eeny meeny miny moe pick a Groupo and never woe

[bobswire]

When Sram came on the scene with their Double tap road group a couple of years ago word was they might dip into Shimano sales but Campagnolo will keep its loyal following.

Now that Liquigas has gone over to Sram ( http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/liquigas-training-in-sardinia ) this could be the final straw of Campagnolos demise from the pro ranks.
Some of us "old timers" may remain loyal but new and up and comers have
no allegiance or experience and may see Sram or Shimano as the must have group with Campagnolo filling a "niche designer" role?

What say you?

BTW I love my Campy.

[EDS]

I doubt Liguigas switching component manufacturers means anything in terms of the long term success of Campy, Shimano or SRAM.

[dekindy]

I saw Record and Super Record cassettes that listed for $355 and $425. I hear chains are really expensive also. I know nothing about Campy. Do they last forever? Their pricing and lack of OEM marketing and with SRAM's entry they may be doomed.

[Dave]

You need to look at the total number of teams and how many use each brand. Teams switch brands fairly often. It's all about money and who offers a team the best deal.

I assume that all of the parts are given to the teams as a form of advertising. The amount given away doesn't amount to much.

I doubt many people make a decision on what to buy, based on what pro teams use. Most people go into a shop and buy what's offered, which is 99% SRAM/Shimano at all the shops I've gone into.

Here's a perfect example:

I saw Record and Super Record cassettes that listed for $355 and $425. I hear chains are really expensive also. I know nothing about Campy. Do they last forever? I don't see how they could ever have a large market share and with SRAM's entry may be doomed.

The fact is that you can buy comparable Campy groupos for about the same price as the other brands, if you know where to shop. The resale value of used Campy parts is so high that I've made the switch from 8-9-10-11 speed at relatively low cost. When I sell some parts on E-bay, I offer a reasonable buy-it-now price, just so some dummy doesn't over-pay. Some of my auctions close in 15 minutes.

[benb]

How is the resale on $300+ cassettes that you've worn out? :confused:

Not that everyone needs Record level stuff.. and not that SRAM is much less insane on the high end.

[FlashUNC]

I think there's room in the market for all 3.

Campy's made the concerted choice not to go after the OEM market, which SRAM and Shimano are clearly battling it out over.

Longer term does Campy have to worry about losing customers as their buyer-base ages? Perhaps, but they do get younger converts like me who, over time, are going to go from buying Veloce and Centaur to Record and Super Record.

I don't use the pro racing scene as any indicator of a bike company's success. If that were the case, people might think Serotta would not be around these days.

[sg8357]

Campy has not been providing the parts to keep old stuff current or change the new stuff to work with the old, removing a major attraction of Campy for me.
example when 10s was out you could get parts to make the then current
shifters 9s, a good transition. Being able to 10s a current Chorus shifter
would allow you to skip the 11s cul de sac, and maintain compatibility
with lots existing 10s Campy, Shimano and SRAM kit.

The changing of the BB from UltraTorque to Super with out tools to work on it just looks bush league.
The what shifter has what mech, too many variations,
which shifter can shift how many in what direction ?

[norcalbiker]

I have been a campy user since they came out with 8 speed. I am now using 10 and 11 speed campy records on both of my bike. Let me also say that Ive converted 4 of my buddy rider to campy chorus and records and they swear that they will never go back to the dark sides.
We did not buy campy because of race teams. We bought campy because of thei quality. Not to mention that they are eyetalian.
I will keep using campy until they no longer available.

[Ti Designs]

I doubt many people make a decision on what to buy, based on what pro teams use.

If you study trends in advertising and what happens with market share as a result, you may change your mind. Humans are programmable.

[bobswire]

All you are doing is confirming what "we/I" already know, we are Campy diehards, I'm addressing Campys future in the long run in converting the "OEM" rider to Campy.
Sram has taken over the "other" groupo away from Campy , IMO.
It wasn't too long ago there were a lot of cyclocross riders across the country using Campy now Sram has overtaken them.

Losing the preeminent Italian racing team to Sram does not bode well for Campy no matter how they lost it. IMO

[Dave]

How is the resale on $300+ cassettes that you've worn out? :confused:

Not that everyone needs Record level stuff.. and not that SRAM is much less insane on the high end.

Kind of a dumb question, but I have sold moderately used 10 speed cassettes for a decent price. As long as the cassette will work with a new chain, it's not overly worn. I resell parts like cranks, shifters, brakes and derailleurs. They really do draw high prices. To make the change to 11 speed I only needed to sell the old shifters, then buy new shifters, a cassette and chain. All other parts could be reused.

I buy lower level cassettes. With 11 speed, I paid about $100 for Chorus cassettes, which is as low as those go. With 10 speed, you can go down to Veloce and probably get those for $40. I bought nine 11 speed chains for about $38 each. The chains last longer than any other brand, so the cost to use them is not that high.

The higher level cassettes with 4-6 Ti cogs not only cost a lot more, the Ti cogs will last half as long, at best.

[Dave]

If you study trends in advertising and what happens with market share as a result, you may change your mind. Humans are programmable.

It won't make any difference since most shops don't carry Campy. Those dummies will buy whatever you put in front of them.

[oliver1850]

Campy has not been providing the parts to keep old stuff current or change the new stuff to work with the old, removing a major attraction of Campy for me.
example when 10s was out you could get parts to make the then current
shifters 9s, a good transition. Being able to 10s a current Chorus shifter
would allow you to skip the 11s cul de sac, and maintain compatibility
with lots existing 10s Campy, Shimano and SRAM kit.

The changing of the BB from UltraTorque to Super with out tools to work on it just looks bush league.
The what shifter has what mech, too many variations,
which shifter can shift how many in what direction ?


Can you get parts to rebuild Shimano STI at all, much less convert a nine speed shifter to ten? You could, and still can do that with Campy 9/10. Yes it would be nice to convert the full range of ergo levers to everything from 8-11. At some point cross compatibility becomes more trouble than it's worth, and the designers move on. I'm not saying planned obsolescence isn't a factor in this process, but no more at Campagnolo than it is for other companies. I think in fact that Campy has been better in this regard than its competitors.


To address the original question: I would guess SRAM has taken much more sales from Shimano than from Campy. Any industry types have data?

[Pete Serotta]

as well as pluses and negatives.

His and OldPotatoe and excellent points of information and recommendations. (yeah more bias on me today,,,,,, :beer:


PETE

[ColnagoLightxx]

I have a bike with 2008 Record and I took it in recently to have everything serviced to the smallest detail as I like to have done after a hard riding season. The LBS I go to primarily attracts SRAM/Shimano users but they do carry some Campy in there. There was an older gentleman probably in his 60's who when he saw my bike, he said, "Wow, you really don't seem Campy that much anymore.." which is kind of a bummer. Yes, you might pay more initially but the quality you are paying for is unbelievable. I probably have 14-16k on my Record 10 speed group and it runs amazingly well still! I use Chorus cassettes because of the durability. SRAM/Shimano resale is horrible..it doesn't last as long and isn't made nearly as well, everyone knows Italian merchandise is made better. We have a giant custom L-shaped handmade leather couch with a matching love seat and foot stool and the warranty on it is amazing and if something were to happen such as a thread coming out, the company sends someone over to hand stitch and fix whatever the problem is..Personally I enjoy Shimano, I rode a bike with SRAM on it and it shifts well and works okay but personally, it feels cheap to me IMHO. Even though they are not going to be using Campy anymore, just watch, more teams will switch to it or switch back. Look how fast Schleck dropped SRAM..just wait, Campy will not leave and it will only get better.

[97CSI]

I saw Record and Super Record cassettes that listed for $355 and $425. I hear chains are really expensive also. I know nothing about Campy. Do they last forever? Their pricing and lack of OEM marketing and with SRAM's entry they may be doomed.Am still trying to figure out why anyone other than a racer making a living at doing so would ride with a $355 or $425 cassette with Ti cogs that are known to wear out quickly. How much does the Shimano or SRAM Ti cog cassette cost? If they made them, they would be in the same ballpark, price-wise. Hardly any difference in the real-world price amongst the three groups when comparably set up. Am sure they will all still be here for us in another 20 years.

[johnnymossville]

The SRAM Red cassette is made of billet steel. It's not the smoothest running cassette out there, but it lasts a heck of a long time, at least on my bike.

[EDS]

I have a bike with 2008 Record and I took it in recently to have everything serviced to the smallest detail as I like to have done after a hard riding season. The LBS I go to primarily attracts SRAM/Shimano users but they do carry some Campy in there. There was an older gentleman probably in his 60's who when he saw my bike, he said, "Wow, you really don't seem Campy that much anymore.." which is kind of a bummer. Yes, you might pay more initially but the quality you are paying for is unbelievable. I probably have 14-16k on my Record 10 speed group and it runs amazingly well still! I use Chorus cassettes because of the durability. SRAM/Shimano resale is horrible..it doesn't last as long and isn't made nearly as well, everyone knows Italian merchandise is made better. We have a giant custom L-shaped handmade leather couch with a matching love seat and foot stool and the warranty on it is amazing and if something were to happen such as a thread coming out, the company sends someone over to hand stitch and fix whatever the problem is..Personally I enjoy Shimano, I rode a bike with SRAM on it and it shifts well and works okay but personally, it feels cheap to me IMHO. Even though they are not going to be using Campy anymore, just watch, more teams will switch to it or switch back. Look how fast Schleck dropped SRAM..just wait, Campy will not leave and it will only get better.

I have over 17k miles on SRAM rival and it still works great! Only thing that has been replaced over the years is the cassette, chain, cables and brake pads.

Fortunately, if something goes wrong, I can buy parts and rebuild the SRAM stuff.

[ColnagoLightxx]

That's awesome! Yeah I have a friend who has a group and has had already 2 warranty replacements and problems with his, maybe that's just him. I personally think IMO that Campy is made better, more durable and the resale is obviously better.

[Dave]

Shop owners tend to report many more warranty replacements with SRAM. It's great that they have good warranty service, but better to never have to use it. Campy warranty service is notoriously bad, but as long as I never use it, then I don't care.

If your SRAM shifter internal break, you can't get repair parts. Even Campy's offerings have declined with the new ultrashift and even newer powershift ergos. If the internal break, you must buy a major assembly that includes everything but the band clamp, brake lever and brake hood. I bought one of those assemblies for about $110, to repair a wreck damaged Record ultrashift lever. I broke the ergo body and it's not sold separately. I now have some left-over spare parts, but I used the index disc to convert my Centaur shifters to 11 speed.

[oldpotatoe]

When Sram came on the scene with their Double tap road group a couple of years ago word was they might dip into Shimano sales but Campagnolo will keep its loyal following.

Now that Liquigas has gone over to Sram ( http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/liquigas-training-in-sardinia ) this could be the final straw of Campagnolos demise from the pro ranks.
Some of us "old timers" may remain loyal but new and up and comers have
no allegiance or experience and may see Sram or Shimano as the must have group with Campagnolo filling a "niche designer" role?

What say you?

BTW I love my Campy.

So, last years TdF..a little quiz..how many teams were sponsored by Campagnolo, how many with shimano, how many with sram.

Yep, the most were Campagnolo, by a lot. If Liquidgas wants to be 'schleked', that's up to them. sram has DEEP pockets, but my distant 3rd choice of bike 'stuff'. It's all about money and more wrenching to keep the stuff working, PLUS I'll bet more c-dales were OEM with sr(p)am.

[oldpotatoe]

I saw Record and Super Record cassettes that listed for $355 and $425. I hear chains are really expensive also. I know nothing about Campy. Do they last forever? Their pricing and lack of OEM marketing and with SRAM's entry they may be doomed.

Dooomed, that's funny. sram, and even according to Valentino, 'market' an average product really well. 'Americans market really well', says Valentino. I'll bet sram has put the hurt on shimano far worse than Campagnolo, for the OEM reason.

OBTW look at a 7900 and red chains..and the problems with red cogsets and chains, and the number of broken shifters for sram and the number of red groups that come with force FD and shimano chains.

Doomed....why don't you know anything about Campagnolo??

[oldpotatoe]

as well as pluses and negatives.

His and OldPotatoe and excellent points of information and recommendations. (yeah more bias on me today,,,,,, :beer:


PETE

Thanks for the nice words and as a bike shop owner I sell lots of Campagnolo, some shimano and almost no sram(BBs since they go south so fast). Some sram MTB cogsets cus they are cheap. If somebody has sram cogset that's toasted(imagine that!!) I'LL endeavor to sell them a shimano cogset..no sram chains.. KMC for 8s, shimano for 9s, Campagnolo, shimano, KMC for 10s.

sram is all about marketing, red frogs, show, no go. Last time I commented on 'red' cogsets I got a call from sram..NOT A RED cogset..or some such blather(??).

If ya like it, then use it...no sweat but I would rather walk than have anything from the red frog boys on my bicycle.

My personal view of the wacky bike market.

AND in spite of the few warts this forum has(you know who you ARE!), I think most members are intelligent and discerning and most use Campagnolo. I think that speaks volumes about what Campagnolo is.

Not everybody has a Rolex either(altho I do)....

[oldpotatoe]

I have over 17k miles on SRAM rival and it still works great! Only thing that has been replaced over the years is the cassette, chain, cables and brake pads.

Fortunately, if something goes wrong, I can buy parts and rebuild the SRAM stuff.

Not the levers. Even tho they can be taken apart, they are as throwaway as shimano

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=Dave]Shop owners tend to report many more warranty replacements with SRAM. It's great that they have good warranty service, but better to never have to use it. Campy warranty service is notoriously bad, but as long as I never use it, then I don't care.

If your SRAM shifter internal break, you can't get repair parts. Even Campy's offerings have declined with the new ultrashift and even newer powershift ergos. If the internal break, you must buy a major assembly that includes everything but the band clamp, brake lever and brake hood. I bought one of those assemblies for about $110, to repair a wreck damaged Record ultrashift lever. I broke the ergo body and it's not sold separately. I now have some left-over spare parts, but I used the index disc to convert my Centaur shifters to 11 speed.[/QUOTE


I have ERGO, UT bodies, BTW-

[steampunk]

campy will always have its loyal followers, the romantics, you know who you are. selecting campy is partly an emotional choice.

when i first got a road bike 15+ years ago i got shimano because it was what i could afford. even as i moved up the food chain to dura-ace, i still looked with longing (more like lust) at campy bits. when i could i made the switch, and that was it. no more component lust, even if i at first "connected" with a mere Centaur group.

[WickedWheels]

Campy will not die completely... after all, Sampson and Sunrace are selling drive-train parts

However...

Their market share will become minuscule unless they step it up with LBS support and OEM.

At my shop we hardly ever get questions about Campy. It only comes from a few hardcore older roadies and young guys that like the "cool" factor.

I ride Campy and will not stock anything aside from a few repair cassettes and chains because their LBS support is atrocious. Last year they offered their groups to LBS's for 20% below wholesale so that bike shops can turn these groups into test ride parts and in exchange they were going to list shops on their site as "Test Ride 11spd Center". I really wanted to participate, but found the same groups selling from a UK online retailer for less than what my cost would be with a 20% discount. I called Campy to ask them if I could purchase these groups from the UK retailer and be considered a test ride center and was told that I cannot. A few months later I read about the 2011 redesign of the groups. So basically, they got the heads up on the groups and were using this tactic to move some product before it got redesigned. Shady!!!

Shimano, or at least their sales rep, tries to give me a heads up on anything that's being redesigned before I make an ordering mistake. He screwed up on the R310 shoes, but apologized profusely and apparently made a big stink over the introduction of the R315's at their sales meeting. And this is after comp'ing us some of these shoes a year earlier.

SRAM, as much as I don't like the feel of their drive-trains, has fantastic customer service... both to shops and customers. I would say it's probably some of the best I've experienced in my 15+ years in this industry. They're buying the right companies and positioning themselves to be an industry leader in the long-term. The mechanical things will work themselves out over time, but if their OEM penetration and customer service will continue as they have been they will thrive.

[bike22]

this thread makes me want to try campag.

[etu]

I have been a Campy user from the start. 2 of my bikes have record/chorus 10spd components. My newest bike has SRAM Force. Embarrassed to say that the SRAM shifting feels pretty good. I'll have to see about long term durability, but I have to confess my loyalty to Campy is wavering... :o
Also I hate the idea of having to go to 11spd.

[fourflys]

this thread makes me want to try campag.

do it! I was a Shimano guy because that's what came on the bikes I had... when I built my bike a couple years ago, I put Chorus 11 on it and I LOVE it! I have no idea how it stacks up otherwise, but it shifts SMOOOOTH and I love the thumb lever versus two shift levers (shimano) or double-tap... I have test ridden SRAM on a Trek and just didn't care for it...

BTW- ONLY Shimano on my MTB...

[fourflys]

Also I hate the idea of having to go to 11spd.

I have Chorus 10 on my cross bike and Chorus 11 on my road... for me the 11 ergos win hands down... no question... if you just want the 11 ergos, get a set of the Centaur levers...

[scrubadub]

My shop is most familiar with and recommends Campy. I love that they can rebuild the shifters and make them effectively brand new again.

That said, my tri bike is going to have SRAM. They seem to be the only company that are paying attention to tri shifters (short of jumping to Di2). I can't tell what Campy is planning in terms of bar end shifters but my guess is they're just waiting for their electric group.

I really wish Campy hadn't gone to 11 though, I was completely happy with 10.

[RkyMtn]

I like to think I am a very open minded person. I have tried all three manufacturer offerings and here is my opinion on the road bike group:

Shimano: I can't stand the ergonomics of the hood and the long throws for shifting. The trim on the front derailleur is a deal breaker. No rebuilding, have to fully replace. Performance degrades over time.

(Di2 is REALLY interesting!! I have my bike fitter testing these and I am waiting to see how it lasts and wears. I seriously consider putting this on a bike, but the price point is way beyond my tolerance for now.)

SRAM: I just don't like the shifting mechanism. Too long a throw for upshifting. Poor front derailleur trim. the Frequency of failures in the field is holding me off. No rebuilding. Full replacement if there is a problem with the shifting.

Campy: The best shifting and front derailleur trim. Reliable (you get what you pay for here, and how much is it worth not to be stranded on a road 25 miles from home?) Rebuilding is a blessing as I just rebuilt a 2006 Centaur alloy 10spd shifter for $80 including labor. I bought Record 11spd shifters and had them converted to 10 speed for $100. The performance gets better with usage. Love the ergonomics. You can find great deals (Centaur 10 speed 2011 group for $899) if you are patient and hunt them down. I put the new SR group on my Meivici, and will replace the uber $ cassette with and all steel one when it goes and a chorus chain. I am running the $45 Ti Nitride KMC chain on my 10 speed bikes and it is super.

I bet Andy Schleck wished he was running Campy on the Tourmalet (not that it would have made a difference, as Alberto is just much better.)

[rice rocket]

I saw a blog post about an Ultegra version of the Di2 on it's way.

Edit: http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-53428804.html

[97CSI]

Biggest problem with Campagnolo is that they do not do a good job of supporting the LBSs in NA, making local support problematic compared to the competition. On the positive side, you can purchase new on-line for about the same price as the competition (which leaves your LBS out in the cold). Too bad and Campy needs to address this for those who want to support their LBS.

I really wish Campy hadn't gone to 11 though, I was completely happy with 10.Doesn't really matter as long as they continue to support the 10-speed group, which they likely will do for the next 20 years, or so.

[rickbb]

For a tyro wrench, concrete Campy compatibility information seemed hard to find and thus daunting, although my first mixed Campy build worked out OK (but I could have worn out an "Advice to the Clueless Wrencher" thread here in the process). "Ultra" and "Quick" are poor choices for feature/function terms v Shimano numbering for the likes of me and a marketing mistake. FD quality and setup was a real plus, for sure, and I liked the shifters.
.
The reasons I will go back to Campy, however, despite a semi-established Shimano standard among my bikes, would also include looks. I really dislike the recent overkill-looking crank design of Shimano/SRAM v the Campy design, particularly on steel and thinner-tubed bikes.

[Dave]

With Campy 10 there is no cross compatibility issue. Any of it can be mixed and matched as desired. Ultra was a teflon coating on the indexing gear on Record shifters. QS was a reduction if the dead travel on the left finger lever and had no effect on compatibility.

[fjaws]

The trim on the front derailleur is a deal breaker.

What's wrong with the Shimano trim? Perhaps not as good as Campy, but adjusted properly does what it's intended to do. Never had any problems with rubbing on Dura-Ace or Ultegra.

[garysol1]

My .02 from a different point of view. I was a die hard Shimano user who made the switch to Campy SR11 earlier this season. I really loved the ergo's of the hoods and.......... well....... that was about it. It shifted just fine but really no better or worse than my Shimano D/A and in fact for me I felt I was more precise down shifting when using Shimano's longer brake lever than when using the shorter Campy paddle. I do like the thumb shifter though and prefer it to the D/A paddle.
The Campy SR brakes were just brilliant but then again so are my D/A brakes.
So long story short I recently sold my SR11 and returned to 7900 and I could not be happier.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=97CSI]Biggest problem with Campagnolo is that they do not do a good job of supporting the LBSs in NA, making local support problematic compared to the competition. On the positive side, you can purchase new on-line for about the same price as the competition (which leaves your LBS out in the cold). Too bad and Campy needs to address this for those who want to support their LBS.

Don't get this, support for the LBS. There are numerous distributors that sell Campagnolo, the same ones that sell shimano and sram. Bike shops are the ones being lazy, IMO. It's not hard to get to 'know' Campagnolo, stock the consumables, become a Campagnolo Pro Shop.The small bits, cogsets, chains are expensive when compared to the others but so is a 10s XTR or 7900 chain or a sram red chain(my neighbor shop sells red chains for 90 bucks!!).

[TMB]

People on bike forums have been predicting the imminent demise of Apple Computer for a long time too.

[sg8357]

What's wrong with the Shimano trim? Perhaps not as good as Campy, but adjusted properly does what it's intended to do. Never had any problems with rubbing on Dura-Ace or Ultegra.

Campy doesn't have trim, they have friction/ratchet front shifter, so you can
use a non-campy front mech and non standard chainring combos.
Good for tourists and I-Bobs. A Campy shifter will work with a Simplex
flat plate front mech and a TA Provis 5 crank. Or a Zephyr with a
Shimano mtn bike front mech. Fit the drive train to the rider.

[oldpotatoe]

Campy will not die completely... after all, Sampson and Sunrace are selling drive-train parts

However...

Their market share will become minuscule unless they step it up with LBS support and OEM.

At my shop we hardly ever get questions about Campy. It only comes from a few hardcore older roadies and young guys that like the "cool" factor.

I ride Campy and will not stock anything aside from a few repair cassettes and chains because their LBS support is atrocious. Last year they offered their groups to LBS's for 20% below wholesale so that bike shops can turn these groups into test ride parts and in exchange they were going to list shops on their site as "Test Ride 11spd Center". I really wanted to participate, but found the same groups selling from a UK online retailer for less than what my cost would be with a 20% discount. I called Campy to ask them if I could purchase these groups from the UK retailer and be considered a test ride center and was told that I cannot. A few months later I read about the 2011 redesign of the groups. So basically, they got the heads up on the groups and were using this tactic to move some product before it got redesigned. Shady!!!

Shimano, or at least their sales rep, tries to give me a heads up on anything that's being redesigned before I make an ordering mistake. He screwed up on the R310 shoes, but apologized profusely and apparently made a big stink over the introduction of the R315's at their sales meeting. And this is after comp'ing us some of these shoes a year earlier.

SRAM, as much as I don't like the feel of their drive-trains, has fantastic customer service... both to shops and customers. I would say it's probably some of the best I've experienced in my 15+ years in this industry. They're buying the right companies and positioning themselves to be an industry leader in the long-term. The mechanical things will work themselves out over time, but if their OEM penetration and customer service will continue as they have been they will thrive.


I hear ya brother. I see the UK discounted Campagnolo stuff almost everyday. I build many bikes with stuff sourced from these places. I talked tothe Campagnolo NA boys and Interbike and they mentioned taking a ahrd look at distribution in Europe, trying to close some of the 'gray' channels but I think Campagnolo Italy is happy sellin' their stuff, regardless of where it goes. I'll bet if I showed up with a suitcase full of Euros(or $), I could get gruppos, as many as I could pay for, for a really good price...and I doubt they would care where they went.

BUT having said that, and in a shop that does mostly service, my shop is the recognized Campagnolo Pro Shop here(in spite of 2 other 'Pro' shops). One of the other's have actually sent Capagnolo equipped customers to me..strange but I'll take it!

I like that distinction, stock lots of Campagnolo small bits(like a pawl spring, yesterday)...don't mind being small and NOT pumping lots of s-stuff out the door.

[Dave]

The Campy front shifters (pre2009) have 12 distinct indexing clicks, but most double FDs only use 3-4 of those clicks to cover the full range of travel. With 3 clicks, all you have is a big ring position, a middle trim position and the small chainring position. Triple FDs require 7 clicks. The rest are never used.

The latest ultrashift levers have just enough clicks to operate a triple FD (now 6 instead of 7). Double FDs only need 3 clicks. There is no trim position from the big ring (and none is needed). The only trimming is done with 1-2 clicks of the finger lever, from the little ring. Some people used 4 clicks for a double FD, which then permits the cage to go a little further to the right and creates the need for a trim click of the thumb button from the big ring position.

[bobswire]

My initial reason for this thread was to generate responses towards Campagnolo future and how young riders view Campy.
I feel Sram has grabbed the headlines in becoming that "other" group besides Shimano.
Like it or not young folks are swayed by marketing and what "pro" teams use,especially ones that are tops in the Peloton like Liquigas.
I didn't want this to become another "My campy is better than your Shimano/Sram thread"
For the record I use and prefer Campy because of the feel (ergo) and looks besides being hands on doing my own build and repairs whether that be bike, house or car.
In fact I replaced all the rotors and brake pads on my Ford Explorer yesterday thus saving me $800 from the estimates Midas and Ford gave me. http://forums.competitor.com/topic/5957
So no one has to sell me or folks like Old Potatoe on Campy It's the young'uns that Campy needs to reach. IMO

[97CSI]

Bike shops are the ones being lazy, IMO.In my particular case, I can't argue that. LBS is owned by 'absentee' (as in rarely in the shop) owners and they only stock what supports the 'big box bikes' (Trek, etc.) that they sell. Both the mechanics are excellent and 'old school' (i.e. Campy preferred), but they don't own the place so it is a Shimano/SRAM house.

[bobswire]

In my particular case, I can't argue that. LBS is owned by 'absentee' (as in rarely in the shop) owners and they only stock what supports the 'big box bikes' (Trek, etc.) that they sell. Both the mechanics are excellent and 'old school' (i.e. Campy preferred), but they don't own the place so it is a Shimano/SRAM house.


Good point, no shop is more old school than the "Bike Nook" in San Francisco when if come to road bikes. http://bikenook.com/cantgettotheshop.html
Like most shops they carry more Shimano components than Campy if for no other reason that is what the average customer brings in for repairs or asks for when purchasing.
Whereas Old Potatoe's shop fills a need and is probably successful since by Old Potatoes own words they specialize in Campy.

[fourflys]

I hear ya brother. I see the UK discounted Campagnolo stuff almost everyday. I build many bikes with stuff sourced from these places. .

I hope none of your customers ever need warranty work.... I have first hand experience with Campy NA asking for a receipt when I had a FD clamp issue this summer....

[oldpotatoe]

I hope none of your customers ever need warranty work.... I have first hand experience with Campy NA asking for a receipt when I had a FD clamp issue this summer....

On occasion and those that buy from offshore know of the warranty problems some of these places present. Not an issue for them. Of no consequence to me since I didn't sell it. If it comes from an authorized Campagnolo reseller, I'll take care of them since I'm a Campagnolo Pro Shop..do need a receipt tho.

Had one gent have a FD and after checking the wee bar code, was denied warranty.

[Henno]

"Younger" (sorta, early 30s) guy here.

I've only been on a Campag equipped bike for about an hour, but absolutely loved the performance, ergonomics and looks. Not a huge fan of Shimano, so next build will most likely be Sram. Couple of things keep me away from Campag:
- Horrible customer service. Sram is notably easy to deal with, and will replace anything that malfunctioned.
- Tools. $120 for a chain tool!? Campag really takes the cake in overpriced accessories, seems like they really like to bleed their followers.I like to wrench at home, so have most of the tools I need for Shimano/Sram.
- Huge price increases. At least here in the US, prices seem to be pretty erratic over the last years. I'm sure if they could pull it off in Europe that'd do it there too.
- Wheels. If I'm tying up $3K (nice set of carbon tubs race wheels and nice training set), I'd like to move them around other bikes, lend to and borrow from friends, etc. No problem between shimano and sram, no dice with Campag. This is the main deal breaker for me.
- Weight, Sram Red/Force (or even Rival) is quite affordable. Way cheaper to bring the total weight of the bike down.

That's about it I guess. I'll admit that Campag has more emotional appeal, but Sram just makes way more damn sense.

Feel free to correct me on any wrong assumptions on my part.

[WickedWheels]

I'm glad that you're able to fill that Campy niche. I would imagine that's a niche that could support only a handful of shops throughout the country. I used to rep for a parts distributor in NJ, selling to almost every shop there and can count on one hand the number of Campy-specialty shops.

The shop where I'm at currently does a lot of high-end, but mostly to new riders and triathletes. Campy is not in the game with these guys and we don't push it. I'm about to either partner up in this shop or purchase a different one and I honestly don't see Campy in my future either. Not unless there's a total lack of Campy shops in the area or the company changes the way they handle things.

Mechanically speaking... I enjoy the feel of Ergo's, but I feel like the company isn't doing anything revolutionary. They seem to be simply using new materials for old technology. At the heart of it is Campy for 1998 that different from 2011? Shimano, at least, is spending money on R&D. Di2 will be revolutionary, especially when it can trickle down to the hybrid market. The D-A chainrings alone are enough to sell new riders on Shimano.

FWIW, my current bike has 10spd alloy Chorus/Record, but most of that was cobbled together, not purchased. The last few bikes I've spent money on were all Shimano bikes.

I hear ya brother. I see the UK discounted Campagnolo stuff almost everyday. I build many bikes with stuff sourced from these places. I talked tothe Campagnolo NA boys and Interbike and they mentioned taking a ahrd look at distribution in Europe, trying to close some of the 'gray' channels but I think Campagnolo Italy is happy sellin' their stuff, regardless of where it goes. I'll bet if I showed up with a suitcase full of Euros(or $), I could get gruppos, as many as I could pay for, for a really good price...and I doubt they would care where they went.

BUT having said that, and in a shop that does mostly service, my shop is the recognized Campagnolo Pro Shop here(in spite of 2 other 'Pro' shops). One of the other's have actually sent Capagnolo equipped customers to me..strange but I'll take it!

I like that distinction, stock lots of Campagnolo small bits(like a pawl spring, yesterday)...don't mind being small and NOT pumping lots of s-stuff out the door.

[weisan]

The D-A chainrings alone are enough to sell new riders on Shimano.
Wicked-pal, why is that? http://www.rutlandcycling.com/ProductImages/fullsize/dura_ace_chainset.jpg

[WickedWheels]

Looks aside (which I don't mind)...

There are 3 different metals stamped/compressed together, hollowed out, with tons of ramps and pins. The shifting is superb and the stiffness is very noticeable. Even the aesthetics and attachment is innovative. With this attachment system I can't imagine that I will ever see a broken chainring bolt. They are light, stiff and shift well... and no carbon. Not that I'm anti carbon, but I've seen too many pedal inserts coming loose in cranksets. If nothing else, take a close look at both and try to visualize the design process and the manufacturing process that results in these rings. It has to be intense!

Now compare that to Campy...

Same thin stamped, then cnc-machined chainrings that have been around for well over 15 years. Sure they added a few ramps and pins, but nothing nearly as aggressive or sophisticated as Shimano. Their fancy add-on is essentially the same teflon coating that I buy on $5 frying pans or if you'd like to get bike specific, then the same as RockShox has been adding to their forks for over 10 years. At their core, the rings are simple and are certainly overpriced, considering their simplicity. Also, considering their potential for swapping (which should give them an extra point over Shimano) they still use that stupid 135mm bolt pattern, which makes after-market replacements almost impossible. Campy could have had at least this as a potential edge over Shimano, and they even blew this simple thing, because of their need to be traditional.

As for aesthetics, I think that with the new outboard-bearings cranksets Campy ones are just as unattractive, if not more so, as Shimano, SRAM, FSA and everything else out there.

Wicked-pal, why is that? http://www.rutlandcycling.com/ProductImages/fullsize/dura_ace_chainset.jpg

[97CSI]

Ah, yes.......... a couple more folks who go for the sizzle whilst us Campy users prefer the steak. So sad.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=WickedWheels]Looks aside (which I don't mind)...

>>There are 3 different metals stamped/compressed together, hollowed out, with tons of ramps and pins. The shifting is superb and the stiffness is very noticeable. Even the aesthetics and attachment is innovative. With this attachment system I can't imagine that I will ever see a broken chainring bolt. They are light, stiff and shift well... and no carbon. Not that I'm anti carbon, but I've seen too many pedal inserts coming loose in cranksets. If nothing else, take a close look at both and try to visualize the design process and the manufacturing process that results in these rings. It has to be intense!<<

Well, you and I both know that crank/big ring was developed for Di2. W/o that chainring Di2 front shifting 'may' have been problematic. AND in the 'no such thing as a free lunch' catagory, even discounted the 7900 big ring is $400+. They are gonna wear out. I wonder if the 7900 CR would have been debuted w/o Di2.

As an aside, 7900 mechanical front shifting is the very best there is except for Di2. Campagnolo SR/Record/Chorus is also very good, sram is horrible, from the trenches.

Last point and as was showcased in the latest Rouleur mag, TA makes scads of chainrings for even 135mm BCD and the admittedly oddball Campagnolo 110/112 CT chainring. East to get and not expensive.

I get mine from Euro-Asia.

[djg]

"Younger" (sorta, early 30s) guy here.

I've only been on a Campag equipped bike for about an hour, but absolutely loved the performance, ergonomics and looks. Not a huge fan of Shimano, so next build will most likely be Sram. Couple of things keep me away from Campag:
- Horrible customer service. Sram is notably easy to deal with, and will replace anything that malfunctioned.
- Tools. $120 for a chain tool!? Campag really takes the cake in overpriced accessories, seems like they really like to bleed their followers.I like to wrench at home, so have most of the tools I need for Shimano/Sram.
- Huge price increases. At least here in the US, prices seem to be pretty erratic over the last years. I'm sure if they could pull it off in Europe that'd do it there too.
- Wheels. If I'm tying up $3K (nice set of carbon tubs race wheels and nice training set), I'd like to move them around other bikes, lend to and borrow from friends, etc. No problem between shimano and sram, no dice with Campag. This is the main deal breaker for me.
- Weight, Sram Red/Force (or even Rival) is quite affordable. Way cheaper to bring the total weight of the bike down.

That's about it I guess. I'll admit that Campag has more emotional appeal, but Sram just makes way more damn sense.

Feel free to correct me on any wrong assumptions on my part.

Customer service -- dunno if I have any particular defense of campagnolo to offer, but how often are you expecting to use this?

Well, I have the 10 speed chain tool. It was scary expensive at about 80 bucks and it's a funky proprietary tool. It's also far and away the best made and best functioning chain tool I've ever had or used. No idea what the markup is, but I'd put this in the "good tools can be pricey category." The fact is, if you have most of the tools you need for working on Shimano, you also have most of the tools you need for working on Campagnolo. Same hex wrenches. Same cable cutters. Same pedal wrench, chain-whip, etc.

Price and weight? I dunno. Chorus 11 and Centaur 10 are both great groups that can be found at reasonable prices. Not heavy at all -- unless you are counting each and every gram everywhere (not my thing, but to each his own) there's much more weight to be saved elsewhere on the bike. Moreover, these groups should last a long time. Price-per-mile seems really good to me. Still, for pre-packaged bikes in the US, there's no question that there are huge discounts on the groups that Shimano & Sram sell to the manufacturers (and labelers).

Wheels -- interchangeability is a big consideration and if you've got a bunch of Shimano wheels and kit in service, then that seems to me (as a campagnolo user) to be a good reason to stick with that system. For similar reasons, I've built up my cross bikes with Campy 10 speed -- all the wheels stay in the same family. There are partial fixes -- certainly you could use a conversion cassette to use a campagnolo-splined free-hub with a shimano or sram drivetrain, or vice versa; and there's j-tek, etc., and you can even futz with the stuff and get it to work as is. But if what you want is quick-and-easy wheel swaps between your bikes, or with pals, there's just no comparison.

Up until the wheels interchangability bit, I'd say there was too much thinking/rationalization. If you need the cheapest package you can get -- or that you can get to also get the frame that works for you -- then I'd say that's a big consideration. Otherwise, I'd say just ride what appeals to you. The stuff all works, with different ergonomics on the levers, and their operation, being one of the only things to sort the choices much one way or the other.

[Dave]

Before bragging on that DA crank and it's chainring, you should price a replacement ring. Although it may use a more common BCD, you can't replace that ring with one from any other company and get the same performance. You can only get one of those thin rings you complained about.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?rlz=1T4GGIH_enUS275US275&q=dura+ace+7900+chainrings&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=14101762470559983397&ei=GW8LTYv8HZS4sQPwoLCNCw&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=image&resnum=5&ved=0CDYQ8gIwBA#

Campy cranks have one chainring bolt the goes into the back side of the crankarm, which makes them unique and not compatible with other rings where all the bolts are on the front side. With that in mind, the 135mm BCD make no difference. You can get Campy compatible replacement rings from Stronglight and probably TA. The coating on the Campy rings is NOT teflon. The current rings have an extremely hard black anodized coating.

Don't forget that Campy is still working on an electronic group and it's being test ridden in Europe. Despite being a much smaller company, they were first with 10 speed and first with 11 speed. I suspect that history will repeat itself with the other brands catching up 4 years later.

Shimano has botched a number of their recent attempts at change, like the 7800 hubset with the oversized aluminum cassette body that only lasted two years. Campy's oversize aluminum axle and aluminum cassette body design is lighter and remains unchanged for over 10 years now, because they got it right the first time. The Record hub is also cheaper than DA.

Shimano's most recent 7900 shifter design made the brake hoods longer than any other brands and reduced the function of the shifter so it now only shifts two cogs larger with one sweep of the brake lever. With compact cranks, that doesn't cut it - you need at least a 3-cog shift after the shift to the big ring. Campy's latest powershift levers are more functional, lighter and far cheaper than DA (but not as nice as the higher level ultrashift levers).

Campy's ultrashift ergos are revolutionary, compared to the previous design - much simpler and quite easy to disassemble, if ever needed. Even the higher level Campy shifters are cheaper than either of the other brands. They can still be repaired, but Campy did quit selling all the small pieces. You now have to buy a major assembly to make a repair, but the new mechanism no longer has any heavily stressed springs to wear out and little maintenance should be needed.

You can get an 11 speed pin flaring tool for about $40 from Park or just use a KMC 11 speed chain and your current chain tool to adjust the length. The Campy 11 chain tool is no longer a necessity.

The Campy price issue is a mess, so I bought all of my 11 speed parts from European sources, back in November of '08. I paid less than the price for comparable SRAM or Shimano groups. With a little searching, you can find a few US sources with decent prices (Licktons for example).

[garysol1]

Maybe I am overly diligent in my maintenance but I have never had to replace a chainring due to wear in all my years riding modern components. If I do need to replace a ring every 4 or 5 years then so be it. It is just not a deal breaker.

[WickedWheels]

You are right on almost all points

You can't argue the amount of R&D that's behind Shimano and the amount of work that goes into making their parts (as opposed to Campy).

As for the pricing issue... it's a big one. I would be curious as to how many of the Campy-only members actually buy their drive-trains from the LBS's and how many go online to Europe. In my experience it's a huge majority that go online... much bigger than the SRAM/Shimano crowd. That's why you'll see shops pushing the latter and Campy will not be a consideration in the long term for cyclists that are just entering the sport today.

I don't expect you to buy your Campy from your LBS with such a huge price difference. It's unreasonable. I would expect Campy North America to make the price difference more reasonable.

One more thing... since you mention D-A chainring prices... with proper mark-up the D-A cassette sells for $300. The Super-Record cassette should go for about $600... and this is assuming that your LBS can get proper mark-up for it.




The Campy price issue is a mess, so I bought all of my 11 speed parts from European sources, back in November of '08. I paid less than the price for comparable SRAM or Shimano groups. With a little searching, you can find a few US sources with decent prices (Licktons for example).

[Dave]

Here are several places that sell the SR chainring.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?rlz=1T4GGIH_enUS275US275&q=campagnolo+11+speed+chainring&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=4417290626340773609&ei=zHYLTfKtFY2isQOjr_T1Cg&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCsQ8wIwAw#

Your cassette comparison is nonsense too. A proper comparison would be a Record 10 cassette with the same number of Ti cogs. I can get one for $200 from Ribble. A Record 11 cassette is about $250. Since Ti cogs last half as long as steel, I've wised up and buy Chorus 11 cassettes (currently about $115). The European sellers aren't working as a charity, selling without profit. Apparently, there are too many middle men upcharging to stores in the US. That started in late '08 when the '09 parts came out.

http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/pp/road-track-bike/Cassettes-Road/CASS

Maybe I'm giving the young folks too much credit for being computer savy and shopping online. I'm 57 years old and I've been shopping mail order only for the last 15 years and online for about 10 years. I can't imagine that any local shop in the Denver area would sell any brand of components for a price that comes close to the online prices that I pay.

[oldpotatoe]

You are right on almost all points

You can't argue the amount of R&D that's behind Shimano and the amount of work that goes into making their parts (as opposed to Campy).

As for the pricing issue... it's a big one. I would be curious as to how many of the Campy-only members actually buy their drive-trains from the LBS's and how many go online to Europe. In my experience it's a huge majority that go online... much bigger than the SRAM/Shimano crowd. That's why you'll see shops pushing the latter and Campy will not be a consideration in the long term for cyclists that are just entering the sport today.

I don't expect you to buy your Campy from your LBS with such a huge price difference. It's unreasonable. I would expect Campy North America to make the price difference more reasonable.

One more thing... since you mention D-A chainring prices... with proper mark-up the D-A cassette sells for $300. The Super-Record cassette should go for about $600... and this is assuming that your LBS can get proper mark-up for it.

Once again, Dave did a great job of summarizing the important points of Campagnolo..Forza!!

Remember Campagnolo NA is a small piece of Campagnolo, Italia. They really have little voice or horsepower or influence. They cannot do anything about pricing, that has to come from the desk of Valentino, who no doubt, IS the final word at Campagnolo.

After all is said and done, like the guy that works on a very technologically advanced automobile, if he were me, I would still drive an older Alfa or Porsche. I will always use Campagnolo equipment, would never sully my personal bicycle frames(much more important part, IMO) with any group that starts with the letter 'S'.

Light and cheap-sram. A mediocre component group marketed well.
Technically advanced-shimano. Still the big dog in OEM.
But like a Rolex or Ducati or Alfa Romeo..to use/ride/drive it is an emotional experience....Not everything needs to be the cheapest, most practical..ya only go around once...Make mine Campagnolo!!

[garysol1]

I will always use Campagnolo equipment, would never sully my personal bicycle frames(much more important part, IMO) with any group that starts with the letter 'S'.

I have to think Campy loves close minded marketing driven individuals such as yourself that believe that anything besides Campy is junk no matter what.
The above drivel sounds just like my Harley Davidson riding neighbor who sticks his nose up any other motorcycle no matter how much better than his they are.

:beer:

[oldguy00]

Do you guys really wear out that many chainrings and cassettes? Do you really break the internals of your shifters that often??
Man, in 20 years of riding, I've never had a shifter break (downtube, bar-end, or STI/Ergo).
I base my decision on how much I like how the group looks, if I like the function, and compatibility.
I'd love to get campy 11, but as someone else mentioned, not many riding buddies on 11 speed for wheel swaps and rather expensive chains and cassettes.
I tried SRAM Red and just hated the shift mechanism (personal preference).
So back to 7900 for now. It just works perfect, is smooth, and I don't mind the looks. 7800 is actually my fav. group of all time.............OK, not entirely true, my C-Record/Delta group from 1991 was my favorite..

[fourflys]

come on guys, play nice....

[GuyGadois]

This reminds me of PC vs Mac battle. PCs are available everywhere. PCs are "cheaper". PCs are used by all major business. BUT, I just think Macs are better.

I did a poll a few years ago on this site to see if there was any corolation between OS and component groups...

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=62514&highlight=campy+mac+users

Gadois

[rice rocket]

This reminds me of PC vs Mac battle. PCs are available everywhere. PCs are "cheaper". PCs are used by all major business. BUT, I just think Macs are better.

I did a poll a few years ago on this site to see if there was any corolation between OS and component groups...

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=62514&highlight=campy+mac+users

Gadois

Geez, a lot more Campy users in general on here than what's average.

[gemship]

Do you guys really wear out that many chainrings and cassettes? Do you really break the internals of your shifters that often??
Man, in 20 years of riding, I've never had a shifter break (downtube, bar-end, or STI/Ergo).
I base my decision on how much I like how the group looks, if I like the function, and compatibility.
I'd love to get campy 11, but as someone else mentioned, not many riding buddies on 11 speed for wheel swaps and rather expensive chains and cassettes.
I tried SRAM Red and just hated the shift mechanism (personal preference).
So back to 7900 for now. It just works perfect, is smooth, and I don't mind the looks. 7800 is actually my fav. group of all time.............OK, not entirely true, my C-Record/Delta group from 1991 was my favorite..


for most par I agree with although I will say in my experience most recently I have a road bike with Shimano Sora shifters and while they work they are stiff feeling especially the front chain ring shifting action and there is a extra click on the rear shifter as if it were a nine speed but it's actually a eight speed, not to mention it has a ton of slop, lack of feel in the upshifts to larger cogs. I also have the entry level Alivio mountain bike shifters on my Trek 4300sl. I did break the front chainring shifter thru nothing more than simple use, hardly ever shifted into the smallest chainring.

What I'm trying to say is that and I believe no matter what the brand it is less likely to break shifters when it comes to the higher level offerings. I think a jump to 105 or xt for the mountain bike would make all the difference. Although I strongly suspect despite not owning Campy that lower level Campy shifters are built with better quality in terms of holding up to their function. I would happily but a black finish Veloce group to replace the Sora stuff if I could afford it at this point. By the way I like the fit of both my Aluminum Road Bike and Mountain Bikes and they are every bit as worthy a frameset for the second tier drivetrain offerings found on many 2k or 3k $ bikes.

[FixedNotBroken]

Deals for Campy are out there, you just have to be savvy enough to find them. More LBS than you think are willing to cut a deal with you, yes Campy might be more expensive even in in the lower tier group but even the lower tier Campy groups are functionally and cosmetically terrific. I would say that the lower groups TRUMP the lower groups of Shimano/SRAM. Sora, Tiagra, Apex, Rival..yadayadayada it's not good to me whatsoever. Yes, I will agree Ultegra and DA is good stuff and it does well but Chorus/Record/SR..do I need to even say how well these perform? Hell, if it weren't for the weight, Chorus could easily be used in any Tour, in any race, but could 105? Highly doubtful. The precision and the excellence that comes with the Campy at all levels is amazing and Shimano's "Trickle Down Theory" which gets everyone to buy their lower end stuff is sad..Campy doesn't have any "trickle down" because it's Campy! I don't care how expensive Campy is, I will always buy it because not only are you buying excellence, your buying quality, sex appeal, improved emotion, and class.

[forrestw]

Do you guys really wear out that many chainrings and cassettes? Do you really break the internals of your shifters that often??
Man, in 20 years of riding, I've never had a shifter break (downtube, bar-end, or STI/Ergo).

No I don't wear stuff out that much and properly maintained, the campy gear is less prone to wear/failure than the shimano/sram. I've worked a few large group/charity rides (PMC and the like). Shimano shifters do break and when that happens you're really SOL, not only do you have to finish that day's ride, you gotta replace the whole part. These aren't huge numbers, say 2-4 in 4000 riders in a day, and mostly in the 105 component range. So maybe ultegra/DA shifters are less failure prone but still when they go, you toss 'em out. Campy, otoh you can dismantle every couple of years, clean out and lubricate and slap back into service. My record 10s bought off ebay have 30k miles of use and have only needed the index springs replaced, took me an hour and cost $8.

More important to me, Campy chains last twice as long as Shimano/SRAM. I think this is principally because they're using a fundamentally harder and more wear resistant steel. Whatever the reason, while I destroy a Shim/SRAM chain in 2k miles, at the same mileage, I can barely measure the stretch in a campy chain. This also means cogs & chainrings to last longer, as gauge-length change in the chain is the primary cause of accelerated sprocket wear. Also Campy's sprockets are thicker than the others, again meaning they last longer.

"Younger" (sorta, early 30s) guy here.
Couple of things keep me away from Campag:
- Horrible customer service. Sram is notably easy to deal with, and will replace anything that malfunctioned.
- Tools. $120 for a chain tool!? Campag really takes the cake in overpriced accessories, seems like they really like to bleed their followers.I like to wrench at home, so have most of the tools I need for Shimano/Sram.
- Huge price increases. At least here in the US, prices seem to be pretty erratic over the last years. I'm sure if they could pull it off in Europe that'd do it there too.
- Wheels. If I'm tying up $3K (nice set of carbon tubs race wheels and nice training set), I'd like to move them around other bikes, lend to and borrow from friends, etc. No problem between shimano and sram, no dice with Campag. This is the main deal breaker for me.
- Weight, Sram Red/Force (or even Rival) is quite affordable. Way cheaper to bring the total weight of the bike down.


Customer service .. I get mine via the LBS

Tools .. you can change a campy 10 chain with a $15 Park portable tool, I prefer to use their $50 shop version, as the portable ones aren't all that well aligned. Yeah you'll need the $45 peening tool as well for 11s .. price of admission

Prices/weights .. ymmv, retail pricing of Campy is less than Shimano/SRAM of similar component weights

Wheels .. yes this can be tough, the advantages I list above trump this in my mind.

Ref the OP.

Campagnolo will continue to be in the biz, I'd hazard a guess they've made a choice *not* to heavily discount to bike manufacturers. Not everyone wants to be producing millions of units every year and obviously they have enough volume / economy of scale to profit in selling to those of us who want their gear.

I compare them to Ducati, who took some US investor $ back in the 90s and turned the marque into a household name, aided by beating the snot out of hondazuki .. etc on the superbike circuit. Goes to show that really big R&D budgets don't always result in the best possible product / result.

[fiamme red]

I will always use Campagnolo equipment, would never sully my personal bicycle frames(much more important part, IMO) with any group that starts with the letter 'S'.Even Suntour Superbe? :)

[oldpotatoe]

I have to think Campy loves close minded marketing driven individuals such as yourself that believe that anything besides Campy is junk no matter what.
The above drivel sounds just like my Harley Davidson riding neighbor who sticks his nose up any other motorcycle no matter how much better than his they are.

:beer:

Many thanks.

I'm tapping out..I can get abused in the shop.

BTW-I ride a steel bike with tubulars.

[oldpotatoe]

Even Suntour Superbe? :)

That was very nice stuff. I think shimano is very well designed and manufacturered, very refined..in spite of what the guy from Ohio says...I like shimano, just prefer Campagnolo. For the Ohio guy, I like Guzzis, Ducatis and Aprillias also. Not Toyotas or Harleys.

[WickedWheels]

Dave,

This is the reason that my shop will not carry campy and new cyclists that shop with me will not be given campy as an option (unless they specifically ask for it). Almost every Campy lover that has spoken up here mentioned that they buy it online. What does that mean for Campy in the U.S. market 10 years from now?

Another problem for Campy, btw, is that the big growth in cycling is specifically in the triathlon market. Campy is not a major player in that market.

Oldpotatoe... I'm glad your niche works for you. There will always be a market for a small knowledgeable Campy shop, just as there will always be a market for a one-man-custom-frame-builder company. I wonder, though, how big your shop is? I see the trend in bike shops going towards large shops, partly because the vendors and brands are consolidating, and wonder if you could afford to be so "pro-Campy" if you were running a large ($2,3,4+ million a year) shop and had to support a large staff.

I apologize if this sounds snobby... it's not meant to be "big shops are better than small shops" or "my shop is bigger than yours" statement. I'm simply trying to imply that a shop that supports one owner and a small staff can survive from servicing a dwindling number of Campy riders that need their mail order parts serviced. I don't think that a shop with a large staff or a large customer base can survive from that demographic and maybe see those mail-order-Campy customers as not worth the hassle, thus reducing their commitment to Campy and further encouraging new customers to go to the "S" brands.

Here are several places that sell the SR chainring.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?rlz=1T4GGIH_enUS275US275&q=campagnolo+11+speed+chainring&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=4417290626340773609&ei=zHYLTfKtFY2isQOjr_T1Cg&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCsQ8wIwAw#

Your cassette comparison is nonsense too. A proper comparison would be a Record 10 cassette with the same number of Ti cogs. I can get one for $200 from Ribble. A Record 11 cassette is about $250. Since Ti cogs last half as long as steel, I've wised up and buy Chorus 11 cassettes (currently about $115). The European sellers aren't working as a charity, selling without profit. Apparently, there are too many middle men upcharging to stores in the US. That started in late '08 when the '09 parts came out.

http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/pp/road-track-bike/Cassettes-Road/CASS

Maybe I'm giving the young folks too much credit for being computer savy and shopping online. I'm 57 years old and I've been shopping mail order only for the last 15 years and online for about 10 years. I can't imagine that any local shop in the Denver area would sell any brand of components for a price that comes close to the online prices that I pay.

[Habanero]

When Sram came on the scene with their Double tap road group a couple of years ago word was they might dip into Shimano sales but Campagnolo will keep its loyal following.

Now that Liquigas has gone over to Sram ( http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/liquigas-training-in-sardinia ) this could be the final straw of Campagnolos demise from the pro ranks.
Some of us "old timers" may remain loyal but new and up and comers have
no allegiance or experience and may see Sram or Shimano as the must have group with Campagnolo filling a "niche designer" role?

What say you?

BTW I love my Campy.

Could not agree more Bob! Campy has been outhustled, and newbies to the sport will see Campy as a novelty rather than a legitimate choice.

[fourflys]

fairly new rider here that loves Campy and bought from the LBS... would I urn my nose up at a complete bike that had Shimano? no, but it might keep me from buying a bike that has SRAM... it's great that SRAM had awesome customer service, but there shouldn't be as much need for the customer service as there seems to be... BTW- I had no issues with Campy customer service this summer as I did buy from an LBS and had a receipt...

to each their own, but some of the responses here are borderline IMHO...

[fourflys]

Could not agree more Bob! Campy has been outhustled, and newbies to the sport will see Campy as a novelty rather than a legitimate choice.

agree, but it's kind of like a new motorcycle rider that wants to adventure tour and buys a Kawi KLR but eventually sees the light and steps up to a BMW GS...

noobs have no idea what they want... at least I didn't... I took was on the bike (105/Tiagra)...

[bike22]

i'm still confused on the bit about the $400 da7900 chainring.

the just the da7900 outer ring costs $400?

i couldn't find much via my (lacking) google skills.

[gemship]

agree, but it's kind of like a new motorcycle rider that wants to adventure tour and buys a Kawi KLR but eventually sees the light and steps up to a BMW GS...

noobs have no idea what they want... at least I didn't... I took was on the bike (105/Tiagra)...


Oh I love the KLR, it is such a capable bike, you can actually go all over the world with that bike, you could ride some pretty tight single track with it that I imagine a GS would be scraping the heads on among other things. But... it's a one lunger and not something I would really want to travel cross country on the highway with or even do much more than thirty miles with. They do get pretty decent fuel economy and they're fun, it could be a good second vehicle. This sounds silly but it's true, about four years ago I sold my Ninja 10r after owning for a year and a half and I put about six thousand miles on it. Well I guess I just needed a break from sporbikes, I ended up selling it back to the dealer for a Honda Ruckus scooter and the difference in cash adding up to the KBB value, it wasn't a bad thing because I really wanted a scooter and then I just bought myself a Cervelo R3sl because I wanted a really light carbon racing bicycle. So basically I turned a sportbike in terms of value into a scooter and a racing bicycle. Well Now it's been four years and I have a little over seven thousand miles on the Ruckus and a mere fourteen hundred miles on the Cervelo. I like my Ruckus but I miss being able to have the power to get on the highway and really go places that are far away. I think I need another motorcycle. The Cervelo is awesome but I have two other bikes of lesser value that I spend more time on. I'm thinking about selling both of them, well I do want to keep the components on the Cervelo to soup up my Raleigh. The KLR is one bike I'm considering as well as a Katana 600 or a Vstrom or even a EX500. I just want something that will do 80mph be reliable pull a wheelie and cheap as well as get 60mpg and some decent life out of a set of tires. I owned like four 1000cc sportbikes, despite not doing burnouts I always had to replace a back tire at about five to six thousand miles and at least with the 10r I didn't seem to get much more than 35mpg, not good for a bike.

Sorry for the thread drift but KLR's get me dreaming.

[rustychain]

We all have different needs and I for one am glad to see competition.
If I was a young lad looking for a cheap functional road race worthy groupset I would buy Sram. As soon as I got a job and had some coin it would be DA. When I got to the point I could buy anything I wanted its Campag. I look very carefully at groupset in terms of function, don't care really how they look or what's "in" this year. Electric (i have used Di2 and Mavic) did nothing for me. Well they make a cool sound but the shifting is slower on the rear compared to SR11, it weighs more and is more expensive to repair/replace. Other then the gee whizz its electric factor I fear its to left to the next generation to perfect.
Mixing groupsets in cross does allow for some really good things. XTR with high normal gets my vote with Campag 10 ergos. Makes for a great 9 speed drivetrain thats also cheap to maintain. So in the end I think we live in great if expensive times. As to availability I have yet to find an LBS that will not order you anything Campag and in many shops anything Sram road is also needs to be ordered. If you want price shop online but don't complain when all the cool shops die off

[gemship]

We all have different needs and I for one am glad to see competition.
If I was a young lad looking for a cheap functional road race worthy groupset I would buy Sram. As soon as I got a job and had some coin it would be DA. When I got to the point I could buy anything I wanted its Campag. I look very carefully at groupset in terms of function, don't care really how they look or what's "in" this year. Electric (i have used Di2 and Mavic) did nothing for me. Well they make a cool sound but the shifting is slower on the rear compared to SR11, it weighs more and is more expensive to repair/replace. Other then the gee whizz its electric factor I fear its to left to the next generation to perfect.
Mixing groupsets in cross does allow for some really good things. XTR with high normal gets my vote with Campag 10 ergos. Makes for a great 9 speed drivetrain thats also cheap to maintain. So in the end I think we live in great if expensive times. As to availability I have yet to find an LBS that will not order you anything Campag and in many shops anything Sram road is also needs to be ordered. If you want price shop online but don't complain when all the cool shops die off



I have never used Sram and I won't argue that it's cheap compared to the other top tier groupsets but it's not cheap. I've seen it on EBay with the buy it now for like 1500$ for the red group, I know they taut it as being the lightest complete groupset. I just don't think 1500$ is cheap for a groupset anything. This is one of the caveats of racing, high end bicycles, they really aren't cheap. Initial cost of a high end bicycle rivals the cost of a motorcycle. I can see where not to many young people even enter the sport because of the high cost and even if you can afford a nice bike or in this case equipping a bike with Sram Red, it really should work flawlessly with the precision and smoothness of anything else out there for at least ten years. yeah component selection for anybody building a bicycle just stinks, cable pull brakes, shifters all this stuff isn't new technology.

[bobswire]

I have never used Sram and I won't argue that it's cheap compared to the other top tier groupsets but it's not cheap. I've seen it on EBay with the buy it now for like 1500$ for the red group, I know they taut it as being the lightest complete groupset. I just don't think 1500$ is cheap for a groupset anything. This is one of the caveats of racing, high end bicycles, they really aren't cheap. Initial cost of a high end bicycle rivals the cost of a motorcycle. I can see where not to many young people even enter the sport because of the high cost and even if you can afford a nice bike or in this case equipping a bike with Sram Red, it really should work flawlessly with the precision and smoothness of anything else out there for at least ten years. yeah component selection for anybody building a bicycle just stinks, cable pull brakes, shifters all this stuff isn't new technology.

Shh, don't let the cat out of the bag but the Performance "forte" carbon shifters and derailleurs I set up on the Salsa Podio work as smooth as Campy or Ultegra I have on other bike and the shifting fit the natural ergonomics of my hand better than either of the major brands I use.
Got the shifters w/derailleurs for under $190 out the door during one of their sales.

http://i56.tinypic.com/2lkwhnr.jpg
Having said that you risk being scorned and ridiculed at you local group rides. :o

[Dave]

Some of you guys may be right about Campy being best suited for the more experienced rider, and one who's capable of doing his own mechanical work. I started riding seriously in 1985. Back then, I rode Shimano or Suntour Superbe Pro. When I bought an Italian steel bike in 1995, I decided to put Campy Record on it (8 speed back then). I was hooked after that and never considered using Shimano again.

The future users of Campy may be those who have been riding for quite a few years and frequent forums like these, often enough to wonder if Campy is worth a try and gathering enough information to figure out that there are places to buy other than the LBS.

I still read whining posts from relatively young Campy users who complain about the high price of Campy parts (bought at the LBS). I give them some schooling on where to buy, but also advise that if you can't even change your own chain, switch back to Shimano or SRAM - you're not Campy worthy.

My guess it that the European market is plenty big enough to keep Campy in business and they could care less if their US sales decline.

[BdaGhisallo]

If you study trends in advertising and what happens with market share as a result, you may change your mind. Humans are programmable.

Exactly. If sponsorship has no effect on consumer choices why would any company sponsor any team for anything? It'd just be a waste of money. They could get amateurs to do their R&D testing, for a lot less.

[btulloch]

As a younger (24) racer type, doing both road and CX...
I started with Shimano since it was OEM on any bike around (I started riding more seriously shortly before SRAM came out on the road)

Now I have a bunch of Shimano wheels and tools, I have considered changing to campy because it seems like better overall quality for the price, but there are a few important reasons I decided to stay with Shimano/SRAM (considering a SRAM red group this year!)

Going to Campy means
I need new wheels or freehub bodies for all the wheels I currently have
I need new tools

As far as support goes, this is the main problem for me
It's more important for me to get replacement parts quickly, or to be able to borrow parts for a race weekend if I have a problem, and since most people are riding shimano and sram, it makes more sense to keep those.

Back when I first started 24h mountain bike races (even before moving more to road racing) I had a cygolite light. Niterider, light in motion and BLT were supported at the race, but cygolite not. When I had a problem with my light it was game over until the morning, so after that, the degree of support in the local scene has been an important consideration for me.

[Dave]

New tools - a Campy cassette lockring tool. If you have 11 speed, you need a Park pin flaring tool for the Campy chain, but not if you choose a KMC chain.

The BB cup tool is the same.

Racers make up an extremely small percentage of cyclists - my guess is 1% or less race regularly.

[gemship]

New tools - a Campy cassette lockring tool. If you have 11 speed, you need a Park pin flaring tool for the Campy chain, but not if you choose a KMC chain.

The BB cup tool is the same.

Racers make up an extremely small percentage of cyclists - my guess is 1% or less race regularly.


+1 ,that's exactly what I was thinking or in other words the retooling is really a minimal investment. The expensive part is buying the group and if your racing with it especially at the amateur, pro amateur level like the previous poster said it's just easier to find free support in the paddocks when you're using shimano or sram. Now there's enough reason to stick with the big "s". I don't even race and I invested in a Park AK-37 tool kit, at 230$ it wasn't cheap but it was worth it. I believe I have already broke even if I had to pay a mechanic to work on any of my three Shimano/Sram bikes. I'll stick with Shimano just for the reason that I don't want to retool, on a budget and there is so much cheap used stuff out there. My two lower level bikes with entry level Sti Shimano shifters need the shifters replaced due to there breaking thru regular use. There was a post on another thread started by Smiley, just reminded me of the old school mountain bike thumb shifters, Smiley had Paul's thumbies. I may just have to convert to those shifters, I'm no racer, in it for the long haul.

[Dave]

Retooling costs - under $50. That shouldn't be a deal breaker. It could be only $7.

http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.aspx?PART_NUM_SUB='2489-00'

http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.aspx?PART_NUM_SUB='2434-00'

[leooooo]

Going to Campy means
I need new wheels or freehub bodies for all the wheels I currently have


Not trying to just single you out, but I see this point brought up many times in this thread.

IMO, how is this a knock on Campy? It's a two way street. If a Campy user goes to Shimano/SRAM, they would have to buy new wheels/freehub bodies as well.

[flickwet]

In my particular case, I can't argue that. LBS is owned by 'absentee' (as in rarely in the shop) owners and they only stock what supports the 'big box bikes' (Trek, etc.) that they sell. Both the mechanics are excellent and 'old school' (i.e. Campy preferred), but they don't own the place so it is a Shimano/SRAM house.
You must live in my world

[btulloch]

Not trying to just single you out, but I see this point brought up many times in this thread.

IMO, how is this a knock on Campy? It's a two way street. If a Campy user goes to Shimano/SRAM, they would have to buy new wheels/freehub bodies as well.


This is nothing against campy, but against switching to campy. And if Campy wished to increase their market share (which has been discussed in the thread that maybe they don't) it would be wise to provide OEM groups. If 90% of people start riding Shimano/SRAM on their first bike, you would really have to have some good reasons to make the switch. Similarly for Campy switching to SRAM, but I think Shimano/SRAM benefit from this much more than Campy

[forrestw]

These thoughts go well past the OP's desire not to make this a 'my preferred group is betterer' region :-)

Lastnight prompted by wanting to get onto the rollers soon, I started to finish this season's maintenance on the Legend. The primary job was looking after my RH shift lever which had been tending to slightly wonky operation and occasional spontaneous up-shifts. I'd figured that the index springs, with 20k miles of riding might be tired.

Having picked up the replacement carrier and springs (noting that Campy has apparently replaced the Al investment casting for a carbon-reinforced plastic part) I got started. On dismantling, I found that in fact one of the pair of index springs had fractured. I finished the overhaul, cleared out old grease and was happy to see that indexing felt (perhaps not surprisingly) better than the last time I had had it apart (ca. 15k miles of use).

As I noted in my prior response on this thread, I've seen enough failed Shimano shifters to be very glad to be riding something I can repair. I hadn't thought about it before, but Campy's use of dual index springs allows the unit to still work with one broken which is more than you'll get with Shimano -- from what I've seen when they go, they simply don't work. In the unlikely event that both index springs failed, I would be able to shift the campy by manually opposing the finger/thumb levers, you'd have to hold the fingers lever in place as long as you wanted lower gearing. not pretty, but it'd get you home better than the one-speed you'd be stuck with on a Shimano.

If I *weren't* mechanically inclined, the LBS charges $45 to rebuild one of these but since it only took me a bit over an hour, I figure I'm ahead of the game doing it myself.

While my buddy at my LBS has tried to sell me on SRAM, noting that the internals are accessible and simpler than Campy, everything I've been able to find suggests that since SRAM doesn't make the parts available, this is sort of a dead-end.

So, as I count it, net benefit Campagnolo:

Their designs are solid / reliable

I continue to be able to buy spares for pretty much whatever breaks / wears out (this said, the wait for bits that aren't part of a regular overhaul can be long-ish)

They continue to improve the implementation (replacing an Al part that was prone to an annoying but non-critical fracture with a carbon reinforced plastic).


Back to the OP's point, a company that continues to differentiate and deliver an excellent product will continue to survive just fine in the market.

[flickwet]

My 73 ALFA Romeo spyder had Campy wheels! but the rest of the gruppo was in house stuff. Campy gonna be around a long time.

[deanster]

I assume that all of the parts are given to the teams as a form of advertising. The amount given away doesn't amount to much.



It isn't the parts given to the teams but the serious sponsorship money that accompanies the "parts." Teams are very expensive propostions and the budgets run in the millions...SRAM is buying loyalty.

Campy will be around for a long time. I started riding in 1955 with a mix of campy, Weimann, Regina,... I accumulated campy tools over the years so I stay with campy. I have many generations of campy parts from gran sport to the latest Campy Record 10s. The great thing is the ability to rebuild parts like Ergo Shifters, RD, and refurbish many of the bearing components with polishing compound.
I have Shimano on my MTB and a mix of Campy and Shimano on my touring bike. One nice thing is that Campy 10s and Shimano 9s cassettes will work with campy shifters so I can get a 11-34 cassette to work on my Campy / Shimano touring bike which is a mix of Centur, Daytona (9s converted to 10S), crankset 30-40-50 with replacement rings of 26 and 39. Touring requires reliability in the extreme. Campy has never failed my on the Road as I do keep my bikes in good shape. I will always be a campy guy.
SRAM has reliability problems with the Red Group because they went too light and if you don't pull the cables and keep them clean and greased they will cause breakage in the shift lever. They do stand behind the products and will send you a new lever...just not out on the highway when and where you need one.

I am 200lbs and ride on and off road. Most racers are in the 110 to 130 range and components are optimized for their size. Wheel sets are a classic example. I will stick with a 32H 3X 14/15 spoke, and a Campy hub. Build my own wheels or have a local wheel builder (vecchios) build them...I have never broken a spoke and ride my XC bike with DT Swiss RR1.1 rims over a lot of brutal terrain. The real lesson is to have your bike with appropriate components for Your size and style of riding...skip the Bling for Bling's sake.
Good riding in 2011 and beyond.

[97CSI]

It isn't the parts given to the teams but the serious sponsorship money that accompanies the "parts." Teams are very expensive propostions and the budgets run in the millions...SRAM is buying loyalty.No......SRAM, Shimano and Campagnolo are all buying advertising. Not loyalty. Riders move from team to team and change their kit from one end to the other with no choice. They ride what the sponsors give them. All about advertising.

[oldpotatoe]

No......SRAM, Shimano and Campagnolo are all buying advertising. Not loyalty. Riders move from team to team and change their kit from one end to the other with no choice. They ride what the sponsors give them. All about advertising.

Good point. What's telling is after they retire and no longer get the full ride, sponsored fully, bro deals..look to see what frame/fork/gruppo/wheels/tires they use that they have to pay for.

[oldpotatoe]

It isn't the parts given to the teams but the serious sponsorship money that accompanies the "parts." Teams are very expensive propostions and the budgets run in the millions...SRAM is buying loyalty.

Campy will be around for a long time. I started riding in 1955 with a mix of campy, Weimann, Regina,... I accumulated campy tools over the years so I stay with campy. I have many generations of campy parts from gran sport to the latest Campy Record 10s. The great thing is the ability to rebuild parts like Ergo Shifters, RD, and refurbish many of the bearing components with polishing compound.
I have Shimano on my MTB and a mix of Campy and Shimano on my touring bike. One nice thing is that Campy 10s and Shimano 9s cassettes will work with campy shifters so I can get a 11-34 cassette to work on my Campy / Shimano touring bike which is a mix of Centur, Daytona (9s converted to 10S), crankset 30-40-50 with replacement rings of 26 and 39. Touring requires reliability in the extreme. Campy has never failed my on the Road as I do keep my bikes in good shape. I will always be a campy guy.
SRAM has reliability problems with the Red Group because they went too light and if you don't pull the cables and keep them clean and greased they will cause breakage in the shift lever. They do stand behind the products and will send you a new lever...just not out on the highway when and where you need one.

I am 200lbs and ride on and off road. Most racers are in the 110 to 130 range and components are optimized for their size. Wheel sets are a classic example. I will stick with a 32H 3X 14/15 spoke, and a Campy hub. Build my own wheels or have a local wheel builder (vecchios) build them...I have never broken a spoke and ride my XC bike with DT Swiss RR1.1 rims over a lot of brutal terrain. The real lesson is to have your bike with appropriate components for Your size and style of riding...skip the Bling for Bling's sake.
Good riding in 2011 and beyond.

Thanks for the plug........

[rice rocket]

Been around for a long time doesn't mean profitable. :)

SunTour was around for a while too, and now they're totally irrelevant. They also didn't want to respond to market pressure...

[Ralph]

My guess is Campagnolo decided some time back they can't compete with Shimano on price at all points of the market. They just don't have the resources to compete in the OE market. To compete on price.

So they have positioned themselves as a premium brand....at least in US, and work toward maintaining profit levels on what they do sell. They pick the price points they wish to compete in. Then fight hard for the home market.

Kinda like what BMW and Mercedes do in our market. They try to convince buyers they are better than Ford and GM in the North American market, so they try to avoid competing on price. Even though they do have entry level products....like Xenon.

[97CSI]

Thanks for the plug........Can you tell us who imports and distributes Campy in the USA? Is it Campy directly or is it a separate company? Who do you have to deal with as a Pro Shop for Campy?

[oldguy00]

New tools - a Campy cassette lockring tool. If you have 11 speed, you need a Park pin flaring tool for the Campy chain, but not if you choose a KMC chain.

The BB cup tool is the same.

Racers make up an extremely small percentage of cyclists - my guess is 1% or less race regularly.

Is anyone using a KMC 11 speed chain that has a -reusable- link? Or is there not a reusable link available yet?
Thx!

[oldguy00]

Also, regarding campy, aside from some trickle down of carbon bits, what is the diff. between the 2010 and 2011 groups? For example, at Licks, I see the 2010 Chorus 11 group for under $1200, but the 2011 Chorus is $400 more...

I also see they don't offer an 11 speed 12-23 cassette. That sucks. I have no need for a 25, nor do I need an 11. Given that, I really don't gain any extra 'gear' from my Shimano setup.. :(

[Dave]

A 12-23 would makes no sense with 11 speed. With 10 speed, a 12-23 is a straight block all the way to the 19T. An 11 speed cassette would have a 19-20 shift that would be such a small percentage that it's not worthwhile.

Even the 18-19 shift is questionable. I had an 18T for a few years with a 12-21 9 speed, but when 10 speed came out, the initial offerings did not include a 12-23, so I got a 12-25, without the 18T. I never missed it.

The bottom line is that 11 speed offers nothing for those who ride the flatlands.

There have been a few improvements for 2011 Chorus. The chainring shifting ramps have been improved again, the shifters have firmer clicks and the brake pads and holders have been improved. The price difference just reflects the closeout price for last year's product. The price will not be that high from Euro sources - it's $1127 at Ribble.

http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/groupset/catid_3.jsp

[oldguy00]

Dave,

Not sure I understand your logic...
If a one tooth difference between 11-12, 12-13, 13-14 etc etc makes sense, then what is wrong with a 19-20?
It is still an extra gear, no?

[Dave]

Dave,

Not sure I understand your logic...
If a one tooth difference between 11-12, 12-13, 13-14 etc etc makes sense, then what is wrong with a 19-20?
It is still an extra gear, no?

The 1T shifts don't tell the whole story. What you need to consider is the percentage of change for each shift. An 11-12 shift is about 8% If you were pedaling at 100 rpm and shifted to the 11T, it would drop your cadence to about 92, at the same speed.

As the cogs get larger, the percentage change get smaller and smaller. The 19-20 shift would only be 5%. At some point, there's so little difference, that the shifts can scarcely be felt, so the smart thing to do is move on to the larger 2T shifts.

Campy has a gearing philosophy that they seem to follow. They rarely offer a cassette without the 16T cog, which would create a large 13% jump at the 15-17, and they also refuse to make cassettes with overly large jumps at any point, so they have never offered a 12-27 that would require a 21-24-27. With 11 speed, the could make the 12-27 with their standard 21-23-25-27. They have offered cassette with a 21-23-26-29 for a long time and continue to do so.

[oldpotatoe]

Can you tell us who imports and distributes Campy in the USA? Is it Campy directly or is it a separate company? Who do you have to deal with as a Pro Shop for Campy?

Some Campagnolo distributors

EuroAsia
Ochsner
Quality Bike Parts(Biggest)
Bicycle Tech International(BTI)
KHS(Not MTB company)
Gita
Torelli
Performance(Not Performance bike shops)

Campagnolo USA(NorthAmerica) is an office of Campagnolo SRL(Italy).

I talk to Campagnolo NA, Ochsner and QBP with warranty issues. I don't think you have to be a ProShop to do warranty, could be wrong, don't really know, been a Proshop since the first days of the program.

'ProShop' is mostly a recognition of Campagnolo knowledge, expertise and dedication to the brand.

[WickedWheels]

Dave,

Your LBS must LOVE you for all the plugs that UK mail order gets from you. Way to support the local economy (or the national one, for that matter)!

Personally, I think I'd rather buy a different group domestically than have to purchase something internationally if it's not available at a decent price domestically.


A 12-23 would makes no sense with 11 speed. With 10 speed, a 12-23 is a straight block all the way to the 19T. An 11 speed cassette would have a 19-20 shift that would be such a small percentage that it's not worthwhile.

Even the 18-19 shift is questionable. I had an 18T for a few years with a 12-21 9 speed, but when 10 speed came out, the initial offerings did not include a 12-23, so I got a 12-25, without the 18T. I never missed it.

The bottom line is that 11 speed offers nothing for those who ride the flatlands.

There have been a few improvements for 2011 Chorus. The chainring shifting ramps have been improved again, the shifters have firmer clicks and the brake pads and holders have been improved. The price difference just reflects the closeout price for last year's product. The price will not be that high from Euro sources - it's $1127 at Ribble.

http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/groupset/catid_3.jsp

[oldguy00]

Dave,

Your LBS must LOVE you for all the plugs that UK mail order gets from you. Way to support the local economy (or the national one, for that matter)!

Personally, I think I'd rather buy a different group domestically than have to purchase something internationally if it's not available at a decent price domestically.

probikekit.com
wiggle.uk
chainreactioncycles.com
lickbike.com

I order 75%+ of my stuff from these places.

I see no reason to give my LBS money for something I don't want. I also don't see why I should have to pay my LBS $600 + tax for a crankset that I can get for less than $300 from the UK.
I also don't like when I am actually willing to spend a few extra bucks at the LBS to buy something, they say they have to order it, and then 3 weeks later they tell me it wasn't ordered yet because they need a bigger order to justify the postage charge...
I shop at the LBS when the price is somewhat competitive and the item is in stock. Frankly, my LBS does me no favors. They don't sponsor me, they don't discount anything for me, they don't do repairs on short notice, they don't organize races or run a club. They are simply a business, and it is not my responsibility to keep them in business by paying twice as much for goods.

[FixedNotBroken]

Personally, I would rather spend a few hundred dollars more by buying it here locally then from over seas..you get the warranty and you support the US :)

[oldguy00]

Personally, I would rather spend a few hundred dollars more by buying it here locally then from over seas..you get the warranty and you support the US :)

For an entire bike, I agree. Would you pay $300 more for a crankset?
My LBS wants $2000 for a 2010 chorus 11 groupset.
I can get the same thing online for 1180.
I don't think I'm going to spend $800 on warranty repairs for components...

[leooooo]

For people building their own bikes, buying on UK sites and E-bay makes terribly more sense.
Don't even see how it's an argument.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=oldguy00] writes--"They don't sponsor me, they don't discount anything for me, they don't do repairs on short notice, they don't organize races or run a club." Plus you mention not ordering something cuz they have to accumulate a list or pay more for shipping.

It's interesting that you seem to equate what makes a 'good' bike shop are things that cost them money.

Yep, in biz to sell what they can a margin that keeps the lights on. Not many small bike shop owners driving M-B or zipping up to Aspen for the WE.

Deep discounts on things Campagnolo is not the LBS's fault, he ain't ripping you off..he lives w/i the constraints of wholesale.

I charge $1750 for a 2011 Chorus group, BTW-

Don't get angry at your bike shop. He prices according to wholesale and a margin to keep the lights on.

[oldguy00]

[QUOTE=oldguy00] writes--"They don't sponsor me, they don't discount anything for me, they don't do repairs on short notice, they don't organize races or run a club." Plus you mention not ordering something cuz they have to accumulate a list or pay more for shipping.

It's interesting that you seem to equate what makes a 'good' bike shop are things that cost them money.

Yep, in biz to sell what they can a margin that keeps the lights on. Not many small bike shop owners driving M-B or zipping up to Aspen for the WE.

Deep discounts on things Campagnolo is not the LBS's fault, he ain't ripping you off..he lives w/i the constraints of wholesale.


I didn't say anything about a bike shop being 'good' or 'bad'. Nor have I ever actually asked them for any favors, nor expected any. I like most of the folks at the LBS. If I were wealthy, I'd help out the local shop owner. I'm not.
I admire them for trying to run a business, really.
HOWEVER, again, it is not my responsibility to keep them in business.

I'd like to quit my current job and open a coffee business. I'm going to charge $25 per pound + shipping, minimum order of 5 pounds.
You will all order from me, right? Cause I'm into biking, and I'm just trying to feed my family...

Oh, for the record (no pun..), I have actually spent over 8k at my LBS over the past roughly 8 years. So I feel that I have supported them........but currently, I mostly mail order.

[jr59]

Guys, Most all the top of the line groups work well.

Ride what you like.

I will ride Campy on all my bikes. (I just switched my Surely CC to chours).

It works, and I like the way it looks. I just wish it would go faster. lol. I think I may have something to do with the latter.

[jr59]

[QUOTE=oldguy00] writes--"They don't sponsor me, they don't discount anything for me, they don't do repairs on short notice, they don't organize races or run a club." Plus you mention not ordering something cuz they have to accumulate a list or pay more for shipping.

It's interesting that you seem to equate what makes a 'good' bike shop are things that cost them money.

Yep, in biz to sell what they can a margin that keeps the lights on. Not many small bike shop owners driving M-B or zipping up to Aspen for the WE.

Deep discounts on things Campagnolo is not the LBS's fault, he ain't ripping you off..he lives w/i the constraints of wholesale.

I charge $1750 for a 2011 Chorus group, BTW-

Don't get angry at your bike shop. He prices according to wholesale and a margin to keep the lights on.


Price NEVER makes me do my buss. with a LBS. If price was the driving force, I would never go in a bike shop. Online is always cheaper.

Service is what makes me spend my $$ at my LBS. They understand that cheaper parts are out there. As I understand that they need to make a profit.
I could most times save about 10% on line. So I spend 10% more, but I get outstanding service, They come and get my bike to repair what I can not. If I have a question, they answer it with a smile, and a honest answer. All in all it's worth the extra %, for them to be there when I need them.

As a matter of fact, when I was ready to upgrade my commuter. My LBS asked me to give them the last chance to quote me on a new group. They asked me how low I found. We then agreed to a price that was 11% higher than online. I'm glad I used them because it was sent incorrectly from wherever they ordered it. No problem, they ordered next day the correct part. Installed it and delivered it. Is that worth 10% or so? To me it is.

[fourflys]

Service is what makes me spend my $$ at my LBS. .

exactly... agree 100%! I've said a few time that it will really suck when an online shopper needs that quick tube or part or ??? and runs down to the LBS to find it closed up...

I paid LBS money for my Chorus group 2 years ago, but I also got a free, professional install out of the deal and I know the job was done right and a lot better than I could have done it... home mechs can do it too and sometimes just as good, but I fear that level of home mech is few and far between most of the time... all depends on your LBS I guess...

[oldguy00]

Your LBS sounds a lot better than mine (in terms of service)! :beer:
Honestly, if the difference in prices were typically 10%, I'd always buy at the LBS. But that isn't the case where I am.

[fourflys]

Your LBS sounds a lot better than mine (in terms of service)! :beer:
Honestly, if the difference in prices were typically 10%, I'd always buy at the LBS. But that isn't the case where I am.

as I said, it depends on the LBS... I'm VERY fortunate to have 3 really good LBS's near me and one guy that just does service for great prices...

[leooooo]

but I fear that level of home mech is few and far between most of the time...

Real talk, it's putting a bike together, not brain surgery.........

Also would like to point out that most people who build their own bikes are probably very, very serious enthusiast. Given that, they will take far more care in building their own bike than any mech.

[forrestw]

Personally, I would rather spend a few hundred dollars more by buying it here locally then from over seas..you get the warranty and you support the US :)
And exactly what US thing am I supporting when 99% of what the LBS sells is made outside the US and most of that is made in the pacific rim? I've got little use for 'us/euro' manufacturers buying frames in china for $100 and building them up to $2000 road bikes, again using no US built components. When I built a frame early this season, Henry James managed to sell me on TrueTemper tubing, but it wasn't because of their spiel on made in the US, it was because their price was better than I was seeing on comparable Reynolds tubing.

Dave,

Your LBS must LOVE you for all the plugs that UK mail order gets from you. Way to support the local economy (or the national one, for that matter)!

Personally, I think I'd rather buy a different group domestically than have to purchase something internationally if it's not available at a decent price domestically.
I don't know if my LBS loves me but I do business with them when it makes sense. I have a lot of shops to do business with and the one I goto is the one where I've most consistently been able to find the parts I need. They also have the best mechanics around (I do 99.9% of my own work). I love the LBS, but I don't know if their business model is sustainable. I hope so because I value having a place that employs people who know what they're about.

I bought my Serotta there, but I put the group together with Campy bits purchased on Ebay; the new bits all came from the LBS, that came to hubs, spokes, rims and chain. I know for a fact the LBS owner wasn't happy about that but I'd been laid off and the plan to buy the groupset from them had to go.

[fourflys]

Real talk, it's putting a bike together, not brain surgery.........

Also would like to point out that most people who build their own bikes are probably very, very serious enthusiast. Given that, they will take far more care in building their own bike than any mech.

it's not about taking care... it's about knowing where the sweet spot for shifting is, the right length for cables, etc...

as I said, I'm sure there are plenty of people that can put a bike together... heck, I can get a bike riding, but I don't have the 30 years experience to make it ride just that much better... if you're happy with how you put a bike together, more power to you and I applaud you for being able to do it... I just know my limitations and don't mind paying the experts when I'm talking about a multi-thousand dollar bike...

[leooooo]

[QUOTE=fourflys]it's not about taking care... it's about knowing where the sweet spot for shifting is, the right length for cables, etc...
QUOTE]

It's all about taking care.

Knowing where the "sweet" spot is, length of cables, etc.. can be EASILY obtained through experience/asking in forums such as this/instructions/books/calling a friend/youtube has most every question answered with a video if anyone is illiterate.

[oldpotatoe]

Real talk, it's putting a bike together, not brain surgery.........

Also would like to point out that most people who build their own bikes are probably very, very serious enthusiast. Given that, they will take far more care in building their own bike than any mech.

My Aunt Matilda's mustache.....

That's a pretty big statement when doing your best job means they come back in. As a matter of fact, i really don't like working on my own bike but take a HUGE amount of pride being the local Campagnolo go to guy(and shimano also).

[FixedNotBroken]

To be honest, the only reason why I will pay the couple hundred dollars more is not only for the warranty and to support my LBS, but because of the service I get from my bike shop. They never sell me products at the price they sell to other customers because I come in so often, I hang out with the guys, and we have built relationships. The shop that I go to is amazing, and very customer friendly and not all about making the big bucks but in the end because of so many customers, they do quite well. I know that not every bike shop is like this but since the one that I go to is, I don't mind putting money into it. They just gave me a 2010 Record 11 group for $1,200..which beats anywhere else that I have heard of, even the Bay. I couldn't justify spending $500 more for the 2011 stuff, kind of ridiculous. Anyway, I am all about shopping online and finding the best prices but when it comes down to a few hundred dollars and supporting LBS's when you CAN, then I will. Whatever floats everyone's boats :)

[Dave]

Dave,

Your LBS must LOVE you for all the plugs that UK mail order gets from you. Way to support the local economy (or the national one, for that matter)!

Personally, I think I'd rather buy a different group domestically than have to purchase something internationally if it's not available at a decent price domestically.

I haven't bought anything more expensive than a water bottle from a LBS in the last 15 years. I buy everything mail order. I used to buy from several US sources until the 2009 parts came out in late '08, with price increases of 50-75%. Those same parts were being sold in the UK at the same price as 2008 parts, since the wholesale prices in Europe went up by 2% or less. LBS owners often claim that the retail prices from the UK or Germany are less than their wholesale price.

As far as I'm concerned, its a global market and I'll continue to use mail order. I don't care where the parts come from.

I'm supporting the local economy by building a new house, with me as the general contractor - breaking ground in a couple of months.

[WickedWheels]

And in addition to buying mail order you're advertising for them on a forum. I'm glad you don't live in my area or ride with my group.

I haven't bought anything more expensive than a water bottle from a LBS in the last 15 years. I buy everything mail order. I used to buy from several US sources until the 2009 parts came out in late '08, with price increases of 50-75%. Those same parts were being sold in the UK at the same price as 2008 parts, since the wholesale prices in Europe went up by 2% or less. LBS owners often claim that the retail prices from the UK or Germany are less than their wholesale price.

As far as I'm concerned, its a global market and I'll continue to use mail order. I don't care where the parts come from.

I'm supporting the local economy by building a new house, with me as the general contractor - breaking ground in a couple of months.

[oldguy00]

And in addition to buying mail order you're advertising for them on a forum. I'm glad you don't live in my area or ride with my group.

Likewise, I doubt the group I ride with would want you there to lecture them about how they should pay double for their bike so that you can pay rent..

[Dave]

I'm glad you don't live in my area or ride with my group.


Me too, if you're all that narrow minded.

[97CSI]

Me too, if you're all that narrow minded.You are always welcome to ride with us (as is everyone). We don't discriminate. Its all good.

[steampunk]

this thread has gone from "pick a groupset" to "mail order or LBS? where do you spend your money and why?"

[leooooo]

And in addition to buying mail order you're advertising for them on a forum. I'm glad you don't live in my area or ride with my group.

lol, judgemental on PEDs