way OT: Any lawyers in here? I need some legal advice

[bigmatt]

It is bike related as the problem is my former employer which was at a bike shop. The shop has basically closed down because the owner owes money to every distributor/bike company. We were sued earlier this year by one company and they of course won. The info for that is available online from the courts and on Dec. 16 Discovery will be held at the attorneys office. Is that they are trying to figure out what money/property he has so they can collect?

The main reason for this is I am also owed money along with two other employees. I was the only full time employee all summer long and worked open to close 7 days a week. I had one coworker that only worked weekends. I am owed two months pay ($3000+ at my measly hourly wage), one employee $500, and another around $900. The shop closed because I stopped going in to work after my last two checks bounced and I figured out how much he was behind in paying me. I still have a key to the shop and have went back a few times to make sure all of my stuff I had their is gone.

A few days after I stopped showing up I went there and the owner was there. I showed him and wrote out all the hours I was owed. He of course said he would pay me like all the lies I have heard out of his mouth over the past 2.5 yrs I worked there. I haven't heard from him since, and that was at the beginning of November when this all happened. I have tried multiple times to call him on his cell phone, but he doesn't answer and the voice mail box is full so I can't leave a message. I wanted to try and work something out because I would even take bikes, parts, or tools as payment instead of all cash (never going to take a check from him again).

What should I do? Any help is greatly appreciated.

[rcnute]

PM sent. Go get your money.

Ryan

[Dekonick]

Sick william or 'the squirrel' on him...

Man - Honestly this sucks. Hope it works out ok.

:hello:

[Uncle Jam's Army]

I don't practice in your state, but, if Michigan is anything like California, you can file a complaint with your state's Labor Board, without hiring a lawyer. A quick search yielded this:

http://www.michigan.gov/dleg/0,1607,7-154-27673-107123--,00.html

In California, your employer would be responsible for your unpaid wages as well as waiting time penalties for every day your wages are unpaid. Not sure about what remedies are available under Michigan law.

Good luck. I hope you get the full amount of your wages back.

[WickedWheels]

Probably bad advice, but I would go in and take bikes. Perhaps even leave a note saying that since you had $3000 store credit you decided to cash it in.

Technically, i think it's very illegal and may be considered theft... however, a guy that's that far in the hole probably won't pursue it. I'd take my chances and explain in court if necessary.

[soulspinner]

Probably bad advice, but I would go in and take bikes. Perhaps even leave a note saying that since you had $3000 store credit you decided to cash it in.

Technically, i think it's very illegal and may be considered theft... however, a guy that's that far in the hole probably won't pursue it. I'd take my chances and explain in court if necessary.

Thats called burglary/tresspassing, bad idea!

[rice rocket]

I'm sure Judge Judy would rule in your favor. ;)

[William]

Sick william or 'the squirrel' on him...

Man - Honestly this sucks. Hope it works out ok.

:hello:


Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap!!! :butt:

;)

William

[oldpotatoe]

It is bike related as the problem is my former employer which was at a bike shop. The shop has basically closed down because the owner owes money to every distributor/bike company. We were sued earlier this year by one company and they of course won. The info for that is available online from the courts and on Dec. 16 Discovery will be held at the attorneys office. Is that they are trying to figure out what money/property he has so they can collect?

The main reason for this is I am also owed money along with two other employees. I was the only full time employee all summer long and worked open to close 7 days a week. I had one coworker that only worked weekends. I am owed two months pay ($3000+ at my measly hourly wage), one employee $500, and another around $900. The shop closed because I stopped going in to work after my last two checks bounced and I figured out how much he was behind in paying me. I still have a key to the shop and have went back a few times to make sure all of my stuff I had their is gone.

A few days after I stopped showing up I went there and the owner was there. I showed him and wrote out all the hours I was owed. He of course said he would pay me like all the lies I have heard out of his mouth over the past 2.5 yrs I worked there. I haven't heard from him since, and that was at the beginning of November when this all happened. I have tried multiple times to call him on his cell phone, but he doesn't answer and the voice mail box is full so I can't leave a message. I wanted to try and work something out because I would even take bikes, parts, or tools as payment instead of all cash (never going to take a check from him again).

What should I do? Any help is greatly appreciated.

I'd say get a lawyer and now I'm gonna say something that probably most will object to BUT....

If he lied to you for 2.5 years, maybe you should have left sooner. NOT saying you are wrong and he is right BUT.....

Maybe the owner was a putz, poor owner and manager, and maybe he tried his best but got way far behind in the $ department and this is the result.(hows the economy in AnnArbor?). You may be out $3000 but he is probably going to lose his hat, ass and overcoat, particularly if he declares bankruptcy. If he has a persoanl guarantee for the rent, he is going to be on tap for the rent also. I feel for you both. But as a bike shop owner, there are few things more painful than watching your business fail. Not just the financial pain but also the emotional pain.

Lots of small business' failing, even here in a pretty healthy little town. Tough on everybody. If you can't get ahold of him to work ot a deal, get a lawyer. Not asking you to feel sorry for this guy, maybe just understand his position, probably far worse than yours..financially.

Helmet-ON
Flack jacket-ON

[veloduffer]

I would think that you are an unsecured creditor in the claims. Any lender with a lien on assets (bank) will have first shot at sale/liquidation proceeds. The remainder, if any, would be divided amongst the next in claim priority.

Inventory and fixtures sell for cents on the dollar. Most of the time, unsecured creditors in retail get very little back.

For your claim, I would not get a lawyer unless he/she is paid on contingency. Otherwise the fees would be additive to your pain.

[ultraman6970]

Why u did not ask the guy to pay you in merchandise from the beginning? It would be better for both of you specially if you can get tools more than bikes, some tools are expensive and you could get more money from them than from a cheap ass store bike now a days, or even you could work at home or something with those tools you know.

If you know where he lives, just go to his place and tell him that if he doesn't have money you could take merchandise and end with the history you know. Hard times everywhere and i bet he lost everything and maybe even his own house, I do have to add that he could have tell you the truth to start with.

Good luck.

[54ny77]

sounds like a job for.....

http://pophangover.com/images/soo-yoo-lawyer.jpg

[Richard]

I've been involved as a creditor in bankruptcies in NY. Can't speak for other states, but unpaid wages come first in line. Other creditors stand behind unpaid workers. Contact your department of labor NOW and discuss this with a representative. They can help even though they are the government. The merchandise is probably unavailable to the owner to use as I'm sure all assets are frozen. If he uses merchandise to pay you, he will be stealing and you will be liable to give give it back. Get the labor department to help you. They will.

[dave thompson]

I don't practice in your state, but, if Michigan is anything like California, you can file a complaint with your state's Labor Board, without hiring a lawyer. A quick search yielded this:

http://www.michigan.gov/dleg/0,1607,7-154-27673-107123--,00.html

In California, your employer would be responsible for your unpaid wages as well as waiting time penalties for every day your wages are unpaid. Not sure about what remedies are available under Michigan law.

Good luck. I hope you get the full amount of your wages back.
I've been involved as a creditor in bankruptcies in NY. Can't speak for other states, but unpaid wages come first in line. Other creditors stand behind unpaid workers. Contact your department of labor NOW and discuss this with a representative. They can help even though they are the government. The merchandise is probably unavailable to the owner to use as I'm sure all assets are frozen. If he uses merchandise to pay you, he will be stealing and you will be liable to give give it back. Get the labor department to help you. They will.

Best advice given!

[Sandy]

I'd say get a lawyer and now I'm gonna say something that probably most will object to BUT....

If he lied to you for 2.5 years, maybe you should have left sooner. NOT saying you are wrong and he is right BUT.....

Maybe the owner was a putz, poor owner and manager, and maybe he tried his best but got way far behind in the $ department and this is the result.(hows the economy in AnnArbor?). You may be out $3000 but he is probably going to lose his hat, ass and overcoat, particularly if he declares bankruptcy. If he has a persoanl guarantee for the rent, he is going to be on tap for the rent also. I feel for you both. But as a bike shop owner, there are few things more painful than watching your business fail. Not just the financial pain but also the emotional pain.

Lots of small business' failing, even here in a pretty healthy little town. Tough on everybody. If you can't get ahold of him to work ot a deal, get a lawyer. Not asking you to feel sorry for this guy, maybe just understand his position, probably far worse than yours..financially.

Helmet-ON
Flack jacket-ON


An important difference between bigmatt and the store owner- The store owner repeatedly lied, including lies to bigmatt, a seemingly remarkably loyal employee to the very end. Understandably, both bigmatt and the store owner have both financial losses and stress, but although the store owner has potential significantly larger losses, I am much more sensitive to bigmatt as he seems to have done nothing wrong and has not lied to employees or creditors. I say that as a former small business owner. Just tell it like it is and don't lie about it. Don't make promises that you never intend to keep.


Sandy

[Sandy]

I've been involved as a creditor in bankruptcies in NY. Can't speak for other states, but unpaid wages come first in line. Other creditors stand behind unpaid workers. Contact your department of labor NOW and discuss this with a representative. They can help even though they are the government. The merchandise is probably unavailable to the owner to use as I'm sure all assets are frozen. If he uses merchandise to pay you, he will be stealing and you will be liable to give give it back. Get the labor department to help you. They will.

Question, please: Do unpaid employees obligations come before Government obligations, such as unpaid taxes, and before liens on a business?


Sandy

[gemship]

An important difference between bigmatt and the store owner- The store owner repeatedly lied, including lies to bigmatt, a seemingly remarkably loyal employee to the very end. Understandably, both bigmatt and the store owner have both financial losses and stress, but although the store owner has potential significantly larger losses, I am much more sensitive to bigmatt as he seems to have done nothing wrong and has not lied to employees or creditors. I say that as a former small business owner. Just tell it like it is and don't lie about it. Don't make promises that you never intend to keep.


Sandy


I'm not sure why I'm quoting you except to say the Bigmatt's situation reminds me of a time I worked for some people at their business back in 96". We specialized in applying numbering and lettering to sports jerseys and had a number of accounts with pro sports teams in the NHL as well as their farm teams and pro shops and even the Boston Celtics. We even landed a account to a rather large amount of jerseys for a number of NHL teams, cheap knock off replica jerseys with vinyl lettering but it was just more than the company could chew. We had a ton of business and we were understaffed, the owners all worked there, three of them with the exception of a silent investor and there were four of us nonrelated employees. Well they bounced are paychecks on several occasions over a five month period, maybe six different times and they never once told us. It got to the point where I got smart and just started driving ten to thirty miles out of my way to cash the checks at their bank. Once I even drove ten miles over the speed limit on some back road and got caught all because I was on my way to their bank, I was pissed, oh the irony... The owners would always sheepishly provide the excuse that the funds should be there and not give any decent explanation why they weren't. One by one all four us gave up and quit working for them I was the second to the last to leave the job, I didn't like leaving, had nothing else lined up but what choice did I have? Had to get smart.

[Richard]

Sandy, in the banruptcies I was involved in (as a creditor, not a lawyer), wages came before all other creditors including those with liens. I wasn't party to any discussions with taxing authorities so I'm not sure where they stand. It probably depends on the state. In NY, employees tend to go to the head of the line. If wages are recovered, but the bankrupt employer fails to pay taxes on them, I think that would add a wrinkle to the problem, also.

[zap]

Question, please: Do unpaid employees obligations come before Government obligations, such as unpaid taxes, and before liens on a business?


Sandy

:eek:

super snappy serotta sandy................. :hello:

[oldpotatoe]

An important difference between bigmatt and the store owner- The store owner repeatedly lied, including lies to bigmatt, a seemingly remarkably loyal employee to the very end. Understandably, both bigmatt and the store owner have both financial losses and stress, but although the store owner has potential significantly larger losses, I am much more sensitive to bigmatt as he seems to have done nothing wrong and has not lied to employees or creditors. I say that as a former small business owner. Just tell it like it is and don't lie about it. Don't make promises that you never intend to keep.


Sandy

I'm not taking anybody's position, I feel for them both but how did the owner 'lie'? Was it, when asked by Bigmatt, 'how we doin?' and the owner said 'fine and dandy'. Or something else of a personal nature. If the later, i'd say Bigmatt should have left long ago and not be caught in this frag pattern.

As for 'doing nothing wrong', and saying things to creditors that may not be accurate is a little different than a personal LIE. Perhaps the owner did nothing 'wrong', just not enough business..tried his best and it just didn't work. Perhaps he tried to get the success back and told creditors he was 'working on it'.

Yep, the truth, even if painful, is best. I was lied to by my former business partner for 10 years until I discovered he was a thief and liar..then got rid of him.

But I'd like to know more about the owner, what he did and didn't do good or bad before I get the tar and feathers. I feel for them both but bas a small business owner(which is now doing well), I feel for the owner. This may dog him for years, may result in things like losing houses and such.

[bigmatt]

But I'd like to know more about the owner, what he did and didn't do good or bad before I get the tar and feathers. I feel for them both but bas a small business owner(which is now doing well), I feel for the owner. This may dog him for years, may result in things like losing houses and such.

The owner is the one to blame for his own finiancial situation. Most of the debt was from a year or two before. The suppliers delivery bikes and/or parts some times with terms. You sell those bikes and parts and normally you pay them what they are owed when the bill comes due. The owner never did the repaying. Even simple stuff like the utilities usually wasn't paid until it was shut off.

The owner wasn't much of an owner ever. I would often not see or hear from him for weeks. If you wanted to save your business the first thing I would do would be to be there. It never made sense to pay me to be there seven days a week when you could be there. I was often asked by friends/customers if he had another job because he was never there.

The business is an L.L.C. so his family will not be sleeping in a card board box down by the river. He also owns the building (well the bank does). The building itself is the most value of anything. All of the new bikes on the floor are old (08' models) as we haven't received new ones in 1.5 years.

The truth is I am surprised we did last this long. Last winter my three coworkers all left to go to another bike shop. I tried, but was never hired.

I tried calling him the other day and of course he didn't answer. But, the voice mail box had room so I left a message saying I wanted to work something out and would take tools, bikes, or parts as a possible payment.

[bking]

unpaid wages come first in any state. Head to the labor board. it is free to you. they have very large teeth, and can provide you with legal direction.
Don't waste time. While you may be first to get paid, it may take time.

[cnighbor1]

If employee still is selling items offer him this, sell somthing to you at $1.00 With a bill of sale. And make that item worth at retail what he owes you
Yes he got it wholesale for about half but you get at least 20% more so you close to what he owes you
Charles

[zmudshark]

I know Bigmatt and the shop in question. The owner was an absentee owner, at best, negligent at worse. There were times that they didn't have tubes or chains for repairs. It's sad, because they were once one of the best shops in town, and enjoyed a good reputation.

The owner seemed to just lose interest in the shop, and set out on a couple of failed ventures. I know that he would promise the employees pay, and often give them checks that only the first guy to the bank was able to cash. He basically strung them along with promises. Since there were/are no other jobs in the area, a promise was at least something, for a time.

I hope BigMatt gets in line to be made whole on wages. The owner has had chances to sell, but thinks the run down building is worth more than he paid for it years ago, which is just not the case.

[oldpotatoe]

The owner is the one to blame for his own finiancial situation. Most of the debt was from a year or two before. The suppliers delivery bikes and/or parts some times with terms. You sell those bikes and parts and normally you pay them what they are owed when the bill comes due. The owner never did the repaying. Even simple stuff like the utilities usually wasn't paid until it was shut off.

The owner wasn't much of an owner ever. I would often not see or hear from him for weeks. If you wanted to save your business the first thing I would do would be to be there. It never made sense to pay me to be there seven days a week when you could be there. I was often asked by friends/customers if he had another job because he was never there.

The business is an L.L.C. so his family will not be sleeping in a card board box down by the river. He also owns the building (well the bank does). The building itself is the most value of anything. All of the new bikes on the floor are old (08' models) as we haven't received new ones in 1.5 years.

The truth is I am surprised we did last this long. Last winter my three coworkers all left to go to another bike shop. I tried, but was never hired.

I tried calling him the other day and of course he didn't answer. But, the voice mail box had room so I left a message saying I wanted to work something out and would take tools, bikes, or parts as a possible payment.


Thanks for the added info. Absentee owners are almost never good owners. It doesn't sound like he was 'in the trenches' trying to make his business successful. Too bad for the area(never good to lose a bike shop, even a bad one) and for you. Get a lawyer that is paid contingency is my advice.

Good luck.....