odds n' endos wheels

[Ken Robb]

several of our gang were ordering these a few weeks ago. Have the wheels arrived and how do you like them?

[Ozz]

my riding buddy that ordered a set from them(DT rr1.1/240s/DT spokes), hit a pot-hole a couple weeks ago pretty hard. After the ride he noticed that one of the spokes was pretty loose so he took it to his shop to get it checked out. They said a bunch of the spokes were not tensioned properly and re-trued and tensioned the wheel for $10.

I guess the good news is that the wheel held up after a pretty good hit (didn't collapse).

I didn't see the hit, so I don't know how bad it was. But the bad news is that I've hit pot-holes before and have had no problems, so I guess that is my level of expectation of how wheels should hold up.

[92degrees]

I have 1K on mine now and have been very happy (DT Swiss RR 1.1, 240s, Wheelsmith spokes, 28F/28R, 2xF, 2xR, 3xR Drive). The roads here are lousy right now but I've been careful. I'm very satisfied so far.

[alembical]

I got just a rear wheel (to go with a brand new front Bontrager Race X-lite), the SpeedCific Niobium (30mm deep) aero rim with the SpeedCific 28h Perception hub and Wheelsmith XE14 bladed spokes, brass nips on the drive side and aluminum on the non drive.

I have been happy and have definitely hit more than my share of potholes and curbs. I only have a couple of hundred miles on it, so I would be real upset if any problems had come up yet, but so far, so good.

I will let everyone know if problems develop.

Alembical

[dgauthier]

my riding buddy that ordered a set from them(DT rr1.1/240s/DT spokes), hit a pot-hole a couple weeks ago pretty hard. After the ride he noticed that one of the spokes was pretty loose (. . . ) the bad news is that I've hit pot-holes before and have had no problems (. . . )

How many spokes in the wheel that you're describing?

Also, I don't see DT 240 hubs offered on the oddsandendos site. Are they listed anywhere, or can you only get them by requesting them? What kind of prices are they going for?

[Ozz]

How many spokes in the wheel that you're describing?

Also, I don't see DT 240 hubs offered on the oddsandendos site. Are they listed anywhere, or can you only get them by requesting them? What kind of prices are they going for?
32 spokes...rider is about 170 lbs.

He got the 240s by request....

He paid about $450 for the set (not sure if that included cassette- I don't think so)...still a good deal regardless of the problem. I kinda feel guilty putting that price out here, cuz even after my buddy confirmed the price a couple time with Mike, it still seems too good a deal. Must be a mistake...right?

I am sure the problems my friend had were an exception and am eager to hear more positive stories.

[Kurt]

32 spokes...rider is about 170 lbs.

He got the 240s by request....

He paid about $450 for the set (not sure if that included cassette- I don't think so)...still a good deal regardless of the problem. I kinda feel guilty putting that price out here, cuz even after my buddy confirmed the price a couple time with Mike, it still seems too good a deal. Must be a mistake...right?

I am sure the problems my friend had were an exception and am eager to hear more positive stories.

Maybe I am misreading this somehow, but are you in some way coming up with that the wheels had a bad build of some sort? You say “not tensioned properly” you hit a pothole and that’s what happens. I hit a series of potholes in my new S4, cost me a tire and 2 wheels. Wheels are meant to go on roads, not holes. I have taken my Velocity based ones 4 times on Gibraltar in Santa Barbara and I defy anyone to find a worst road to ride on – it is peppered with hundreds of potholes and ruts. Some of the parts Mike uses might be more durable than others, but as a builder he is outstanding. I have several thousand miles on mine since december w/ zero issues and nothing changes the ride of a bike better than great wheels.

[dgauthier]

it still seems too good a deal. Must be a mistake...right?


No mistake, just lotsa markup from wholesale to retail. I'll bet a set of Campy hubs cost more at wholesale, and probably cost more to manufacture, too, though they retail for much less (bike store owners please correct me if I'm wrong).

But you can't argue with the flange geometry - DT's do build up into a stronger rear wheel. Nice hubs, just don't pay retail for 'em.

[dgauthier]

By any chance, was that you on Mullholland Highway on Saturday, riding a nice polished Legend with red logos, and matching red Velocity rims? Nice bike. *Love* the wheels.

[Kurt]

By any chance, was that you on Mullholland Highway on Saturday, riding a nice polished Legend with red logos, and matching red Velocity rims? Nice bike. *Love* the wheels.

I wish it was, I was in fact suffering up Gibraltar with the SO in tow – 4k’ of gain in about 6 miles, you do the math + I have anything but a nice polished legend, my bike is the worst looking bike out there, these rains killed me. Sounds like we need to ride sometime if you are around that area, you do latigo, yerba, deer, etc? shoot me a pm when you have a sec.

decent local map:
http://www.mulhollandraceway.org/roads/topanga.html
love this site:
http://www.pashnit.com/motoroads.htm

[92degrees]

Mike didn't have 240s when I first called so there was a little wait, but he did get them in time for the arrival of my frame.

[gdw]

I picked up three sets from a friend who worked for a major manufacturer when the 240's first came out. The price for all three sets was less than what the mailorder companies were charging for one set. I bet DT is practically giving the 240s' away to builders like Mike to try to gain market share and overcome their old reputation which apparently road bikers are unaware of.

[dgauthier]

I picked up three sets from a friend who worked for a major manufacturer when the 240's first came out. The price for all three sets was less than what the mailorder companies were charging for one set. I bet DT is practically giving the 240s' away to builders like Mike to try to gain market share and overcome their old reputation which apparently road bikers are unaware of.

And that is . . . what?

[soulspinner]

I got a set from Mike and they came out of true twice. My LBS said drive side tension was a little off but in all fairness the roads this year in upstate NY are horrible. Mike offered to pay for the re-truing but the wheels are such a steal and hes so great about backing up his products I just let it go. I may have made a mistake going with a 28 spoke rear at 167 pounds. Mike said it would be fine but if I had it to do over again I would have gone 32 in the rear. Build is DT RR rims, 240 hubs and Wheelsmith 14-17 spokes, 1467 grams, 445 dollars plus he threw in ti skewers for the price of steel ones as steel ones were not in stock. Thats a great deal, and the wheels seem to be fine now. My LBS said the parts alone would cost him what the wheels cost me.

[wwtsui]

Got a set of DT rims/hubs with bladed Wheelsmith spokes for $450, including shipping -- couldn't believe the price, either. DT hubs is what he recommended even though they're not on the website -- only downside seems to be that he gets them directly from DT as opposed to from a distributor, so in my case, there was a bit of a wait. So far, no issues with going out of true, etc., and I have hit a few New England post-winter pot holes. Very satisfied, pleasure to deal with. Would definitely buy from him again.

[wooly]

I've got a pair of DT's with 240 hubs built by Mike earlier this year. Great wheel. Probably by favorite wheel inthe last 5 years. Question is though, I'm building up a new bike and was on Dave Thomas's site looking at his Speeddream AR20's, which is essentially a Velocity rim built to Am Classic front hub and a Tune rear. I thought the price was a bit steep at $560 vs my wheels that I got from Mike for $450. To be fair, I called Mike and asked if he could quote me on his Velocity AeroHead rim with White Ind hubs (I didn't want to ask to mirror the Speeddreams) and the price was still in the mid 400's.

What's the catch with the Speeddreams? Are the Tune rear hubs that much better than the Whites? Certainly the Am Classics aren't. Is Dave that much of a better builder than Mike?

[Steel Israel]

Maybe I am misreading this somehow, but are you in some way coming up with that the wheels had a bad build of some sort? You say “not tensioned properly” you hit a pothole and that’s what happens. I hit a series of potholes in my new S4, cost me a tire and 2 wheels. Wheels are meant to go on roads, not holes. I have taken my Velocity based ones 4 times on Gibraltar in Santa Barbara and I defy anyone to find a worst road to ride on – it is peppered with hundreds of potholes and ruts. Some of the parts Mike uses might be more durable than others, but as a builder he is outstanding. I have several thousand miles on mine since december w/ zero issues and nothing changes the ride of a bike better than great wheels.

I bet that plenty of our roads here in New England would make you wish to be back on Gibralter! :crap: Ever heard of frost heaves? You don't know what real pot-holes look like until you've ridden in ;) Boston!

[gdw]

The original 240's were known for bad bearings, poor seals, cracked flanges, cracked hub bodies, and problems with the ratchet system. Go over to www.mtbr.com and do a few searches. They don't have the archives available from 2000 and 2001 when the hubs were really bad but you'll understand what I'm talking about by reading some of the newer discussions. Here's a couple links which back up what I stated.

Check out this thread and the pictures of the cracked hub and flange.
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=97448&highlight=hugi+240

More flange problems.
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=48513&highlight=hugi+240

[Too Tall]

Thanks for the skinny GDW. I have not heard of any issues as of late. FWIIW I use Hugi's cheapo hubset 2002(?) Onyx for a commuting wheelset, these are excellent low maintenence hubs that get rough duty. On the tandem we use their 240 (tandem specific). The tandem hub survived PBP, 1 crossing of the USA and several crits.

I'd reckon their quality is excellent.

[ergott]

No mistake, just lotsa markup from wholesale to retail. I'll bet a set of Campy hubs cost more at wholesale, and probably cost more to manufacture, too, though they retail for much less (bike store owners please correct me if I'm wrong).

But you can't argue with the flange geometry - DT's do build up into a stronger rear wheel. Nice hubs, just don't pay retail for 'em.

DT hubs cost more both retail and wholesale. DT is a much smaller component manufacturer than Campagnolo so I guess that DT hubs cost more the make. Campy spits out a lot more hubs that DT so cost must be lower due to higher production volumes.

-Eric

[William]

I bet that plenty of our roads here in New England would make you wish to be back on Gibralter! :crap: Ever heard of frost heaves? You don't know what real pot-holes look like until you've ridden in ;) Boston!

That goes for Rhode Island too. Chip-seal ain't nothin compared to the heaves, pot holes, and crappy patch jobs around here. That's why I'm sticking to the 28's. :bike:

William

[wasfast]

my riding buddy that ordered a set from them(DT rr1.1/240s/DT spokes), hit a pot-hole a couple weeks ago pretty hard. After the ride he noticed that one of the spokes was pretty loose so he took it to his shop to get it checked out. They said a bunch of the spokes were not tensioned properly and re-trued and tensioned the wheel for $10.

As others noted, it's pretty difficult to make overall assessments after the wheel has been through some severe trama like potholes.

That said, opinions vary and "proper" spoke tension is highly opinion driven. Many still build wheels by feel and don't actually measure tension thus "proper" is one man's right against anothers.

I've not owned any of Mike's wheels but hundreds of othershave judging by the postings on Roadbikereview and similiar sites. He has an excellent reputation for value and quality. YMMV.

[wasfast]

I may have made a mistake going with a 28 spoke rear at 167 pounds. Mike said it would be fine but if I had it to do over again I would have gone 32 in the rear. Build is DT RR rims, 240 hubs and Wheelsmith 14-17 spokes, 1467 grams, 445 dollars plus he threw in ti skewers for the price of steel ones as steel ones were not in stock.

Just for reference, my rainbike is an older steel bike with 28 spoke front and rear, Open Pro's 3x. I weighed 215 when I first got it, am 195 now. Never had a single problem in the 1500 or so miles I put on it in the last year and I definitely didn't baby it.

My other wheels on my dry bike are Rolf Prima Elans. Not truing issues at all.

[Ozz]

Maybe I am misreading this somehow, but are you in some way coming up with that the wheels had a bad build of some sort? You say “not tensioned properly” you hit a pothole and that’s what happens. I hit a series of potholes in my new S4, cost me a tire and 2 wheels. Wheels are meant to go on roads, not holes. I have taken my Velocity based ones 4 times on Gibraltar in Santa Barbara and I defy anyone to find a worst road to ride on – it is peppered with hundreds of potholes and ruts. Some of the parts Mike uses might be more durable than others, but as a builder he is outstanding. I have several thousand miles on mine since december w/ zero issues and nothing changes the ride of a bike better than great wheels.
I have no idea if they were a bad build or not. They are not my wheels and I don't know how bad he hit the pot hole. I suspect that the build was fine and the pot hole whacked the wheel....the mechanic who fixed the wheel said that the wheel "was not tensioned properly" - this was after the pot hole.

Again, I am eager to hear the positive stories about Mike and the wheels to confirm my buddy just had some bad luck out on the road!

Sorry about your S4...I've done the same in my Acura...

[sam.g]

It's interesting to note that most owners of Mike's wheels have opted for the DT 240 hubs rather than his house brand, "Speedcific". Do any of the current crop of owners have experience, long term or not with these hubs? The DT 240's certainly have more cache, but are they really worth the ~$100 premium over the Speedcific?

Sam

[Kurt]

It's interesting to note that most owners of Mike's wheels have opted for the DT 240 hubs rather than his house brand, "Speedcific". Do any of the current crop of owners have experience, long term or not with these hubs? The DT 240's certainly have more cache, but are they really worth the ~$100 premium over the Speedcific?

Sam

have the speedcific (really novatech/joytech) hubs and they are just fine. The are well known in the mtb world and use a needle bearing and several large sealed units, low flange low weight, comes apart in moments. Another feature I like is the cassette stays with the free hub body so if you like to switch cassettes like I do it just takes a second. Mike does not gouge you for the extra bodies, they are around $ 30, compared to over $ 100 or $ 150 that campy charges. This year the speedcific come with a slightly new design that is backward compatible, adds 35gm to the rear hub – he offered to upgrade me for free, no thanks.

[Steve K]

I have a new pair of 30mm Speedcific rims with hubs. Only 600 miles on them so far. To date they are holding up very well. The hubs seem to be right up there or very close to the hugi 240 hubs I have used in the past. The new 30mm rim is very nice and light for its depth while maintaining good strength given how solid they feel on the road. We decided to try out a light build (20x24 spokes) for a 185-190 pounder. So far the wheels are true and have been over some rough road and couple good hits at speed.

[Kurt]

I have a new pair of 30mm Speedcific rims with hubs. Only 600 miles on them so far. To date they are holding up very well. The hubs seem to be right up there or very close to the hugi 240 hubs I have used in the past. The new 30mm rim is very nice and light for its depth while maintaining good strength given how solid they feel on the road. We decided to try out a light build (20x24 spokes) for a 185-190 pounder. So far the wheels are true and have been over some rough road and couple good hits at speed.

should be fine with a lower spoke count, but you could have split the diff with 24/28, we are the same weight and I will be most interested in how they hold up - did you use fancy spokes or what?

[Steve K]

I was leaning towards 28. After talking with Mike we decided to experiment given I'm one of the first riders on the new rims and will give him feedback. The spokes are wheelsmith XE15s on the front with Al nips and WS XE14s and on the rear with brass nips drive Al non-drive side.

[terry b]

several of our gang were ordering these a few weeks ago. Have the wheels arrived and how do you like them?

Not part of the "gang", but I will offer my endorsement of Mike and his wheels.

I have two pair currently on the road - first is Speedicific with IRD Cadence, 24F and 28R (I weigh about 155.) No complaints, no problems and at 1412g, a pretty nice wheelset for $340.

Also in that price range, a second set built with Speedcific and DT rims, 32F and R (didn't want to wait for 28s to come into stock.) About a robust a set of wheels as I could dream of - excellent ride and not piggy at 1525g.

My third set came in last night - 1350g, Am Classic 24F and DT240 28R. Nimble rims. Nicely built, $470.

Honestly, I can't see how you can beat this guy, his prices and his service. As an example of the latter, we had a problem with my CC being triple charged on my last order. I called him at 9:30PM his time and his wife Alex was on the phone the next morning having called their CC handler. Event though they'd not yet figured out where the money went, she wanted to fix it immediately. Rather than screw with a card refund, they wrote me a business check and sent it overnight mail. How many other small businessmen would jump through that kind of hoop?

[dgauthier]

The original 240's were known for bad bearings, poor seals, cracked flanges, cracked hub bodies, and problems with the ratchet system. Go over to www.mtbr.com and do a few searches. They don't have the archives available from 2000 and 2001 when the hubs were really bad but you'll understand what I'm talking about by reading some of the newer discussions. Here's a couple links which back up what I stated.

Check out this thread and the pictures of the cracked hub and flange.
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=97448&highlight=hugi+240

More flange problems.
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=48513&highlight=hugi+240

Thanks you so much for those extra "data points" gdw.

I'm sure folks on this forum will testify that DT has put such problems behind them since then (speak up yeay or nay, everybody). However, I understand DT hubs will soon be manufactured in Thailand (if they haven't started already). This opens the door for a potential whole new round of teething pains in DT's manufacturing process (to say nothing of making their high cost even harder to justify).

Hmmm. I just *hate* jacking with broken bike parts. A 10-15% increase in rear left side spoke tension (thanks for the spoke calc link, ergott) isn't worth even a moment's aggravation.

[dirtdigger88]

My take- Mike builds some great hoops- the problem (not pointing any fingers at any forum member) is that people ask mike to build the lightest wheel possible- Remember light- strong- cheap- Pick Two. I have heard 200 lb guys ***** that their 1200 gram wheel set wasnt stiff enough or bent when it hit a pot hole- Mike will build you what you ask for- be careful of what you ask for

Jason

[terry b]

My take- Mike builds some great hoops- the problem (not pointing any fingers at any forum member) is that people ask mike to build the lightest wheel possible- Remember light- strong- cheap- Pick Two. I have heard 200 lb guys ***** that their 1200 gram wheel set wasnt stiff enough or bent when it hit a pot hole- Mike will build you what you ask for- be careful of what you ask for

Jason

No doubt - in fact, even at my greatly diminshed weight, he always discusses the ramifications of too light a build.

Personally, I like to stay in the 1400s.