OT: This needs to stop

[avalonracing]

A Democratic Congresswomen has been shot to death in Arizona. Mail bombs were sent to the Governor of Maryland and the Homeland Security Chief this week. I don't care what your politics are... The anger and hate mongering in this country must stop. The discourse has become so mutated that it is hard to tell where the angry rhetoric ends and the lunatic fringe begins.

Go ahead and lock this. No dialog is needed anyway. Just go turn on the TV and try not feel sad for the state of our country.

[rugbysecondrow]

It is appalling that people would be violent like this, but when have we allowed lone individuals define us as a country or the state of the nation? I can't take the same leap you have.

[jeo99]

Guess I did not hear about the Congresswoman! I only heard of the Mexican being shot climbing the wall on the Arizona border.

:confused:

[ergott]

Guess I did not hear about the Congresswoman! I only heard of the Mexican being shot climbing the wall on the Arizona border.

:confused:

And on that note, I vote lock. This thread is set to die fast. Violence is bad no matter who practices it.

There is some nice and fresh snow on the ground here which makes for great viewing from my window and I'm building some wheels. That's my pleasant thought for the day.

:beer:

[norcalbiker]

It's in the mid 40's but I am going for a ride.

[phoenix]

Mid to high 30’s here, reluctantly gonna do it though.

[97CSI]

And on that note, I vote lock. This thread is set to die fast. Violence is bad no matter who practices it.

There is some nice and fresh snow on the ground here which makes for great viewing from my window and I'm building some wheels. That's my pleasant thought for the day.

:beer:Yep........ Nothing more refreshing then to stick one's head in the sand until it all goes away.

[Kevan]

On MSNBC Giffords herself spoke of her disappointment that Palin had chosen to place a crosshairs on several locations on her blog's map of the US, including Tucson, related to those who voted for the healthcare plan (I believe). Is there a connection?

This event is extremely sad and disappointing.

[FlashUNC]

FWIW, latest reports from the hospital indicate she's in surgery and still alive.

So she's not dead yet, despite the sheriff's initial statement.

[Frankwurst]

Violence is a tool of the ignorant. Lock the thread. :beer:

[Pete Serotta]

YEs times are trying but I am old enough to recall the JFK killing, the Martin Luther King, and also the Robert F Kennedy ones.


THere were more but we are a democracy and over time can alter things.


Killings because of purely disagreements are wrong no matter the date or time.


Yes political threads too often turn into personal verbal throwings :no: AT someone on the forum. Please think twice about these.


Maybe we can set a record on not closing a "political" emotional discussion :beer: :beer:

THANKS Pete

[sjbraun]

We were riding this morning, about two miles from the shooting. All of a sudden ambulances and sheriff's vehicles started screaming by.

When we got to within a half mile of the shooting traffic was at a standstill. A guy in a truck heading the other way suggested we turn back and told us about the shooting. We took the neighborhood roads coming out at Oracle, just as a helicopter took off. It was surreal.

I've met the Congresswoman several times, both socially and at work. Whatever your political opinions, Gabby is a very bright, genuinely warm person. She visits our patients at the VA hospital several times a year. She pretty much always skips the reception with hospital leadership, preferring to spend time with veterans. I've seen her patiently listen to a vet who might have a beef or disagree with her politically. She is a very classy person.

I worked at the trauma center where she's been taken for almost 10 years. Its also weird for me to think I know folks in the middle of this maelstrom, assuming she's made it to the ICU.

The hospital has a press conference going on now. Local news reports the shooter is a 22 year old male. They now report the number injured has risen to 18. One eye witness reports the shooter fired several rounds from just a foot away.

Whatever the news, political assassination really concerns me.

[93legendti]

It's an unthinkable tragedy. But, maybe we should wait for more info before we speculate as to the motive(s) of the shooter?

[54ny77]

I thought this thread was going to be about wearing underwear over one's tights.

But, no.

[sjbraun]

Press conference going on now. Gabby sustained one shot to the head, through and through. MD says she was responding after surgery and that he is very hopeful about her recovery.

Prayer time, folks

[mcteague]

And Sarah Palin has had this out for some time. Freakin' cross hairs over the location of people who voted for the health care bill. The Congresswoman, Giffords, who was shot is on the list. Palin has to be held accountable in some way for fomenting this type of thing. She says "it's time to take a stand" and puts cross hairs over where their "targets" are located. When, inevitably, someone goes too far, they will say it was unforeseen. Right!

Tim McTeague

[ergott]

Yep........ Nothing more refreshing then to stick one's head in the sand until it all goes away.

I'm sure it's more refreshing to air this on a bike forum, but I'm not about to. You can bait someone else because I'm not biting.

www.talkpoliticssomewhereelseforum.com

[rugbysecondrow]

And Sarah Palin has had this out for some time. Freakin' cross hairs over the location of people who voted for the health care bill. The Congresswoman, Giffords, who was shot is on the list. Palin has to be held accountable in some way for fomenting this type of thing. She says "it's time to take a stand" and puts cross hairs over where their "targets" are located. Then, inevitably, someone goes too far they will say it was unforeseen. Right!

Tim McTeague
Politically, there are targets every year. If you read the poster/map, the context is clearly political seats and elections. Let's not be silly by taking a political tool and foolishly positing it as a hit list.

[texbike]

I'm suprised that the shooter is 22 years old. Personally, I would have guessed a different age demographic...

It will be interesting to see what the motives are here.

Texbike

[ergott]

http://www.piedmontvelo.com/Portals/0/Serotta%20review%20photo.JPG

[ergott]

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/roadwork/Images/serotta.jpg

[onekgguy]

It is appalling that people would be violent like this, but when have we allowed lone individuals define us as a country or the state of the nation? I can't take the same leap you have.

I don't think he's talking about lone individuals defining us as a nation. But I would say that there are lone individuals on the airwaves infecting the minds of so many with their hate-filled rants. There's a mob-mentality at work out there of people who are buying into the hate from the main purveyors of this crap and it's not helping our country move beyond the divisive politics that offers little in the way of the solutions we desperately need.

Kevin g

[93legendti]

Sarah Palin is no more to blame for saying certain people were "targeted for relection" (this is common political talk by both sides), than Pres. Obama is for election night violence against Republicans on Nov. 2 for stating:


The president said: “If Latinos sit out the election instead of saying, ‘We’re gonna punish our enemies...
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1110/44476.html#ixzz1ATs7ibs6

[ergott]

http://gallery.mtbr.com/data/mtbr/1092/medium/serotta_t-max1.jpg

[ergott]

http://www.cyclefit.co.uk/images/Serotta/serotta_AE_carbon_med.jpg

[ergott]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wb8bAl1P-N0/SawV8jLkUaI/AAAAAAAAGTU/PKY6B_ZgaTw/s400/serotta.bmp

[ergott]

http://www.bikecult.com/works/archive/03bicycles/serottaTPRtu.jpg

[ergott]

http://forallmyfriends.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/bens_serotta.jpg

[onekgguy]

http://www.cyclefit.co.uk/images/Serotta/serotta_AE_carbon_med.jpg

You do have the option of ignoring this thread do you not?

Kevin g

[ergott]

I have the option of sharing nice Serottas on a SEROTTA forum

http://www.roadbikeaction.com/contentimages/2009/serotta_zap_roadbikeaction.jpg

[Aaron O]

It is appalling that people would be violent like this, but when have we allowed lone individuals define us as a country or the state of the nation? I can't take the same leap you have.

I don't necessarily see a connection between the angry, polarized rhetoric and the actions of a deranged killer, but I have to agree with the OP that the current level of discourse is upsetting and beneath us as a nation. I think the death of main stream media is really having a bad affect on the marketplace of ideas...people listen to whatever blogger they happen to agree with who reinforces whatever belief they already have. Maybe objectivity is impossible in journalism, but attempts at legitimacy, editors, fact checking, etc. led to better level of discourse. People don't want to search the market or think, they want to be spoon fed one liners that fit their preconceived notions of the world.

[rugbysecondrow]

I don't think he's talking about lone individuals defining us as a nation. But I would say that there are lone individuals on the airwaves infecting the minds of so many with their hate-filled rants. There's a mob-mentality at work out there of people who are buying into the hate from the main purveyors of this crap and it's not helping our country move beyond the divisive politics that offers little in the way of the solutions we desperately need.

Kevin g
No offense, but what you wrote makes very little sense and it is backed up by nothing based in reality.

See this for what it is, an awful attack, something uncalled for that has left many people hurt and killed.

[ergott]

OT

This bike is real nice and in a beautiful setting as well.

http://www.betterbillsweb.com/images/serotta_popup.jpg

[1centaur]

While I admire Pete's experiment in political latitude, the reasons to lock this thread are:

1) Everybody here is against violence (except that squirrel fella)

2) Almost everybody here thinks nuts are nuts (hmm, the squirrel theme continues) and not a reflection on their political affiliation.

3) The remainder won't persuade anybody otherwise but it's hard to let the assertion dangle unchallenged...both sides just get mad either way.

So even without expecting persuasion, we have no hope of elucidation amongst the smoke on a topic like this. This one's different from health care or energy policy or so many other political topics that have real sides with facts and analysis behind them.

Frankly, even if this nut admitted using righty rhetoric as his excuse, I think most right-of-center people would be MORE mad at that than left-of-center folks because it creates a distraction from issues they care about that have nothing to do with "hatred."

[97CSI]

Politically, there are targets every year. If you read the poster/map, the context is clearly political seats and elections. Let's not be silly by taking a political tool and foolishly positing it as a hit list.Well said and totally wrong. Am sure Rush and O'Reilly will use similar arguments with their unthinking minions. It is, pure and simple, a "hit list".

[avalonracing]

And Sarah Palin has had this out for some time. Freakin' cross hairs over the location of people who voted for the health care bill. She says "it's time to take a stand" and puts cross hairs over where their "targets" are located.

There are many ways to mark a map. When I am mapping a destination I don't ever find myself using a gunsight image to denote a location.

These icons are obviously representing scope gunsight. As a responsible gun owner I've been trained not to point my gun that anything that I don't want to shot/kill. You would think that proponents of second amendment rights would know the same thing. So the question is, when designing this were they ignorant, negligent or inciting violence?

[ergott]

OT

I guess this guy races

http://www.roadcyclinguk.com/news/images/serotta_launch_4_hi.jpg

[54ny77]

I'm surprised there isn't more cyclist-on-cyclist violence when one wears underwear over their tights.

[rugbysecondrow]

Well said and totally wrong. It is, pure and simple, a "hit list".

If this is your assertion, then also ask what the right would gain from this? I know the answer and I am sure you do too if you would think through it. Sometimes the correct answer is the simplest. Read the poster, it is about elections.

Politically, this is very very bad for politically right people.

Rarely have I seen people react so poorly and without thought with almost NO information. It is the definition of ignorance.

[onekgguy]

No offense, but what you wrote makes very little sense and it is backed up by nothing based in reality.

See this for what it is, an awful attack, something uncalled for that has left many people hurt and killed.

Do you need a multi-million dollar study to tell you that a steady diet of hate-radio will tend to skew the way a person thinks? It's not that complicated.

I honestly believe that hate-radio isn't helping us as a country. I don't need any more facts than that to post my opinion here.

Kevin g

[ergott]

OT

Check this out!

http://www.brittonbikes.com/bikes/serotta/images/mevici-ae-headtube.jpg

[ergott]

OT

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/tech/fsa/pimpfsasmall.jpg

[soulspinner]

He killed a small child. If its a by product of how heated all this political rhetoric then maybe its time for me personally to re think my death penalty stand. FWIW crosshairs have no place in political wrangling. Would Palin feel differently if it were her kid killed in a senseless act like this? Ya Ya stupid question.......

[soulspinner]

Do you need a multi-million dollar study to tell you that a steady diet of hate-radio will tend to skew the way a person thinks? It's not that complicated.

I honestly believe that hate-radio isn't helping us as a country. I don't need any more facts than that to post my opinion here.

Kevin g


You sir are correct in my not so humble opinion.

[ergott]

OT

Talk about nice settings for a bike...

http://www.bikejournal.com/images/sagebumSerotta%20Ti%20Hardtail.JPG

[rugbysecondrow]

Do you need a multi-million dollar study to tell you that a steady diet of hate-radio will tend to skew the way a person thinks? It's not that complicated.

I honestly believe that hate-radio isn't helping us as a country. I don't need any more facts than that to post my opinion here.

Kevin g


Nope, even the most uninformed person can have an opinion, they even let those people vote here in America. That is why acts likes these are ao rare and not part of our system. People disagree, but murders like these are very very rare. This is a crazy person issue, not a political issue. Think for a second, Reagan, RFK, MLK...politically motivated? Nope, crazy people. Why are you guys so willing to look past what is likely the obvious?

[93legendti]

http://www.postonpolitics.com/2010/04/democrats-our-bullseye-targets-on-house-districts-are-not-like-palins-crosshair-targets/
Dems' map with bullseyes:

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab27/adambaker29/demstargetrepublicans.jpg
“Those are Democratic seats, and we should target every one of those,” Frost said. “Now there’s no dispute that we should go after those Republicans.”

http://www.rollcall.com/news/-201962-1.html

[csm]

the skiing was pretty good this morning.

[ergott]

OT

Anyone here planning on getting one of these?

http://www.serotta.com/assets/images/items/serotta_cap_red%20web.jpg

I put OT in my message so it's ok.

[Blue Jays]

OT

Check this out!

http://www.brittonbikes.com/bikes/serotta/images/mevici-ae-headtube.jpgVery sweet photograph.

[onekgguy]

Nope, even the most uninformed person can have an opinion, they even let those people vote here in America. That is why acts likes these are ao rare and not part of our system. People disagree, but murders like these are very very rare. This is a crazy person issue, not a political issue. Think for a second, Reagan, RFK, MLK...politically motivated? Nope, crazy people. Why are you guys so willing to look past what is likely the obvious?

Um...who's talking about murder?

Kevin g

[csm]

He killed a small child. If its a by product of how heated all this political rhetoric then maybe its time for me personally to re think my death penalty stand. FWIW crosshairs have no place in political wrangling. Would Palin feel differently if it were her kid killed in a senseless act like this? Ya Ya stupid question.......

HE killed a small child. HE shot the crowd.
not sure why Palin needs to be part of the discussion.
from what I saw on her tv show, she's not a very good shot anyway.

[Fixed]

don't worry these cats are on guard
imho cheers http://ridesabike.tumblr.com/photo/1280/2429770553/1/tumblr_ldsqcflHWu1qf6o97

[rugbysecondrow]

http://www.postonpolitics.com/2010/04/democrats-our-bullseye-targets-on-house-districts-are-not-like-palins-crosshair-targets/
http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab27/adambaker29/demstargetrepublicans.jpg
You mean both parties use symbolism to communicate a point? What a crazy notion. Maybe I should jump to conclusions about what the bullseyes mean?

[ergott]

Very sweet photograph.

OT

Then you will really like this one.

http://sportsgarage.net/wp-content/uploads/main_meivici_k_2.jpg

[97CSI]

not sure why Palin needs to be part of the discussion.Perhaps it is because it is her website that had the crosshairs and Giffords' name on her 'hit list'.

[ergott]

Maybe I should jump to conclusions


Sorry, but I couldn't resist.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:TqJQwtVENi38CM:http://promote-my-site.com/images/jump_to_conclusions.jpg&t=1

[avalonracing]

Of course Rush and Glenn will decry this act as that of crazed individual (and I won't argue that) but then they will get back to spewing the inspiring hateful rhetoric that has made them hundreds of millions of dollars. The sad part is that their fans don't get rich from it. In fact it only works against the 99% of them who aren't super-wealthy.

I would say that we just need to ignore it and continue to educate ourselves and our children but there seems to be a large contingent of people who reject fact, science and truth and say "Well those are YOUR facts and science. I'll have mine which that are based on what this very, very, rich guy on the radio is getting paid to say".

[rugbysecondrow]

Um...who's talking about murder?

Kevin g
Que? What do you mean, "who's talking about murder?"

[Aaron O]

There is no question in my mind that the rhetoric has become increasingly dangerous, polarized and violent. If you think Limbaugh and his shock competitors are unique, look up Father Coughlin. Populist reactionaries are nothing new...our democracy survived Coughlin and it will survive Limbaugh.

There's also no question in my mind that this has nothing to do with a killing spree by a whack job.

[csm]

Perhaps it is because it is her website that had the crosshairs and Giffords' name on her 'hit list'.

and somehow she's responsible? ridiculus!
and I am no fan of Mrs Palin but the blame needs to lie with the guy whose trigger finger did the shooting.

[onekgguy]

Que? What do you mean, "who's talking about murder?"

I'm confused because all I'm talking about is my opinion/belief that hate-radio is creating a huge divide between us as a nation and that it's not helping. I'm inferring nothing about the motives for what happened with the shooting today.

Kevin g

[93legendti]

You mean both parties use symbolism to communicate a point? What a crazy notion...
That would appear to be the objective interpretation.

It would be interesting if he was a progressive who was upset that this Rep. was not liberal enough...

[ergott]

I think it's hilarious that the blame game has flourished when the investigation into the shooting has just begun. That must be the media's fault too.
:beer:



Oh, yeah.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/165/413207080_0b01003819.jpg

[rugbysecondrow]

I think we can agree the political rhetoric sucks. But to stretch that to this murderous spree seems inaccurate. Not the same discussion really.

[onekgguy]

I think it's hilarious that the blame game has flourished when the investigation into the shooting has just begun. That must be the media's fault too.
:beer:



Oh, yeah.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/165/413207080_0b01003819.jpg


:beer:

[avalonracing]

Good news. It looks like Gabrielle Giffords has survived despite the early reports. The doctors are "Optimistic". We can only hope that she recovers from being shot in the head. Sadly, there other fatalities.

They have even released the name of the alleged shooter including links to his youtube page (which is still up... ain't technology grand).

Currently they are saying an automatic weapon was used for this cowardly act.

[93legendti]

Good news. It looks like Gabrielle Giffords has survived despite the early reports. The doctors are "Optimistic". We can only hope that she recovers from being shot in the head. Sadly, there other fatalities.

They have even released the name of the alleged shooter including links to his youtube page (which is still up... ain't technology grand).

Currently they are saying an automatic weapon was used for this cowardly act.
GREAT news. Thanks for the update.

[97CSI]

and somehow she's responsible? ridiculus!
and I am no fan of Mrs Palin but the blame needs to lie with the guy whose trigger finger did the shooting.Indeed........... Kristallnacht had nothing to do with Hitler......... only the finger-pointers would think so. It was simply those nasty brownshirts being silly and ridiculous.

[rugbysecondrow]

Indeed........... Kristallnacht had nothing to do with Hitler......... only the finger-pointers would think so. It was simply those nasty brownshirts being silly and ridiculous.
The lazy hitler reference, it only took five pages.

[Aaron O]

I'm also far from a Palin fan, but the minute you have to make a Hitler analogy, you've lost the argument. As a Jew, I take issue with comparing every political movement someone disagrees with to the Nazis. Some are also comparing Obama to Hitler, and that grossly offends me. No tea party folks have been knocking at my door asking if I'm a communist. No tea party folks have killed my relatives. Sarah Palin isn't calling for gays to be killed or deported. I might not agree with her...and I don't. I might think the tea party is ridiculous, and I do, but Nazis? Dude...with all due respect, if you had no extended family left because of Nazism, you wouldn't make this comparison.

The tea party is rallying, which is their right. They supported positions and reps...which is their right. I don't agree with them, which is my right. None of them are trying to kill me right now and comparing them to ruthless murderers is absurd.

[Aaron O]

The lazy hitler reference, it only took five pages.

+1...I am so tired of every person someone disagrees with being compared to Hitler. Until the body counts start hitting thousands, and until people are being rounded up...can we just stop with that?

[93legendti]

Indeed........... Kristallnacht had nothing to do with Hitler......... only the finger-pointers would think so. It was simply those nasty brownshirts being silly and ridiculous.
You might be getting carried away...Kristallnacht was an organized campaign by the Gov't thru out Germany against only Jews. 2500 Jews were killed in the pogrom.

"At 1:20am on November 10, 1938, Reinhard Heydrich sent an urgent secret telegram to the state police and the Sturmabteilung (SA) containing instructions regarding the riots. This included guidelines for the protection of foreigners and non-Jewish businesses and property. Police were instructed not to interfere with the riots unless the guidelines were violated. Police were also instructed to seize Jewish archives from synagogues and community offices, and to arrest and detain "healthy male Jews, who are not too old," for eventual transfer to concentration camps.[23]"

If you are analogizing to Kristallnacht, than you are claiming the administration is behind the shooting and there will be 2499 more.

The Hitler reference is heated political rhetoric of the kind attacked by the left, no?

[97CSI]

Bad analogy, perhaps, but what I'm saying is that when people who have access to national media put crosshairs on particular opponents, by name, who are then shot, they bear some responsibility for what has taken place.

[Aaron O]

Horse crap. Cross hairs in that context meant election activity. I don't like the majority of Palin's positions, but blaming her for the actions of a lunatic is unfair and gross. You are using this truly sad day to attack your political enemies, and the way you're doing it is inappropriate. You can vote against them and volunteer for the opponents...I do...but dehumanizing them just debases your discourse.

[SoCalSteve]

Ok, it's over now.

I love that Pete thought that this could stay civilized...but it didnt, so we are going to close this thread and hopefully we can stay away from politics.

How about we talk about espresso machines for awhile.

[Pete Serotta]

I thought this thread was going to be about wearing underwear over one's tights.

But, no. :crap: :crap: :crap: :confused: