A plan to stop certain motorist from buzzing me.

[toaster]

I've been riding the same loop these past couple of weeks and there's a certain motorist in a brown colored Scion XB that routinely drives one road on the way to work, school or whatever at the same near exact time.

The problem is he must be the type who thinks I have no business on the road on my bicycle so he gives me no safe passing margin and remains locked in a position in the middle of his lane thereby passing me by the narrowest of space. He's done this consistently at least 4 times or in other words, every time I've had the misfortune of sharing the road with him.

So, my plan is to wait in my car in order to follow him and get the license plate number. Also, I'm thinking that if I follow him to a red light I will get out a take a picture of his car and license plate. If he hops out and asks what I'm doing I'll respond:

"I'm taking a photo of your car because it's the only way I know that might get you to stop passing me in a very dangerous manner. I think your actions may change knowing you are now on record."

Comments?

[bicyclego]

While I can't say that I've ever had a recurring problem with a specific motorist I've certainly had problems with some motorist failing to provide the appropriate passing margin along with a whole list of other jack-assery; What cyclist hasn't?

Direct contact is sketchy. You never know what you're going to get from the other guy. Here we've had drivers/riders get into fisticuffs over this kind of thing.

Conversations with local law enforcement (they ticket cyclist here in Kansas City) when I challenge them to hold both cyclist AND motorist accountable generally nets me questions about whether I got their license plate and reported it. Naturally I explain it difficult to pull out my phone and snap a pic of a car speeding by at 2x my speed. And besides, it won't net the person a ticket anyway. (Maybe if they actually HIT someone it would be used as evidence of drivers lack of respect for cyclist...that is, if the police even bother to keep records.) A couple of times I've been able to catch a rude driver at a light and quite pointedly pull out my camera and take a picture of their license plate.

Well, I think it's only a matter of time before it's common that most cyclist ride with compact Hi-Def cameras recording their rides. Hard to refute the video as evidence (no he said-she said).

My other thought was, that if the police won't do anything, maybe a little peer pressure would. I thought that maybe a website whereby cyclist from a local club could post pictures/short videos of the infractions, along with a description as a form of public shaming.

[drewski]

To me this is almost a philosophical question on some level:

If this person is willing to crowd you out, why would this person not also
be the type to a have a gun, a bat in the glove box. I say this knowing that if I was in your shoes I would do the same exact thing.

I ride with a set of 400 lumen head and tail Dinottes and Thursday I was almost hit by a Fire truck with a multi story ladder rig. As a side note I did go by to the fire station and speak to the captain regarding this persons actions.

Yesterday I was riding and someone was texting and playing loud music
in their car. I had to yell at the top of my lungs "PAY ATTENTION"
to avoid getting a right hook. I usually some other words like a-hole
or yutz as well.

The point is that as cyclists we are constantly going to be up against
this problem. I really think drivers get into bad habits when they are driving.
Until the jurisprudence in our country holds drivers accountable for their
driving decisions.

I wrestle with this problem and started thinking maybe it would be wiser to say something like:

"Hello I am______. I am a cyclist and motorist in this community.
I would appreciate if you would not threaten my safety every time I ride.
After all I am a son, parent, student, member of this community. "

It is really hard for me not to get into warrior mode when I am on a bicycle.
My male hormones are racing when I am on a bicycle and its hard
to remain cool and collected so what I am suggesting is difficult.
Maybe they would not feel this compulsion to put your life at risk,
and would feel remorseful. When we get aggressive I think
this makes people feel less open to being restorative.

However having said that a aggressive drivers database
would be useful as well.




This situation also reminds of this poem:


Thich Nhat Hanh Call Me by my real name

Don't say that I will depart tomorrow --
even today I am still arriving.

Look deeply: every second I am arriving
to be a bud on a Spring branch,
to be a tiny bird, with still-fragile wings,
learning to sing in my new nest,
to be a caterpillar in the heart of a flower,
to be a jewel hiding itself in a stone.

I still arrive, in order to laugh and to cry,
to fear and to hope.

The rhythm of my heart is the birth and death
of all that is alive.

I am the mayfly metamorphosing
on the surface of the river.
And I am the bird
that swoops down to swallow the mayfly.

I am the frog swimming happily
in the clear water of a pond.
And I am the grass-snake
that silently feeds itself on the frog.

I am the child in Uganda, all skin and bones,
my legs as thin as bamboo sticks.
And I am the arms merchant,
selling deadly weapons to Uganda.

I am the twelve-year-old girl,
refugee on a small boat,
who throws herself into the ocean
after being raped by a sea pirate.
And I am the pirate,
my heart not yet capable
of seeing and loving.

I am a member of the politburo,
with plenty of power in my hands.
And I am the man who has to pay
his "debt of blood" to my people
dying slowly in a forced-labor camp.

My joy is like Spring, so warm
it makes flowers bloom all over the Earth.
My pain is like a river of tears,
so vast it fills the four oceans.

Please call me by my true names,
so I can hear all my cries and my laughter at once,
so I can see that my joy and pain are one.

Please call me by my true names,
so I can wake up,
and so the door of my heart
can be left open,
the door of compassion.

[zap]

snip

Well, I think it's only a matter of time before it's common that most cyclist ride with compact Hi-Def cameras recording their rides. Hard to refute the video as evidence (no he said-she said).



Illegal in the State of Merryland without the other parties approval. Pictures are ok.

[csm]

anybody that drives a Scion xb is probably a punk.

[stephenmarklay]

snip



Illegal in the State of Merryland without the other parties approval. Pictures are ok.

Can't imagine that the law would not allow this. I am understand you can not covertly record another -however if another were to fall into the picture (driving like an ass) I doubt he would be in any trouble.


If it were me I would make an attempt at getting the number without a picture but I would already drive (not call) the local police station to explain the "reckless driving" which is likely a punishable offense in your state.

[dekindy]

snip



Illegal in the State of Merryland without the other parties approval. Pictures are ok.

Please explain. Video cameras are everywhere.

[thwart]

Thanks for sharing the poem.

Good way to start the day...

[zap]

Note that my post was in response to an individuals video camera which in many cases audio is on.

There appears to be conflicting views regarding Marylands wiretapping laws.

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/revise-the-maryland-wiretap-law/

Just saying, be careful out there regardless.

[Elefantino]

There are more elegant solutions.

Like this. (http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/bond-bicycle-comes-equipped-with-ejector-seat-flamthrower)

Shaken, not stirred, indeed.

[drewski]

The ejector seat needs a bit of work.

There are more elegant solutions.

Like this. (http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/bond-bicycle-comes-equipped-with-ejector-seat-flamthrower)

Shaken, not stirred, indeed.

[Steve in SLO]

I was driving with my wife once and she passed a cyclist closer than I would have (maybe 18" away). When I asked her why she hadn't steered to the left side of the lane, she said "I gave him plenty of room". When I asked her if she ever moved across the left lane line to give a cyclist room when she passed, she said "No, that would be illegal".
She rides some herself. Knowing that are many others less friendly to cyclists than her, I was not reasurred.

[TMB]

I'm a little unclear why you think you would have to get out of the car to take a picture?

If you follow the guy and pull up behind him in traffic or at a light, you can take a useable picture without ever opening your car door.

[Nil Else]

Nice Poem.

Yes, punks, I agree. It's in their DNA and they come in all forms and ages.

[rwsaunders]

Get the plate number and call the police. Insist that someone contact the motorist and that you want to hear of the follow-up. It works.

[drewski]

Now that I vented and gave support and mulled this over with the Mrs.

1. This person is troubled. If you can start riding with a buddy.
We as bicyclists don't have a chance when (car) + (unbalanced driver)
are part of the equation. Avoid this person and change your route as \
well.
2. When you get the plate # keep reporting to the police.
3. Stay vigilant.

I am writing this down to keep this advice present in mind. Since I really,
really need to do these things.

Andrew


I've been riding the same loop these past couple of weeks and there's a certain motorist in a brown colored Scion XB that routinely drives one road on the way to work, school or whatever at the same near exact time.

The problem is he must be the type who thinks I have no business on the road on my bicycle so he gives me no safe passing margin and remains locked in a position in the middle of his lane thereby passing me by the narrowest of space. He's done this consistently at least 4 times or in other words, every time I've had the misfortune of sharing the road with him.

So, my plan is to wait in my car in order to follow him and get the license plate number. Also, I'm thinking that if I follow him to a red light I will get out a take a picture of his car and license plate. If he hops out and asks what I'm doing I'll respond:

"I'm taking a photo of your car because it's the only way I know that might get you to stop passing me in a very dangerous manner. I think your actions may change knowing you are now on record."

Comments?

[gasman]

I have an unorthodox technique that I've used in a similar situation where on my commute to work every morning there was someone who came way to close with an almost empty road. I call it my "wobbly bike" technique. When I hear the car in the distance i start to ride erratically and not hold a straight line. When I know they are getting close I make sure I am by the right hand side of the road. The driver must think I can't ride a straight line moved way to the left and I had plenty of room. I've used several other times and it works well. But I have only tried it with a single car and not on a busy road.

[rugbysecondrow]

If he is maintaining his lane integrity, not driving aggressively, not threatening you, what is the issue? Frankly, You might prefer more space, but he might think he is passing you with room to spare and maintaining a straight line is the most predictable thing to do. I am not sure what you would expect law enforcement to, it's not like he is swerving into you or anything.

Maybe context of the road is something I am missing, but I don't see a big issue here.

[drewski]

I have an unorthodox technique that I've used in a similar situation where on my commute to work every morning there was someone who came way to close with an almost empty road. I call it my "wobbly bike" technique. When I hear the car in the distance i start to ride erratically and not hold a straight line. When I know they are getting close I make sure I am by the right hand side of the road. The driver must think I can't ride a straight line moved way to the left and I had plenty of room. I've used several other times and it works well. But I have only tried it with a single car and not on a busy road.

I do the samething and use a rear view.

[Craig Ryan]

I have an unorthodox technique that I've used in a similar situation where on my commute to work every morning there was someone who came way to close with an almost empty road. I call it my "wobbly bike" technique. When I hear the car in the distance i start to ride erratically and not hold a straight line. When I know they are getting close I make sure I am by the right hand side of the road. The driver must think I can't ride a straight line moved way to the left and I had plenty of room. I've used several other times and it works well. But I have only tried it with a single car and not on a busy road.

This works! Alternatively, take more command of your lane. When you know you are being passed you can ease right to give yourself more room. I'm assuming the conditions would allow this.

[RPS]

If he is maintaining his lane integrity, not driving aggressively, not threatening you, what is the issue? Frankly, You might prefer more space, but he might think he is passing you with room to spare and maintaining a straight line is the most predictable thing to do. I am not sure what you would expect law enforcement to, it's not like he is swerving into you or anything.

Maybe context of the road is something I am missing, but I don't see a big issue here.
Playing Devil's advocate, do you think it's OK if he drives straight and leaves 12 inches of clearance? :confused:

Personally, I couldn't care less what a driver may consider "safe" if it's not appropriate. Some states have passed 3-foot minimum laws and that seems reasonable to me. Besides, if the car is that small and the rider is somewhat close to the curb, leaving 3 feet clear shouldn't be much of an issue at all unless the driver just wants to make a dumbass point. And if so, I'd do something about it.

[Mr. Squirrel]

even though mr. william and i do not get along, you have to admire his nuts (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=32537&highlight=honda) . :)

mr. squirrel

[unwell_ultra]

I was driving with my wife once and she passed a cyclist closer than I would have (maybe 18" away). When I asked her why she hadn't steered to the left side of the lane, she said "I gave him plenty of room". When I asked her if she ever moved across the left lane line to give a cyclist room when she passed, she said "No, that would be illegal".
She rides some herself. Knowing that are many others less friendly to cyclists than her, I was not reasurred.

I find it hard to believe a police officer would issue a ticket to a motorist for crossing into the left lane for giving a cyclist more space. Even if the motorist crossed a solid line but you never know.

The CA DMV code also states a motorist can't pass a slower vehicle (cyclist?) until it's safe to do so.

I'm riding a little spooked right now. End of July I was hit by a 4x4 post hanging off the side of a passing truck. Open fractured clavicle which needed surgery to fixate the clavicle. Still not 100% healed but well enough my Dr. let me back on the road in Sept.

Recently I've had 2 close calls. A dually PU that passed me on a short, narrow curvy climb. I moved as far right as I could and I was still almost pushed off the road. I yelled, "give me some room"! and he yelled "get off the road". In response I yelled "you get off the road". Well he stopped at the summit and got out of his truck. Then he thought better of it and got back in his truck and left. I did get his license plate number.

The second incident was in town and a lot scarier. I was doing 20 mph on a narrow, curvy street with a slight descent. A motorist passed me and almost immediately hit the brakes to make a right turn. I nearly rear ended them. I was so mad I went back and screamed at them. Not very productive but the adrenaline was in overdrive.

For the most part it seems that where I live and ride motorists seem to be more patient and willing to give me space. Hope it continues.

[Lifelover]

If he is maintaining his lane integrity, not driving aggressively, not threatening you, what is the issue? Frankly, You might prefer more space, but he might think he is passing you with room to spare and maintaining a straight line is the most predictable thing to do. I am not sure what you would expect law enforcement to, it's not like he is swerving into you or anything.

Maybe context of the road is something I am missing, but I don't see a big issue here.


+1 Live with it or find some place else to drive. If you (or anyone) is riding where it is not safe to do so, you are a fool!

Many, many people who have ****ty attitudes would just buzz you closer next time. A phone call from the cops is meaning less.

Piss him off too much and he will just get in a different car and run you off the road.

[rugbysecondrow]

Playing Devil's advocate, do you think it's OK if he drives straight and leaves 12 inches of clearance? :confused:

Personally, I couldn't care less what a driver may consider "safe" if it's not appropriate. Some states have passed 3-foot minimum laws and that seems reasonable to me. Besides, if the car is that small and the rider is somewhat close to the curb, leaving 3 feet clear shouldn't be much of an issue at all unless the driver just wants to make a dumbass point. And if so, I'd do something about it.

If the car is that small and driving down the middle of the lane, ther should be room, right? I get wanting to be and feel safe, but let's separate out real vs. Percieved danger. Would it be better if he moved over some, likely yes. Is it worth getting the law involved, nope. I am all for getting rid of and dealing with aggressive drivers and I would (and do) have little patience for it, but I just don't see it here, sorry. I think many people are bring their preconceived ideas to play here when there has been no aggression or douch bagginess exhibited, IMO of course.

[RPS]

I think many people are bring their preconceived ideas to play here when there has been no aggression or douch bagginess exhibited, IMO of course.
Agreed, but my question remains. How can we define lack of "aggression" if we don't first define what is an appropriate distance to pass? To me aggression includes passing too closely, and is not just going out of their way to come/pass closer (in my opinion of course).

The OP didn't quantify in inches and feet what the "buzzing" distance was, but apparently he only has a problem with one driver. That says a little that this particular driver is different. The question in my mind is at what point does being a different type of driver remain OK and when does it cross a line.

[bicyclego]

snip



Illegal in the State of Merryland without the other parties approval. Pictures are ok.

How's it illegal in Maryland to record video and post it? Let's say, for example, you're walking down the street recording video of your family. You see cars, along with the license plates, in the shot. If you post it, are you in violation of the law?

[bicyclego]

If he is maintaining his lane integrity, not driving aggressively, not threatening you, what is the issue? Frankly, You might prefer more space, but he might think he is passing you with room to spare and maintaining a straight line is the most predictable thing to do. I am not sure what you would expect law enforcement to, it's not like he is swerving into you or anything.

Maybe context of the road is something I am missing, but I don't see a big issue here.

Missouri, for example, has a 3ft law. If they're passing closer than 3ft they'd be in violation of the law.

It's not hard to tell when folks are being aggressive. I can usually tell when they're being jerks, or just not aware how close they are...typically, it seems to me, that there's a lot of engine revving and acceleration involved.

[dimsy]

this whole video camera thing was touched on when there was a thread about videotaping TSA checkpoints. generally, if you're out in public, you can videotape anything you want, with audio. in the confines of someones personal space (read home, office, etc...) is when it would be illegal. in some areas, it's illegal to do any kind of video taping of law enforcement.

think about it like this... if someone is out, lets say videotaping their vacation, and the camera happens to catch a crime in action, lets say, a motorist hitting a cyclist... well then i doubt that the person who caught it on tape could be brought up on any charges as it was in public space when it occurred. I'm no lawyer, but this is my understanding of videotaping in public.

-H

on second thought, i'm not sure that it was a thread about the videotaping, but rather just about the TSA in general and a references article made mention of the videotaping.

[rice rocket]

+1 Live with it or find some place else to drive. If you (or anyone) is riding where it is not safe to do so, you are a fool!

Many, many people who have ****ty attitudes would just buzz you closer next time. A phone call from the cops is meaning less.

Piss him off too much and he will just get in a different car and run you off the road.

Yeah, I'm on this boat too.

Consider yourself lucky it's just buzzing. I've had **** thrown at me, like tissue boxes, magazines, bottles, etc. Pittsburghers aren't shy about expressing their displeasure (whether warranted or not).

[Bruce K]

Not trying to drift this thread but a buddy got knocked down by the mirror of a pickup in a hit and run when the driver "held his line" and didn't drift left to give appropriate room.

Forutnately he wasn't hurt and got a description of the pickup and driver but no plate.

He called the local police and they basically said if he wasn't hurt there was little they could do.

The moral there is if you go down, stay down and then call the police. Apparently injury gets you action. Can you say "My neck hurts"?

BK

[Louis]

+1 Live with it or find some place else to drive. If you (or anyone) is riding where it is not safe to do so, you are a fool!

It's not an either-or situation. No road is 100% safe. If we were to be 100% safe from cars the only place we would have to ride are the bike trails.

By the way, that's an interesting typo on your part. Do you think the drivers will agree? I know the cyclists will. ;)

[BumbleBeeDave]

snip

Illegal in the State of Merryland without the other parties approval. Pictures are ok.

. . . but there is a long list of state and federal precedents relating to expectations of privacy and lack thereof if you are out in any place defined as public.

I have lots of experience with this, having been in photojournalism for 30 years. If they are in public--especially on a public street--you can make still or video of them. Any law passed by Maryland is good only until someone challenges it. More likely it's like the helmet law here in NY state and various state's 3 foot passing clearance laws--totally unenforceable but passed by politicians eager to be able to claim they have done something to solve a problem.

BBD

[rugbysecondrow]

Agreed, but my question remains. How can we define lack of "aggression" if we don't first define what is an appropriate distance to pass? To me aggression includes passing too closely, and is not just going out of their way to come/pass closer (in my opinion of course).

The OP didn't quantify in inches and feet what the "buzzing" distance was, but apparently he only has a problem with one driver. That says a little that this particular driver is different. The question in my mind is at what point does being a different type of driver remain OK and when does it cross a line.
I don't think asking for a definition for lack of aggression is appropriate, but asking, what is aggression is more apt. Frankly, I think aggression is weaving, yelling, swerving, honking etc. A driver driving straight in the middle of the lane in a micro vehicle does not fit this description.

There are more variables, shoulder width, number of lanes, oncoming traffic etc. I trust that the op thinks it's dangerous for him, but I also think he is being more sensitive then I might be. Either way, what will law enforcement do? If there is no three foot law and he is not being aggressive, seems you just have to deal with it.

[RPS]

+1 Live with it or find some place else to drive. If you (or anyone) is riding where it is not safe to do so, you are a fool!

Many, many people who have ****ty attitudes would just buzz you closer next time. A phone call from the cops is meaning less.

Piss him off too much and he will just get in a different car and run you off the road.
Very true, but likewise I can get in my car and follow him to see where he is going without him knowing I'm the cyclist he's been screwing with. A nicely stated but firm notice that crap can go both ways and that there will be consequences will make any bully think twice.

[gemship]

I know this wouldn't work for most everybody else but I thought about that three foot law rule and wondered what it may be like to fix some flexible pole on the left side of my rear bike rack/basket set up with a big obnoxious orange flag.

[Bruce K]

That would be great until some jerk intentionally leans a bumper into your pole and you either find yourself going 50 or off in a ditch.

BK

[gemship]

thats why you have to make it a flexible pole, I was actually thinking it will probably just snap off and do some damage to their paint. I imagine if they hit though I'd probably be already all done.

fwiw, I don't get buzzed too often. Just lucky.

[unwell_ultra]

[QUOTE=RPS]Agreed, but my question remains. How can we define lack of "aggression" if we don't first define what is an appropriate distance to pass? To me aggression includes passing too closely, and is not just going out of their way to come/pass closer (in my opinion of course).

Agreed. Passing too close is aggressive behavior!

[oliver1850]

I was driving with my wife once and she passed a cyclist closer than I would have (maybe 18" away). When I asked her why she hadn't steered to the left side of the lane, she said "I gave him plenty of room". When I asked her if she ever moved across the left lane line to give a cyclist room when she passed, she said "No, that would be illegal".
She rides some herself. Knowing that are many others less friendly to cyclists than her, I was not reasurred.

Did you ask her if she ever thought about what might happen if the cyclist swerved around a broken bottle at the time she was passing? Or if someone left a skewer loose and the wheel picked that moment to come out of the dropouts?

[eddief]

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[champ]

First I would check if your state has a minimum passing distance law for pedestrians. Many states are adopting 3ft laws. I have called 911 because of aggressive or threatening drivers a few times and the local police actually did something about - probably because the law allows them to prosecute drivers who violate the passing law. Before the law they didnt do much about driver/cyclist problems unless someone was hurt. If the police can bring in revenue from a ticket they are going to act on it. If not then its a nuisance to them. As for his license plate number why not just remember it and write it down next time he drives past you? If you have a passing law then you can do something about it if not then you are risking having him call the cops on you for following him in your car. The helmet-mounted HD camera is a good idea and, surprisingly, they arent expensive.

[gdw]

No offense guys but mounting a camera on your bike or head as a means of dealing with aggressive drivers is pretty pathetic and an indication that it's time to switch to a safer pastime like badmitton or knitting.

Memorize the plate number and call the police if you're being buzzed by the same aggressive driver on multiple occasions. If they can't help you and you're afraid of getting hit, find a different route to ride.

[weisan]

just for the record, it's b-a-d-m-i-n-t-o-n.

I can't bear to see it butchered, it's the sports I grew up with. If I am not riding, I would definitely be playing badminton. :p :hello:

But I agree with gdw-pal overall.

[gdw]

Thanks for the information. I have nothing against the game/sport and hope that I'm correct in believing that participants rarely encounter aggressive drivers during a match. :beer:

[bicyclego]

No offense guys but mounting a camera on your bike or head as a means of dealing with aggressive drivers is pretty pathetic...


Well, the point I was making was this...the technology is getting cheap and compact enough that it may be possible, with some outing, to basically get people to behave. If the camera cost $50 and is small enough to wear then what's the big deal?

There have been people in this town who have been killed, a grandfather and grand-daughter in one instance, and the guy got off with a fine. Or, in another instance, a guy in a Hummer stormed across his lawn and others and and assaulted a couple fellows because they yelled at him in similar fashion as some folks here have said they do and the cops sided with the DRIVER OF THE HUMMER! (I believe, ultimately, he did get prosecuted, but it didn't amount to much.)

Look, folks don't drive the speed limit (or near it) because they want to; They drive it because they fear retribution (from the police). The only way to avoid the I said-they said arguments is to have evidence. If they think there's a possibility that they might be recorded and it might be turned into the police as evidence they might behave.

Lord knows I don't like the idea of needing to do this, but honestly, many of these folks DON'T GIVE A S**T ABOUT YOUR/MINE/OTHERS LIVES IF YOU'RE ON A BIKE!

[konstantkarma]

This works! Alternatively, take more command of your lane. When you know you are being passed you can ease right to give yourself more room. I'm assuming the conditions would allow this.

Ditto. Mirrors help identify drivers wandering right. A slight wobble and claim to the lane with a rightward Swoosh when the vehicle is close. 9/10 the car yields.

CLAIM THE LANE. It's yours.

[rugbysecondrow]

Ditto. Mirrors help identify drivers wandering right. A slight wobble and claim to the lane with a rightward Swoosh when the vehicle is close. 9/10 the car yields.

CLAIM THE LANE. It's yours.
Is it?

[gdw]

Use commonsense folks. How do you think a jury would interpret the "wobbly cyclist" strategy if you actually were hit by a passing motorist? I'd bet that most would feel you got what you deserved and any attorney who passed the bar before his third try would advise you to can the "claim the lane" speech as well.

[bicyclego]

"Wobbly" is what got the fellow who killed two people in one swoop off the hook. Even though all the evidence and elements of his own testimony indicated he did not act with all due care (It wasn't his "style" to move over for cyclists, despite the law), his claim that the riders basically swung out in front of him, was enough for the jury to let him off the hook.

[Lifelover]

Use commonsense folks. How do you think a jury would interpret the "wobbly cyclist" strategy if you actually were hit by a passing motorist? I'd bet that most would feel you got what you deserved and any attorney who passed the bar before his third try would advise you to can the "claim the lane" speech as well.

+1

"Claim the Lane" as a Mantra is one of the most fool hearty thinks I have ver heard.

[fogrider]

take a car one day and follow him to where he's going...work, school, whatever. the next day, ride your bike and if he does the same, the next day show up with your bike at his work, school, whatever and confront him after he has parked. don't get too close to him, take a picture of him and his car and say thats a nice paint job on the car and ride away. that will make him wet his pants. but I would find a different route.

personally, I would not ride where there are many cars unless there is bike lane or shoulder unless I can keep the same speed as cars. the great thing about bikes, they can go cars can't.

[Ray]

+1

"Claim the Lane" as a Mantra is one of the most fool hearty thinks I have ver heard.
Except it works and its legal. As with anything, there are times to use it and times not to. But if I'm in a position where a pass would be sketchy, I'm in the middle of the lane. First, it discourages unsafe passes. Second, when the following driver sees its clear to pass, he or she will go around me anyway. And when they do, I have room to drift right to give myself more of a safety margin. I'm sure I've pissed off a few drivers who don't know the law, but I have yet to come across one that'w willing to just run me down. Now, I wouldn't use this on a busy multi-lane suburban road where everyone is going 60 miles per hour, but I don't ride on those unless they have really wide shoulders. But on the narrow two lane roads I spend most of my time on, its the best approach. And it sounded like this was the situation in the OP, but I guess I'm making an assumption there...

If you try to make it easier for people to pass you, they'll pass you more often, including when its not safe to do so. If you make it harder, they'll be sure they're not pulling into a head-on before they go. And also, when I'm in the lane going around a blind curve (and I'm ALWAYS in the lane going into a blind curve), once I get around and can see if its clear or open, I'll hand motion to the driver behind me to either wait or to pass and if its to pass, I'll move partly to the right also to make it easier. 99.9% of drivers seem to appreciate this and many give me a little toot on the horn as they go past and/or a friendly wave. And I've never had anyone do anything more aggressive in response than to ignore me.

Taking the lane isn't an act of aggression - its an act of self-defense.

-Ray

[Dekonick]

Except it works and its legal. As with anything, there are times to use it and times not to. But if I'm in a position where a pass would be sketchy, I'm in the middle of the lane. First, it discourages unsafe passes. Second, when the following driver sees its clear to pass, he or she will go around me anyway. And when they do, I have room to drift right to give myself more of a safety margin. I'm sure I've pissed off a few drivers who don't know the law, but I have yet to come across one that'w willing to just run me down. Now, I wouldn't use this on a busy multi-lane suburban road where everyone is going 60 miles per hour, but I don't ride on those unless they have really wide shoulders. But on the narrow two lane roads I spend most of my time on, its the best approach. And it sounded like this was the situation in the OP, but I guess I'm making an assumption there...

If you try to make it easier for people to pass you, they'll pass you more often, including when its not safe to do so. If you make it harder, they'll be sure they're not pulling into a head-on before they go. And also, when I'm in the lane going around a blind curve (and I'm ALWAYS in the lane going into a blind curve), once I get around and can see if its clear or open, I'll hand motion to the driver behind me to either wait or to pass and if its to pass, I'll move partly to the right also to make it easier. 99.9% of drivers seem to appreciate this and many give me a little toot on the horn as they go past and/or a friendly wave. And I've never had anyone do anything more aggressive in response than to ignore me.

Taking the lane isn't an act of aggression - its an act of self-defense.

-Ray

Agreed. It also helps to motion to motorists to stay back when unsafe. Then, when clear, motion it is safe to pass and make room. I find this actually gets me many thanks from drivers as they pass.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . but I have yet to come across one that's willing to just run me down.

. . . it only takes one.

Personally, I think a lot of drivers who do pass too close are just ignorant. They have no concept whatsoever of what it's like from your point of view as a rider to have something like pass so close. I think 99% of them would be scared sh*tless if they suddenly had to change places with you.

Along with that ignorance of what it's like from your point of view goes an ignorance of the law and/or common sense. They've been taught again and again that a double-yellow line means don't cross it--for any reason. They just can't make the connection that if it's a wide-open road and they can see for a half mile it's OK to cross that double yellow to give you more room.

BBD

[bicyclego]

No wonder folks are getting killed, all this talk of wobbly riding. I'll take a close call and being alive over wobbly and dead any day. If anything, I believe it's my ability to experience a close call without freaking out that has served me best over the years; Being able to hold a good line in varying conditions is (mho) the mark of an experienced, skilled cyclist. It's the thing I notice first when new or unskilled riders are on the road.

Counting on a driver to react a certain way, when pressed, is pressing your luck.

Turns out, not wearing a helmet buys you more room too. So does being a woman. So, here's my suggestion: Ride erratically, without a helmet, but with a wig, maybe a nice long ponytail. :D That'd be good for another six inches!

I do agree with claiming the lane. I ride typically along the passenger-side wheel line. This forces folks to go wider to pass (they're jerks at times, but often not cold blooded killers, right?) and I 've got room to move right, thus giving me adequate space and marginally more control.

[Steve in SLO]

I was driving with my wife once and she passed a cyclist closer than I would have (maybe 18" away). When I asked her why she hadn't steered to the left side of the lane, she said "I gave him plenty of room". When I asked her if she ever moved across the left lane line to give a cyclist room when she passed, she said "No, that would be illegal".
She rides some herself. Knowing that are many others less friendly to cyclists than her, I was not reasurred.
My point in retelling this was that even a person who rides,loves a cyclist and harbors no ill-will towards cyclists can drive too close and be misinformed about the legality of giving us room.

FWIW, I use a variation of gasman's "wobbly" technique along our 2 lane backroads: I ride in a straight line about 2/3 to the right and move to the right when I see a car coming up in my mirror. The first car in line invariably moves to the left by my action (nobody wants to ruin their paint). Subsequent cars in line who haven't seen me are more the danger.

By the way, I ride a Viewpoint mirror mounted on the inside of my glasses to avoid being called "tourist" and "Fred" by my buddies.

[Ray]

. . . it only takes one.

True, but I'd rather take my chances on the exceedingly rare homicidal maniac doing me in on purpose (given that he'd probably find a way to off me anyway) than by giving a lot of well intentioned but not particularly knowledgeable drivers a much better chance of killing me accidentally. If you guide their actions by limiting their choices a bit, you improve your odds considerably. The few times I've come closest to eating it over the years were when my mind was wandering and I was too close to the edge and some fool decided a horrible time to pass was actually a GREAT time to pass - by giving him that opportunity I nearly got myself and any number of other folks killed. Its only happened a few times but it definitely gets my attention and it was the SAME mistake each time!

-Ray

[jimcav]

even if all you do is follow him and very nicely inform him you feel endangered by his passing, and would appreciate more room; you never know how he will react. I've been riding since i was 11, have been run off the road, had beer bottles thrown at me, etc. I pick very, very few battles. I ride with a very sharp, easy to open knife (mainly to cut off a completely ruined tubular); but it is also a just in case. if i had a concealed carry permit i would ride with a gun.

I ride in the right 1/3 of the lane, never the shoulder unless it is an road with decent amount (my judgment) of traffic both ways. The close calls i have had were never where i was in the lane, always when i was on the shoulder--plus i get more flats there.
I use a sprint tech mirror on the end of my left drop--use it so much miss it now when i race--anyway, makes it easy to get over and back out if needed.

a car will always win, so my riding is always aggressively defensive. not much can be done if it is a drunk, texter, etc; but if you decide to follow, confront, etc--even just talking to the guy could be seen as conflict or challenge by him--so if you initiate anything--be prepared. not sure if an anonymous note or call from police will really change his behavior, but that is worth a try. maybe he has a best friend at the station who tells him it was you though--you never know how these things turn out. my advice is get a mirror and ride a little to the left of your current line

good luck
jim

[BumbleBeeDave]

True, but I'd rather take my chances on the exceedingly rare homicidal maniac doing me in on purpose (given that he'd probably find a way to off me anyway) than by giving a lot of well intentioned but not particularly knowledgeable drivers a much better chance of killing me accidentally

I'm not worried about the homicidal maniac. I'm worried about the 80 year old with bad vision who's yakking to his wife on his cell phone with one hand and sucking on his Starbuck's with the other while driving with his knees.

BBD

[xjoex]

I'm not worried about the homicidal maniac. I'm worried about the 80 year old with bad vision who's yakking to his wife on his cell phone with one hand and sucking on his Starbuck's with the other while driving with his knees.

BBD

BING BING BING - We have a winner. This is why I stopped commuting by bike. Too many close calls, and I have been commuting by bike for the better part of 15 years(part of this time I was car free, and a courier) but people don't pay attention, they are texting, checking email, yelling at their kids, drinking coffee and arguing on the phone with their friend about the score in the football game. Plus it enrages me that they get off with a slap on the wrist if they kill a cyclist.

This may be a localized phenomena, it is probably better in Portland and similar areas .

-Joe

[gdw]

"True, but I'd rather take my chances on the exceedingly rare homicidal maniac doing me in on purpose (given that he'd probably find a way to off me anyway) than by giving a lot of well intentioned but not particularly knowledgeable drivers a much better chance of killing me accidentally "



The one who got me was a student on her cellphone and fortunately she only sideswiped me since I was riding well to the right. I would have ended up as a hood ornament on her Subaru if I had played the wobble, take your lane game because she was totally into her conversion and never saw me until after contact. The incident occurred on one of the most popular climbs in our town, in broad daylight, on a section of road where cyclists are very easy to spot.

[jwb96]

Agreed, but my question remains. How can we define lack of "aggression" if we don't first define what is an appropriate distance to pass? To me aggression includes passing too closely, and is not just going out of their way to come/pass closer (in my opinion of course).

The OP didn't quantify in inches and feet what the "buzzing" distance was, but apparently he only has a problem with one driver. That says a little that this particular driver is different. The question in my mind is at what point does being a different type of driver remain OK and when does it cross a line.
Did you ask her if she ever thought about what might happen if the cyclist swerved around a broken bottle at the time she was passing? Or if someone left a skewer loose and the wheel picked that moment to come out of the dropouts?

Let's put another spin on this. What do you feel about tailgating? Whether aggressive or not, it's not safe. And many states do have laws on the books regarding following at an unsafe distance. And we all know the reason: lack of distance reduces the safety barrier between you and the other driver. Especially when it comes to the unexpected. Shouldn't bicyclist expect the same protection, both legally and from a common courtesy perspective?

Again, tailgating does not need to be intentional nor aggressive to be unsafe. Neither does passing a cyclist too close. But both actions, regardless of intent, should be both illegal and, if one has a brain in one's head, common sense to avoid. And intent really has no bearing on the "victim's" perspective of aggressiveness. But there is no common sense test for a driving license and idiots and jackarses and oblivious airheads abound.

PS: What it is about Scion box drivers? I confronted one about passing me to close (while the drivers ahead and behind him gave me of plenty of room). He called my a pussy and then tried to instigate an accident as we pulled away. When I saw a cop and reported him, the cop told me I had just been reported on a totally made up traffic violation. So who's the pussy?

[cincytri]

Haven't read the thread at all but here are my 2 cents:

1. Be careful following people around. You never know what could set someone off and there is a very real chance that you could be placing yourself in a terrible, avoidable situation.

2. Make a report to your local PD giving as much detail as you can regarding the vehicle and driver.

3. In as safe a way as is possible, do get the license plate of the vehicle. A picture of the car and driver would be nice too, but I might not recommend a confrontation at an intersection.

4. Ride in a group. Witnesses do matter.

4. Maybe change your route?

Bottom line is that no matter how right you (we) are when riding on the roads, it really doesn't matter when a driver decides to behave dangerously. I had a situation where I was run off the road this summer and I managed to get the plate and report it to the police. Terrible response from the officer and a real eye opener for me. I sold two road bikes and am in the process of buying a cross and MTB. YMMV. Good luck whatever you do and be safe.

[Seramount]

this thread is a collection of singularly bad ideas.

stalking a dangerous driver...just record his plate number and provide it to the police. they'll either act on it or not. if you confront the motorist, be prepared to throw down. if you're not, it's a chump move and you may get your ass kicked...or worse.

intentionally wobbling to make motorists veer off...freaking absurd. anyone employing this bonehead tactic should be embarrassed by their own stupidity.

not taking the lane when necessary...it's considered a legal maneuver where I live. if it's too scary to ride in traffic, then you're really not cut out to be a a cyclist. try a different mode of transport.

jimcav's approach of riding aggressively defensive is the best advice posted.

[RPS]

Sorry, but I have zero tolerance for jerks who use their cars to intimidate cyclists just because they think their anonymity and superior size entitles them to do whatever they want.
stalking a dangerous driver...just record his plate number and provide it to the police. they'll either act on it or not. if you confront the motorist, be prepared to throw down. if you're not, it's a chump move and you may get your ass kicked...or worse.I suggested following the guy so you can actually get to him, which is a little bit of a problem on a bike if he is driving a car unless you can do 45 MPH. That’s hardly stalking. And you are correct, if you are not willing to stand for your rights whether you get your ass kicked or not then you should never confront anyone.
jimcav's approach of riding aggressively defensive is the best advice posted. Mostly I agree with this, but some times you have to put your offense on the field. I don’t want to spend my entire life playing defense and trying to avoid every possible bully out there – that would be worse than getting a bloody nose once in a while. If you don't want to confront jerks that's your choice, but it doesn't make it a bad idea when cops are unwilling to do anything about a bad and dangerous situation. I'm all for trying to work with law enforcement first but there are a lot of situations when that's not an option and we have to stand up for ourselves or those who depend on us for protection.

[bobswire]

If all else fails.... http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=BUY_PRODUCT_STANDARD&PRODUCT.ID=7730&CATEGORY.ID=&MODE=&TFC=

[rustychain]

I believe in taking the lane when appropriate and letting driver pass when safe. I am also a fan of the loud scream (not cursing) to get drivers attention. Often as the try to unsafely pass to close I turn around, give them a look (see Lance vs Ullrich) and a very loud "YO". Basically the horn of last resort. When it's safe I wave the motorist on. Most seem to get at that point I'm not trying to be an arse but just trying to be safe. Will not work everytime but it's saved my butt often enough. It's important when yelling not to unload your frustrations that have built up over the years guys. Something that is easy to do and something most of us have done at least once (sorry to the lady I called lardbutt). Having been hit by a car that passed illegally (84 year old swerved into me) being aware of the law and giving clear signals of intent resulted in the offending driver being convicted of reckless driving and getting FULL compensation from his insurance. The federal codes call for 3 ft MINIMUM clearance when passing. In Virginia it's 2 feet but it's rarely if ever informed unless you call or better write to your local police and report that your having of ongoing issue, give route number and time frame if possable. They will almost always send an officer to observe the location ( when they have the time) and if possible issue some tickets. If the issue is not resolved send another letter and cc your local representative.

[drewski]

Although the points made by others are good against doing
the wobbly. I still think the wobbly has its place. For example, you are a tight 1 lane state road, using a rear view mirror. If you know the car is about 50- 100 feet behind you do the wobbly this will get the driver attention. If you don't feel confident in your abilities don't do it. The point
is to make the driver slow down alittle bit. Speed is what kills cyclists in these scenarios.

There is a big differance between being hit by a car
at at 17 mph -fatality rate is low
30 mph -higher than at 17 mph
44 mph higher than 44 mph







1).I think the wobble also make you a little more visible

2). It makes people believe you don't know what you are doing
which makes drivers uneasy. That is the point. Usually if a driver
is not confident in their abilities, they will slow down.
By not confident, they do not have their **** together either
because of physiological or artificial induced condition. I have
seen cars slow down to the point where I had to pull over on the side of
the road before they would pass me. Even though I did not do a wobbly
maneuver.


A little bit of lateral movement is a good thing since many people do not
feel comfortable riding with cyclists to begin with. I am pretty open minded
but I feel from experience this will hopefully reduce my chance of fatality
if for some reason I am hit. If you are hit at 55+ you won't to worry about
what happens in court to argue about your intentions on the wobbly.
You will probaly taking harp lessons from one of the Marx brothers.

[PaMtbRider]

this thread is a collection of singularly bad ideas.

stalking a dangerous driver...just record his plate number and provide it to the police. they'll either act on it or not. if you confront the motorist, be prepared to throw down. if you're not, it's a chump move and you may get your ass kicked...or worse.

intentionally wobbling to make motorists veer off...freaking absurd. anyone employing this bonehead tactic should be embarrassed by their own stupidity.

not taking the lane when necessary...it's considered a legal maneuver where I live. if it's too scary to ride in traffic, then you're really not cut out to be a a cyclist. try a different mode of transport.

jimcav's approach of riding aggressively defensive is the best advice posted.
seramount gets it, and I would be comfortable riding with him even though we have never met. Wobbly riding, you're kidding right? Take the lane and ride aggressively so you are communicating to drivers what your intentions are. Too many riders take a timid approach, especially at intersections and yield their right of way leaving many drivers unaware of your intentions. Common sense also need to come into play. As Ray said in an earlier post I use these techniques on mostly rural roads in Pennsylvania. I don't ride busy roads during rush hour traffic. If this is your typical riding environment I still think an aggressive approach is best but don't "take the lane" when unnecessary just because it is your right.

[Seramount]

I still think the wobbly has its place.

1).I think the wobble also make you a little more visible

2). It makes people believe you don't know what you are doing
which makes drivers uneasy.


intentionally making drivers uneasy is your brilliant game plan for survival? this mindset is completely unfathomable to me. you're creating an unnecessary hazard and potentially promoting road rage. you need to seriously re-think this illogical approach.

try riding skillfully and purposefully. demonstrate easily-understood intentions instead of behaving like some clueless clown on a bike (there's plenty of those around without people pretending).

and people wonder why motorists aren't eager to share the road.

[gdw]

I'd love to hear someone explain to a jury how the wobble strategy makes you safer. :crap:

[RPS]

The one thing I do get completely clear in this thread is that two separate issues are being commingled as if they are one and the same. IMO riding safely is one issue; and having to deal with aggressive drivers is another.

I’m pretty sure that riding safely (however done) doesn’t eliminate driver aggression. To indirectly suggest otherwise is a disservice to fellow cyclists in my opinion.

[Tom]

If I'm out riding with somebody and they do this wobble thing to try and affect a driver's behavior they better be able to ride a whole lot faster than me cause pretty soon I'm going to administer something to them.

[rugbysecondrow]

.

[Kevan]

Time for a status update.

[drewski]

I think this thread would be better off if we as men and women
try not to belittle other folks who have a contrary opinion.
This thread has a couple of I am wrong you are right time ( or the converse) type of responses.

Life is not so clear cut. What might work on my ride here in Charlotte
may not work in your ride in Schenectady.

I think we all need to try to stay humble and not go crazy with
tyrannical viewpoints. I need to remember this too.


Really great discussion by the way. I really enjoy the forum.
Not only for the part fellowship, but for the fellowship in general.
Thanks for keeping me sharp.
I can also be a tyrant.
The wobbler

[Louis]

The wobbler

Eugene V. Debs would be proud of you (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Workers_of_the_World)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/IWW_anti-conscription_poster_1916.jpg/349px-IWW_anti-conscription_poster_1916.jpg

[rice rocket]

Can't we just all get along?

http://i.imgur.com/6eIrX.jpg
;)

[rustychisel]

OMFG.

I'm glad that's not yours, is it, RR?


On wobbling: singularly silly idea because it may attract attention but the outcome is always in doubt. Put it this way...

being unclear about your intentions, hesitating, wobbling are all telltales of a not-so-capable cyclist. At least 50% of the time I see motorists take the opportunity to pass, or to swerve around, or to use the horn aggressively with a 'you had your chance now it's my turn' attitude if they assess you as a newbie or fred. Which means that less than 50% of the time the motorist behind might be of the 'I'm only inconvenienced by 3 seconds' mindset. I don't like those odds.

Mostly, especially in city traffic (commuter traffic etc) motorists employ a 'give an inch and they'll take a yard approach' except in this case the aphorism is 'give them the lane and they'll take the frikkin road'.

I understand it only takes 1 to kill me, but I've been riding as part of the traffic for nearly 40 years: being positive, direct, clear about my intentions, as smooth and good in integration and flow as I can be are all good ideas for surviving. I take the lane if the circumstances warrant it.

[toaster]

Here's an update for everyone:

Monday morning staked out position off the highway in question (2 lane, dotted line, very little traffic, almost none), suspect drives by at same time and I follow in my car. I get license number then follow at a good distance approximately 12 miles into town where he turned in to what appeared to be his place of employment. I doubt he was aware he was followed and did not seem to pay attenttion to rear view mirror.

Interesting note, there is a faster route to town that uses freeway but this motorist may prefer this route in order to speed along traffic free route at 7:30 am and I did notice how he does seem annoyed when slower cars are ahead of him. (He tends to brake late then tailgate.)

After he parked at place of employment, I circled block and noticed car still parked and driver gone.

Now, for the news. I have a private investigator friend who volunteered to search the DMV database and will follow up with a law enforcement officer to visit suspect and inform him he is on record with a complaint and to cease passing unsafely.

My route will not include riding anywhere near 7:30 am on this stretch of road. I still need to use that bit of road but will reverse my loop so as to never travel in the same direction at that time.

The suspect will very unlikely see me for some time unless he is on the road purely by coincidence at some unusual time.

I hope he figures out that safely considering others is the best thing for him.

BTW, I appreciate all responses and especially the poem on the first page.

Thank you.

[drewski]

Part of the social contract between riders and cyclists is to look out for one another to make sure no gets hurt. Unfortunately not everyone shares this view point.
Since there is a lack of observance of said social contract I am left
to using what works. I have been riding for 34 years and knock on wood
have not been in 1 single bike accident. I have ridden in New York City
as part of a Thursday evening weekly Central Park traffic calming ride for over 1 year, been a messanger, riden centuries in and around New Jersey. You have not seen road rage until you get with about 100 cyclists and take a lane in Central Park during rush hour. This is not for the faint of heart.
We were event harrassed by the New York City police department
on a continual basis. The traffic calming protest ride (Great Central
Park Traffic Calming Ride) did yield the desired effect. Return of car free normal car free hours schedule that was in place pre-1992. The change occured during the tenure of Parks Commissioner Henry Stern who served under Mayor Dinkins. If you think traffic calming rides are for anarchists thing again. Most of the folks on our rides were passionate minded community
folk who were not happy with the status quo.


The wobble has come in handy
several times. Usually works best on less dense roads where people are driving at high speeds. In my experience I have never been honked for using a wobble.
I have a friend who works teaches others how to ride street motorcycles on dirt, and is a UCF coach. He swears by the wobble technique as well.
A friend of works on the police force and finds that people who do a lot of lane changes using signals can also help to avoid distances.

From my experience being delibirately unclear works to the advantage of a cyclist in some cases.




It works because it adds variability. If you are in a bike line you are lot less
visible since you are riding in a straight line. A wobble makes you more
noticeable and drivers find wobbly cyclists more visible. I also read
Jan Heine of Bicycle Quarterly suggest wobbling to randonneur riders.
Its counter intuitive but based on anectodotal evidence effective
in same cases. I also ride with a day glow vest and Dinotte 400 lumen
rear blinky.

I don't get to choose how attentive motorists are. A quick sudden
move to the left and then back to the right is a big attention getter.


So shut the f up already about the wobble. If you don't like it
keep your f 'in comments to your self.

Bugh!!!!

OMFG.

I'm glad that's not yours, is it, RR?


On wobbling: singularly silly idea because it may attract attention but the outcome is always in doubt. Put it this way...

being unclear about your intentions, hesitating, wobbling are all telltales of a not-so-capable cyclist. At least 50% of the time I see motorists take the opportunity to pass, or to swerve around, or to use the horn aggressively with a 'you had your chance now it's my turn' attitude if they assess you as a newbie or fred. Which means that less than 50% of the time the motorist behind might be of the 'I'm only inconvenienced by 3 seconds' mindset. I don't like those odds.

Mostly, especially in city traffic (commuter traffic etc) motorists employ a 'give an inch and they'll take a yard approach' except in this case the aphorism is 'give them the lane and they'll take the frikkin road'.

I understand it only takes 1 to kill me, but I've been riding as part of the traffic for nearly 40 years: being positive, direct, clear about my intentions, as smooth and good in integration and flow as I can be are all good ideas for surviving. I take the lane if the circumstances warrant it.

[daylate$short]

There are more elegant solutions.

Like this. (http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/bond-bicycle-comes-equipped-with-ejector-seat-flamthrower)

Shaken, not stirred, indeed.

Not sure I understand the purpose of an ejector seat on a bicycle. I can do that all by myself. :crap:
Now on a tandem, that I can understand....

[stone56n]

Sorry , I have to add my 2cents, and you may not like what I have to say, but I grew up riding in thde bronx and I carried that agressive attitude with me. In 30 years of riding I have dragged more than a few motorists out of their cars and beat the stupid out of them, but its getting to the point where i feel like I'm tilting at windmills. there just seems to be more of them than there are of us :crap: :crap: :crap: I just can't do it alone anymore, so anytime you come across a stupid motorist, educate them!!!!!!!
Stupidity should be painful......

[gdw]

Drewski,
Beer courage? Once again, wobbling is the same as reckless driving and will be viewed that way by the police officer who fills out the accident report. If you get hit, even after pulling to the right, you're going to loose in court because you were deliberately operating your vehicle in an unsafe manner prior to becoming a hood ornament.

[stone56n]

Rustychisle is right! Be decisive be obvious don't be timid know what is yours and take it when you have to, it's better to suffer the blast of a horn than to let some dumbass motorist pass you dangerously close.
Best to listen to the survivors.

[stone56n]

Wobbling,,,,, wobbling???? are you stoned or stupid???????

[tuxbailey]

Here's an update for everyone:

Monday morning staked out position off the highway in question (2 lane, dotted line, very little traffic, almost none), suspect drives by at same time and I follow in my car. I get license number then follow at a good distance approximately 12 miles into town where he turned in to what appeared to be his place of employment. I doubt he was aware he was followed and did not seem to pay attenttion to rear view mirror.

Interesting note, there is a faster route to town that uses freeway but this motorist may prefer this route in order to speed along traffic free route at 7:30 am and I did notice how he does seem annoyed when slower cars are ahead of him. (He tends to brake late then tailgate.)

After he parked at place of employment, I circled block and noticed car still parked and driver gone.

Now, for the news. I have a private investigator friend who volunteered to search the DMV database and will follow up with a law enforcement officer to visit suspect and inform him he is on record with a complaint and to cease passing unsafely.

My route will not include riding anywhere near 7:30 am on this stretch of road. I still need to use that bit of road but will reverse my loop so as to never travel in the same direction at that time.

The suspect will very unlikely see me for some time unless he is on the road purely by coincidence at some unusual time.

I hope he figures out that safely considering others is the best thing for him.

BTW, I appreciate all responses and especially the poem on the first page.

Thank you.


Nice to have friends with connections :)

[btulloch]

I personally agree with jimcav, except for the whole knife thing.
Riding 1/3 into the lane forces the driver to acknowledge you (that you are in their way) and they have to move their car. Who knows exactly what drivers think when they're passing a bike, but I feel like if you're in the shoulder (out of their way) many would think they can blow right by you.

While all the above discussion is good, you could just talk to the guy in the work parking lot and tell him what he's doing is dangerous to you. How do you know he's a bully? Maybe just uninformed.

"The problem is he must be the type who thinks I have no business on the road on my bicycle..."
This is very presumptuous.

You are creating a conflict where they might not be one. I think approaching him in the parking lot of his work is safe, he should have some sense of accountability at his place of employment, no? Try to be calmly and non accusatorially explain your situation and offer him some solutions (go halfway over the line, it's not illegal, slow down if you can't do that, etc) to make the interaction safer.

(Disclaimer, I'm a Canadian)

[Dekonick]

I personally agree with jimcav, except for the whole knife thing.
Riding 1/3 into the lane forces the driver to acknowledge you (that you are in their way) and they have to move their car. Who knows exactly what drivers think when they're passing a bike, but I feel like if you're in the shoulder (out of their way) many would think they can blow right by you.

While all the above discussion is good, you could just talk to the guy in the work parking lot and tell him what he's doing is dangerous to you. How do you know he's a bully? Maybe just uninformed.

"The problem is he must be the type who thinks I have no business on the road on my bicycle..."
This is very presumptuous.

You are creating a conflict where they might not be one. I think approaching him in the parking lot of his work is safe, he should have some sense of accountability at his place of employment, no? Try to be calmly and non accusatorially explain your situation and offer him some solutions (go halfway over the line, it's not illegal, slow down if you can't do that, etc) to make the interaction safer.

(Disclaimer, I'm a Canadian)


Many good points. Open communications can resolve many, if not most, issues.

[rustychisel]

So shut the f up already about the wobble. If you don't like it
keep your f 'in comments to your self.

Bugh!!!!


You got a smart [internet] mouth, I'll grant you that, but I disagree emphatically with your conclusions. As for you getting personal... I'll edit mine when you've edited yours.

I'm glad the OP is getting something done about his problem because this stuff is too important to let slide.

[Bruce K]

Boys, boys, boys.... play nice.

Rustyc, I know you so all I can say is don't let the newbie get you going.

Drewski, tone it down. It might be good if you could reach more than 250 posts here. :rolleyes:

BK

[rugbysecondrow]

Sounds like you are getting somewhere, although not my style. Did you actually file a complaint with the police? What did they say? Also, I wish I had as much time as you in the morning. ;)


Here's an update for everyone:

Monday morning staked out position off the highway in question (2 lane, dotted line, very little traffic, almost none), suspect drives by at same time and I follow in my car. I get license number then follow at a good distance approximately 12 miles into town where he turned in to what appeared to be his place of employment. I doubt he was aware he was followed and did not seem to pay attenttion to rear view mirror.

Interesting note, there is a faster route to town that uses freeway but this motorist may prefer this route in order to speed along traffic free route at 7:30 am and I did notice how he does seem annoyed when slower cars are ahead of him. (He tends to brake late then tailgate.)

After he parked at place of employment, I circled block and noticed car still parked and driver gone.

Now, for the news. I have a private investigator friend who volunteered to search the DMV database and will follow up with a law enforcement officer to visit suspect and inform him he is on record with a complaint and to cease passing unsafely.

My route will not include riding anywhere near 7:30 am on this stretch of road. I still need to use that bit of road but will reverse my loop so as to never travel in the same direction at that time.

The suspect will very unlikely see me for some time unless he is on the road purely by coincidence at some unusual time.

I hope he figures out that safely considering others is the best thing for him.

BTW, I appreciate all responses and especially the poem on the first page.

Thank you.

[stone56n]

Wobbling is for weebles,,, cause they dont fall down!!! :beer:

[stone56n]

Sounds like you are getting somewhere, although not my style. Did you actually file a complaint with the police? What did they say? Also, I wish I had as much time as you in the morning. ;)
Its unfortunate that you have to change your time of riding a particular part of your route to avoid a situation. To me it would feel as if I were being bullied,,, and I dont like bullies or being bullied. However survival is a major issue, so run away and LIVE to ride another day. :banana:

[stone56n]

I personally agree with jimcav, except for the whole knife thing.
Riding 1/3 into the lane forces the driver to acknowledge you (that you are in their way) and they have to move their car. Who knows exactly what drivers think when they're passing a bike, but I feel like if you're in the shoulder (out of their way) many would think they can blow right by you.

While all the above discussion is good, you could just talk to the guy in the work parking lot and tell him what he's doing is dangerous to you. How do you know he's a bully? Maybe just uninformed.

"The problem is he must be the type who thinks I have no business on the road on my bicycle..."
This is very presumptuous.

You are creating a conflict where they might not be one. I think approaching him in the parking lot of his work is safe, he should have some sense of accountability at his place of employment, no? Try to be calmly and non accusatorially explain your situation and offer him some solutions (go halfway over the line, it's not illegal, slow down if you can't do that, etc) to make the interaction safer.

(Disclaimer, I'm a Canadian)

Datant didn't work either! But I like the disclaimer.... :beer:

[gemship]

Anybody here ever get a loug shrill tone of a honk as a car drives by? I have been getting this frequently, it's either someone I know playing with because they think it's funny and they suffer from bad manners plus they don't know what it's like to be on a bicycle sticking to the right of the road with cars whizzing by. Or it's some pranksters I don't know who just think it's funny either way people with no manners/respect and ignorant to me as a cyclist.

[stone56n]

Anybody here ever get a loug shrill tone of a honk as a car drives by? I have been getting this frequently, it's either someone I know playing with because they think it's funny and they suffer from bad manners plus they don't know what it's like to be on a bicycle sticking to the right of the road with cars whizzing by. Or it's some pranksters I don't know who just think it's funny either way people with no manners/respect and ignorant to me as a cyclist.
Like i said before,,, some motorists need to have the stupid beaten out of them,,,, stupidity should be painful!!!!

[stone56n]

Like i said before,,, some motorists need to have the stupid beaten out of them,,,, stupidity should be painful!!!!
" The more road you give motorists, the less road they give you."

[drewski]

Good morning Bruce K and fellow Serotta forumites


I want to express sincere regret for getting angry and vulgar
yesterday. I want to particularly apologize to Rusty Chisel.
Thanks for challenging me on my choice of words.

I took some of the criticism too personally.

Sorry for the outburst Rustychis I was out of line. I have some anger issues
to resolve. Sometimes my immature id does take over.
:confused:

Thanks for not tolerating me.


Andrew

[drewski]

Anybody here ever get a loug shrill tone of a honk as a car drives by? I have been getting this frequently, it's either someone I know playing with because they think it's funny and they suffer from bad manners plus they don't know what it's like to be on a bicycle sticking to the right of the road with cars whizzing by. Or it's some pranksters I don't know who just think it's funny either way people with no manners/respect and ignorant to me as a cyclist.

Yes. Since we are firing lots of male hormones, our senses are heightened.
Sounds and perceived threats to our safety become magnified when bicycling. Some people actually like to drive by cyclists and make them
jump. We are not as civilized as a species as we have been led to believe.

[Ray]

Now, for the news. I have a private investigator friend who volunteered to search the DMV database and will follow up with a law enforcement officer to visit suspect and inform him he is on record with a complaint and to cease passing unsafely.

I had a job for years that gave me access to the DMV database and I was tempted to use it on a few occasions, but access to those records is NOT supposed to be available to the public and I ultimately never used it for non-work related business. (For anyone who may wonder, we used it a lot by doing license plate surveys to determine the travel-shed for a particular road or where the people that parked at a particular rail station were coming from to better assess demand. We didn't need to see their names, just plot the locations.) If you got the guy's license plate, why bother with a PI - why not just take it straight to the cops with a complaint and let them deal with it. I did that once and I know they talked to the guy because the officer gave me a courtesy follow up call to let me know what happened.

There are real privacy concerns here. I don't think that anyone in the general public should be able to track me down to my home (or you down to your home) just because they can read a license plate. Think of the simple traffic related grudges that happen everyday that never escalate but that very well might if driver B could easily get access to driver A's name and address.

I hope the driver gets a warning and, more importantly, changes his behavior, but I'd urge anyone not to pull strings you might or might not have available to get direct access to someone's personal information. Its a really bad precedent.

-Ray

[RPS]

There are real privacy concerns here. I don't think that anyone in the general public should be able to track me down to my home (or you down to your home) just because they can read a license plate. Think of the simple traffic related grudges that happen everyday that never escalate but that very well might if driver B could easily get access to driver A's name and address.

They don't need to, they can just follow you in their car from a distance.

IMO traffic grudges rarely happen in areas were people know each other. There is a reason for that. ;)

[rugbysecondrow]

I had a job for years that gave me access to the DMV database and I was tempted to use it on a few occasions, but access to those records is NOT supposed to be available to the public and I ultimately never used it for non-work related business. If you got the guy's license plate, why bother with a PI - why not just take it straight to the cops with a complaint and let them deal with it. I did that once and I know they talked to the guy because the officer gave me a courtesy follow up call to let me know what happened.

There are real privacy concerns here. I don't think that anyone in the general public should be able to track me down to my home (or you down to your home) just because they can read a license plate. Think of the simple traffic related grudges that happen everyday that never escalate but that very well might if driver B could easily get access to driver A's name and address.

I hope the driver gets a warning and, more importantly, changes his behavior, but I'd urge anyone not to pull strings you might or might not have available to get direct access to someone's personal information. Its a really bad precedent.

-Ray

I agree with Ray. I have had positons with access to lots of very personal/non public information and I never accessed any of it for other than work reasons. Just all seems like overkill for me. Different strokes though.

[Bob Loblaw]

I think the OP did an awesome job managing this on both fronts, keeping clear of the danger and getting the driver to change his behavior.

Every driver is different, every road is different. I have been passed politely many times on the PCH in Los Angeles, and then had my elbow clipped by a side view mirror on an empty country road in Connecticut. You just never know.

Most motorcyclist fatalities are caused by cars turning left into the rider's path of travel. Research has shown that weaving from side to side as you approach a car that's turning left decreases the number of left turn accidents. The theory is that weaving side to side makes you more visible and makes it easier for the car driver to estimate your speed. So there may be something to the "wobble" thing.

Personally, I tend to take the initiative, meaning I like to control the situation. If a car comes up behind me and it's not safe to pass, I move out into the lane and give a hand signal to slow down. When it's safe, I move over to the side and wave the car around. That works in rural CT. YMMV.

Usually I ride near the side of the road. If a car wants to buzz me, he will do it regardless of my lane position, and if I get creamed, at least witnesses will say "Yes officer, he was riding at the side of the lane and the car had plenty of room to pass safely."

Generally speaking though, it's not the cars that buzz me intentionally or honk as they pass that scare me. They startle me, yes, but mostly they pi$$ me off. It's the people who refuse to see me who scare the hell out of me. I confronted an octogenarian and his wife at a stoplight a few weeks ago after he damn near clipped me, and he made up some excuse for buzzing me (a bump in the road he wanted to miss), but it was clear he had no idea I was there in spite of my brightly colored jersey, polished Ti bike, and the mid-day sun. He probably came as close to putting my lights out as anyone ever has, and neither of us even knew until it was over.

There are a few homicidal lunatics out there, but their numbers are nothing compared to the masses of distracted and oblivious drivers.

BL

[gemship]

I agree, fine job by Toaster, can't really do much better than that and that's if you care because if you don't care then it's like they say ignorance is bliss but as a human living in a complicated world of legality I like most tend to sweat the small stuff and appreciate individual space.

[stone56n]

Tears for the 8http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2010-12-05-italy-cyclists-killed_N.htm

[rustychisel]

Good morning Bruce K and fellow Serotta forumites....


Andrew


All good, and certainly no permanent damage done.

Alex

PS: thanks Bruce

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . It's the people who refuse to see me who scare the hell out of me. I confronted an octogenarian and his wife at a stoplight a few weeks ago after he damn near clipped me, and he made up some excuse for buzzing me (a bump in the road he wanted to miss), but it was clear he had no idea I was there in spite of my brightly colored jersey, polished Ti bike, and the mid-day sun. He probably came as close to putting my lights out as anyone ever has, and neither of us even knew until it was over.

There are a few homicidal lunatics out there, but their numbers are nothing compared to the masses of distracted and oblivious drivers.

. . . of a conversation I had with an Oklahoma State Trooper when I lived there in the 80's. He told me that whenever he was investigating a wreck that involved a senior citizen--or had stopped one who was driving erratically--while he was talking with them he would extend his arm and start waggling his hand a few feet to the side of their head--at the edge of a normal person's field of vision. He would not tell them he was doing this.

He would then slowly start moving his waggling hand around toward the front of their head and wait to see when they spoke up to ask him what the hell he was doing.

He said a majority of elderly drivers have very depleted peripheral vision and a fair number would not indicate they saw his hand until it was almost right in front of their face. Yet the huge majority would not admit they had any vision problem.

These are indeed the ones that really, really scare me because they could hit you and keep going and never even realize it. and they are the ones who are far, far more numerous than the ones who will pull toad rage on you.

BBD

[rustychisel]

God I love it when I see toad rage. Makes my day, BBD :beer:

[rugbysecondrow]

My favorite is a good toad head.

[toaster]

Sounds like you are getting somewhere, although not my style. Did you actually file a complaint with the police? What did they say? Also, I wish I had as much time as you in the morning. ;)


No, I have a friend that is a P.I. He will take care of investigation into who the person is and then arrange to have a talk with him.

Like I mentioned earlier, I'm done worrying about it. I won't ride that bit of road he uses anywhere near the same time as his commute. After many weeks or months of not seeing me along with the talk he's going to have very soon with the P.I. he will never remember me months later if we happen to be on the road again at the same time. I'll be just another cyclist at that point and hopefully he will have given up on terrrorizing people on bicycles.

[stone56n]

. . . of a conversation I had with an Oklahoma State Trooper when I lived there in the 80's. He told me that whenever he was investigating a wreck that involved a senior citizen--or had stopped one who was driving erratically--while he was talking with them he would extend his arm and start waggling his hand a few feet to the side of their head--at the edge of a normal person's field of vision. He would not tell them he was doing this.

He would then slowly start moving his waggling hand around toward the front of their head and wait to see when they spoke up to ask him what the hell he was doing.

He said a majority of elderly drivers have very depleted peripheral vision and a fair number would not indicate they saw his hand until it was almost right in front of their face. Yet the huge majority would not admit they had any vision problem.

These are indeed the ones that really, really scare me because they could hit you and keep going and never even realize it. and they are the ones who are far, far more numerous than the ones who will pull toad rage on you.

BBD
BBD just stopped by to say hi, hope you had a great season, best to you and all you hold dear.