Tried and True -- Why no Campy?

[soul survivor]

Anyone else wonder why the "Tried and True" packages contain no Campy parts? :beer:

[97CSI]

I'm guessing that Campagnolo does not offer enough of a discount to make it worth their while, for one thing. The other reason would just start a fight.

[pitcrew]

Still working out the true part? :)

[soul survivor]

So what's the other reason?

[FlashUNC]

Campy's done a historically awful job of supporting the OEM market in the states.

[soul survivor]

Seems to me that Serotta loses credibility by omitting Campy entirely. :beer:

[oldpotatoe]

Anyone else wonder why the "Tried and True" packages contain no Campy parts? :beer:

It's all about money. Serotta can get HUGE discounts on the groups mentioned(particularly sram) and they(and others) cannot with Campagnolo. I know of a 'few' Serotta stores who get these packages, at a huge OE discount, and then sell them as parts or groups on other frames...money..

Yes, Campagnolo can't spell OEM. They don't discount deeply, don't lose money on one while insisting that a frame maker buy another group, don't do unrestricted OEM sales. That is some frame builder buys 7000 groups for 5000 bikes and back channel the rest.

I suspect Campagnolo will source groups soon from Taiwan, if they don't do that already, to be where the frames are made. Can make more groups more cheaply. I think why Athena and below levers and crank changed design for 2011.

[Vancouverdave]

This is a guess directed at bigger manufacturers than Serotta, but I'd guess that the lack of Campy as OEM spec is at least in part due to the perception, maybe true maybe not, that it's a little harder to set up than Brands S and S, that it eats shop time when stores' service departments aren't Campy literate.
Also that it may be a little noisier shifting in hands unaccustomed to it; at least during the 8 and 9 speed eras I heard that comment from numerous customers.

[spartacus]

Many third party bits and pieces are only made for the Big S.

[97CSI]

Many third party bits and pieces are only made for the Big S.That is one thing that has always mystified me PW and CK, for instance, would only need to do the design and set up their multi-axis CNC machine once to do the 9/10/11 freehub cassette carrier. With the stellar rep of the better Campy hubs and wheels they may simply not feel it is worth the effort.

[spartacus]

That is one thing that has always mystified me PW and CK, for instance, would only need to do the design and set up their multi-axis CNC machine once to do the 9/10/11 freehub cassette carrier. With the stellar rep of the better Campy hubs and wheels they may simply not feel it is worth the effort.

Setting up the CNC is just the beginning. After that there are real costs involved, in production runs, in inventory and stock, in distribution, et.c., et.c. Having two parallel products on the go is a complication for any small business, especially when the new one is going to be outsold several times over by the established one. What will be the return on the investment, if there is one at all?

[oldpotatoe]

That is one thing that has always mystified me PW and CK, for instance, would only need to do the design and set up their multi-axis CNC machine once to do the 9/10/11 freehub cassette carrier. With the stellar rep of the better Campy hubs and wheels they may simply not feel it is worth the effort.

A person at Phil said they have a minimum size for the bearings inside the freehub body and will not smaller..which is what they would have to do with deeper spline Campagnolo. King said they won't give up their ring drive design...same issue, inside diameter, bearing size.

[97CSI]

Setting up the CNC is just the beginning. After that there are real costs involved, in production runs, in inventory and stock, in distribution, et.c., et.c. Having two parallel products on the go is a complication for any small business, especially when the new one is going to be outsold several times over by the established one. What will be the return on the investment, if there is one at all?Once set up and running, it is simple. Use the same internals so only change needs to be that needed to fit the Campy cassette and locknut. Cost of inventory is low. Don't need that many (few dozen?). Distribution is all ready there, so no added expense. ROI would be the same or higher than 'the other', if there is a market. Am guessing that neither PW or CK feel there is or they would have done so long ago.

oldpotatoe - guess that answers it. There is an easy fix, but am sure they aren't interested due to small market size.

[spartacus]

Once set up and running, it is simple. Use the same internals so only change needs to be that needed to fit the Campy cassette and locknut. Cost of inventory is low. Don't need that many (few dozen?). Distribution is all ready there, so no added expense. ROI would be the same or higher than 'the other', if there is a market. Am guessing that neither PW or CK feel there is or they would have done so long ago.

oldpotatoe - guess that answers it. There is an easy fix, but am sure they aren't interested due to small market size.


I felt unable to say 'small market' for fear of being jumped on by the C-rowd. I'll keep things neutral by sticking with my original take on the reasons why. :beer:

[soul survivor]

Now can someone summarize the comments above for a reader who is not a bike mechanic? :beer:

[97CSI]

Now can someone summarize the comments above for a reader who is not a bike mechanic? :beer:Let me take a shot..........
When only the best is good enough you will ride Campy. Think I got it.

[soul survivor]

Record or Super Record? Or Chorus? What are the primary differences (functionality and lifespan)?

Before you answer, please be certain you have PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with the grupos you write about, NOT SPECULATION.
:hello:

[rice rocket]

There was a whole thread on the differences a few weeks ago.

Edit: here.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=78324&highlight=campagnolo+differences

[97CSI]

As far as life of the components, I've never worn out any part that was not a wear item on any of the three groups (cassettes, cables, chains & BB). Everything else lasts a lifetime, given proper maintenance. Tim, formerly 'Branford Bike', used to recommend rebuilding Record/Chorus Ergo levers every 25K miles to be on the safe side. Same with the ball bearings in the hubs. This assumes normal cleaning and lubricating every season or two. The non-ball bearing levers need maintenance about twice as often, per Tim. Works for me. Just rebuilt one of two sets of '04/'03 Chorus levers. About $100 in parts.

[FlashUNC]

Now can someone summarize the comments above for a reader who is not a bike mechanic? :beer:


Campy makes good bike parts, but sucks at trying to get them on bikes straight from a manufacturer hanging in shops.
Whether that's an 800lb gorilla like Trek or a smaller shop like Serotta.
Instead, they try to sell to folks converting from other companies to Campy.

[sg8357]

Many third party bits and pieces are only made for the Big S.

The big S is my first choice too....

[climbgdh]

I'm a Campy convert after many years on Shimano. Full Chorus on my main ride. 13,000 kms on groupset now with nary an adjustment since putting it on. Have obviously replaced chain, brake pads in that period of time but if anything it shifts better now than it did the day I put the components on. Oh yea.... maybe a couple of minor turns of barrel adjuster in that time.... big deal. Awesome. Second bike has full Centaur 2009. Awesome as well. Not huge kms on it yet but AWESOME AWESOME stuff. Recently converted my commuter / winter bike to a mix of Record & Centaur using a Jtek shiftmate because I have Shimano rear disc hub. Truly awesome. Only 500 kms on it or so since the conversion 2 or so weeks ago but I don't expect I'll have to touch anything for a long time. I'm never looking back now. Campy all the way.

[bike22]

Is part of the reason there is so little OEM campy because campag is europe based, and after currency conversion and taxes/tariffs it would make it prohibitively expensive?

god that's a muddled sentence. hope it is understandable in any case.

[dave thompson]

Our currency compared to the Euro or Yen is expensive and is nowhere near the value it had just a few years ago, therefore most italian/Japanese made bike stuff costs more. Campy is a very narrow company in that it's main products are for bicycles and it can't spread its costs like Shimano can. Shimano is hugely successful in OEM equipment for bicycles and for fishing gear. One of the most expensive spinning reels is a Shimano at over $700.

[oldpotatoe]

Record or Super Record? Or Chorus? What are the primary differences (functionality and lifespan)?

Before you answer, please be certain you have PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with the grupos you write about, NOT SPECULATION.
:hello:

No functional or lifespan differences EXCEPT all steel cogs(Chorus) last longer than ti cogs(SR and Record).

SuperRecord-ti, carbon, ceramic...take away some carbon(RD) and ti bits->
Record-Take away some of the ceramic based stuff-> CHorus.

If you just want the functionality of the lever guts and 11s, get Chorus. If ya want chi-chi-get Record or SuperRecord..
I just installed SR onto a Moots RSL...pretty sweet but big $.

Crossing to another thread...once again, NOT hard to set up at all...no harder than 7900/6700...really like the feel of it.

[soul survivor]

Thanks, OP -- good advice. SR or R only for show, not function! :hello:

[Ralph]

My bikes have all Campy......and have for almost 40 years....but having said that.....

Low and lower end Shimano stuff is pretty good....tough to compete against when good performance and low price is the objective. Campagnolo parts have always had a bit of the "bike jewelry" aspect about them....which most of us like. I don't think they have ever been competitive on price.

[RPS]

Thanks, OP -- good advice. SR or R only for show, not function! :hello:
Not exactly – more carbon and titanium saves a few grams which also makes it a functional improvement, not just for show. You’ll climb and accelerate faster with lower mass.

[oldpotatoe]

Not exactly – more carbon and titanium saves a few grams which also makes it a functional improvement, not just for show. You’ll climb and accelerate faster with lower mass.

geeee. ok...but once again in a 90,000 or so gram 'package', saving those, say 300 grams...all things being equal, the force to accelerate a bike and rider is the mass of the bike and rider...even when you consider one 'mass' is fraction of 1% lighter than the other.....all things being equal, like power out one day to the next, even tho it never is, equal.

Doesn't hurt the Campagnolo sponsored pros, who mostly had Record..btw-

[soulspinner]

geeee. ok...but once again in a 90,000 or so gram 'package', saving those, say 300 grams...all things being equal, the force to accelerate a bike and rider is the mass of the bike and rider...even when you consider one 'mass' is fraction of 1% lighter than the other.....all things being equal, like power out one day to the next, even tho it never is, equal.

Doesn't hurt the Campagnolo sponsored pros, who mostly had Record..btw-

+1-difference rec to cho is typically 1/3 lb. My weight varies this much day to day

[97CSI]

My bikes have all Campy......and have for almost 40 years....but having said that.....

Low and lower end Shimano stuff is pretty good....tough to compete against when good performance and low price is the objective. Campagnolo parts have always had a bit of the "bike jewelry" aspect about them....which most of us like. I don't think they have ever been competitive on price.Most of us Campyophiles are a bit of of snob about same. However, I do not agree about lower end Campy groups........ Xenon, Mirage and Veloce are every bit as good and comparable in price to the lower end from S&S. Campy simply is not well tied into the Asian OEM thing, so is badly under represented as a result.

[Bob Loblaw]

As far as life of the components, I've never worn out any part that was not a wear item on any of the three groups (cassettes, cables, chains & BB). Everything else lasts a lifetime, given proper maintenance.

Apart from the shifters being rebuildable, I don't think this is a differentiating factor from Shimano. I have a set of Ultegra 9 speed levers bought in 2003 still in service on one of my bikes after around 35k miles and still working just fine.

Shimano and Campy both have strengths and weaknesses. Shimano's strength has been cross compatability across years and models, all the way back to 8 speed. An 8 speed derailer will mate with a ten speed hub and a nine speed cassette, as long as the chain and shifters match the cassette. Campy has rebuildable shifters with a theoretically endless service life. Just depends on what you want.

BL

[FlashUNC]

Apart from the shifters being rebuildable, I don't think this is a differentiating factor from Shimano. I have a set of Ultegra 9 speed levers bought in 2003 still in service on one of my bikes after around 35k miles and still working just fine.

Shimano and Campy both have strengths and weaknesses. Shimano's strength has been cross compatability across years and models, all the way back to 8 speed. An 8 speed derailer will mate with a ten speed hub and a nine speed cassette, as long as the chain and shifters match the cassette. Campy has rebuildable shifters with a theoretically endless service life. Just depends on what you want.

BL


My 9-spd Ultegra levers lasted about 8 years for thousands of miles, then the right shifter died mid-ride. The ratcheting mechanism simply gave way. The replacement levers ended up being fairly expensive, and I had a dead orphan front shifter left over after the swap.

I started looking hard at Campy after that. Shimano was dead reliable for 8 years, but having it die mid-ride in one gear (well, two, could still shift the front) tends to make a lasting impression.

[Bob Loblaw]

I started looking hard at Campy after that. Shimano was dead reliable for 8 years, but having it die mid-ride in one gear (well, two, could still shift the front) tends to make a lasting impression.

Touche. But OTOH I just picked up Dura Ace 8 speed rear hub off of eBay. It's dissassembled right now on my workbench, clean and ready to be reassembled (with the original parts) and laced into a new wheel for my Shimano bike which is running a mix of 7, 8, 9, and 10 speed Ultegra and Dura Ace parts. That makes an impression too.

For the record, I have a Campagnolo bike as well, running a mix of Record and Chorus 10. I like both bikes.

BL

[oldpotatoe]

Touche. But OTOH I just picked up Dura Ace 8 speed rear hub off of eBay. It's dissassembled right now on my workbench, clean and ready to be reassembled (with the original parts) and laced into a new wheel for my Shimano bike which is running a mix of 7, 8, 9, and 10 speed Ultegra and Dura Ace parts. That makes an impression too.

For the record, I have a Campagnolo bike as well, running a mix of Record and Chorus 10. I like both bikes.

BL

Depends on the era. When shimano went from uniglide to hyperglide it make a whole bunch of cogsets uncompatible. At least Campagnolo pre exadrive 8s could be used on a post exaglide 8s freehub. And don't forget DA 8s...unique in terms of RD and RH shifter.

ALL companies have incompatibilities. Sram XX RD being compatible with the road shifters but not compatible with 9s SRam MTB shifters and vice versa...9s Sram RD not compatible with sram road shifters.

[RPS]

geeee. ok...but once again in a 90,000 or so gram 'package', saving those, say 300 grams...all things being equal, the force to accelerate a bike and rider is the mass of the bike and rider...even when you consider one 'mass' is fraction of 1% lighter than the other.....all things being equal, like power out one day to the next, even tho it never is, equal.

Doesn't hurt the Campagnolo sponsored pros, who mostly had Record..btw-
I was factual but not serious – you’re preaching to the choir. ;)

[Tim Porter]

Interesting data point: all of the Serotta demo fleet bikes have Campy SR 11. Slight thread drift: I got an email from Serotta this AM that the 2010 demo fleet's for sale to make room for the new year's demo models. 30% off as-new MeiVici's and Ottrotts. Wouldn't stake my life on it, but am betting the new year's demo bikes have the Tried and True packages . . . . :) Tim

[soul survivor]

Yes, all the Serotta's I test rode this past summer before ordering had Campy R or SR (don't remember which). Serotta clearly has its reasons for not putting Campy on T&T, but I doubt it's because of quality. That's why you need an LBO who is not a pig to tell it like it is to you!

[spartacus]

Do cyclists ride Shimano in Italy?

[oldpotatoe]

I was factual but not serious – you’re preaching to the choir. ;)

hard to tell sometimes on this and other sterile forums.

[oldpotatoe]

Do cyclists ride Shimano in Italy?

More shimano than Campagnolo and more Campagnolo than shimano in Japan.