is 953 dead ?

[rustychain]

My 953 Independent Fabracation SSR is the best road/race bike I have ever tried and I have been riding and racing from sometime in the 1970's.
Love it. I noticed however that IF has dropped 953 :crap: As I recall IF was one of if not the first company to produce 953. I know they had issues getting a full polish out of it but I am unaware of any other issues. Anyone know the deal? I wanted a cross bike built in 953 not only for its ride but it's dent resistance. I guess thats not going to happen

[skijoring]

are they continuing with XcR? It's another stainless steel...maybe better quality?

[rustychain]

Yes they went to XcR. I have heard arguments about the merrits of both and like all such topics it gets nowere. I would like to know specificly if XcR is as dent resistant. I have had several bad crashes on my 953 with cars and deer and it still is dent/scratch free

[alexstar]

Dave Kirk works with 953 - hopefully he will chime in here.

Check out his new JKS X, built with a 953 main triangle. This will be my next bike.

http://www.kirkframeworks.com/blog/2010/10/25/new-stuff/

[joelh]

I hope not. I have seem a Waterford in 953 and it is one of the pretties bikes I have ever seen. It will always be on my wish list

[Dave Wages]

While I don't know why IF has decided to drop 953, there are plenty of other builders using it to good effect. I built quite a few bikes with it at Waterford, and continue to use it for Ellis Cycles. The real beauty, aside from the potential for polishing to a high gloss, is the amazing strenght characteristics of 953 and how thin it can be drawn. This allows for the use of oversize or double oversize (XL) tubes without the extra weight that might be expected for the fatter tubes. I've got a main diamond for a 60cm frame that's waiting for the rear end parts, but I weighed it at about 2.4 lbs. Not bad for a big bike, and I doubt it's going to be flexy or fragile.

As time has gone by, Reynolds has also introduced more diameters and gauges of 953, making it even more attractive for bikes across all sizes.

I'm also interested in the new XCr for lugs that's going to be released soon. I haven't used any yet, but I'm in line to try it out.

And finally, KVA is a US based company who just recently introduced their own stainless tubeset. I've got a set here, but haven't built anything with it yet.

Cheers,
Dave

[jghall]

Dave,
I'd be interested to get your initial reactions to the KVA tubes, understanding you have not built anything with it yet.

From initial research, it appears to be quite a bit less expensive then 95/xcr?

Thanks for the time.

[97CSI]

Interesting. Makes me wonder if I shouldn't change the build spec on my touring bike from a mix of 853/531 to 953. Might be lighter and stronger and a better choice for a touring rig.

[crownjewelwl]

I considered an SSR before I settled on my Ti Crown Jewel. At the time, IF was still using 953. My shop said they were having trouble sourcing 953 and were transitioning to XCr. Perhaps 953 is more readily available now, but IF already switched to XCr and sees no reason to switch back?

Someone at IF will always pick up the phone. I'm sure they'd be happy to answer the question.

[Dave Wages]

Dave,
I'd be interested to get your initial reactions to the KVA tubes, understanding you have not built anything with it yet.

From initial research, it appears to be quite a bit less expensive then 95/xcr?

Thanks for the time.

The only part I've used so far has been the 22.2 round oval round chainstay, and I must say, I really like them. Reynolds has always had trouble tapering their 953 stays down, so consequently, the ends are usually quite a bit larger, (and more challenging to fill), than a regular steel stay. The KVA stays have a nice taper and the ends are comparable to a non stainless stay.

As for pricing, I know they were offering tubes at an introductory price, but I'm not sure what the final pricing will be. You're right though, for now it is a fair bit cheaper than 953 or XCr, but they don't have nearly the variety of tubes that Reynolds offers.

Cheers,
Dave

[John M]

........ strength characteristics of 953 and how thin it can be drawn. This allows for the use of oversize or double oversize (XL) tubes without the extra weight that might be expected for the fatter tubes..........

Thanks for putting your expertise into this thread. How is the thin-walled stainless for dent resistance?

[Dave Wages]

Interesting. Makes me wonder if I shouldn't change the build spec on my touring bike from a mix of 853/531 to 953. Might be lighter and stronger and a better choice for a touring rig.

I guess before you make that change there's quite a few variables to consider. When Reynolds introduced 953, it was mainly in diameters and wall thicknesses specifically for "race" bikes. They've expanded the offerings over the last couple years, but I'm still not sure I'd build a loaded touring bike with the tubes that are currently available. That, plus the fact the the stays are not really heavy enough as well.

The tricky part that confuses some folks is that 953 is really strong, but for a given diameter and wall thickness, it's not any stiffer than 853 or 531 or any other steel tubing for that matter. The high strength allows them to make tubes in thicknesses that would have previously. What intrigues me about 953 is the ability to use these thin tubes in larger diameters to get the ride I'm shooting for without adding significant weight to the frame. For folks riding 58cm frames and up, the XL tubes and lugs are a really nice option. For smaller folks that I might have steered toward standard gauge tubing to avoid an overly harsh ride on OS tubes, the new thin OS 953 tubes are a great option.

To answer your question, without knowing the specifics of your touring bike, load, size, your weight, it's hard to say if 953 would be the best option. I'd chat with your framebuider about it.

Cheers,
Dave

[eddief]

an entire page devoted to care and feeding of stainless.

[Dave Wages]

Thanks for putting your expertise into this thread. How is the thin-walled stainless for dent resistance?

It's pretty tough stuff, so it's harder to dent, but not "un-dentable"!

[David Kirk]

I do a lot of work with select 953 tubes and the only issue seems to be supply. Reynolds has trouble keeping a consistent supply on hand so the lead time is always long. I manage to have it in stock at all times but I always have a good bit on back order. Knowing that it will take a very long time to get a given order I always over-order.

Dave W. nails it - it's not for everyone or every bike. But for the right application it's very good stuff.

Dave

[jr59]

I do a lot of work with select 953 tubes and the only issue seems to be supply. Reynolds has trouble keeping a consistent supply on hand so the lead time is always long. I manage to have it in stock at all times but I always have a good bit on back order. Knowing that it will take a very long time to get a given order I always over-order.

Dave W. nails it - it's not for everyone or every bike. But for the right application it's very good stuff.

Dave

Thanks to Dave and Dave for the info!

I would like to ask Mr Kirk, what type of rider is it for?

[David Kirk]

Thanks to Dave and Dave for the info!

I would like to ask Mr Kirk, what type of rider is it for?

I think one just needs to keep in mind that 953, as a material, is not more or less stiff than any other steel............and since 953 tends to be thinner that the tubes made from most other steels it ends up being a little more flexible. One can make the bike with XL sized tubes (as opposed to OS) and more than make up for the thinner wall's stiffness.

So I think that most any rider can be accommodated with 953........ at least with regards to the main tubes. I don't use any of the 953 c-stays or s-stays because I find them to not fit my needs but if we are talking main tubes I'm happy with light riders (less than 190ish) on OS tubes and from there up would consider going to XL tubes. Note that this is not a strength or safety issue but a stiffness/performance one. I think the smaller tube might leave a bigger more aggressive rider wanting more. But even then it depends on what the rider wants from the bike.

Make sense?

Dave

[Ahneida Ride]

from hanging out at Kelley's shop, I've surmised that ....

953 is non-trivial to machine. takes patience and proper tools.

If one is lugging 953, one requires special skills. (953 is unforgiving of heat
errors. brazing 953 is not for the uninitiated.)

953 chain stays are sub optimal for stronger and/or Clydesdale riders.

[Dave Wages]

from hanging out at Kelley's shop, I've surmised that ....

953 is non-trivial to machine. takes patience and proper tools.

If one is lugging 953, one requires special skills. (953 is unforgiving of heat
errors. brazing 953 is not for the uninitiated.)

953 chain stays are sub optimal for stronger and/or Clydesdale riders.

Ray, you're right on all counts here.

1. Since I don't have a milling machine for tube mitering, I miter by hand, using a hacksaw to rough out the miter and then a file to finish the shaping. On 953 tubes, the files are pretty much out the window, as the material just blows the teeth off. I end up doing the rough in with a hacksaw, some gentle shaping on my belt sander and then the final fit with an abrasive belt and my dynafile. After a few bikes, this is actually not as much of a PITA as it might sound, and a typical miter takes about 5-10 minutes.

2. Brazing stainless is much more challenging than regular steel. It tends to not heat up as consistently as steel, and the chance of overheating is much greater with the thinner tubes. I'm lucky to have gotten lots of experience under my belt brazing stainless lugs and tubing at Waterford, but I can attest to the fact that it is always a notch more challenging than non-stainless.

3. The current offerings in rear end parts are limited to fairly light gauge tubes that are best suited to the lighter rider. I've asked if heavier stays are in the works, but nothing as of now. This means that heavier riders, or folks who'd like the stainless for a light touring bike are out of luck.

Cheers,
Dave

[97CSI]

1. Since I don't have a milling machine for tube mitering, I miter by hand, using a hacksaw to rough out the miter and then a file to finish the shaping. On 953 tubes, the files are pretty much out the window, as the material just blows the teeth off.
Cheers,
DaveIf you are interested, and have the skills (knowledge), it is often possible to rent time on a Bridgeport at a small machine shop. In this economy, they might even be willing to teach you to use.

[Dave Wages]

If you are interested, and have the skills (knowledge), it is often possible to rent time on a Bridgeport at a small machine shop. In this economy, they might even be willing to teach you to use.

Thanks for the tip, but I'm doing the work by hand purely by choice. I've used Bridgeports at both Serotta and Waterford, and I recognize their value, but I'm doing just fine with the hand tools. :beer:

[August]

Thanks for the tip, but I'm doing the work by hand purely by choice. I've used Bridgeports at both Serotta and Waterford, and I recognize their value, but I'm doing just fine with the hand tools. :beer:

You build frames without mills? Cancel my order.

[dave thompson]

You build frames without mills? Cancel my order.
What the hell kind of comment is that? There are more than a few top-tier builders that don't use mills, Dave Wages amongst them.

Welcome to the forum.

[Louis]

What the hell kind of comment is that? There are more than a few top-tier builders that don't use mills, Dave Wages amongst them.

I assumed that it was a joke.

Why buy from a one-man outfit unless you appreciate his skill and knowledge? If you want machine-built buy a mass-market frame.

[dave thompson]

I assumed that it was a joke.

Why buy from a one-man outfit unless you appreciate his skill and knowledge? If you want machine-built buy a mass-market frame.
Maybe I'm getting cranky because I'm old/it's winter/I have too much time on my hands.

[Louis]

Maybe I'm getting cranky because I'm old/it's winter/I have too much time on my hands.

Time to move permanently down to that retirement community in Cabo. :beer:

[dave thompson]

Time to move permanently down to that retirement community in Cabo. :beer:
January 28th my friend.......

[97CSI]

Time to move permanently down to that retirement community in Cabo. :beer:I wish. I'd settle for Sanibel, Brownsville, Tucson, etc. Think the wife is weakening.

[August]

Maybe I'm getting cranky because I'm old/it's winter/I have too much time on my hands.
I just realized that was my first post. Maybe I have too much time on my hands.

I already have two frames from Dave, so you can be sure I think his work is good, mill or no. Nice to be here on the Serotta forums.

[oldpotatoe]

from hanging out at Kelley's shop, I've surmised that ....

953 is non-trivial to machine. takes patience and proper tools.

If one is lugging 953, one requires special skills. (953 is unforgiving of heat
errors. brazing 953 is not for the uninitiated.)

953 chain stays are sub optimal for stronger and/or Clydesdale riders.



Have this frame-

http://waterfordbikes.com/now/home.php?newstype=r953over

It's on ebay right now but I have to admit, I'm having seller's remorse. It rides really well but the bend of the fork and chainstay length(42cm) make it 'look' kinda like an 'old man's bike'. Maybe as I approach my .6 of a century birthday, I don't want things to remind me I'm almost .6 of a century.

Probably won't sell...not sure if I'm going to build it back up or what.

Gotta choose between 2 Merckx's and this. Can only ride one bike at a time. i have a wet weather bike(Moots).

[97CSI]

Peter - depends on how old your Waterford frameset is, but a good chance that it was built by Dave Wages.

As we are talking tubing, is 753 still available?

[Dave Wages]

Peter - depends on how old your Waterford frameset is, but a good chance that it was built by Dave Wages.

As we are talking tubing, is 753 still available?

I have a feeling that bike was built after I left Waterford in early 2008.

As for 753, there are a few builders out there with a stash of 753, but it's no longer available from Reynolds.

Cheers,
Dave

[Dave Wages]

You build frames without mills? Cancel my order.


I'm sawing your frame in half as we speak! :D

Dave

[Bob Ross]

I wish. I'd settle for Sanibel, Brownsville, Tucson, etc. Think the wife is weakening.

Shee-it, my wife wants to move to Tucson now! Gummint sez I gotta wait another 15 years though.

Oh, uh, sorry for thread drift...

[Lionel]

I'm also interested in the new XCr for lugs that's going to be released soon. I haven't used any yet, but I'm in line to try it out.



I'm sort of interested too. Please don't cancel my order :beer:

Back to the OT, I have a XCr Strong and it's going strong ( :) ) with no dent. I do think that XCr is quite dent resistant as well.

[oldpotatoe]

Peter - depends on how old your Waterford frameset is, but a good chance that it was built by Dave Wages.

As we are talking tubing, is 753 still available?

Built early 2009. Dave had already left. I 'think' it was built by Mark Mueller.

[August]

To post something relevant: I have a bike built mostly with 953, and I work with guys who ride XCR for TIG, and there have been no durability issues come up whatsoever. As far as I'm concerned, stainless is about as good a material for bike frames as exists. In the hands of a few capable builders, stainless has really opened up some new avenues--my 953 bike is within ounces of my ti bike with a carbon fork, and the ride is still what you'd expect from contemporary steel.

[pjmsj21]

Taking this a bit off topic but I just visited Dave's site and have drool all over my computer when looking at Dave's personal bike, the eighth one down.

http://elliscycles.com/17.html

[oldpotatoe]

Taking this a bit off topic but I just visited Dave's site and have drool all over my computer when looking at Dave's personal bike, the eighth one down.

http://elliscycles.com/17.html

No downtube shifter bosses?

Carbon fork?

Harrrumph!!!

[Dave Wages]

No downtube shifter bosses?

Carbon fork?

Harrrumph!!!

It's funny you mention the carbon fork, it's no longer with us, so to speak! About a year and a half ago, I was waiting outside a friend's house before a ride, and as I sat on the bike with the front brake on, I noticed that I could flex the fork a couple inches back and forth..., not good! I very gently rode it about a mile back to my house and after switching to my singlespeed for the ride, I pulled the fork out the next day. It had a crack in the steerer about 1" up from the crown race, and it flexed like a piece of celery. The glue had broken, but the fibers hadn't, so at least my face was spared.

I sent the fork back to Reynolds, they warrantied it, but in the interim, I built a steel fork for that bike, and I've been riding it ever since. Definitely not as light as the carbon, but I think it rides every bit as good and I don't believe it'll be breaking anytime soon.

As a final note, I'm considering selling that blue frame if anyone is interested, I need to "thin the herd" a bit to make room for some new projects in the works. Look for the bike/frame in the classified soon!

Cheers,
Dave

[Dave Wages]

Built early 2009. Dave had already left. I 'think' it was built by Mark Mueller.

I have a feeling it was most likely built by E.J. Mueller, Mark's son. As far as I know, he's doing the lion's share of the brazing since I left, and almost certainly all the stainless bikes. I'm not sure if he stamps the bottom brackets of bikes that he builds, but I know all the bikes I built had my initials, "DW", stamped just behind the plastic cable guides, FWIW.

Cheers,
Dave

[rustychain]

As to heavy riders using 953, I'm 95 kilos and aggressive on the bike. My 953 is very stiff. That said IF was asked to build this bike for my weight and riding style. I wanted a quick handling full blown race bike and that's what I got. Power transfer is awesome and no noticeable flex even pushing 1500 watts. As I posted before it's dent resistance is noticeable better then my prior Ti alu and steel frames. Total bike set up to race is 15 lbs spot on with no weight restricted parts. IMO 953 IS a great option for big/ powerful riders wanting a high performance machine. I will try to see if IF will build me a cross bike in 953 as I think it would be the best possible material for my applaction

[Dave Wages]

I'm sort of interested too. Please don't cancel my order :beer:

Back to the OT, I have a XCr Strong and it's going strong ( :) ) with no dent. I do think that XCr is quite dent resistant as well.

Lionel,

I just sent the folks at Columbus an email to check on your tubes!

As for XCr, I would imagine it's more dent resistant, as the wall thicknesses are a bit thicker than the thinnest tubes Reynolds offers.

[Dave Wages]

As to heavy riders using 953, I'm 95 kilos and aggressive on the bike. My 953 is very stiff. That said IF was asked to build this bike for my weight and riding style. I wanted a quick handling full blown race bike and that's what I got. Power transfer is awesome and no noticeable flex even pushing 1500 watts. As I posted before it's dent resistance is noticeable better then my prior Ti alu and steel frames. Total bike set up to race is 15 lbs spot on with no weight restricted parts. IMO 953 IS a great option for big/ powerful riders wanting a high performance machine. I will try to see if IF will build me a cross bike in 953 as I think it would be the best possible material for my applaction

I'd be curious to see what tubes they used, and the geometry. Can you post a pic? I assume it's a full 953 frame, main tubes and stays?

Cheers,
Dave

[pdmtong]

Total bike set up to race is 15 lbs spot on with no weight restricted parts.

mind sharing your build? wondering how I can get my SSR to lose some weight

I have a budget build of 2010 force/mavic K SL's that weighs 17.2 with cages/DA7810 pedals

[oldpotatoe]

I have a feeling it was most likely built by E.J. Mueller, Mark's son. As far as I know, he's doing the lion's share of the brazing since I left, and almost certainly all the stainless bikes. I'm not sure if he stamps the bottom brackets of bikes that he builds, but I know all the bikes I built had my initials, "DW", stamped just behind the plastic cable guides, FWIW.

Cheers,
Dave

Thanks, I'll check. I seem to remember thanking Mark on the phone, and I think I recall he said his son made it.. I think I said something like, I hope the young whipper-snapper knows what he's doin'!" Mark kinda deep chuckled. I think he does. Really do like the ride, just not the long stays.

[rustychain]

My 953 IF SR, 57.5 top tube.
Super Record shifters (front derailure shutting guts removed as I prefer to use a downtube shifter)
Carbon downtube shifter for front derailure
Edge carbon handlebars
Ritchey WCS carbon stem
Thompson setback seatpost
Tune speedneedle saddle (love it)
EE brakes
King headset
Edge 2.0 fork
Emporelli bottle cages
Super Record crank
Super Record derailures
Super Record cassette
Record chain
Keo Blade Ti pedals
Edge 2.38 wheels tubular
M2 skewers
Handlebar custom bar tape

I will try to find the build sheet and post the geometry. It was built using all 953 tubes. The frame came in 10 grams lighter then my Ti frame at the time and is much stiffer then the Ti.

[pdmtong]

My 953 IF SR, 57.5 top tube.
Super Record shifters (front derailure shutting guts removed as I prefer to use a downtube shifter)
Carbon downtube shifter for front derailure
Edge carbon handlebars
Ritchey WCS carbon stem
Thompson setback seatpost
Tune speedneedle saddle (love it)
EE brakes
King headset
Edge 2.0 fork
Emporelli bottle cages
Super Record crank
Super Record derailures
Super Record cassette
Record chain
Keo Blade Ti pedals
Edge 2.38 wheels tubular
M2 skewers
Handlebar custom bar tape

I will try to find the build sheet and post the geometry. It was built using all 953 tubes. The frame came in 10 grams lighter then my Ti frame at the time and is much stiffer then the Ti.

thanks for sharing this.

one day, my SSR is dressed like yours. this explainds how budget differs from dreams....2 pounds!

[legacysti888]

My 953 Independent Fabracation SSR is the best road/race bike I have ever tried and I have been riding and racing from sometime in the 1970's.

It's a pure race bike. Stiff, fast and unforgiving. Here's mine. How does the XCR compare in ride?