than good to society. If every time we spoke or put up a graphic a primary consideration was "what would a nutcase think of this?" we would be hamstrung (and mostly wrong).

Olberman and Taibbi, Limbaugh and Beck, they make money stirring enough emotion that people care enough to come back and listen/read/pay. They are not in the "fair" business. Not one of them is worth listening to for long, IMO. But they have a right to their form of communication and they remind us it's worth feeling passionate about what the other side is doing from time to time. Those passions swept in Obama and swept out much of Congress. I just hope there's a constant place in mainstream media for a cooly debated center to even out the edges.
I agree with this completely. I wouldn't exempt the right or the left. In this PARTICULAR case, I think its the very humane reactions from politicians on the right that could have the most impact particularly because the victim was a Democrat. If the shoe had been on the other foot, I'd fully expect politicians on the left to take the same tone and hopefully it would be instructive and calming to some of the more extreme haters on the left. Yeah, there are haters on both sides and I think its incumbent on the leaders from both sides to attempt to tamp down and discredit those on their sides who are angriest and prone to recommending voilent and uncivilized responses.

FWIW, I personally find Ed Shultz to be every bit as infuriating and extreme and hateful to listen to as Rush Limbaugh - the fact that I occasionally agree with him and almost never agree with Rush is irrelevant. I made a point to tune into both Fox and MSNBC for a little while yesterday. The tone on both was very subdued and professional and wise. As most were in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. Oh, but that it would last...

-Ray

[Fixed]

the kid was a nut case he probably didn't even know what the issues are
he may have just wanted attention imho
does every member of congress need a s. s. agent as a bodyguard i think so
cheers

[Rueda Tropical]

Harsh rhetoric is nothing new in politics but the violent fringe is another story. In the 60's it was leftist kooks bombing and murdering. In the last few years it's been right wing kooks. Soveirgn citizens, militia types, violent religious fanatics and various racist groups are the current equivalent of the Weather Underground and the various left wing violent nut cases of the 60's.

3 Pittsburgh cops were murdered by a nut that thought Obama was going to take his guns away. A nut in Tennessee murdered a bunch of parishioners in a Unitarian church during a children's musical because he wanted to kill Liberals. Several abortion doctors have been murdered and clinics bombed. A couple of Chilean students in Florida were murdered by an anti-immigrant extremist. A suicide bomber flew a plane into an IRS office. A white supremacist went on a shooting spree shooting non-whites in Massachusetts. There are dozens more incidents in the last 2 or 3 years that have resulted in dozens more deaths. The Arizona incident seems less political and more pure psycho but there has been a lot of political/religious violence.

Unfortunate, it just requires zero tolerance from law enforcement for domestic terrorism. No one of any political or religious stripe should fear violence in the USA for their beliefs or for carrying out legal work.

[bironi]

Please read this profile of the shooter. I think the discussion on political discourse should remain separate from this shooting incident until further information is available.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/us/politics/09shooter.html?_r=1&hp

:beer:

[Climb01742]

First, I think it's VERY clear that the left declares people on the right to be evil and treasonous (Bush), greedy (many), hatemongers (Limbaugh) at least as much as the converse. I hear far more attack of ideas from right to left than vice versa. Lefties are wrong; righties are bad. That's what most of the dialog sounds like. In both cases, the wrongness and the badness can be paired with ideas and personalities, but there's a tilt there that seems plain as day to me.

Second, the idea that changing the behavior of civilized people will have much effect on nuts is one I tend to resist. It's a cousin of the "let's sit down (the magic sitting act) and talk with terrorists and maybe they'll like us" tripe. Nuts will find excuses to be nuts no matter what. "She had a red dress on," "he did not care about the poor," "an ancient dog told me to do it," ... the excuses are never ending. To try and build all public dialog around not triggering mental cases would do far more harm than good to society. If every time we spoke or put up a graphic a primary consideration was "what would a nutcase think of this?" we would be hamstrung (and mostly wrong).

Olberman and Taibbi, Limbaugh and Beck, they make money stirring enough emotion that people care enough to come back and listen/read/pay. They are not in the "fair" business. Not one of them is worth listening to for long, IMO. But they have a right to their form of communication and they remind us it's worth feeling passionate about what the other side is doing from time to time. Those passions swept in Obama and swept out much of Congress. I just hope there's a constant place in mainstream media for a cooly debated center to even out the edges.

i agree with much of what you say, 1C. perhaps our 'differences' aren't even differences but emphasis. i agree that unbalanced people are, in perhaps 90 or 95% of their actions, a world unto themselves. but there is, i believe, some role that society plays in the outcome of their actions. from both the left and the right, the demonization of those that disagree creates a climate where extreme action becomes more possible.

from what i've read so far, the shooter does seem like a ticking bomb. sadly, it seems someone was going to be his target. that's the 90-95% that was his own to own. i'll be curious to see if there is an explanation of why he chose his target. i hope that that wasn't pushed by something outside of his twisted psyche.

[Pete Serotta]

. . . at least I am trying to--that every story I have seen that lays any blame for this on "extreme political rhetoric" or something of the sort is quoting the SHERIFF and his comments in a press conference. It's his PERSONAL OPINION.

Unfortunately, though, the spin the media stories seem to be taking is that it's some sort of professional pronouncement. It's not. There's way, WAY too little information right now to be able to make any kind of valid conclusions--but that never seems to stop people from doing it.

BBD

Sorry I got emotional last night over the left - right - and then :confused:


There is way too little info being reported.....Hope it catches up with info by tomorrow.


Thanks again for keeping it 'civil' and sharing your with everyone. PETE

[Dekonick]

the kid was a nut case he probably didn't even know what the issues are
he may have just wanted attention imho
does every member of congress need a s. s. agent as a bodyguard i think so
cheers

Unfortunately,a SS agent wouldn't have prevented this. Crazy folks can do great harm no matter how prepared you think you are. You can't prevent everything. All one has to do is look back at JFK - plenty of SS and it still did no good.

A sad, sad day.

[Dekonick]

Please read this profile of the shooter. I think the discussion on political discourse should remain separate from this shooting incident until further information is available.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/us/politics/09shooter.html?_r=1&hp

:beer:


Yeah - the article states he was left wing and quite liberal. Whatever his political beliefs were, he was a person with true mental illness. Judging from this article, there were plenty of warning signs that he was a potential loose cannon. Hindsight sure seems 20/20... too bad we faill all too often to piece things together before it is too late.

[97CSI]

Yeah - the article states he was left wing and quite liberal. Whatever his political beliefs were, he was a person with true mental illness. Judging from this article, there were plenty of warning signs that he was a potential loose cannon. Hindsight sure seems 20/20... too bad we faill all too often to piece things together before it is too late.Actually, the article quotes one girl, who hasn't seen him since 2007, who said he seemed quite liberal back then. The article itself made no such assertion (good journalism - doesn't appear to make anything up). But, it does provide plenty of info to make one wonder how, like the VPI shooter of a few years ago, he legally had a pistol.

[avalonracing]

Yeah - the article states he was left wing and quite liberal. .

No.....
Reportedly a person who when to high school with him who has not seen him for over three years said that he was left wing and liberal:

" Caitie, at the time she knew him, he was left wing, quite liberal"

Now, as to whether a young girl who knew him knows what that even means is another question.

[avalonracing]

WASHINGTON -- Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.) defended Sarah Palin Sunday, saying that it is irresponsible for the media to be bringing up her much-discussed image of political targets from the 2010 election in the aftermath of the shooting.
------------------


Wow! Talking about turning the tables! So it was (once again) the MEDIA who was irresponsible. Wow, that took him so long to come up with that gem?
I wish that the big bad (liberal) media would stop making the world such a bad place.

[Rueda Tropical]

No.....

" Caitie, at the time she knew him, he was left wing, quite liberal"

Loughner had ties to an anti-immigration hate group called American Renaissance, according to a leaked memo from the Department of Homeland Security. They are a white supremacist group that wants to stop non-white immigration. That was reported on Fox and is being carried by all the news wires.

According to the memo, Federal Judge John Roll's wife told law enforcement that he was not supposed to be at the rally but was called an hour beforehand and decided to attend at the last minute. Roll reportedly ruled on a controversial 32 million dollar civil rights lawsuit in February 2010 that elicited death threats for him and his family resulting in added security detail being assigned to him as a result.http://www.businessinsider.com/alleged-az-shooter-may-have-links-to-pro-white-racist-organization-2011-1#ixzz1AZKOZ0ur

The ruling that a group of illegal immigrants could go forward with a multi-million dollar civil rights lawsuit against a state rancher brought a tidal wave of death threats against the judge.

[vqdriver]

i missed the original thread, but why's pete's name in the title?

[ergott]

i missed the original thread, but why's pete's name in the title?
:confused:
These threads always go down in flames. No sense in working out any more details than that. Oh well, only a few more months of winter that we have to deal with this.

History is doomed to be repeated and this thread will get locked like all the others. Rather than go after the ones who escalate things I'd rather see these threads eliminated all together. Good people get dragged into lame discussions that have no way of being resolved anyway. People who otherwise have interesting points of view in the cycling world are lost because they are banned after being baited into inflammatory debates.

http://www.sandsmachine.com/p_tic_r26.jpg

[avalonracing]

"YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!" ;)

I did enjoy your barrage of bike pics in yesterday's thread though. :beer:

[BumbleBeeDave]

Let's all move on . . . to BIKE STUFF. :beer:

BBD

[ergott]

"YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!" ;)

I did enjoy your barrage of bike pics in yesterday's thread though. :beer:

I've seen a few fallen comrades that contribute well to this forum until these threads come up. Then the evil political gremlins come out and get the best of them. People that were otherwise friendly with each other get nasty. It's just not in anyone's best interest to air politics here and it inevitably brings down the overall quality of the forum.

That's my answer and I'm sticking to it.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/tech/probikes/sierranevada_serotta/SerottabikeSNC204-009.jpg

[rugbysecondrow]

Why is it so hard to understand that this person was deranged? Only a deranged person would think the actions he took would actually have and impact towards his causes. His views seem to be incoherent at best and nonsensical at worse. Why do we even want to give him any credit for his ideas, that is what he would want.

He is a piece of ????. Why give ???? this much credence?

[97CSI]

No question he was crazy. But, does that excuse throwing gasoline on the fire? No way.

Now, I'm going to open a new thread so we can discuss religion. :)

[93legendti]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theticket/20110109/ts_yblog_theticket/meet-daniel-hernandez-the-intern-who-likely-saved-gabrielle-giffords-life

[dave thompson]

My new Cabo fixie, going to paint tomorrow. Should be ready when I get there in a couple of weeks. Note tall headtube, used so I can keep my membership in the CCMMHT.

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9858/cabobike1.jpg (http://img259.imageshack.us/i/cabobike1.jpg/)

[avalonracing]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theticket/20110109/ts_yblog_theticket/meet-daniel-hernandez-the-intern-who-likely-saved-gabrielle-giffords-life

She was lucky to have him there.
The gruesome image attached to the piece shows the brutal reality of what lack of gun control does. Look at the image. It's the reality and it's pretty sickening.

[Fixed]

i like the saddle
cheers

[ergott]

My new Cabo fixie, going to paint tomorrow. Should be ready when I get there in a couple of weeks. Note tall headtube, used so I can keep my membership in the CCMMHT.



OT

Man that is a horrid saddle to bar drop. Looks faster backwards to me.

Please attach an "OT" to your post to alert others.

:beer:

[dave thompson]

OT

Man that is a horrid saddle to bar drop. Looks faster backwards to me.

Please attach an "OT" to your post to alert others.

:beer:
Eric, I'm so sorry that I didn't alert you with an "OT" in the header to my post. I know how disconcerting it can be when thoughts are pulled 'off topic'. I'll remember next time. :cool:

[William]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4086/5125988883_7c9d020bfc.jpg

[oldmill]

I don't think anyone's arguing the guy was other than deranged, or if they are I missed it. The question is whether inflammatory rhetoric might push such deranged people to such acts. The sheriff seemed to think so. We'll have to wait and see. But the concern over the vitriol isn't that it may turn an otherwise rational, mild-mannered dude with 3 kids and a mortgage into a gun-toting loon. It's that it may push the gun-toting loon to these sorts of acts.

[sjbraun]

I'm not sure the vitirol spewed by some will actually send any deranged person over the edge toward violence. I think those who commit these acts will do so, finding one usable narrative or another to justify/cloak their activities.

To me, of more concern is the harm venomous speech causes by increasing polarization between the left and right. We need to be able to talk to one another. Inflammatory rhetoric stops dialog and then we're stuck with an endless game of tit for tat.

[93legendti]

She was lucky to have him there.
The gruesome image attached to the piece shows the brutal reality of what lack of gun control does. Look at the image. It's the reality and it's pretty sickening.
There was gun control. The FBI cleared him.

[97CSI]

I'm not sure the vitirol spewed by some will actually send any deranged person over the edge toward violence. I think those who commit these acts will do so, finding one usable narrative or another to justify/cloak their activities.

To me, of more concern is the harm venomous speech causes by increasing polarization between the left and right. We need to be able to talk to one another. Inflammatory rhetoric stops dialog and then we're stuck with an endless game of tit for tat.Don't think we will ever know. No 'smoking gun' on this, unless they find a download of Palin's PAC or something like that. But, with crazy people, who knows what triggers them and their thoughts.

And, do agree about the polarization. Look what it has done to congress (at all levels).

[93legendti]

Don't think we will ever know. No 'smoking gun' on this, unless they find a download of Palin's PAC or something like that. But, with crazy people, who knows what triggers them and their thoughts.

And, do agree about the polarization. Look what it has done to congress (at all levels).
Really?? That is the only possible "smoking gun"? You don't leave any room for the possibility that Loughner was upset that Giffords was pro-gun and pro-life; that she voted against Pelosi for minority leader; that she was one of the Reps who helped read the Constitution and that she wasn't liberal enough?

[97CSI]

Really?? That is the only possible "smoking gun"?No, that is why I stated "or something like that". Perhaps we will find out. It's early.

[Louis]

Really?? That is the only possible "smoking gun"? You don't leave any room for the possibility that Loughner was upset that Giffords was pro-gun and pro-life; that she voted against Pelosi for minority leader; that she was one of the Reps who helped read the Constitution and that she wasn't liberal enough?

Why stop there with your theory? You could add the possibility that he was an agent sent by Obama to tarnish the other side.

[avalonracing]

Why stop there with your theory? You could add the possibility that he was an agent sent by Obama to tarnish the other side.

That sounds like a "Fair and Balanced" theory. :D

[avalonracing]

And as for the crosshairs do you all see this?:

Rep. Gabrielle Giffords certainly thought Sarah Palin's map was relevant to the threat of violence. This is what she told MSNBC on March 25, 2010:

"...for example, we're on Sarah Palin's targeted list, but the thing is that the way that she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district, and when people do that, they've gotta realize there are consequences to that action."

---------------
Okay everyone, enjoy your dialog. I'm going out now to have a nice and reflective dinner with some good friends. I hope many of you do the same.

[97CSI]

And as for the crosshairs do you all see this?:

Rep. Gabrielle Giffords certainly thought Sarah Palin's map was relevant to the threat of violence. This is what she told MSNBC on March 25, 2010:

"...for example, we're on Sarah Palin's targeted list, but the thing is that the way that she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district, and when people do that, they've gotta realize there are consequences to that action."

---------------
Okay everyone, enjoy your dialog. I'm going out now to have a nice and reflective dinner with some good friends. I hope many of you do the same.Yep....... I can read the Fox/MSNBC headlines now..... "Representative Giffords responsible for her own shooting by pointing out that there are consequences to outlandish political rhetoric."

Enjoy your dinner.

[BumbleBeeDave]

We're done. Pete can unlock this one if he wishes, but to me it's just one more brick in the wall.

These types of threads have no place on this forum. 99% of the time they degenerate, make the forum look bad, and that's 99% too much for me.

Let's. Move. On. To. Cycling. Related. Topics.

BBD

[Pete Serotta]

A shooter has been charged and the News Ways will be full by tomorrow evening with information, opinions, and theories.

These threads unfortunately almost always degenerate into "personal" views and too often personal opinions of other's views.

That is part of the forum for much can be gained in living from looking at others views and expressions.

There are many very smart folks on here that I learn from. That is a good part of life and growing. To understand what others feel and sense about our world is a cornerstone to a better life.

It is part of living and hopefully will enable the general public, us included, to be more tolerant of others.

(No we do not have to agree with the extremes out there and thru the legal/political system can often address some of these extremes that are not good for us.

It still amazes me some of the extremes our country has been thru over the last century of so, (Yeah I almost listed some but erased them, for they are history)Sorry.


I agree with BB that this specific thread stay closed. It kept on heading down the hole after I asked for tolerance and banned someone. (Not too effective),


This not going to get erased at this time.


Forum is for building a group with common interest and the sharing of information, knowledge, and opinions in a courteous and non personal attacking way. :beer:

Thanks PETE

We're done. Pete can unlock this one if he wishes, but to me it's just one more brick in the wall.

These types of threads have no place on this forum. 99% of the time they degenerate, make the forum look bad, and that's 99% too much for me.

Let's. Move. On. To. Cycling. Related. Topics.

BBD