Frame building in MA

[jburtonrider]

Looking to get into frame building as I am a student with some free time, especially now it's the off-season. I was wondering if anybody knew of any frame builders looking for help where I could learn the ropes. Apart from taking those $2500 classes that HotTubes or similar programs offer, I'd like to find another way to learn.

Any suggestions would be helpful.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I would suggest checking with local builders. If you are the Boston area there are Indy Fab and Seven and probably others I am not aware of. Even if they just need free office help you'd probably get to know people and make some connections that might help get you where you want to go.

BBD

[Bruce K]

Parlee, Zanconato, Maietta, Hot Tubes....

BK

[Mr. Squirrel]

good nuts!

mr. squirrel

[anthony.maietta]

I am not in a position to take on any interns, sorry.

Lots of us these days...I'm sure I missed someone...someone might work out.

ANT
Geekhouse
Hot Tubes
Icarus
Iglehart
Independent Fabrication
Maietta
Mooney
Parlee
Royal H
Sachs
Seven
Zanconato

[Doug Fattic]

Jburtonrider,

As the teacher of one of those "similar programs", let me be the one to bring you the bad news. Your question is a very common one on the various forums devoted to framebuilding. It is very unlikely that any experienced framebuilder will want to teach you in exchange for free work. They/we know that the time it takes to show you the ropes will not be returned in useful labor. There are a lot that ask. It is not practical or even possible to let someone inexperienced work on a customer’s frame. There is only so much sweeping the floors that can be done. The time taken to show you something is a reduction in a paycheck.

In a 2 week class that I teach (actually I teach classes of various lengths from 3 days to 3 weeks) there are many hours of concentrated instruction specifically designed to systematically show you the skills and take you through the steps. It seems like everyone wants to learn how to build frames and the major schools like UBI, Bohm, Yamaguchi and myself get full classes well in advance. These graduates are the ones most likely to get a positive response to work inquiries. They can bring a frame they’ve built to show off their skills and a teacher who can give them a good reference.

And just to continue with discouraging news, it is also fairly expensive to acquire the equipment needed to make frames. It is possible to make a frame with little tooling but that is in exchange for taking much more time. If you only plan on making a frame for yourself and maybe eventually a buddy or family member this isn’t a problem but if your ambitions are greater than the minimalist approach isn’t practical.

By all means ask around and see if someone might want to help you. You might get lucky and be the exception to the standard route of going somewhere to take a class from an experienced teacher and having the resources to get started with decent equipment.

PM me if you want the links to the framebuilding forums where a lot of do-it-yourselfers hang out or class information.

Doug Fattic
Niles, Michigan

[Mr. Squirrel]

toby (hot tubes), yamaguchi, and mr. fattic are good nuts. if you are really serious go shake their tree. they have the experienced nuggets you seek.

mr. squirrel

[AngryScientist]

Jburtonrider,

As the teacher of one of those "similar programs", let me be the one to bring you the bad news. ...snip...

Doug, thanks for the perspective in this thread. i have a question about these classes (sorry to veer the thread off topic a bit):

Do your (and other) classes vary by experience level? i would consider taking one of these classes sometime in the future as a fun experience, and am an avid and experienced welder/metal fabricator. i'm no pro, but i would hate to have a class half dedicated to welding/metal fab. basics, and i would also hate for my experience to take away from what others would be learning, and their positive experience.

are these classes basically "open call", or are there varying introductory skill level classes? one would think to get the most out of a framebuilding class, a few "prerequisite" classes would be super handy?

thanks in advance.

[bike22]

word on the street is that geekhouse will soon be offering a framebuilding class.

[gemship]

Wow Doug Fattic's post seems so right on and a stark reality that is a sign of the times. In my opinion it's just a mountain to climb toward success at anything, paying your dues with this economy. I find it interesting that Doug Fattic gets booked solid with full classes to teach frame building well in advance to the start of the class. There is some irony in that I wonder just how many students of these classes take their new found education to the next level and actually make a business of building bike frames? It just seems like another expensive hobby with illusions of grandeur.

I personally would love to experience bike building myself but I guess I don't think it's worth it. I mean what do I really want out of a bike anyway is what I ask myself and the answer for me is simple, fun. With that being said I guess I'll keep buying off the shelf bikes that fit me best fully equipped with consumable components that all have a service life, get the most bang for my buck and keep on going with two for road.

[Charles M]

Going one past Doug's very good post, I would be surprised if frame makers are not loosing money (ie making less) when they're teaching than if they kept working.

Teachers never get paid correctly and lots of times it's love-labor and I would bet that applies to classes...

[Ahneida Ride]

As hanger outer at Kelly's shop. I can attest to the fact that there
is little I could do to help out.

Kelly would have to waste time to teach me. It would cost him.

Doug is absolutely correct.

[eddief]

and there may not be many other, if any other builders like Waterford. But Richard Schwinn seems to have developed multiple revenue streams from Waterford, Gunnar, Terry, Volae, Rivendell. A place like that may provide a slightly better chance for an internship opportunity. But as I think about it, not sure who else fits that mold. Maybe requires a relo to Taiwan.

His people do great tig and lug work.

[David Kirk]

Show up in person at Serotta/IF/Seven/Waterford...etc, wear a tie and look professional and tell them you are willing to do ANYTHING to get your foot in the door and see what happens.

While I was at Serotta I can't tell you how many hipster-doofis' showed up wearing dirty shop clothes and a 3 day beard - these guy never got a serious interview. If the guy can't show enough respect to look professional for an hour how is the rest of it going to go.

I seriously doubt that there will be any small builders that can help you. Just as Doug said they are shooting themselves in the foot to do so.

Good luck.

dave

[rugbysecondrow]

Show up in person at Serotta/IF/Seven/Waterford...etc, wear a tie and look professional and tell them you are willing to do ANYTHING to get your foot in the door and see what happens.

While I was at Serotta I can't tell you how many hipster-doofis' showed up wearing dirty shop clothes and a 3 day beard - these guy never got a serious interview. If the guy can't show enough respect to look professional for an hour how is the rest of it going to go.

I seriously doubt that there will be any small builders that can help you. Just as Doug said they are shooting themselves in the foot to do so.

Good luck.

dave

This is great advice for pretty much any field as well. I am constantly surprised at how many people don't follow this simple advice.

[eddief]

how bad do you want it? how do you distinguish yourself from the fray? what are you willing to do to make it happen?

i guess any builder/company that works via a dealer network would have enough volume to possibly support an apprentice.

[Ti Designs]

Frame building isn't rocket science, many of the skills needed can be learned at technical schools like Wentworth. With skills you still need to learn how a frame goes together, but it's really not complicated and most of the steps can be learned from watching frame builders do their thing. much of the real learning happens from experience and building a few throw-away joints or even frames.

I started working for Peter Mooney (in retail, not frame building) 25 years ago. When I ordered my first custom frame I really took an interest in how it went together. My choice in buying a Peter Mooney was based on inspection of the bottom bracket from the inside of his bikes and many mass produced frames. I remember thinking that he must really take care of all the small details before he ever strikes up the torch - and he does. My understanding of tube joining doesn't come from bikes at all. I spent some time fabricating tube frame race cars and roll cages - it's really the same thing without so much attention to finish work. If you have access to a tubing miter jig or a milling machine and the right cutters, you can figure out joining tubes in a week. You'll probably have all kinds of weird scrap projects... Finish work and pure attention to detail is hard to learn, I think some people just have an easy time of it, others don't. I started my titanium jewelry company 'cause it all came so easy to me, a few strokes with the half round file, then sand it smooth - works for me.

The one question that hasn't been answered is if you should try frame building. Given the expense of starting and the fact that it's going to be at least a year or two before you produce anything good, is it really worth the investment? I know the members of this forum tend to worship frame builders, but I can't think of many builders who haven't had a few days wishing they had become plumbers instead. The pay is better, nobody cares about the finish work, and your pants don't have to come all the way up.

[nahtnoj]

and your pants don't have to come all the way up.

What else matters?

[eddief]

butt crack cycles

[97CSI]

butt crack cycles
Think we have a winner. :banana:

Would seem that the primary reason The OP might have a problem finding a position, even at no pay, is why would a frame-builder want to put another competitor into business? As someone who runs a business, when you have a labor need you find, as much as you can, the 'right' person rather than the one that will work for the least.

[johnnymossville]

Mr. Fattic's answer pretty much summed it up, but I'll add my own experience working in another field.

Every semester my previous art dept got interns, usually 2, from various local universities. Some left with an animation/graphics reel worthy of landing them a job, some didn't, but NONE of them pick up much knowledge other than watching us work. Any work they do can only be done between Midnight and 6am because that's when the equipment is available, and most of them don't want to be stuck behind a computer alone at those hours.

I can count on one hand work they've done that is worth putting on air.

After all that, some have gone on to become art directors at some of the largest Cable and TV networks in the world, and a few went on to work in making vfx for movies. The rest are probably working at McDonald's, dunno.

[BobbyJones]

Think we have a winner. :banana:

Would seem that the primary reason The OP might have a problem finding a position, even at no pay, is why would a frame-builder want to put another competitor into business? As someone who runs a business, when you have a labor need you find, as much as you can, the 'right' person rather than the one that will work for the least.

Take a read from Anthony Maietta: http://anthonymaietta.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/going-to-montana/

[tele]

from college

[Doug Fattic]

There really are no shortcuts to becoming a good framebuilder but it is certainly a lot easier now than in the 70’s when we had to go to Europe to get the scoop and there was no internet to provide information. I’m eternally grateful for the opportunity I was given to apprentice there. They had no better reason to take me than builders today. What I do know for sure that a person of average abilities would never be able to make a decent frame in a reasonable amount of time if they didn’t have good instruction. This is reinforced in every class I teach when I make hundreds of corrections to what students are doing. Trail and error alone is a tough teacher. There are some who have exceptional abilities to DIY with decent results.

Gemship, Most students that take my class have realistic goals. They almost all say the same thing in unison. “I not going to quit my day job and we will just see how it goes before I totally commit myself”. I would estimate that at least 20% sell frames either part or full time. Many have taken other classes and sometimes used those experiences to gain access to an established builder. If nothing else they have made a frame that fits them properly.

AngryScientist, Most of the class is devoted to explaining how to make a bicycle frame. Even the brazing and filing instruction is frame making specific. It is true that some general shop practices need to be covered like how to use a hacksaw and torch safety procedures. Actually I don’t expect the average student to have much prior knowledge. We live in an age when shop class is no longer taught in high school. It can be a big plus when someone has experience working with their hands. It is reflected in a nicer frame leaving class.

I teach 3 students at a time with the help of an assistant Herbie Helm. There is some flexibility to adjust to the needs of each student. I actually ascribe to the philosophy that more learning can take place in a small class. It requires tighter organization, others ask questions you might not think of and do something different to learn from and friendships can be formed that become future resources. Watching others learn to braze can make it easier to understand the techniques than when fire is in your hand and it is hard to keep track of everything at once at first. It is probable that Dave Bohm’s class with his individual instruction can skip some introductory steps.

[weisan]

This thread reflects how an honest and productive discourse could take place...with a couple of wise cracks here and there.

Doug-pal, I appreciate your insightful inputs.

[eddief]

seems like some might be just fine with manning the hand tools, but I wonder if you are good using those if that necessarily means you have a geometry brain too? My hands work damn well, but thinking in numbers...not so good.