Giro Stage 4 finish. SPOILER

[Onno]

Can anybody explain what cyclingnews is reporting about the finishing positions--that Bettini has been relegated to 4th for cutting off Cooke at the finish? I don't get it. If Bettini sprinted illegally (as it looked to my unsophisticated eye), then shouldn't he be relegated to last? Or is it last of the leading bunch? Why isn't he just DQ'd? He was clearly running Cooke into the wall. Cooke showed amazing restraint, it seemed to me, in not decking him as he walked by.

Onno

[Len J]

Can anybody explain what cyclingnews is reporting about the finishing positions--that Bettini has been relegated to 4th for cutting off Cooke at the finish? I don't get it. If Bettini sprinted illegally (as it looked to my unsophisticated eye), then shouldn't he be relegated to last? Or is it last of the leading bunch? Why isn't he just DQ'd? He was clearly running Cooke into the wall. Cooke showed amazing restraint, it seemed to me, in not decking him as he walked by.

Onno

My understanding is that failure to keep your line in the last 200M of a raceand impeding another rider + relegation to the end of the bunch you finish with. In this case that moves Bettinifrom first to fourth.

Other reports I have read indicate that Cooke had enough room to move back right and avoid the barriers but took his hand off the bars to push Bettini and clipped Bettini's wheel. I can't wait to see the replay.

It sounds like the officials ruled this right.

Len

PS....DQ and Italian wearing the Maglia Rosa in the Giro?...I don;t think so, not for impeding a rider.

[coylifut]

In any case, this has been a great Giro. Another sprinter's stage spoiled by a mass surge late in the race, forcing a selection. The grand tours of late have been a bit boring with the early break-chase-then bunch gallop. I'm tuning in just to see what happens next.

[weisan]

Why can't Cipo be given a little help with some rejuvenation pills from Dr. Ferrari so he can lock horns with these young bulls in the rush line?

I hate it when I am missing my favorite sprinter. :p

[Spicoli]

What are you guy's watching the daily stage's on. The $5.95 OLN thing or is there something better out there? I have OLN and have been catching the weekend thing but 2hrs. on a 1 minute prologue, LAME! Just curious if there is a better way since OLN is kinda "bitin it" as of late. I've been eating an extra $30 bucks a month for satelite year round for this. It is nice that cycling is on period but they seem pretty haphazard with the coverage. I know we've been over this topic before but I sudenly feel the urge to go buy a bull and try and ride it?

[mtflycaster]

Here you go...

http://www.raiclicktv.it/raiclick/pc/website/0,4388,10-1271-1273-CTY15-CID27365-0-0-0---1-1-ABB0,00.html

[weisan]

Thanks for the feed link, flycaster-pal. Man, looking at Cooke's crash, it reminded me of that stupid spill the Gerolsteiner rider Haselbacher had during the first stage of 2003 TDF.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . They always have GREAT pictures!

<<In this composite picture, the sequence shows race's overall leader Paolo Bettini, left, sprinting past Australia's Baden Cooke as he falls just before the finish, at the fourth stage of the Giro,Tour of Italy cycling race, in Frosinone, southern Italy, Wednesday, May 11, 2005. (AP Photo/Alessandro Trovati) >>

BBDave

[e-RICHIE]

snipped:
"Paolo Bettini, left, sprinting past Australia's Baden Cooke..."





pb was quite ahead of bc when the crash occurred.

[Homsie]

A member of our club, Alto Velo, posted this on our team page. I saw the video....wow!

BTW, sorry to all the people that already paid for the OLN feed!

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/AltoVelo/message/4853

James

[Keith A]

e-Richie -- It depends on what you mean by "quite ahead". They were close enough that Cooke could touch Bettini's saddle and he (Cooke) was moving faster than Bettini.

[e-RICHIE]

i don't know what i meant.
bc is a green jersey guy and an accomplished
field sprinter; i think he's partly to blame for
thinking that with 50-75 meters to go he could
carry that speed past pb's left when there was
barely room for one imaginary rider going 70 kph.
think about that.

[Onno]

I'm impressed by Cooke clearly tucking his head in as he goes over. He must have been going at at least 30 mph; he goes end over end, winds up sliding on his butt, and gets up and walks to the finish line (sans bike). My instinct would have been to look up and raise a hand or something, breaking my neck. These guys have balls, er, nerves of steel.

Onno

[Keith A]

i think he's partly to blame for thinking that with 50-75 meters to go he could carry that speed past pb's left when there was barely room for one imaginary rider going 70 kph.
However, when BC made the move to the left and was coming up along side of PB -- PB was just a little left of the center of the road and at that time there was plenty of room for BC to get around PB.

But it did seem a bit crazy for BC to continue trying to squeeze past PB once BC was pinned against the railing. Maybe BC didn't realize how close he was to the railing -- but obviously only BC knows what he was thinking.

[weisan]

I say this is all an italian conspiracy against the Aussie riders.

http://alicehui.com/serotta/giro88/pbbc.jpg

[shaq-d]

wow. the RAI clip is awesome.

if u look at bettini's face, u get the impression he doesn't know where baden cooke is, and he's just swerving left slowly even before cooke closes in on his wheel.

however: i also suspect these riders use their ears and listen.. and bettini might have been able to figure out where cooke was based on hearing the bike/breathing...

hard to say. but ya, it looks like bettini had the win in the bag either way. he shoulda just kept his line.

[Moveitfred]

Thanks for the link Mtfly. Yeah, if I had endoed like Cooke I would have stuck out my arms and broken every collarbone in my body along with my face and neck. I'm going to start some tumbling practice on the grass...

[neverraced]

What are you guy's watching the daily stage's on. The $5.95 OLN thing or is there something better out there? I have OLN and have been catching the weekend thing but 2hrs. on a 1 minute prologue, LAME! Just curious if there is a better way since OLN is kinda "bitin it" as of late. I've been eating an extra $30 bucks a month for satelite year round for this. It is nice that cycling is on period but they seem pretty haphazard with the coverage. I know we've been over this topic before but I sudenly feel the urge to go buy a bull and try and ride it?

Spicoli--

You can temporarily cancel satelite after the TdF and they won't charge you a thing.
I cancel it from August to May. As long as they have their dish on your roof, they are very accomodating.

[coylifut]

It looked like he pinched him off to me. He started his sprint on the center line and moved all the way left. The relegation looks just to me.

[e-RICHIE]

snipped from an usenet group thread:

"I admit that I'm guilty because when I changed the gear for last time
the chain jumped a little bit. Cooke tried to lean his hand on me, he
failed and fell," Bettini told SportItalia.

[coylifut]

and it appears Bettini took a long look under his arm. It would really surprise me if he didn't see BC's wheel. He then appeared to immediately drift left. When seen at full speed, it looks more like a hook. Not blatent, but a hook none the less.

I'm sure his team will talk him out of quiting the tour in protest while wearing pink. iirc, great Giro.

[kestrel]

It looked like he pinched him off to me. He started his sprint on the center line and moved all the way left. The relegation looks just to me.

I agree Coylifut. My dog can't pinch off a turd as well at PB pinched off BC. Clearly a case of a slower sprinter protecting his turf in the face of a faster sprinter. Sometimes you win these decisions, sometimes you lose them. If he hadn't moved left, he would have lost. 2nd, 4th, what's the difference?

[jerk]

lesson one:
don't pass the maglia rosa on the inside.
lesson two:
just because you're australian doesn't mean you have to be a punk.
lesson three:
the maglia rosa doesn't have to hold his line for punks.

jerk

[e-RICHIE]

and they say men don't feel...

[Keith A]

Can't we just be friends????
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/giro05/giro054/1.jpg

Well then, I'm not spraying my champagne on anyone.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/giro05/giro054/35.jpg

[BBB]

Wearing those dreadful white shorts and not giving Bettini a biff in the hooter means BC most definately was not being a 'punk'.

Now if Bettini had done the same thing to little Robbie...

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . now THAT would have been an amusing finish line dust-up!--at least, to you and me! :rolleyes:

GREAT pics, Keith A! . . . Shot them yourself, of course? ;)

BBDave

[dbrk]

RAI had about four versions of the replay, including one with a great deal of close-up. From my vantage point it appears that Bettini had little or no idea that Cooke was right there on his left before Cooke touches his bike...maybe that's not clear at all. Bettini does move left and Cooke reaches his hand off the bar but it looks too at that point that Cooke drifts just enough left to smack the barrier. The move on Bettini's part was inadvertant but it was also dangerous inasmuch as he is plausibly held responsible for knowing who might be on his left. The ariel shot with Cooke sliding down the road just plain hurt but he crashed like a champ. Bettini clearly too tried to make some sort of amends but Cooke was too upset and then RAI showed Bettini VERY upset with the eventual call. At least, that is what I saw.

I rode a DeRosa today to feel a bit of Italia...

dbrk

[coylifut]

RAI had about four versions of the replay, including one with a great deal of close-up. From my vantage point it appears that Bettini had little or no idea that Cooke was right there on his left before Cooke touches his bike...maybe that's not clear at all. Bettini does move left and Cooke reaches his hand off the bar but it looks too at that point that Cooke drifts just enough left to smack the barrier. The move on Bettini's part was inadvertant but it was also dangerous inasmuch as he is plausibly held responsible for knowing who might be on his left. The ariel shot with Cooke sliding down the road just plain hurt but he crashed like a champ. Bettini clearly too tried to make some sort of amends but Cooke was too upset and then RAI showed Bettini VERY upset with the eventual call. At least, that is what I saw.

I rode a DeRosa today to feel a bit of Italia...

dbrk

I only disagree with one point. At the begining of the footage, it really looked like he was sprinting with his head down looking between his leg for the wheel. As soon as he saw it he tried to take away the inside lane. Great Giro, it's got my interest.

[Spicoli]

Here you go...

http://www.raiclicktv.it/raiclick/pc/website/0,4388,10-1271-1273-CTY15-CID27365-0-0-0---1-1-ABB0,00.html
Thank you very much. Now thats what I was looking for, there is always a better way. FORUM IS GOOD!!! YES? :banana:

Neveraced your right on with that idea. They (OLN) are gettin canned right after the tour and called up again in March. My brother just did exactly that and now me. :butt:

[Spicoli]

Cooke must have been knackered and had 0 0/2 going to his brain for doing that one. I dont think Bettini did anything wrong, he was still far enough from the line to protect his inside and any chucklehead knows he is going to hug a barrier/curb/wall, whatever in a sprint. Why protect or have to watch for someone coming around you on two sides? Even the biggest FRED would know he was going to shut down one side or the other, they still had between 80-100m to go. Looks more like Cooke had his head down, overlapped him and choked. Like it or not Cooke caused that more than Bettini. Definatly not a blatent wheel sweep. My 02cents :no:

[William]

Just my opinion.

Watching the replay a number of times, It appeared to me from the overhead shot, and the close up front angle, that he checked under his shoulder/between his leggs a few times leading up to the crash. The last one appearing right before he started drifting left. It looked to me as though he was attempting a low key closeing of the door. Cooke had his draft and was accelerating.
With that being said, there wasn't much room against the barrier before Bettini shifted over. It was going to be a tight squeeze reguardless. Cooke rolled the dice, Bettini squeezed him, they both lost.

William

[weisan]

lesson one:
don't pass the maglia rosa on the inside.
lesson two:
just because you're australian doesn't mean you have to be a punk.
lesson three:
the maglia rosa doesn't have to hold his line for punks.

jerk

Erh.....we need an independent to give us an unbiased analysis on this one. Darrell, would you care to comment?

I still think it's an italian conspiracy. :rolleyes:

[Moveitfred]

Even the biggest FRED would know he was going to shut down one side or the other :no:

Yeah, I did know that.

[Keith A]

GREAT pics, Keith A! . . . Shot them yourself, of course? ;)Thanks! I was using my new camera that has a zoom lense that enables me to snap such quality pictures all the way from Florida :D

[Spicoli]

Yeah, I did know that.
But seriously I looked at the clip again and even before Bettini (supposedly) drifts you can see Cooke overlap him and stick his left knee out to counter balance while he still had a ton of space. Cooke pulled a Claven/Munson or just plain did not have control. Nothing wrong with that, just dont piss about afterwards and play the blame game because your embarresed. :bike: :confused:

[Onno]

But seriously I looked at the clip again and even before Bettini (supposedly) drifts


"Supposedly drifts"? Just what clip are you looking at. He comes over about 2 meters, to within less than a meter of the wall. There's no question that Bettini is trying to cut Cooke off. And Bettini says that his slipping chain caused his wheel to skid into Cooke's front wheel. So what is Cooke supposed to be embarrassed about?

Onno

[Spicoli]

"Supposedly drifts"? Just what clip are you looking at. He comes over about 2 meters, to within less than a meter of the wall. There's no question that Bettini is trying to cut Cooke off. And Bettini says that his slipping chain caused his wheel to skid into Cooke's front wheel. So what is Cooke supposed to be embarrassed about?

Onno
Once he starts to go, of course he is going to go to the barrier and he did not even come close to sweeping his wheel. They were on the left side of the road so there is a 99.9% chance Bettini is going to shut it down on that side. No abrupt swerve just what anyone who's been in that situation knows to do. I'm sorry you are right he does drift and they have plenty of distance to the line and there is nothing wrong with that, nice and smooth not a cut off. Its not a bunch sprint of 50 guy's who think they can win, it's a group of four and I am questioning Cooke's bike skills for putting himself in that situation. You can clearly see him putting a knee out? He probably had more top end and Bettini was starting to kick w/out losing him and he had boatloads of open road if he did not overlap and screw himself. Cooke for whatever reason tried to come around him that way? IMO Cooke made a mess of that and bettini did nothing wrong with the distance they had to the line. That same situation will happen a million more times this year w/out a crash and w/out anyone even batting an eye. Unfortunatly for Cooke, he probably would have won easily even if he eased up to give back the 1" overlap. :confused:

[coylifut]

But seriously I looked at the clip again and even before Bettini (supposedly) drifts you can see Cooke overlap him and stick his left knee out to counter balance while he still had a ton of space. Cooke pulled a Claven/Munson or just plain did not have control. Nothing wrong with that, just dont piss about afterwards and play the blame game because your embarresed. :bike: :confused:

You make very good points. It's a tough one to call. I can see how the officials could rule either way. Stage 4 is over and a very entertaining Giro rolls on. I blame Cooke's comments on his handlers. It's not prudent to let a rider talk to the media right after he took a pavement tumble like that. I took a similar tumble where I broke my shoulder and when I came up I was livid. Before I could run off at the mouth, my team manager put me in his car and wouldn't let me talk to anyone until I was composed. It kept me from having to make allot of apologies later. I don't expect people to take personal responsibility immediately after loosing a bunch of skin. He does need to put it behind him in due time though. Ods are, we'll still be talking about this after the riders have gone forward.

Great Giro.

[e-RICHIE]

interesting p.o.v. from c. vande velde:

"Speaking of Paolo, I'm sure you've all seen the video from today's (Wednesday) finish. I'm on the fence there. I mean I've seen worse that have never resulted in a relegation. I know he was coming over, but he never even hit him. Baden was trying to force his way into a gap that wasn't there. If it had been me up there sprinting - which of course would never be the case, because I'm not a sprinter - I would have stopped. Baden being the gutsy sprinter that he is, he just kept trying to make it through that hole and it was steadily shrinking.
The way the barriers are set up, the tops lean out away from the road, so they're bound to take out your wheel before your bump them with your shoulder. Of course, once he started going down, it looks as though the barrier is what slowed the impact, so Cookie wasn't too hurt from the looks of it.
Either way, when I look at the video, I could go either way. I know the judges made a fast decision, but I am still on the fence on that one."

[ada@prorider.or]

Can anybody explain what cyclingnews is reporting about the finishing positions--that Bettini has been relegated to 4th for cutting off Cooke at the finish? I don't get it. If Bettini sprinted illegally (as it looked to my unsophisticated eye), then shouldn't he be relegated to last? Or is it last of the leading bunch? Why isn't he just DQ'd? He was clearly running Cooke into the wall. Cooke showed amazing restraint, it seemed to me, in not decking him as he walked by.

Onno


well simply bettini was place last of his group
and by the way
it was cooke hit bettini not otherway around
i would say it was not bettini;s fault
despite every one says here
watched about 100 times the scene from differant tv station's
and there satrnd no where the last 200 meters
must be a straight line
it simply says last 200 the rider must keep its line
and the line can be let say 85 degrees

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . that as long as Bettini continues in a straight line for the last 200 meters, that straight line does not necessarily need to be straight TOWARD the finish line? It can be at an angle, and that Cooke should have seen this and taken appropriate evasive action?

BBDave

[e-RICHIE]

i don't know what "he's" saying but that explanation jives
with my sprinting tactics and knowledge of the rules.



ps
i bet ada@prorider.org knows the rules too!!!!

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . he knows the rules. I’m just now making up my mind that I think it was more Cooke’s fault than Bettini’s. Cooke was trying to squeeze through a gap that was closing--and he could SEE that from his vantage point much better than Bettini may have been able to see what was behind him. He was taking a risk trying to squeeze through an opeining that was disappearing--and the gamble didn’t work. But I can’t blame him for lodging a protest anyway. I don’t believe there is a penalty of any kind for lodging a protest, so the worst that could have happened to him would be that it got denied.

BBDave

[e-RICHIE]

he rode into the back of a guy
who was traveling more slowly
than he. fall down. go boom.

[jerk]

he's a punk.

[ada@prorider.or]

. . . that as long as Bettini continues in a straight line for the last 200 meters, that straight line does not necessarily need to be straight TOWARD the finish line? It can be at an angle, and that Cooke should have seen this and taken appropriate evasive action?

BBDave

well straight does here not mean angle '0'
it must be towords to finish line and that what he did

[weisan]

he's a punk.

Darrell, whereeeee are yoooouuu?

We need an Aussie P.O.V. Like 93+Legend+Titanium said, the Jerk can't be trusted.

[jeffg]

"just because you're Australian doesn't mean you have to be a punk!"

Indeed, see the reactions of O'Grady (Cooke would be justified in punching Bettini), Robbie et al. Australians, at least in the peloton (or in the bars of any European ski resort) seem to have certain flair for machismo that puts others to shame.

[cs124]

Darrell, whereeeee are yoooouuu?

We need an Aussie P.O.V. Like 93+Legend+Titanium said, the Jerk can't be trusted.

Well I reckon Il Grillo shut the door but Cookie still tried to force his way through. Hey, he took the punt and lost in spectacular fashion. The unsportsmanlike displays of both riders did neither any favours IMO.

Punk? Hmmm. The jerk may have excellent taste in bikes and may or may not have a palmares of note but he is no judge of character when he calls Cookie a punk but eulogises a guy who pretends to shoot himself while talking to his wife on the phone.

There, said it...flame on.

[cs124]

"just because you're Australian doesn't mean you have to be a punk!"

Indeed, see the reactions of O'Grady (Cooke would be justified in punching Bettini), Robbie et al. Australians, at least in the peloton (or in the bars of any European ski resort) seem to have certain flair for machismo that puts others to shame.

I'd suggest it's better to stop the derogatory racial sterotypes while it's still reasonably civil. No good will come of escalating this line of discussion.

[soulspinner]

With all that momentum why not go around him on the right. Hindsights day old bread all right...

[Keith A]

Check out the comments that Cooke made to CyclingNews...

"Some of the Italian media are saying he didn't do anything wrong. Silvio Martinello is quoted as saying 'Cooke's wrong. The rules are clear; a rider can't change their line in the last 200m, but Cooke made a mistake to try and pass on the inside' I was just trying to get around him! What was I going to do? Go up on the footpath? Anyone who says I chose the wrong side...there was only 20 centimetres in it. We were almost in the middle of the road. If anything, the road was bending the other , so I've really come around the outside. There was no wind. I didn't go for any advantage there. I could have gone left or right. I only had 20 centimetres more on the other side - there was no difference."

You can see more info at Cooke still sore (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2005/may05/may13news2) which is at the bottom of the page.

[CNote]

I haven't followed this thread, but the Giro certainly has the worst podium music imaginable.

[ada@prorider.or]

I haven't followed this thread, but the Giro certainly has the worst podium music imaginable.


but one of the nicest podium girls
(lol)