Ebay and I...Shipping to Canada part II

[kohlboto]

I’m hoping for some perspective from the forum on this fairly ridiculous situation as I am a bit disheveled at this point in time. So,long story, short version:
I purchase a set of deda zero 100 bars from a gentleman in Michigan for 45.00 (a great deal). He says shipping to Canada is 25.00 (not so great but acceptable considering the price on the bars). The bars arrive today and the postage on the box is 7.95…the guy has pocketed 17.00 above and beyond the shipping cost. I'm pretty easy going about shipping cost...if there is a +/- $5 difference, I'm okay with it because of time and material cost (envelopes, boxes, tape, etc.).
I emailed him about the discrepancy and his response was “you agreed to 25.00 for shipping…” Shipping, yes. 8 bucks and 17 in your paypal account, no. When pressed further his retort was “…i bill my customers $250/hr for consulting work, customs forms take
10min of my time you do the math…”
So my questions revolve around this issue. If I pay 25.00 for shipping, should I expect that the full amount gets used for shipping costs? Surely, for $25.00, there were more expensive and quicker methods available to the seller. He chose the cheapest and kept the surplus. Is this the new profit margin for ebay sellers? Am i spoiled by this forum's awesomeness? Am I being a dick about this?
And, there is the matter of feedback…do I give him negative feedback? Neutral?
And, as a sidebar question…the bars were covered in residue and tape foam – do you guys clean your used bars before you sell them?
any insight and/or perspective is always welcome.
cheers
Jay

[rugbysecondrow]

If you agreed to it, then I am not certain it is right to ding him with bad feedback. You can give him a lower star rating for shipping value, but I wouldn't give bad feedback in this instance.

Regarding bars, if the photo showed them in that condition, then I wouldn't think it was a big deal. I have sold bars, but never "cleaned" them. I would take off excess tape etc, but residue, markings etc, that is the cost of used bars. Plus, they get covered up, so I never saw the point. If I sold a bar with tape, it would have been evident in the photo.

Yes, you (we) are spoiled with the forum.

[AngryScientist]

shipping costs, as far as ebay goes, are a game, in my experience.

i can buy the exact same part from an online vendor for 100, for example, with $20 shipping, or from that vendor's ebay store for 120, free shipping.

i always take into account price+ shipping cost as my total cost, how the seller decides to split it up, i dont care, the total cost is what i've already decided on.

that's true for ebay though, its cold and impersonal. if someone did that to me on the forum, i'd be a little more hurt, because it's more of a friendly transaction. ebay is nothing more than an business tool for most people, and, as such, the bottom line is all that matters.

just my 2-cents on the matter though.

[kohlboto]

I agree on the feedback but that's where I am torn, there is nothing wrong with the product...just the seller...
I always clean my bars before I sell, I feel better about the sale that way...I don't know why

[kohlboto]

that's true for ebay though, its cold and impersonal. if someone did that to me on the forum, i'd be a little more hurt, because it's more of a friendly transaction. ebay is nothing more than an business tool for most people, and, as such, the bottom line is all that matters.

just my 2-cents on the matter though.

I have been spoiled by this place...my expectations are too high for the outside world...

[thegunner]

i'd do what rugby said, positive feedback, maybe 1 or 2 stars on the shipping portion (or whatever is more applicable. maybe communication)

[kohlboto]

i'd do what rugby said, positive feedback, maybe 1 or 2 stars on the shipping portion (or whatever is more applicable. maybe communication)
That is probably the sensible choice but it makes me feel like I'm complicit in some wrong-doing...

[FixedNotBroken]

If you agreed to it, then I am not certain it is right to ding him with bad feedback. You can give him a lower star rating for shipping value, but I wouldn't give bad feedback in this instance.

Regarding bars, if the photo showed them in that condition, then I wouldn't think it was a big deal. I have sold bars, but never "cleaned" them. I would take off excess tape etc, but residue, markings etc, that is the cost of used bars. Plus, they get covered up, so I never saw the point. If I sold a bar with tape, it would have been evident in the photo.

Yes, you (we) are spoiled with the forum.


To be honest, all you can do is keep your integrity and keep being the person that you are, leaving bad feedback won't change him as a person which stinks but all you can do is enjoy your bars and keep your head held high.

[Don49]

eBay sellers pay fees based on sales price excluding shipping. So it's fairly common for an item to be priced under market value with the shipping jacked up to compensate. Certain sellers only seem to work this way.

If you agreed to the shipping price then I wouldn't ding him because the actual cost was less, except in the case where he said he would ship Priority and then used Parcel Post or similar.

[bike22]

if you knew the shipping costs in advance, i don't see the problem.
if you did not ask the shipping costs in advance, live and learn i guess.

food for thought: when nashbar or any other online retailer charges you $8 or what ever they charge for shipping, do you think that reflects the actual cost?

(no, large companies get significant volume discounts; it's not unusual for a large company to pay literally a fraction of what someone with out such volume pays)

[kohlboto]

If you agreed to the shipping price then I wouldn't ding him because the actual cost was less, except in the case where he said he would ship Priority and then used Parcel Post or similar.

I agreed to a 25.00 shipping price but under the assumption that the full $25.00 (or at least a hefty portion of it) would actually go to "shipping"...isn't that what the shipping price is for?

[FixedNotBroken]

I agreed to a 25.00 shipping price but under the assumption that the full $25.00 (or at least a hefty portion of it) would actually go to "shipping"...isn't that what the shipping price is for?

Even for cheaper items on eBay, sellers jack up shipping costs to make some money on that as well.

[bike22]

I agreed to a 25.00 shipping price but under the assumption that the full $25.00 (or at least a hefty portion of it) would actually go to "shipping"...isn't that what the shipping price is for?
shipping and handling.

[Wilkinson4]

Two perspectives from me.

As a Seller it is Shipping and Handling that is charged. Sometimes it is difficult to really get what the final cost will be to ship international unless you have a scale. That said, I would tell the buyer that if the shipping is significantly less, I will refund the overage.

As a Buyer if you bid, you are bidding on the item price and the shipping costs. You can ask before you bid if they will work with you and that usually works.

However, sometimes the S&H is used as a built in profit margin by some sellers. I have eaten shipping costs plenty of times when I under estimated the costs so I do fudge up.

But, if it cost be $7.95 to ship and I charged $25.00 I would kick back a good portion...

mIKE

[Z3c]

First, you agreed to and paid the price the seller provided. At that point you deemed it reasonable and as you stated, the overall deal was still good in your opinion. It would seem to me that it would be really unfair to leave feedback that is negative or even neutral. The seller did everything they said they would and it was all agreed to by you.

I often sell items via Ebay that are shipped International; I typically make money on the shipping but there is much more hassle involved in international shipments; customs forms and mostly that you have to go stand in line during limited open hours as opposed to going to the automated machine at whatever time is convenient for me.

My thoughts..

[JD Smith]

I’m hoping for some perspective from the forum on this fairly ridiculous situation as I am a bit disheveled at this point in time. So,long story, short version:
I purchase a set of deda zero 100 bars from a gentleman in Michigan for 45.00 (a great deal). He says shipping to Canada is 25.00 (not so great but acceptable considering the price on the bars). The bars arrive today and the postage on the box is 7.95…the guy has pocketed 17.00 above and beyond the shipping cost. I'm pretty easy going about shipping cost...if there is a +/- $5 difference, I'm okay with it because of time and material cost (envelopes, boxes, tape, etc.).
I emailed him about the discrepancy and his response was “you agreed to 25.00 for shipping…” Shipping, yes. 8 bucks and 17 in your paypal account, no. When pressed further his retort was “…i bill my customers $250/hr for consulting work, customs forms take
10min of my time you do the math…”
So my questions revolve around this issue. If I pay 25.00 for shipping, should I expect that the full amount gets used for shipping costs? Surely, for $25.00, there were more expensive and quicker methods available to the seller. He chose the cheapest and kept the surplus. Is this the new profit margin for ebay sellers? Am i spoiled by this forum's awesomeness? Am I being a dick about this?
And, there is the matter of feedback…do I give him negative feedback? Neutral?
And, as a sidebar question…the bars were covered in residue and tape foam – do you guys clean your used bars before you sell them?
any insight and/or perspective is always welcome.
cheers
Jay

I figure if the seller knows damn well he's over charging, and highly over charging at that, he's opening himself up for negative feedback. Feedback is my opportunity to give my overall impression of the seller and the transaction. Charging triple the actual amount for shipping is cause for a negative experience.
Sure, you knew what he would charge going in. But he knew charging triple for shipping opens himself up for negative feedback.
Ebay likes to think of itself as a "community". Well, communities police themselves to maintain the standards the members wish to uphold.
Giving him negative feedback is an opportunity to remind him he's being a douchebag. Sometimes these douchebags have been at it for so long, they forget there are indeed consequences for being a douchebag.

[Ken Robb]

if it had been "Buy it Now" for $70 w/"free" shipping would you have bought the bars?
Speaking for myself I wouldn't make a trip to the post office and stand in the usual 15-20 minute line for a $17 "profit" or fee. I'd do it for nothing for a friend but maybe not for an eBay stranger. As others have said I would consider the overall cost including shipping when evaluating value. I don't care how the seller chooses to categorize the price.
The seller may not have known what the cost would be to ship to Canada and so he picked a number he thought was enough to cover whatever cost he'd be faced with. I gather you yourself thought $25 seemed reasonable until you saw the stamp on the package.
It sounds like a good deal to me so smile-be happy. :beer: :banana:

[kohlboto]

I often sell items via Ebay that are shipped International; I typically make money on the shipping but there is much more hassle involved in international shipments; customs forms and mostly that you have to go stand in line during limited open hours as opposed to going to the automated machine at whatever time is convenient for me.

My thoughts..

I appreciate that aspect of the deal (although, there was a 6 day lag between payment and shipping dates...the auction stated ships within three days...) but I still have an issue with shipping as an opportunity for profit, I don't get that part of it.

[kohlboto]

I gather you yourself thought $25 seemed reasonable until you saw the stamp on the package.
It sounds like a good deal to me so smile-be happy. :beer: :banana:

Definitely, because I had faith that the $25 was going to be used as per the shipping agreement...I dig the bars, it's just that practice that leaves me shaking my head...

[BengeBoy]

"Shipping charges" is a highly ambiguous term.

To some people, "shipping charges" should reflect the price of postage only.

To other people, "shipping charges" = shipping, "handling," time to fill out paperwork, packing materials, time to pack the item, and maybe a profit margin as well.

If he told you that "shipping charges" would be $25, and that's what you paid, you got the deal you agreed to.

I'm having a hard time seeing that the seller did anything wrong here. I haven't read each of your posts carefully but it doesn't appear to me that he misled you in any way.

[tuxbailey]

I appreciate that aspect of the deal (although, there was a 6 day lag between payment and shipping dates...the auction stated ships within three days...) but I still have an issue with shipping as an opportunity for profit, I don't get that part of it.

Sir, you take the price too literally, what I usually factor in is the total price of the item + shipping. If I am happy with that figure then I bid, regardless of what the final shipping charge is.

Sometimes seller including part of the price in shipping as ebay doesn't factor the cost of shipping in calculating the fees. That is why you see Hong Kong sellers selling a water bottle cage for $1 and charge you $10 for shipping. Or you can buy from a local seller for $8 and $3 shipping.

As someone said above, it is shipping and handling. Not all sellers runs a selling business with mail courier or have UPS come to the door to pick up their items. In addition, did you factor in the time that the seller used to find the right size box, put some padded materials in, or nicely wrapped the bar (if he did it,) and tape up the box securely? Surely you didn't expect free labor on the seller part?

When I sell something here/eBay I have to factor in the time I need to take off from work to go to the PO, UPS/FedEx, etc. I don't make a living selling (I do more buying than selling.)

Sometimes my shipping charge actually turns out more expensive than I initially quoted but I won't go back to the buyer to ask for more money due to my mistake since that is what I agreed to in the transaction.

I think for you to give a negative feedback based on an agreed upon charge is not appropriate. Maybe he wanted to send certified priority mail but found out that was too much so he ended up sending you regular parcel post? Pure speculation on this part.

I am sure the seller came out ahead monetarily, but definitely not as much as you think.

[d_douglas]

I agree to most of what has been said.

I think Jay is suggesting that if he paid $25 and the seller got to the post office and realized the difference in cost, he might think to expedite the process in order to 'justify' the overpayment if he didn't want to refund the money. Perhaps spend $15 or $20 on shipping and get it there in half the time?

I have been on both ends of this situation - I bought something from the forum and the seller agreed to a price, then he ended up paying more for shipping than he had expected. On this forum, I treat people as 'friends' - if Jay (who is a personal friend of mine) would have unexpectedly had to pay an extra $10 for shipping, I would pay him back, and this is what I did with this particular seller (whose name I cannot recall now).

On the other side, I live in Switzerland and I have been nailed at the post office here a few times when shipping to the US. I would not ask someone to pay the overpayment, but it would be a nice gesture if they offered to do so once they got the package that indicated a $30 charge when they only paid me $15. Yes, it is my responsibility to correctly evaluate shipping costs, but as 'friends', I hope that people might offer to at least split the costs. Lesson has been learned and now I estimate the shipping cost more accurately. I do not personally charge for 'handling' in any way - packaging this stuff is part of the opportunity cost of buying and selling over the web, at my scale of transactions.

I am not bitter towards those that don't do this - this is just an observation. I agree with Jay as well, that within +/- $5, I call that even and just the cost of doing business.

For the record, I haven't bought anything from Ebay in at least a year. I am getting jaded by my pleasant dealings with Forum folks both here and on Vsalon :)

[kohlboto]

Sometimes my shipping charge actually turns out more expensive than I initially quoted but I won't go back to the buyer to ask for more money due to my mistake since that is what I agreed to in the transaction.

I think for you to give a negative feedback based on an agreed upon charge is not appropriate. Maybe he wanted to send certified priority mail but found out that was too much so he ended up sending you regular parcel post? Pure speculation on this part.

I am sure the seller came out ahead monetarily, but definitely not as much as you think.

I will not be going the negative feedback route as I agree with you and others that it isn't appropriate in this case.

[oldguy00]

I will not be going the negative feedback route as I agree with you and others that it isn't appropriate in this case.

Personally, I'd probably leave neutral feedback, but thats just me. I know when I buy from ebay, I agree to a shipping price. But like you, I don't exactly appreciate it when they charge me 3-4 times the actual shipping cost.
By leaving neutral feedback with a comment, you at least let other potential customers of his know to ask about shipping costs. If the seller doesn't like your feedback, then maybe he'll reconsider his practices.
Oh, I've worked several years as a consultant in both Canada and US, and I call massive bull???? on his billing rate story. Anyone who does in fact make $$ like that doesn't waste their time/energy selling handlebars on ebay......

[rugbysecondrow]

The obvious way to be get around the whole Canada/ USA buying issue is to just move to the States. That, in addition to living in the greatest country should be reason enough. :) ;)

[kohlboto]

Thank you for all the input. I think I have a clearer perspective on the process. I think the term "shipping cost" is pretty ambiguous, as stated above. I guess I am, philosophically, like Darren when he says I do not personally charge for 'handling' in any way - packaging this stuff is part of the opportunity cost of buying and selling over the web, at my scale of transactions. I suppose, in the end, I am guilty of wanting this guy to be something that he is not. I just don't get that motivation.
And to put everything into perspective, at the other end of the scale, I purchased a pair of Salsa Cross levers from Cookietom here on the forum. We agreed on $25.00 shipped. Yesterday (before the bars arrived), I get a Paypal refund notice for $2.20 and a note from Tom saying shipping was only $2.80...
I am definitely spoiled by this forum...

[oldpotatoe]

I’m hoping for some perspective from the forum on this fairly ridiculous situation as I am a bit disheveled at this point in time. So,long story, short version:
I purchase a set of deda zero 100 bars from a gentleman in Michigan for 45.00 (a great deal). He says shipping to Canada is 25.00 (not so great but acceptable considering the price on the bars). The bars arrive today and the postage on the box is 7.95…the guy has pocketed 17.00 above and beyond the shipping cost. I'm pretty easy going about shipping cost...if there is a +/- $5 difference, I'm okay with it because of time and material cost (envelopes, boxes, tape, etc.).
I emailed him about the discrepancy and his response was “you agreed to 25.00 for shipping…” Shipping, yes. 8 bucks and 17 in your paypal account, no. When pressed further his retort was “…i bill my customers $250/hr for consulting work, customs forms take
10min of my time you do the math…”
So my questions revolve around this issue. If I pay 25.00 for shipping, should I expect that the full amount gets used for shipping costs? Surely, for $25.00, there were more expensive and quicker methods available to the seller. He chose the cheapest and kept the surplus. Is this the new profit margin for ebay sellers? Am i spoiled by this forum's awesomeness? Am I being a dick about this?
And, there is the matter of feedback…do I give him negative feedback? Neutral?
And, as a sidebar question…the bars were covered in residue and tape foam – do you guys clean your used bars before you sell them?
any insight and/or perspective is always welcome.
cheers
Jay

The total you agreed to was $70.

You mentioned, "I purchase a set of deda zero 100 bars from a gentleman in Michigan for 45.00 (a great deal). He says shipping to Canada is 25.00 (not so great but acceptable considering the price on the bars)."

You got the bars, paid no amount you didn't know about....put them on your bike and go ride.

Negative feedback for what? He asked for $70, you paid $70..'maybe' a comment about the goop on the bars..IMHO.

[kohlboto]

The obvious way to be get around the whole Canada/ USA buying issue is to just move to the States. That, in addition to living in the greatest country should be reason enough. :) ;)

I lived in Arizona for 11 years (during the Pre-ebay era) and loved my time down there. I'm not sure my wife would be on board with that idea, though...

[kohlboto]

Personally, I'd probably leave neutral feedback, but thats just me. I know when I buy from ebay, I agree to a shipping price. But like you, I don't exactly appreciate it when they charge me 3-4 times the actual shipping cost.


does neutral feedback affect the overall % of a seller's rating? he has 100% feedback, and, truthfully, I don't want to wreck that (does that make Ebay's feedback rating more valuable than one's credit rating?)...

[oldguy00]

does neutral feedback affect the overall % of a seller's rating? he has 100% feedback, and, truthfully, I don't want to wreck that (does that make Ebay's feedback rating more valuable than one's credit rating?)...

I believe it does affect it. I have over 600 transactions on ebay, and I leave feedback for each of them. In all of those, I've probably only ever left 3 or 4 non-positive feedback's. But I've rarely been charged 4 times actual shipping, and then have the seller tell me to consider his consulting bill rate...

[tuxbailey]

As a "occasional" ebay seller with less than 100 feedback (but at 100%) I hope that you don't leave neutral feedback for this seller. Perhaps you can send him a note to let him know how you personally feel about this transaction so he may be more accurate next time. But you got the item at the price mutually agreed upon so it was a complete transaction.

The reason I say this, is that for hobbyists like us (not a store or power seller,) feedback is the only way to help sell some items on eBay. I don't even own a postal scale at home so it is a guessing game at the shipping cost.

For example, I sold a set of wheels over the summer by posting in the local CL. Someone from Michigan was interested in it so I quoted him $25 shipping using USPS Parcel Post with insurance. A second buyer wanted them locally and it would have been much easier but I wanted to honor the first buyer. I had to source wheel box and I got the individual ones from Performance. Now I had to tape them together securely. Then I took them to the PO near my workplace during lunch time and the line was 40 mins long. I couldn't use the automatic machine due to the size. Time was short so I left and chose a different PO with no line, but then I was told I needed to re-tape the box because I used duct tape and they don't like it.

I then took the box to UPS and they taped over my tape using brown tape and I was happy to pay $30 for shipping UPS. The buyer was happy and I never felt bad for paying more. The extra effort was okay since it was my own mistakes in planning. But it is just to illustrate that for small sellers like us, this type of transactions eventually balance out to a zero sum game and we aren't really out to make a killer profit for shipping and handling.

On the flip side, when you buy something online, say a laptop or PC from Dell, do you think they really pay the shipping fee they quote you? Because of economy of scale with the shipping company and better supply chain logistics management, it is highly likely that they pay less that what they quote you. Would you have an issue with that situation?

[drewski]

Someone on this forum had a really good take on the risks we accept
when you ride a bicycle today. I think this applies to this situation as well.

Risk acceptance and Risk Mitigation

You contacted the seller and he/she quoted the price and you accepted
the price. Not everyone on ebay shares the world view of the Serotta forum.
I guess we take for granted how people on this forum treat one another.
I think that person is a schmedrick.


Slang Dictionary

schmendrick definition
[ˈʃmɛndrɪk]
and shmendrick

n.
a stupid and ineffectual nobody. (Yiddish.) : Some schmendrick from downstairs asked if you could turn down your stereo.



Pain reaches the heart with electrical speed, but truth moves to the heart as slowly as a glacier. ~Barbara Kingsolver, Animal Dreams

[kohlboto]

As a "occasional" ebay seller with less than 100 feedback (but at 100%) I hope that you don't leave neutral feedback for this seller. Perhaps you can send him a note to let him know how you personally feel about this transaction so he may be more accurate next time. But you got the item at the price mutually agreed upon so it was a complete transaction.


Agreed. I don't have any desire to mar his 100% feedback rating with negative or neutral ratings as the product was solid. The note approach was attempted and it was not received well, at all..

[kohlboto]

Not everyone on ebay shares the world view of the Serotta forum.
I guess we take for granted how people on this forum treat one another.


oh yes...this forum has wrecked me for the rest of the world...I wouldn't have it any other way.

[PETER REID]

if you agreed to it then let it go. What goes around…. comes around…

Still stranded in NYC…

peter