Feedback Thread on Custom Builders [Archive]

rugbysecondrow

12-14-2010, 08:29 AM

Reading the feedback thread for buyers and sellers got me thinking about how you read almost nothing but positive feedback regarding frame builders. I am not certain why this is the case, but it seems that people really don't like to say anything bad about builders even when their negative experience has cost them thousands of dollars (FRNs for AR). That seems unfair to potential customers who rely on a forum like this to find honest feedback on many builders. This isn't because nobody has bad experiences as I have been shocked at how many people come out of the woodwork with their issues about many builders, but these are not issues I would have ever found in a thread or on this forum. I think it is time that we have some honest feedback on builders and do so in an informative way (we do it for Forumites in the Classified section). I don't see this as gripe thread, but rather a way to communicate from one customer to another.

In that light, I will kick this off by discussing my experience with Paul Taylor.

rugbysecondrow

12-14-2010, 08:30 AM

In February of 2010, I put a deposit down on a Paul Taylor frame (was part of the special he was offering) that would be a Lite Tourer with Couplers. I began my relationship with Smiley by getting a fitting and starting the process of developing my fit requirements for this frame from Mr. Taylor (3 trips with about 6-8 hours spent). When my deposit was paid, the delivery date for the frame was mid-May. Initially there was good communication via email and phone. We had some good conversations that helped me feel comfortable with the process and that he was understanding what my needs/wants were. It was during these conversations that I articulated that I wanted the frame to be a great fall/winter rider. In April, I was told that the date would slip until June, I also paid a follow up payment for some parts he was purchasing for me. When June came, I was told the date was slipping until July. I was told I would have it by the end of July for a trip I was taking in August and I wanted to take the coupled bike with me. In July, I was told the date would slip until August, but I would certainly have it in time for my first Century Ride the 2nd weekend of September. That date passed as well. I was told the end of September, and that date passed.

Going back to July, I was told the delay was due to the powder coating shop not cooperating. I was told it was poorly done and they were balking at redoing the work. Then, in August he was moving from Nevada to Bozeman, MT and he said it was taken to a new shop in MT. He then said the delays were in prep and that all he had to do was prep the frame for shipping and I would have it. That never happened. After not getting responses to my emails, phone calls not being answered, I decided the trust was broken. I didn't come to this point lightly, but in mid October, I told Mr. Taylor that I either needed the frame, a photo of the frame with a firm ETA or my money back. He decided to send me my money back.

My frustration with the process was not just that it was delayed, but that I think the frame was never built, never sent to paint and that I was being strung along with promises made and broken. As a customer, I can deal with reasonable delays, but I felt misled and that really tainted the process of working with Taylor. It got to the point that I really did not want the frame, I would have paid for it and taken it, but the interaction with him left me cold. I think it is important for builders to understand the vesting the customer has in the process. The interaction, the thoughts, the daydreaming, the parts purchasing...everything that went into the frame (time and money) was really lost due to the mistrust that developed.

I wish it was different with Paul. I wanted it to be different, but it not. If a new potential customer is looking at going the custom route with Mr. Taylor, I would certainly take in all the pro comments as well as my con comments as I am sure there are people who have had positive experiences with Taylor. With that being said, I would hope a future customer of Taylor would have a firm discussion about expectations and I would not be shy about asking him about delays or even this experience. From what I hear, he builds very nice bikes and I am disappointed that I don't have one of them.

SamIAm

12-14-2010, 09:30 AM

You are a brave man to bring this taboo topic front and center.

I will start by saying that I have heard from 2 other forum members with regard to their frustration with Taylor. Your experience is certainly not unique.

I have previously used this forum for this purpose in regard to Troy Watson/Ligero wheels. In Troy's case it turned into an outright theft of time and money.

Your example is more a theft of time and emotion, which is equally painful. I have certainly been there and as I have said previously, the "one man shop" is the most common violator. I do get the fact that such a shop is going to miss most of the time and sometimes miss big. What I can't accept is the litany of excuses and sometimes outright fabrications that go along with it. Just tell me the truth and I can deal with it.

Of all the builders I have worked with, the most professional from communication-quality-ontime delivery metrics was David Kirk with close seconds going to Dave Wages (Ellis) and Kelly Bedford. Maybe its something in the Serotta lineage?

eddief

12-14-2010, 09:50 AM

and know it's tempting to air this sort of stuff here with friends and fellow forum members. how do we best let off steam and inform about sh*t customer service or downright thievery?

on the other hand, this is the SEROTTA sponsored forum, and i fear SEROTTA would not want to get its fine reputation tarnished by us folks blabbing about many sided custom framebuilder stories from our own personal points of view.

a new website perhaps: wikiframebuilderleaks.org

buck-50

12-14-2010, 09:57 AM

Banjo Cycles in Madison, WI.
Custom Randonneur frame and stem for me, a first time custom buyer.

Ahren (the builder) and I share a similar taste in bikes, so when I brought my copy of "Golden age of handbuilt bikes" into his shop, He knew the bike I was thinking of. Initial meeting went very well. This was late december/early january. We agreed on basic specs and I sent him a deposit and got a rough timeline, initially 8 months.

In June we met again for fit- I had filled out his (very comprehensive) fit form, but there were some things that didn't look right to him so he had me come over to the shop with my bike to double check some things. He also had me ride one of his bikes with a similar build/geometry so we could discuss the finer points of low trail forks (we ended up with more medium trail).

In august the frame was supposed to be done but hadn't been started yet- the builder had some setbacks, and communication got a little spotty how much of this was his fault and how much of this was my fault for getting kinda antsy is open to debate.

We met again in september to pick tubes- a mix of NOS reynolds 531 and Deddacadici zero and he was very careful to point out different tubing profiles (modern chainstays are taller/more ovalized, old ones are far rounder, etc). I gave him the bulk of the parts that would be used for the build.

Ahren called me when the initial build was done so I could see the frame and stem in the raw, go over it one more time and make sure everything was in place.

Delivery was several months late- mid-December. Powder coat was done by Spectrum, which added a few weeks to the process. Initially the builder was going to do the powdercoating in house, but I asked for something a bit more complicated and he didn't want the headache.

In the end, I got an amazing frame. The bike is everything I wanted it to be- light and agile but with room for fenders and fat tires, neutral steering geometry with a small front bag, smooth and snappy. The fillets are small and very minimal- very Alex Singer.

any real issues? Ahren is new. Pair a customer who's never ordered custom with a new builder and you're gonna have some issues. If one of us was more experienced at this, we probably wouldn't have used horizontal drops on a bike with fenders- kind of a PITA when removing the rear wheel, but nothing that I'd complain about, especially since it was my choice. Delivery took 4 months longer than expected, but again, the builder had some legitimate issues and he's new at this so scheduling isn't his strong suit.

Would I recommend Banjo to anyone else? In a heartbeat. If you want a traditionally styled Rando bike, Ahren is your man.

pbjbike

12-14-2010, 10:07 AM

a new website perhaps: wikiframebuilderleaks.org

Maybe a list of builders with a star rating system, like ebay has for seller feedback? Overall satisfaction with the interaction, communication, build quality, delivery time vs. estimate, etc.

If you wanted to know more about a particular experience, it's easy enough to PM the buyer here.

Dave Wages

12-14-2010, 10:35 AM

As hesitant as I am to jump into this potential minefield, I would like to relate a story.

I started doing some furniture building after my wife and I bought out first house, and over the past 7 or 8 years, I've built a bed, a desk for my father in law, and some other pieces. I really enjoy woodworking, and while I was still with Waterford, I even toyed with the idea of trying to do it as a business. What stopped me was this, I'm not really great at woodworking. Sure, I can get a project finished, and they usually look fine, maybe even nice enough to market and sell commercially, but that's not the problem. When I'm woodworking, and some part of the project isn't going quite the way I imagined, I can just walk away from it and noodle on a way to fix the problem, or just wait until I feel the inspiration again. Sometimes this takes a day or two, and sometimes this can be months. Part of the reason for this is that I don't really know the best way to do every woodworking task, I'm learning as I go, or maybe I don't have the exact tool for the job, so I need to come up with a solution that works for my skills and the tools that I have.

I have a feeling if I'd spent a few years working in a production level cabinetry shop, this probably wouldn't happen, I'd know about potential problems or mistakes before I made them, since I would have a MUCH greater breadth of knowledge of woodworking.

In conversations with some of my own customers, I've heard more than once about how another builder told them he started their frame 6 months ago and they still haven't heard back from him. As a framebuilder myself, I know it doesn't take 6 months to build a frame, so what happened to that bike? My speculation is that the builder hit a roadblock, something upexpected happened, and then he walked away from that frame. Sometimes this is as simple as a tube or lug that just needs to be replaced, but the builder is unsure of how to proceed either due to lack of experience with a repair, or he's unsure if the repair is really needed, but it could really be anything. In my experience, and despite my best efforts, sometimes something just isn't right, and it needs to be junked or fixed and there's no point in sitting down to comtemplate it, it just needs to happen. I think for those of us who've worked in a production setting, this is a much easier and faster conclusion to arrive at. When I was building a Serotta or Waterford, and something went wrong, I could just walk over, get more tubes/lugs or whatever, and fix it. Plus, if I was unsure, I've got other builders I can consult with to make sure I'm doing the right thing. Really invaluable experience from a building standpoint, but also from the business side of things.

Finally, a plea to my fellow framebuilders, COMMUNICATE! Sometimes, there's nothing you can do to fix the problem, but the least you can do is let the customer know what the status of their bike is. Maybe your painter is way behind, or that tubing shipment got lost at sea, just keep the customer in the loop, and everyone is happier. :beer:

Cheers,
Dave

David Kirk

12-14-2010, 10:39 AM

I think a rating system is a good idea. The only thing that makes me a bit uncomfortable about this thread is that there is always two sides to a story and the builder may not have a chance to share his side. If the builder doesn't know they are being talked about they can't share their side so that people get a balanced perspective.

If the ratings system was hosted at a neutral site (not on Serotta's dime or time) and the builder was notified that they are being rated there then it might have more real value IMO.

Does that make sense?

Dave

slowandsteady

12-14-2010, 10:47 AM

Great experience from start to finish. Answered all my questions via e-mail promptly, gave me a tour of the "factory", worked closely and timely with my fitter (Paul at Signature Cycles), suggested a few changes in the build when reviewing the initial design, delivered on time...no complaints whatsoever on my first custom frame.

The only thing I think might have enhanced the experience is to have spoken with me about tube selection and how it would effect the overall feel of the frame. Honestly though I did not think it needed to much clarification as everyone understood what I was looking for and as such I trusted my fitter and builder to provide accordingly...one of the reasons I used them is exactly that - I trusted in their experience and knowledge to create what I asked them for. Their knowledge is FAR more extensive than mine will ever be. They already had all of my information as far as height, weight, ride characteristics, type of riding I do, what I was looking for as far a ride feel and handling etc. They even knew the wheels and Group I was going to use. Honestly, what could lowly little me tell them that they did not already know or understand about what I wanted.

palincss

12-14-2010, 10:56 AM

Finally, a plea to my fellow framebuilders, COMMUNICATE! Sometimes, there's nothing you can do to fix the problem, but the least you can do is let the customer know what the status of their bike is. Maybe your painter is way behind, or that tubing shipment got lost at sea, just keep the customer in the loop, and everyone is happier. :beer:

That is so true. Knowing what's going on, being kept in the loop, can make a huge difference. If the builder doesn't answer calls and emails, it feels very bad.

Some years ago I ordered a custom stem. Shortly after ordering it, I crashed badly and spent the best part of a year off the bike recuperating. The stem was months late, but it didn't matter: I wasn't riding anyway. But I couldn't reach the builder. He wouldn't answer phone calls, wouldn't answer emails for weeks and months. Even though the delay didn't matter in the slightest, the total lack of communication was very distressing.

Eventually he got back to me and I learned there was a problem with the plating shop. At length, everything was resolved, and by the time I was ready to start riding that bike again the stem had arrived, almost a year late. I wouldn't have minded the time at all had it not been for those months of unanswered phone calls and emails.

dekindy

12-14-2010, 10:59 AM

This sounds like a job for the framebuilders collective, NAHBS, or one of the large, regional shows.

I would suggest a rating by builder by frame type by materials joining type. The best example that I can think of off the top of my head.

Carl Strong - Road - Titanium
Carl Strong - Road - Steel - Tig
Carl Strong - Cross - Steel - Tig
Carl Strong - Cross - Titanium

Kelly Bedford - Road - Steel - Brazed
Kelly Bedford - Road - Steel - Tig
Kelly Bedford - Touring - Steel - Brazed

Overall ratings and separate ratings for design, fit, finish, etc.

Also, ratings for painters would be appropriate since the vast majority of frame builders contract this externally.

Make raters give name, address, and contact information. Allow a rebuttal process for the builder to produce drawings and communications to document their process and tell their side of the story. To be totally professional the framebuilders collective should have a mechanism for rejecting members that fail to maintain a high level of professionalism.

It could also be used as a criteria for new framebuilders entrance to the frame builder's collective or qualfying for NAHBS.

Ralph

12-14-2010, 11:00 AM

Not a good idea.

David Kirk

12-14-2010, 11:07 AM

Finally, a plea to my fellow framebuilders, COMMUNICATE! Sometimes, there's nothing you can do to fix the problem, but the least you can do is let the customer know what the status of their bike is. Maybe your painter is way behind, or that tubing shipment got lost at sea, just keep the customer in the loop, and everyone is happier. :beer:

Cheers,
Dave

Thank you for saying this.

I too hear and read the stories of the guy who went radio silent after the deposit check was cashed or wouldn't return an email because 'they are too busy". Frankly that is crap. No one is too busy to spend 2 minutes to send a quick note. As Dave W says there is no reason to not just get back with the client even if the reply is "I'm too busy right now and you'll hear from me later". It's not only good business but it's just good manners. When the builder doesn't get back to you they are making a choice to set you and your business aside.

When I do business with someone and they don't keep me in the loop I never do biz with them again. Life is too short to get yanked around especially when I have choices that don't waste my most precious asset - time.

Vive la differance.

Dave

e-RICHIE

12-14-2010, 11:17 AM

i do agree with the two daves, but feel compelled to add this atmo -

I too hear and read the stories of the guy who went radio silent after the deposit check was cashed or wouldn't return an email because 'they are too busy". Frankly that is crap. No one is too busy to spend 2 minutes to send a quick note. <cut>

The only thing that makes me a bit uncomfortable about this thread is that there is always two sides to a story and the builder may not have a chance to share his side.

stories often can be just that - stories.

ps

arrange disorder

:) :) :)
:) :) :)
:rolleyes: :) :)

Louis

12-14-2010, 11:20 AM

stories often can be just that - stories.

I spoke to RS just this morning and he told me personally that all the stories out there about him are true...

rugbysecondrow

12-14-2010, 11:21 AM

How come we accept a feedback section for us in the classified section, but for builders we do not?

I enjoy the feedback from the builders and their perspective, but from a consumers perspective, I guess I don't see the foul in providing feedback on your experience with a builder. The funny thing is that many people came out of the woodwork after I decided to go with my builder, but none of this was out in the open, why?

As an equal opportunity guy, I have sung the praises of Kelly Bedford, so it is not like I am not being fair. Also, anybody has an opportunity to respond here. I know Paul Taylor follows the forum sometimes, is a member and has posted here. I posted knowing he might respond.

Let me just reiterate, that I mean no malice. I waited exactly 2 months to write this because I was pissed and wanted to cool off before I responded. What I have found is that even today, people have PM'd their horror stories to me about quite a few builders, but how is this info going to help consumers? I can appreciate Mr. Wages' and Mr. Kirk's perspectives, but I, frankly, am more concerned about the consumer. If I spend thousands of dollars on a product and invest time, effort and energy into a process that is unsuccessful, why not share that with other consumers just the same as I would share (and have shared) the positive experience? As I wrote to somebody else today, I think there is NO accountability for many builders because people don't talk about the negative stuff, that code of silence doesn't hold them acountable. Why?

rugbysecondrow

12-14-2010, 11:27 AM

Pete Serotta

12-14-2010, 11:42 AM

I am biased towards the folks and builders that took the time to share with us here.

rugbysecondrow, David Kirk, Sam I am, Dave Wages among others. Yes I have personal friendship and respect for their skills and reputation. (and have bikes from them or lust of their bikes)

Too often in the "political correctness" of today, things are watered down at times and thus can cause disappointments.

Feel free to ask me anytime about a frame builder and my opinion. It will be my opinion and hopefully correct at times. I have first hand experience from the ones mentioned above and some others. Tom Kellogg, Rich Sachs are also world class. (as are others that are mentioned in framebuilders collective)

Ranking a builder is difficult for it is an evaluation of what the customer wants and what the builder thinks they want or is willing to do.

I am going to take the "Taylor" one for I had concerns when the "SALE" by him started. Price wise it was questionable for TAYLOR or the customer. The pricing was too far off general business in my view. Some can probably even find the note on it (I was not too kind then for the pricing was too cheap for the product No I do no know skills of building but pricing that pretty old.

Lynskey is another ti that I am not a fan off, but would not thing twice and LUST Moots, Spectrum, Ericksen, and yes SEROTTA!! :)

My opinion are not always accurate but I have them and reputation is very important to me, Also feel free to ask about what you are looking for and for what purpose. Others here know more about fitting and specs.

eddief

12-14-2010, 11:44 AM

"i have had a crap experience with a framebuilder, please pm me if you are interested and i will be happy to fill you in."

then you can tell each person your own story via email, give them your phone number and have them call you to get all the info. just a simple copy and paste of your original review to anyone who wants to hear it.

you could even copy said email to the builder so he knows you are in the process of ruining his entire reputation one email at a time. actually, that might make results happen very quickly.

whether or not there is another side to the story, i can just see Paul Taylor calling or emailing Ben Serotta saying that his (Paul) reputation is being hammered on the forum. this will go away quickly. i have no issue with sharing this stuff, but believe this is not the right place.

what about those tax cuts for the rich?

veloduffer

12-14-2010, 11:47 AM

I'm against a feedback thread, as negative feedback lives on the internet forever and moreover, we are talking about someone's livelihood.

Sure a custom frame is a big purchase, but it isn't life & death and getting a bad frame will not put you in the poor house. And it's still cheaper than getting a lemon for a car. :rolleyes:

False or misleading "stories" can be quite damaging and tantamount to libel/slander. And as noted, there are two sides to every story.

I suggest that if anyone wants feedback on a particular builder, he can post the inquiry here but all responses should be done privately through email or PM.

If anyone wants my experience with Richard Sachs or Jim Kish, I'd be happy to reply.

rice rocket

12-14-2010, 11:54 AM

pbjbike

12-14-2010, 12:05 PM

AngiesList.com might be a good model.

buck-50

12-14-2010, 12:36 PM

I've noticed that we as bike lovers will put up with a whole lot more crap from the people who build and sell our bikes than we would from any other artisan or shop.

When was the last time you gave a six pack to a vendor for doing the job they contracted to do in the time allotted? Heck, when was the last time you did that for the guy who replaced the brakes on your car?

I work with a lot of commercial artists at my Job- I'm an art director, so I've got to hire photographers and illustrators all the time.

When photographers aren't responsive (it takes them 2 or 3 days to respond or get me my files) chances are pretty good I'll not use them again. And I'll tell other ADs/CDs that the shooter is unreliable. I don't care that it's their bread and butter, they are messing with MY bread and butter.

I'm willing to put up with a certain level of not being able to properly schedule or work around personal issues, especially with someone young and cheap. (which is why I give Banjo a pass for being late). But at a certain point, you just have to get the work done.

An example- I was working with a photographer on a campaign. Multiple locations, multiple subjects, getting his style was critical as we were halfway through the campaign.

Suddenly, almost without warning, his adoption papers go through and he's a dad. He had a week of warning. He told us it might be an issue, he contacted another photographer to take over the date and when that fizzled, he said "don't worry about it, I'll be there." The Baby came home on Monday. He was out shooting with us on Wednesday. He knew it was critical that he be there.

I'll use him again in a heartbeat.

DRZRM

12-14-2010, 12:55 PM

Re: I am all about freedom of speech

Why do people so often start their critiques with such seemingly contradictory statements?

I for one think this sort of information merits a sticky thread. When businesses don't live up to their responsibility, what should customers do if not share their critiques publicly? Customer feedback is so important to what we know about most small businesses, in teh bike world and outside of it.

I'm sure the custom builders we hear such glowing reviews about (just off the top of my head, Richard Sachs, Sasha White, Dave Kirk, Mike Zanconato, IF) have had problems: delivered bikes late; disagreed about what a proper top tube length for a certain rider should be; etc., but the overwhelming positive word of mouth about these builders would make me weight a small number of negative reviews against many more positive ones. On the other hand, certain custom builders (who I will not name as I have not had personal experience with them) have developed a reputation as being difficult to work with.

Negative opinions are not--and I should not be treated as--privileged information. Sharing your personal information does not have to tell both sides of the story. When I tell you how f**king awesome my IF cross bike is (and it really really is) I don't need to add the fact that maybe other people didn't have such good experiences with them, and you should not take my opinion as gospel. I trust the reader to understand that fact without my stating it...my opinion of a builder is just one person's opinion, positive or negative.

I would ideally expect people to do exactly what the OP did. Take some time to cool off if they have a negative experience with a builder, and then describe his/her experiences in as objective a manner as possible leaving aside personal attack.

The critique that such a conversation may not belong here on the Serotta site may be valid, I'd follow Pete's lead on that. But the idea that such a description may hurt someone's business does not seem relevant. A builder who failed to resolve the outcome so as to avoid this sort of critique seems to have already done that him (or her)self. I'd certainly agree that someone critiquing a builder should send him a note that such a review was being posted so he/she could respond.

Ahneida Ride

12-14-2010, 12:57 PM

When I first arrived here (pre-Kahuna days) many sang the praises of
Serotta. A few did not. I loved that. It just re-reinforced that the accolades
were accurate and only increased my passion to purchase a Serotta.

None of us are perfect. I was very suspicious at that time of the phorums of
other manufactures where negatives never surfaced.

I wonder if all builders would appreciate being evaluated here or for that
matter anywhere. Road bike review does not offer a section for limited
production manufactures.

Actually a review section here for all sort of components and small shops
could be quite interesting.

BengeBoy

12-14-2010, 01:01 PM

Dave Wages

12-14-2010, 01:04 PM

I think you and the two Dave's benefit a great deal from "Good Stories", do you really them qualified as just "Stories"?

I think the great feedback for you and the Dave's is probably well deserved (not having ridden yours or Mr. Wages frames), but why would you think that consumers should not be able to communicate with one another about experiences that might be unsuccessful with builders? I don't want to make this an Us vs. Them thing. The truth is that consumers want great custom bikes, custom bike builders want customers. Why can't we be honest about this and not sugar coat and hide our negative stories? As a customer, I am unconcerned about what the builder thinks about the cross-talk. You are not my audience as much as the other customers are. I want them to have a better experience than me.

Trust I did not do this lightly and I gain nothing by this.

Trust me, Rugby, I totally understand your frustration. I'm equally frustrated when I hear these stories, because I think they do the whole business of framebuilding a disservice.

It is surprising how few angry bad experiences get shared here, but I think it has to do with the moderators trying to keep things from descending into the type of "flaming" chaos that the web is notorious for. I'm all for an independent place where folks can share their experiences, but it' not that simple. What if I just have all my friends write in and rave about their Ellis bikes, regardless of whether they even have one? That, coupled with a tendency of some folks to "pile on", once the poop hits the fan, and sometimes it's hard to have a fair discussion.

In the end, I find that my best advertising is happy customers who had a good experience. In the beginning it's tough, because I don't turn out 100's or bikes a year, so then it's especially important to make sure every one of them is happy. In the end, if I'm not doing my job right, the word will get out, and the market will take care of Ellis Cycles. And not in a good way!

Cheers,
Dave

BillG

12-14-2010, 01:06 PM

Once the fur starts flying (if it ever did), I would wonder if Serotta would really want to host such a forum.

The cool thing about the Interwebs, though, is that anybody is free to go grab the software to set up a forum or review website and have at it.

Agreed. This is a bad idea. Buyers and sellers are all members of the forum and so can defend themselves. Many builders are not, or do not check regularly. As e-richie says quite rightly there are two sides to many story, but here you are likely to only here one. I don't want Serotta to bear the brunt of this.

rugbysecondrow

12-14-2010, 01:08 PM

Trust me, Rugby, I totally understand your frustration. I'm equally frustrated when I hear these stories, because I think they do the whole business of framebuilding a disservice.

It is surprising how few angry bad experiences get shared here, but I think it has to do with the moderators trying to keep things from descending into the type of "flaming" chaos that the web is notorious for. I'm all for an independent place where folks can share their experiences, but it' not that simple. What if I just have all my friends write in and rave about their Ellis bikes, regardless of whether they even have one? That, coupled with a tendency of some folks to "pile on", once the poop hits the fan, and sometimes it's hard to have a fair discussion.

In the end, I find that my best advertising is happy customers who had a good experience. In the beginning it's tough, because I don't turn out 100's or bikes a year, so then it's especially important to make sure every one of them is happy. In the end, if I'm not doing my job right, the word will get out, and the market will take care of Ellis Cycles. And not in a good way!

Cheers,
Dave
For me, and you sound like this type of guy, I just want the builder to take the purchase as seriously as I do, maybe more so.

Thanks for your perspective, I do appreciate it.

93legendti

12-14-2010, 01:10 PM

How about this:

I have bought custom frames from:

Carl Strong and would buy another in an instant.
Serotta and would buy another in an instant.
Tom Kellogg and would buy another in an instant.
Dave Kirk and would buy another in an instant.

Acme Widget Cycles and I would NOT buy another.

veloduffer

12-14-2010, 01:15 PM

If it is your livelihood, maybe you should consider a new business where you can deliver what is promised?

Why do you believe builders should be held to a different standard than any other business? People mortgage their houses to start up restaurants too, is that any less deserved of reviews because it could cost them their home?

I don't proclaim that they should be held to a different standard. My point is that this is the wrong venue to have such a discussion. To attempt at keeping it fair, the opinionator should contact the builder in question to allow him/her a rebuttal. An internet due process?

Everyone has their own "interpretation" of what transpired and fault can often lay on both sides.

Surveys of any type need to be considered relative to the number of reviews. One bad review out of two is 50%, but only 1% if out of 100. Custom bikes are made far and few between, compared to eating out at a restaurant. I don't think there is sufficient volume to start a Zagat's on custom bikes.

A negative effect this could have is for framebuilders to avoid this forum. We have benefitted from time to time with their insights to various bike/fit issues. It would be a great shame to lose that.

jblande

12-14-2010, 01:42 PM

i could understand the serotta forum not wanting to host such a list.

i would find something similar to the amazon customer reviews extremely helpful. i use the us amazon reviews all the time (i don't live in the us), not because i believe that us residents are wiser consumers than the rest of the world, but because the sample size is much larger than any other amazon site and any retail website i have found thus far. i have never had much trouble distinguishing the person who has an axe to grind or just had a one-in-a-million experience. unfortunately i think the number of people participating in such a forum would be too small to be of really great use. however, i would absolutely consult such a forum.

benb

12-14-2010, 01:47 PM

Is there any reason folks can't just submit reviews to the review section on roadbikereviews.com?

It offers everything being discussed (except it might not be moderated enough), and anyone can comment or refute an inflammatory review.

If it's good enough for reviews of Trek, Specialized, and Serotta frames, it's good enough for a frame built by any custom builder.

Someone just has to go write the review.

The review there might not generate as much drama as here.. but new buyers are way likely to look there then here if they're not already here.

SamIAm

12-14-2010, 01:57 PM

Buyers and sellers are all members of the forum and so can defend themselves. Many builders are not, or do not check regularly. As e-richie says quite rightly there are two sides to many story, but here you are likely to only here one. I don't want Serotta to bear the brunt of this.

e-richies wrong, there is one side of the story that counts, the customers. It's really that simple for a good customer oriented business.

oliver1850

12-14-2010, 01:57 PM

The main problem I see with the idea is the potential for someone to post something that had no basis in truth, just to make trouble. There has been at least one problem case in the classifieds who has evidently been banned, and could possibly have an axe to grind with the forum in general. What prevents that person from coming back with a new handle, writing something very negative that was completely untrue, with the result being angry exchanges (and legal action?) between the person falsely accused and Serotta?

Traditionally when you have a problem with a contractor, you tell your friends and family, neighbors, and maybe the Better Business Bureau. If it involves enough money or damages, you hire a lawyer and go to court. Word gets around eventually.

I don't have the knowlege to judge whether providing an internet venue for libellous content could result in legal problems. But I know the cost of defending yourself can be high, even if there's no basis for the action.

SamIAm

12-14-2010, 01:59 PM

The main problem I see with the idea.

I'm not really sure the "idea" here is that we really need a formalized section to rate builders as much as the broader concept that it is ok to discuss a bad experience with a builder, which I fully support.

benb

12-14-2010, 02:00 PM

Forum software is just not right for this.. maybe it works in the current classifieds for a select group of people who are revolving doors of parts but reviews will still "age out" or get harder to find over time.

Someone is going to have to dig in the classifieds section to find anything about me, it's been like 3 years since I did anything on there.

Also the buyer will have to go search 10 different threads as it is inevitable someone is going to start a new thread for company/builder X instead of adding to the existing one.

The only way it can probably work is for some moderator to make a bunch of sticky threads and likely have to moderate submissions and responses to those threads, and not allow users to start their own threads. And that is a big waste of time for whoever gets stuck moderating it.

dekindy

12-14-2010, 02:08 PM

Roadbikereview is a good idea. It is already an accepted forum. Reviewers can add as needed if the item they are reviewing is not already there.

mister

12-14-2010, 02:13 PM

e-richies wrong, there is one side of the story that counts, the customers. It's really that simple for a good customer oriented business.

that's not always the case.
when i was having a frame built, a blog showed up about the builder. guy was talking about how terrible the frame ended up being, how poorly it handled so on and so forth.
since i was having a frame built i happened to ask about that. turns out there was much more to the story than just a customer with a frame they didn't like very much...

as far as the frame i got.
i ride it everyday just about. completely happy with it. great experience.

Ahneida Ride

12-14-2010, 02:14 PM

There is a rumor mill out there, in frame building just like any other profession.

Doctors know who the good Doctors are. Do they "snitch" ?

This information will never be published.

I place limited credence in the rumor mill unless I hear a similar "story"
from unique multiple sources.

SamIAm

12-14-2010, 02:16 PM

rugbysecondrow

12-14-2010, 02:29 PM

that's not always the case.
when i was having a frame built, a blog showed up about the builder. guy was talking about how terrible the frame ended up being, how poorly it handled so on and so forth.
since i was having a frame built i happened to ask about that. turns out there was much more to the story than just a customer with a frame they didn't like very much...

as far as the frame i got.
i ride it everyday just about. completely happy with it. great experience.

I think the system worked. You asked the builder about it, discussed the criticism and moved on from there. That is exactly what I suggested somebody do with Mr. Taylor, discuss this issue with him.

I am not sure how what you are saying and what I did is contrary, in fact they seem to jive well.

We do a pretty good job of being civilized here, we normally are fair minded and treat people as a whole well. Why is it then thought we would become unreasonable when it comes to providing feedback on a purchase or an experience? Should we only share the experiences that have been positive and not negative? What about a mixed bag experience? Is there not something that can be gleaned and improved upon for future customers when working with builders? I am not suggesting a lambasting, but a fair feedback. It seems we have had two other examples of that in this thread...it can work, but it doesn't have to be all roses and bull????.

Archibald

12-14-2010, 03:00 PM

e-richies wrong, there is one side of the story that counts, the customers. It's really that simple for a good customer oriented business.
That's a nice, albeit well worn & naive cliche, but it's so far from the truth it ain't funny. What counts is fairness & honesty on both sides of the transaction. Vendors aren't always fair & honest and neither are customers. It really is that simple.

Smiley

12-14-2010, 03:03 PM

You are missing my point. I'm not saying that customers aren't wrong, of course they are wrong, but a properly handled customer would not have done that. Customers have the voice on the street, not companies. Do whatever it takes to make it right!

in sales for 34 years now and unless u don't want to do business again with this client you ignore them BUT like my pal SamIAm says it, u need to suck it up and make it right, this is the art of comprimise and sales 101.

+100000 on your response

mister

12-14-2010, 03:05 PM

I think the system worked. You asked the builder about it, discussed the criticism and moved on from there. That is exactly what I suggested somebody do with Mr. Taylor, discuss this issue with him.

I am not sure how what you are saying and what I did is contrary, in fact they seem to jive well.

We do a pretty good job of being civilized here, we normally are fair minded and treat people as a whole well. Why is it then thought we would become unreasonable when it comes to providing feedback on a purchase or an experience? Should we only share the experiences that have been positive and not negative? What about a mixed bag experience? Is there not something that can be gleaned and improved upon for future customers when working with builders? I am not suggesting a lambasting, but a fair feedback. It seems we have had two other examples of that in this thread...it can work, but it doesn't have to be all roses and bull????.

i wasn't referring to you.

Archibald

12-14-2010, 03:07 PM

u need to suck it up and make it right, this is the art of comprimise and sales 101.

+100000 on your response
Nope. That may be the deal with face to face transactions, but it ain't now. I know of too many real "if you don't do this I'll run you through the mud on the internet" stories. Companies shouldn't be blackmailed and neither should customers. Again, fair & honest on both sides of the transaction. No company should enable poor customer behavior, not only for his own business but for the business of others.

Nooch

12-14-2010, 03:18 PM

there are plenty of theories on customer service, and I can understand, for one, when you don't have a dedicated service department, when you're a one man operation, that things can get a little hairy at times. The way the story from the OP goes sounds like this went from beyond hairy to neglectful.

You still need to communicate, like others have said, even if it's just to say 'I'll get back to you shortly.' Knowing that you didn't drop dead is a good thing, as is knowing you didn't take the money and run.

Quick Story: There was a small, competing payroll company who actually ran their payroll through the company I work for. One day they stopped running payroll, stopped paying their bill, etc. Turns out their owners had a second company that they were funding from the payroll company, using their clients tax liabilities to make investments (instead of paying their taxes). Many of those clients now run with us, and the story is very similar to the one that the OP posted, delays, no answers, and eventual loss of contact. The fact of the matter is this is the world we live in and as much as we like to try and trust people with our money, we worked hard for it and don't want to get screwed over.

When the day comes that I can afford a custom frame, that will be hard earned money and years of savings. Could I charge something, take a cash advance, take a loan to pay for it? Sure. But it's not a necessity, and never worth putting yourself in debt over. It'll be something that will have my whole heart into it, probably gotten into countless arguments with the lady about (she already hates my cannondale), and if I get screwed on it, you'd better believe I wouldn't be nearly as calm as the OP (granted he took three months to calm down, so...)

I'll leave you with these words of customer service wisdom:

The customer isn't always right, but they are always the customer.
Set reasonable expectations and exceed them. If you know it'll take a month, tell them six weeks, and deliver in a month. Under-Promise, Over-Deliver.

buck-50

12-14-2010, 03:25 PM

Nope. That may be the deal with face to face transactions, but it ain't now. I know of too many real "if you don't do this I'll run you through the mud on the internet" stories. Companies shouldn't be blackmailed and neither should customers. Again, fair & honest on both sides of the transaction. No company should enable poor customer behavior, not only for his own business but for the business of others.
But but but, that's pretty rare that people want to do that.

Most folks dream of getting their custom, they save up so they can use the builder they want, they've got a vision that they are incredibly excited about.

If you are building custom bikes whether it's bike #1 or your waiting list is 6 years long, I'm betting you've figured this about your customer's mindset. no matter how mundane building is to you, to your customer it's something akin to black magic.

And as the builder, you can really control how your customer reacts- keep open and clear communication and you're going to minimize disappointment or resentment. I can tell you that when your builder drops off the face of the earth, you aren't worrying about losing your deposit, you are worried about not seeing your dream come true, you're worried about all the months you've waited already, you're worried that your judgment isn't as good as you thought.

rugbysecondrow

12-14-2010, 03:31 PM

I can tell you that when your builder drops off the face of the earth, you aren't worrying about losing your deposit, you are worried about not seeing your dream come true, you're worried about all the months you've waited already, you're worried that your judgment isn't as good as you thought.

Ding ding ding ding. You get it.

David Kirk

12-14-2010, 03:32 PM

..........................

I'll leave you with these words of customer service wisdom:

The customer isn't always right, but they are always the customer.
Set reasonable expectations and exceed them. If you know it'll take a month, tell them six weeks, and deliver in a month. Under-Promise, Over-Deliver.

Words of wisdom to live and do business by.

Dave

SamIAm

12-14-2010, 03:39 PM

That's a nice, albeit well worn & naive cliche, but it's so far from the truth it ain't funny. What counts is fairness & honesty on both sides of the transaction. Vendors aren't always fair & honest and neither are customers. It really is that simple.

No its tried and true because it works in any business.

I wish I had more competitors like you.

Smiley

12-14-2010, 03:40 PM

No its tried and true because it works in any business.

I wish I had more competitors like you.

now that is a zinger for sure :banana:

oliver1850

12-14-2010, 04:35 PM

I'm not really sure the "idea" here is that we really need a formalized section to rate builders as much as the broader concept that it is ok to discuss a bad experience with a builder, which I fully support.

I support the concept that it's ok to discuss a bad experience. But this forum may not be the best place. In 2007, libel suits were brought against Wikipedia, Google, and others by a politician over postings on their websites.

The cost of defending yourself in any protracted lawsuit can be large. It doesn't matter if you are in the right or not. I don't think it's in the best interests of this forum to allow content for which the host could potentially be sued.

mosca

12-14-2010, 04:45 PM

I support this but I think we need two threads - one for feedback on builders and another to discuss whether or not the first thread is a good idea.

Peter P.

12-14-2010, 04:57 PM

I've had TWO very bad experiences with custom framebuilders, but I would not freely lambaste them on a forum.

What I HAVE done is, when someone inquired about framebuilder "X", I tried to contact them off-forum and relay my story. I think this is the best approach.

While I understand the desires of some to "warn" the rest of us of the poor business practices of some framebuilders, I also recognize it is their livelihood and a scathing report of a framebuilder can irreparably damage a reputation.

I suppose if the builder's behavior is especially egregious then a bad write up could be warranted, but only if the builder is given prior notice and a chance to make amends, first.

The customer DOES lead this dance, in the end.