OT-Cliff Lee is Back with the Phillies

[rdparadise]

Well, the Phillies were being awful quite this past off season. And now, the hammer drops. Bang to the Yankees and Rangers. The Phillies have swooped in and signed the top baseball free agent of the off season. At a steal too. Hey, who says it's all about the money. He left 60 million on the table, and took a lowly $100 million.

Wow, just wow!

Bob

[rugbysecondrow]

Well, the Phillies were being awful quit this past off season. And now, the hammer drops. Bang to the Yankees and Rangers. The Phillies have swooped in and signed the top baseball free agent of the off season. At a steal too. Hey, who says it's all about the money. He left 60 million on the table, and took a lowly $100 million.

Wow, just wow!

Bob

Good pick-up for the Phillies. Now, if they can keep their offense young for another year or two, they might have a shot in 2011.

[veloduffer]

As a lifelong Yankee fan, I'm a bit disappointed but not surprised. I think the Yanks were offering too much anyway, particularly for an older pitcher with a history of back problems, albeit an elite pitcher. The Yanks have some young arms in the farm and there are other good pitchers that have been rumoured to be available (Mark Buehrle, Ricky Nolasco). They won't have a problem being competitive.

I think it was a good move for the Phils but their problems last year was related to offensive production. Losing Werth hasn't helped but did free up salary constraints.

Funny how sometimes baseball has more drama off-season than during the season.

[ti_boi]

:beer:

[Ray]

As I noted in another thread, it guarantees nothing, but DAMN it sure improves the probabilities. I was not surprised that the Giants played even with the Phils in the NLCS and in a series like that anyone can come out ahead. I'm not sure this changes that equation given what the Giants did to Lee in the Series. But you just have to feel good going into a season with a rotation like this. As weak as their offense was at times last year, they were still a scratch and claw series away from winning it last year. This just makes it a little more likely.

Nice to have a player of that caliber WANTING to come to Philly. Enough to leave that kind of money on the table. In fairness, he left $41 million sitting there, not $60 million. But, hell, I'm not sure what kind of lifestyle $160 million supports that $120 doesn't. I guess there are still gradations when you get up into that stratosphere, but I can't imagine what they are. And he seems pretty happy on his farm in Arkansas most of the year. He should be able to keep it well maintained!

-Ray

[dcuper1]

Has anyone heard why he went to the Phillies? What lured him to go there if they had let go of him before and the Yankees were offering more money?

[FL_MarkD]

Has anyone heard why he went to the Phillies? What lured him to go there if they had let go of him before and the Yankees were offering more money?

Maybe his wife didn't enjoy the Yankee 'fans' spitting on her during the playoffs.

Sure glad he is going to Philly. That way the Rays don't have to face him multiple times during the season. We have enough problems with losing several key players.

Mark

[Richard]

Boston v Phillies World Series...

[rice rocket]

Boston v Phillies World Series...
Battle of the unruliest fans? ;)

[drewski]

As a kid I was big fan of the Yanks. But now that I look back
at the legacy of Panzer George I have to say I think he was really
a throwback to the rober barons of yester year. He was committed
to putting a good product on the table, but most folks in South
Bronx have been taken advantage by the New York Yankees.
The team has not been very honorable with the communties
surrounding the stadium, and its really quite sad.

As a lifelong Yankee fan, I'm a bit disappointed but not surprised. I think the Yanks were offering too much anyway, particularly for an older pitcher with a history of back problems, albeit an elite pitcher. The Yanks have some young arms in the farm and there are other good pitchers that have been rumoured to be available (Mark Buehrle, Ricky Nolasco). They won't have a problem being competitive.

I think it was a good move for the Phils but their problems last year was related to offensive production. Losing Werth hasn't helped but did free up salary constraints.

Funny how sometimes baseball has more drama off-season than during the season.

[fiamme red]

As a kid I was big fan of the Yanks. But now that I look back
at the legacy of Panzer George I have to say I think he was really
a throwback to the rober barons of yester year. He was committed
to putting a good product on the table, but most folks in South
Bronx have been taken advantage by the New York Yankees.
The team has not been very honorable with the communties
surrounding the stadium, and its really quite sad.Agree. That's one of the reasons I've gone from being a Yankee fan in the 1990's to being a Yankee hater now.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/259530-new-york-yankees-bad-for-the-bronx-bad-for-baseball

[Ray]

Has anyone heard why he went to the Phillies? What lured him to go there if they had let go of him before and the Yankees were offering more money?
He loved the time he was in Philly in 2009. Loved the guys on the team (who every reporter I've heard talk about 'em consider them about the nicest bunch of star athletes they've ever been around), loved the manager, loved the organization. Wanted to be part of that rotation with a chance to be right there at the end for the next few years. The Yankees are getting pretty old and the Rangers aren't all that well established yet, but the Phillies are well set up for the next few years. And ANY pitcher would rather pitch in the NL than the AL, without that damnable DH thing. Finally, his wife is reported to have loved it here too. And after getting treated the way she did by the Yankee fans, evidently didn't want a lot to do with THAT.

As for the remark about the unruliest fans in baseball, I call foul. The Eagles fans can be terrible and the Flyers fans not far behind. Brutal sports bring out the worst in the fans too. But I've been going to Phillies games for almost 20 years now and, aside from the occasional drunk and the occasional obnoxious Met fan, I've never seen anything objectionable at a Phillies game. Sixers game either, fwiw. And based on the way the Yankee fans treated Lee's family, I'd say the Philly fans (who sold out EVERY home game last season and most of the year before) were a big PLUS for him coming back.

-Ray

[Tom]

Lee
Halladay
Oswalt
Hamels

The Sox did pretty well, getting Crawford and the first baseman from the Padres... especially because Crawford was the Yankees Plan B.

[thegunner]

no offense to any of these teams, but this is getting a bit ridiculous. baseball needs a salary cap, since this revenue sharing crap obviously doesn't work.

[trophyoftexas]

...what can I say, it was fun while it lasted!

[rugbysecondrow]

I am not a Yankees fan, but I think they are missing something with big George no longer being around. Sure, he spent the money, but do you think he would have lost Lee 5 years ago? He was a winner, he wanted nothing but winning, he would stand for nothing but profesionalism and a winning attitude. He was a very flawed man, but I think players like knowing what they are signing into. The Phillies can offer that, the Yankees and the Rangers offer no strong direction.

[rice rocket]

no offense to any of these teams, but this is getting a bit ridiculous. baseball needs a salary cap, since this revenue sharing crap obviously doesn't work.

Why do you feel that way?

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/salaries/teams
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/standings

Compare the two, the most dominant teams aren't consistently the top payers.

Notables:

Padres finished 2nd in the wildcard, and had the second to last payroll (only outdone by Pittsburgh, who's goal is to lose).
Rangers, 27th of 30 in payroll. Enough said.

[thegunner]

Why do you feel that way?

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/salaries/teams
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/standings

Compare the two, the most dominant teams aren't consistently the top payers.

Notables:

Padres finished 2nd in the wildcard, and had the second to last highest payroll (only outdone by Pittsburgh, who's goal is to lose).
Rangers, 27th of 30 in payroll. Enough said.

i'm not entirely talking about parity in standings, but the fact that these contracts are getting ridiculous. what exactly have any of these guys done to deserve 160 million dollars? yes i get that they're entertainers, but the salaries nowadays are absurd.

[Tom]

What did the guys do to deserve the money that allows the checks they sign to clear?

Like Chris Rock said, on the subject of wealth: "Shaq, he's rich. The man that signs Shaq's checks? He's wealthy."

[thegunner]

What did the guys do to deserve the money that allows the checks they sign to clear?

Like Chris Rock said, on the subject of wealth: "Shaq, he's rich. The man that signs Shaq's checks? He's wealthy."

fair point, but like the old adage says... 2 wrongs don't make a right ;)

[nahtnoj]

i'm not entirely talking about parity in standings, but the fact that these contracts are getting ridiculous. what exactly have any of these guys done to deserve 160 million dollars? yes i get that they're entertainers, but the salaries nowadays are absurd.

Jimmie Foxx made 100K or thereabouts in 1930. That is 12 million in todays dollars. There are dozens of MLB players who make more than 12 million a year, so maybe you have a point. But yeah, somebody is signing those checks.

Do you know which team is the most profitable? The Pirates. No joke. Don't hate teams for wanting to win.

[dcuper1]

no offense to any of these teams, but this is getting a bit ridiculous. baseball needs a salary cap, since this revenue sharing crap obviously doesn't work.

I definitely agree. So sad the rays are done now. They will probably be last in the al east since Baltimore will probably continue their surge from last year.

[veloduffer]

i'm not entirely talking about parity in standings, but the fact that these contracts are getting ridiculous. what exactly have any of these guys done to deserve 160 million dollars? yes i get that they're entertainers, but the salaries nowadays are absurd.

We are a capitalist economy and those salaries are what the market will bear. It's up to the owners and players union to agree if they want a cap.

Baseball attendance is pretty strong, even in the economic downturn. And the small market teams get receipts from the Luxury tax, but are not required to reinvest those proceeds back into their baseball operations. Most of the "poor" teams are quite profitable.

[rugbysecondrow]

I definitely agree. So sad the rays are done now. They will probably be last in the al east since Baltimore will probably continue their surge from last year.

The Rays have bigger problems, and it has to do with their fan base...there is none. They have problems filling a football stadium too, just not a classic sports town.

[dcuper1]

The Rays have bigger problems, and it has to do with their fan base...there is none. They have problems filling a football stadium too, just not a classic sports town.

The metro area in Tampa is 4 million people the metro are in New York City is 19 million. Also how many tourists does Tampa get and how many does New York get? How can they ever compete with these bigger markets?

[rugbysecondrow]

The metro area in Tampa is 4 million people the metro are in New York City is 19 million. Also how many tourists does Tampa get and how many does New York get? How can they ever compete with these bigger markets?

Green Bay, Milwaukee, Seattle, St. Louis, Baltimore, Pittsburgh...there are quite a few cities of similar size to Tampa that thrive as pro sports markets, but I think size has little to do with it. I think ( and correct me if I am wrong) that many of the people who reside in Tampa likely have an allegiance to another team, likely wherever they are from prior to living in Tampa. Jacksonville suffers these issues as well, so I am not knocking the city. Some places just aren't good sports cities.

[FL_MarkD]

The Rays have bigger problems, and it has to do with their fan base...there is none. They have problems filling a football stadium too, just not a classic sports town.

As a Rays fan I sure wish there were more of me :) And we will never sell out like NY and Boston, there just are not enough 'fans' here that are Rays fans. Too many misplaced Yankee and Boston fans who moved here. The economy here is worse than many other places. Many jobs linked to tourism/service and also construction. Two of the major areas hit in this recession.

And before y'all get too mighty about the Rays selling tickets. Think about the percentage of our market that goes to games versus the NY market. 45k out of 19 million is a smaller percentage than 22k out of 4 million. And wasn't it the Yankees that didn't sell out one (or more) of their playoff games with the Rangers?

Pitching wins and teams like the Giants, Phillies, and Rays have deep pitching. Can't wait 'til next year. :hello:

Mark

[Elefantino]

That's great that he's back with the Phillies and in the National League!

Now the Giants can light him up during the regular season, too. :banana:

Heeeere, Meat! Heeeere, Meat!

[Richard]

Rugby...interestingly, when George (pretty sure it was his era) was chasing pitchers, Greg Maddux chose Atlanta for less money.

[wc1934]

[QUOTE=Elefantino]That's great that he's back with the Phillies and in the National League!]

He did leave some money on the table by not signing with NY, but I think he viewed the national league as a better fit - no designated hitter. The players union was not happy as they always want the ballplayer to take the highest offer so as to continue to raising the bar for those coming up - give him credit - it is not all about the money.
The Phillies are stacked - can anyone think of a better rotation - just take a look at the walks to strike out ratios -
Boston - Phillies - ok by me.

[Ray]

That's great that he's back with the Phillies and in the National League!

Now the Giants can light him up during the regular season, too. :banana:

Heeeere, Meat! Heeeere, Meat!
I think Bob Costas said it pretty well yesterday. If we still played the regular season for the pennant with no playoffs, the Phillies would be the prohibitive favorites. With playoffs, the Phillies still have the best odds of any other single NL team to get to the WS and probably the best odds of any team in the majors to win it all. BUT, in the age of playoffs, you can take the favorite team and I'll take the field and the favorite team is likely to get knocked off by SOMEone most of the time. There's just too much that can happen in the playoffs. Like Cody Ross can get stupid hot!?!? Without Cody going crazy, the Giants probably don't get to the World Series last year. He did, the rest of the team played well, and they knocked off the Phils, but it was close. In a scratch out a few runs series like the NLCS last year, anything can happen.

The Giants have great pitching. Arguably as good as ANYone in the #1 and #2 spots. The Phils are stronger at #3 and now they're waaaaay stronger at #4, and that should mean a fair amount during the regular season. But in the playoffs, all it does is improve the odds somewhat. Anything can happen. Nothing is guaranteed, etc, etc, etc. But what the Phils found out after 2008, the Yankees have known for about 100 years, and that the Giants will probably be learning soon is that EVERYTHING has to go right to get to and then win the World Series. It happened for them last year and they should be contenders for a while because of their pitching. The Phils took another really impressive step toward improving their odds yesterday, but that's all it does. They're more likely to win another series or two over the next few years than they were on Sunday. There's still a better than even chance that it won't happen in any given year, though. Look at the Indians of 1954, the Dodgers of 1966, the Orioles of 1971, and the Braves of 1997. Clearly the best pitching teams of the past 60 years and none of them were slouches otherwise either. None of them won the World Series.

So nothing is even remotely guaranteed. But its still a REALLY fun time to be a Phillies fan. We've gone to about 10 games per year since 2005 or so. Seemed like we almost ALWAYS got stuck seeing either Joe Blanton or Kyle Kendrick pitch. Saw Lee once in 2009 and Halliday once in 2010 and both of them got SHELLED. THIS year, the odds of catching anyone other than the big 4 are greatly reduced, so it'll be fun going out to the ballpark this year.

-Ray

[cincytri]

Maybe mentioned elsewhere in this thread, but I heard on the radio yesterday that Lee's son spent some time in the hospital in Philly dealing with a serious illness. Maybe that had a small role in the decision? It sounds like Lee really liked Philadelphia and that was the deciding factor over money- not the way it usually goes, right? Phillies look really tough to beat and if they stay away from injuries, they are probably the favorites out of the NL.

[don'TreadOnMe]

Chooch (Carlos Ruiz) is going to have a wild year catching all these beasts.

[Ray]

Chooch (Carlos Ruiz) is going to have a wild year catching all these beasts.
One of the quotes I saw yesterday (I THINK from another catcher, but I might have imagined that) is that Carlos Ruiz now has the best job in America! The most fun and one of the relatively easiest jobs a catcher could ever hope for.

-Ray

[97CSI]

CRuiz has really come into his own playing the toughest position on the field. Think he will become BBoone's equal and also think BB will wish him the best of luck in doing so.

Think I read that '11 ticket sales are up 150% post CL signing.

[Elefantino]

The Giants have great pitching. Arguably as good as ANYone in the #1 and #2 spots. The Phils are stronger at #3 and now they're waaaaay stronger at #4
When you are 28 days older than your team and it wins its first World Series, you have earned the right to say, and I quote John Belushi:

No. :no:ing Way.

Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez and Bumgartner.

:banana: ;)

[Ray]

When you are 28 days older than your team and it wins its first World Series, you have earned the right to say, and I quote John Belushi:

No. :no:ing Way.

Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez and Bumgartner.

:banana: ;)
As a rotation for the next several years, the Giants are the ones. Assuming Sanchez's head grows into his stuff and Bumgartner continues to improve, they're gonna be good for a long time. But the year after winning a WS and a lot of accolades can be tough - ask Hamels and Lidge. Over time, though, I have no doubt the Giant's talent will keep them strong for a good while.

But for the next 2-3 years, I'd rather have the one the Phillies just put together. Even if we assume Timmy and Cain match up evenly with Halliday and Lee, Sanchez isn't as steady as Oswalt and Bumgartner is a couple years away from even KNOWing how good he's gonna be (or not be) and I seriously doubt he'd keep pace with Hamels, who looks like he's gonna be really good for a while. Long relief the Giants are much stronger (but how much long relief do you need with either of these rotations?), short relief both are strong but Lidge is always a question. I hope neither team runs into any serious problems - they both have a very good chance of meeting up in the NLCS again and I'd love to see it. The Giants were my favorite NL team for my whole life until we moved to the Philly area, so I'm never too unhappy to see them do well, so those series are sort of a no lose for me - I'm pulling for the Phils for sure, but there's no hate involved.

But you never can predict ANYthing this far out - who's gonna be next season's Cody Ross and who is he playing for now?

-Ray

[97CSI]

One thing that never changes across the various sports is that the 'best' always have the best work ethic. Halliday and Lee have rubbed off on the rest of the pitching staff for the Phillies and it shows. Hopefully it will rub off on the entire team for the next several years. The key to success in any endeavor is hard work (whew, glad I'm retired - now I can rest) and Halliday and Lee both work as hard as anyone in baseball. Too bad JamieM got hurt. He was another worker-bee (as opposed to wannabe).

[dcuper1]

I don't like these dominating pitchers. When Lee will play against a less stellar pitcher and the Phillies will go up 5-0 or something, it feels like the game is over. Especially, when the losing team is pitching. I guess I just have a problem with baseball where it is the only game where the defense doesn't score. It just hurts when your team is down more than 5 scores and it is pitching. I just loose interest and have to change the channel.

[nahtnoj]

Too bad JamieM got hurt. He was another worker-bee (as opposed to wannabe).

With 266 career wins I think he was a bit more than a worker bee, but I share your appreciation for Jamie Moyer. He was a huge part of Ruiz's maturation as a catcher. I liked going to the games and just watching Moyer in either the dugout or the bullpen - he was always teaching someone something.

[mike p]

I'm not sure he even left that much on the table when you consider the NY tax burden and higher cost of living.

Mike


"In fairness, he left $41 million sitting there, not $60 million. But, hell, I'm not sure what kind of lifestyle $160 million supports that $120 doesn't. I guess there are still gradations when you get up into that stratosphere, but I can't imagine what they are. And he seems pretty happy on his farm in Arkansas most of the year. He should be able to keep it well maintained!"

-Ray

[nahtnoj]

[QUOTE=mike p]I'm not sure he even left that much on the table when you consider the NY tax burden and higher cost of living.

I'll give you the NYC cost of living (sort of, because Cliff isn't going to sell his farm in Arkansas and move to a condo on Park Avenue) but have you ever worked, lived, or paid taxes in Philadelphia? :D

[97CSI]

I'll give you the NYC cost of living (sort of, because Cliff isn't going to sell his farm in Arkansas and move to a condo on Park Avenue) but have you ever worked, lived, or paid taxes in Philadelphia? :DStill 5.8%, or has it gone up. We moved to Media to 'escape', but the political clowns then started making up pay for the stadiums in Philadelphia as we are in a contiguous county. :crap: Need to move one more county west to get rid of the "Phila effect".

Go Phillies (as long as I don't have to pay for them).

[flickwet]

fair point, but like the old adage says... 2 wrongs don't make a right ;)
You're worth whatever someone is willing to pay you, it may make you rich or wealthy but it doesn't make you wrong.

[flickwet]

now that I think about it, Loan Sharks, slum lords, prostitutes, District attorneys in Vail, people named Erzinger, Floyd Landis...I was wrong in my previous post. Sorry

[Tom]

now that I think about it, Loan Sharks, slum lords, prostitutes, District attorneys in Vail, people named Erzinger, Floyd Landis...I was wrong in my previous post. Sorry

Hey. Don't lump prostitutes in with the DA from Vail. That's not fair to the prostitutes.

[Ray]

Think I read that '11 ticket sales are up 150% post CL signing.
I'm not sure how much higher they could get, considering that every game last year and all but one or two the year before were sell-outs. But I'm sure the season ticket plans are selling. We just got the email about season ticket availability this morning and I just got through reserving one of the 17 game plans. I already had bought a six-game set and there are a few overlapping games that we'll have to sell, so we should see about 20 this year, which is about double what we usually do. Should be fun. It should be a really fun year to go to the ballpark, regardless of what they end up doing in the post-season.

-Ray

[bzbvh5]

...what can I say, it was fun while it lasted!

Fans in Texas never really expected him to stay. At least he left for some other reason than money. Rangers have a hole to fill for sure, but it was nice to see them in the World Series once.