Bike Shop Observations today

[Smiley]

Dropped off Bumperjohn's Tig Coupled Road Bedford today at Spokes Etc. in Alex. Va. shop, ran into the owner and we were discussing the complete take over of Carbone in his shop. Even Carbone mountain bike frames..... wow. We talked more and he said that they hardly get requests for Titanium bikes anymore. So I told him what I had in the delivery box in Bumperjohn's bike and we proceeded to peek inside to show off the welds and paint of the Bedford along with the steel fork and 1 1/8 inch fork crown and steel steerer. Nothing like that was even remotrely close to what he had in his shop.

What a terrible thing for the average consumer, young riders will never get to know what the new steels look or ride like. I will leave it to veterans like you who populate forums like these to keep the flames alive. Meanwhile Bumperjohn has a beauty to unveil very soon to you guys. All the carbone frames really look alot alike and its hard for me to believe that they all ride so differently cause they for the most part are crit design bikes.

[thwart]

Wise words.

Too much obsessing on what the pros ride, too much obsessing on weight.

And... bike companies that can have mass produced carbon frames made relatively cheaply...

But you know, this may be a bit like CD's. They pushed vinyl right out of the picture, but it's made a bit of a comeback.

[Ahneida Ride]

Wise words.

But you know, this may be a bit like CD's. They pushed vinyl right out of the picture, but it's made a bit of a comeback.

A friend of mine has a hot chit stereo, mostly 1980's esoteric components.
Has a 10K CD player with all sorts of enhanced gizmo's

His 275 frn turntable kicks the CD Player's butt.

CD sounds Phenomenal .... Turntable sounds Live.
Even mono records are most impressive.

Is there an analogy here? :p :hello:

[AllenSF]

As a shop owner, I've seen the same thing happen. We do still get requests for Titanium but very rarely for steel. It is a shame that so many people aren't willing to try another flavor. I don't have a problem with carbon frames really and I do appreciate the ride character of high quality carbon frames from Serotta, Parlee's US made frames and a few others. The problem is that the majority of the mass produced carbon frames are nothing aside from great marketing. My hope is to get people to understand the value of something made by passionate hands instead of buying what the inside front cover of magazine x told them to. Bikes made by cyclists, how has that become a foreign concept?

[BobbyJones]

But you know, this may be a bit like CD's. They pushed vinyl right out of the picture, but it's made a bit of a comeback.


Nope, not really a comeback. Although vinyl production is up and getting a lot of press in the news media, sales numbers are still "a rounding error" in comparison to other formats.

[Dekonick]

Steel and Ti still have a place in the bicycle world... give it time and you may see it fill more than just the niche we all live in...

[Louis]

But you know, this may be a bit like CD's. They pushed vinyl right out of the picture, but it's made a bit of a comeback.

With i-tunes and MP3's (or whatever the next format will be) CD volume will soon be down around LP levels.

[dimsy]

With i-tunes and MP3's (or whatever the next format will be) CD volume will soon be down around LP levels.

i haven't bought a cd since 2001.

if that's any perspective for you. mind you... i bought my first CD in 1990, i was 10 years old.

[1centaur]

young riders will never get to know what the new steels look or ride like....All the carbone frames really look alot alike and its hard for me to believe that they all ride so differently cause they for the most part are crit design bikes.

Funny, to me the steel frames look more alike than the carbon frames, apart from paint choices. And I'm guessing carbon frames have greater ride differences than the steels too, geometry for geometry.

As for young riders "never" knowing how a steel bike rides, I guess that depends on how long forever is. The longer they ride, the more they will become aware of steel bikes, and some will be curious and have the money.

I don't think we'll go back to steel; more likely we'll move on from carbon. Then I'll be the one reminiscing about the unique feel of a good carbon bike.

[rounder]

I went to the Lutherville Bikeshop (near Baltimore) last Sunday to do some work on my new K. Bedford. About a year ago, most of the bikes were Scotts. Serottta, Pinarello and a few Moots. This year the shop has become mainly Specialized, with a few discounted Serottas and Pinarellos. I took my bike there for service because i know that he knows how to tune Campy (he rides Campy himself). I was watching him work on the bike. He said he did not understand it at first, but likes Campy 11-speed. He used a Campy 11-speed tool to install the chain. He spent lots of time adjusting the derailleurs, and pinged the derailleur cables every few minutes to make sure that they had the proper tension. He asked if it was ok to adjust the brakes (sure). The amount of care spent in tuning the bike was appreciated. I asked him if he liked the bike and he said...like it quite alot. That is the kindof LBS i like and will continue to support.

[thwart]

Nope, not really a comeback. According to the Recording Industry Association of America, records are the only physical music format to experience any growth in sales. From 2007 to 2008, vinyl LP and EP sales rose by 124 percent – a figure which, though significant, may be modest since it doesn’t account for used or independent record sales. Digital sales rose by only 30 percent.

At Hear Again Music & Movies in Gainesville, Florida owner Andrew Schaer has seen a growth in record sales over the past four months.

Schaer formerly expected about equal sales in movies and music, but thanks to the vinyl-revival, records now outsell both CDs and DVDs.

“What’s also great about vinyl is that people are finally contributing to the artists they love again and supporting local stores,” Schaer said.

I agree that while this is still a small percentage, hopefully it's what the future holds for steel bike sales... a resurgence.

[StellaBlue]

What's a bike shop?

[eddief]

was that matte/satin black Tournesol once owned by Douglas Brooks and then maybe Dave Thompson. Brooks saddle, leather tape. Not so light, but what a looker that was. Where is that beauty now?

May I remind the younger folk:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=27804&highlight=tournesol+parlee

[CaptStash]

...What a terrible thing for the average consumer, young riders will never get to know what the new steels look or ride like. I will leave it to veterans like you who populate forums like these to keep the flames alive. Meanwhile Bumperjohn has a beauty to unveil very soon to you guys. All the carbone frames really look alot alike and its hard for me to believe that they all ride so differently cause they for the most part are crit design bikes.


Not so fast. I don't know how they are selling, but Raleigh's line of steel road bikes are pretty nice looking and are priced very competitively. I have seen them in a few LBS's here in Seattle.

Let's hope the Raleighs sell well and help breed a whole new batch of folks who understand it isn't only about weight.

Captstash....

[RPS]

If this turns into another modern carbon versus legendary steel thread, with run-of-the-mill and boring titanium filling in the middle, I’d like to know where that leaves aluminum. ;)

[BobbyJones]

I agree that while this is still a small percentage, hopefully it's what the future holds for steel bike sales... a resurgence.

If you mean big press but small sales then I think we're already there!

[Shoeman]

If this turns into another modern carbon versus legendary steel thread, with run-of-the-mill and boring titanium filling in the middle, I’d like to know where that leaves aluminum. ;)
Exactly what is ALUMINUM again????

[StellaBlue]

Exactly what is ALUMINUM again????

I'll take a Love #3 over many available bikes today. ;)

[Jason E]

definitely avoiding the carbon v. steel type thread...

Back to the OP, I think it is a fantastic thing to be in a shop when a new custom bike comes in. As someone said earlier, steel and ti make look like a lot of the same, just in different colors, but when you unpack them... When the bubble wrap and cardboard comes off and you see the flawless paint, the perfect welds... Steel or Ti, I think all it takes is a new frame hanging on a work stand in the back and a little tour to see the quality before it gets built up.

I think that would be a neat addition to any "learn how to fix your own flat" class, show people who do not even realize this level of quality exists something like this.

[Bob Loblaw]

My hope is to get people to understand the value of something made by passionate hands instead of buying what the inside front cover of magazine x told them to. Bikes made by cyclists, how has that become a foreign concept?

So true.

In a way arguing for steel or custom carbon is like arguing in favor of a hand-forged katana when 9mm semi-autos are cheap and abundant.

A bike can be so much more than "laterally stiff and vertically compliant" or the "second best midrange enthusiast bike of 2009."

BL

[RPS]

In a way arguing for steel or custom carbon is like arguing in favor of a hand-forged katana when 9mm semi-autos are cheap and abundant.
Art versus function?

[Jack Brunk]

One of my closest friends owns a very successful bike shop that sells close to 500 bikes a month. If he changed his inventory to ti or steel he'd be asking to rent a room at my house. I'm in the shop all the time and people want carbon flat out. It may suck but it is what it is.

[StellaBlue]

One of my closest friends owns a very successful bike shop that sells close to 500 bikes a month. If he changed his inventory to ti or steel he'd be asking to rent a room at my house. I'm in the shop all the time and people want carbon flat out. It may suck but it is what it is.

It doesn't suck at all. If everyone wanted Steel, the wait would be 20 years from the builders I like.

[Chad Engle]

I'm 40 and a stud cross racer in his early 20's sold me a steel Serotta. Had plenty of other bikes in the shop to show me, I was riding a 105 GT at the time. Don't know what that says about the what the youth will ride but a good shop will put you on what works and fits you. At least mine did.

That being said my next road bike will be a Moots or a Kirk. I love my Serotta but there are so many flavors to try.

I believe material is irrelevant, find the builder and the bike will work regardless of what the tubes are made of.

[93legendti]

My local shop went gaga over my Kirk JK Special and Spectrum coupled ti bikes, but they sell what they sell. They are in a lousy, depressed city 10 minutes from me. The owner (and everyone there are super friendly) and I asked him how they are surviving in Michigan with our high unemployment. He said most of their bikes sell for $500-low enough not to be crossed off buyers' minds in a tough economy.

Over here, bike stores are happy to be open and selling bikes- steel vs carbon/ti/alu? That's a dream for another time.

[StellaBlue]

I believe material is irrelevant, find the builder and the bike will work regardless of what the tubes are made of.

I have bought Carbon, steel, and Alu frames over the last decade. None of the frames I bought were carried by the LBS. IMO, the LBS is more irrelevant than material. If that's possible...

[Bob Loblaw]

Art versus function?

More like art and function combined versus pure function.

BL

[avalonracing]

CD sounds Phenomenal .... Turntable sounds Live.



That's believable... Because as someone who has been to A LOT of live shows I can't attest to the fact that live shows usually sound like ****. ;)

[Ahneida Ride]

That's believable... Because as someone who has been to A LOT of live shows I can't attest to the fact that live shows usually sound like ****. ;)

Which raises the question. ....

Just what is the goal of musical reproduction? :help:

faithfully reproduce the original music?
or
generate good sound?

I humbly submit that most audiophiles would choose the former. ;)

---------------------------

One could also ask .... what is the purpose of a good bike paint job?

make an exemplary frame perfect?
or
polish a turd?

[R2D2]

was that matte/satin black Tournesol once owned by Douglas Brooks and then maybe Dave Thompson. Brooks saddle, leather tape. Not so light, but what a looker that was. Where is that beauty now?

May I remind the younger folk:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=27804&highlight=tournesol+parlee

Justin owns the Toursenol here in Charlotte,NC,
I've have right of first refusal if he ever parts with it. HAHAHA

[Ti Designs]

I think the point of this thread is that time marches on. Yes, it does. Some of us grow very fond of certain things along the way and complain how things change (for me it's Dura-Ace 9-speed, good manual cameras and analog audio) but that's just too bad, the general focus is always going to be on the next thing. I can give plenty of hard examples of why what I use is better than the new stuff, but it would be foolish of me to push 9-speed stuff on my customers knowing the bottom brackets will never be made again. The clock only runs in one direction. I use 9-speed stuff, I like it and I have a lifetime supply of parts - good for me. For anyone new getting into the sport it would mean hunting for replacement parts, often with dismal results. They don't know the difference, so why would anyone do that to themselves?

The best example I can give of how I hate the push for new technology and how more features have replaced good design is my first trip to the camera store to look at digital cameras. Back in the early 80's I had a Minolta SRT-101. It was all manual, but that was OK 'cause I knew how to use it. It could also double as a hammer... My good camera was my XD-11, but I stuck to the SRT in this case. I could focus and compose a shot in less than a second with that thing. In comparison, I went to a good camera store to speak with an "expert", and I watched him fumble with settings and modes and switches and little tiny buttons. My conclusion was this: If I wanted a camera that could do what my old camera could do, I had to get a pro camera where I could shut all that other crap off and just shoot - A Nikon D2x. And that would cost about 20 times what my SRT cost, and none of my lenses would fit. Not that much is different in the bike industry, I could buy a custom steel frame and switch to new components, or hunt around for older ones if I wanted. It would cost many times more than my bikes in the past...

This idea that things from the past will come back is a pipe dream at best. Serotta isn't going to make CSI's any more - lots of forum members would like for this to happen, but when it comes time to write the check... There's a long list of things people loved, but are no more. Those are the things we hold on to for dear life, when they are gone we have fond memories of them. Seems my whole life is that way. Such is life...


For what it's worth, there are some things that don't change. Cycling technique is one of them - and thank god for that! I watch these young kids on their carbon bikes getting pushed up the hills by John Allis (my coach) on his 35 year old Raleigh and I have to smile. Steinway & Sons may be the last hand built piano company in the US, but pianos will always be pianos, at least in my lifetime. I don't see them adding hot keys and look-up functions any time soon.

[Climb01742]

One of my closest friends owns a very successful bike shop that sells close to 500 bikes a month

but jack, those 500 bikes sold a month are all to you! :D ;) :banana:

[oldpotatoe]

Dropped off Bumperjohn's Tig Coupled Road Bedford today at Spokes Etc. in Alex. Va. shop, ran into the owner and we were discussing the complete take over of Carbone in his shop. Even Carbone mountain bike frames..... wow. We talked more and he said that they hardly get requests for Titanium bikes anymore. So I told him what I had in the delivery box in Bumperjohn's bike and we proceeded to peek inside to show off the welds and paint of the Bedford along with the steel fork and 1 1/8 inch fork crown and steel steerer. Nothing like that was even remotrely close to what he had in his shop.

What a terrible thing for the average consumer, young riders will never get to know what the new steels look or ride like. I will leave it to veterans like you who populate forums like these to keep the flames alive. Meanwhile Bumperjohn has a beauty to unveil very soon to you guys. All the carbone frames really look alot alike and its hard for me to believe that they all ride so differently cause they for the most part are crit design bikes.

Never say never. I just sold a beautiful custom steel Waterford to a really sweet 18 year old girl(and her father). Yes, bikeshop, USA is awash with trekspecializedgiantcannondalekonafujifelt.....

I've always said no such thing as a bad bike, just bad bike shops. Entry level, Asian made carbon can be a great first bike for anybody. Once they get miles in and knowledge, many step up to a metal bike as they get older for it's ride, looks, durability.

BUT as others have said...only 2 things you can measure in a bike shop. Weight and price. Weight is vastly overplayed. Price is way too high for these really inexpensive frames made in Asia. Lots of $ for decals and supposed 'technology' in these frames('Tech from the marketing department).

[spartacus]

I've read through the posts in this thread. Is it the business model of the typical LBS that is killing steel and titanium sales rather than carbon?

[oldpotatoe]

I've read through the posts in this thread. Is it the business model of the typical LBS that is killing steel and titanium sales rather than carbon?

Of course. Like golf clubs, tennis rackets, cameras, skiis.....the question I have always had is 'sell them what they want' or 'tell them what they want and sell that'. Recognizing demand or creating demand. I think it's number 2.

PLUS manufacturers, like when everything was aluminum, make bigger margins(and they need bigger margins in this economy and with bike sales in general..been pretty flat for years) on an Asian made frame, parts. Carbon is painted as the 'next great thing', but like threadless forks and compact frames, it is cheaper to make, not a better product necessarily.

Look at motorcycles.The market is awash with Japanese, zero maintenance sport bikes BUT Ducati, who still uses an air cooled twin, does fine. Just about everybody has an electric watch on their wrist but Rolex and others do just fine with mechanical watches.

Carbon, carbon everywhere but small steel and ti makers are doing fine..like Waterford and Moots(which I sell). I just think recognizing the market and attacking that market is key. Not just trying to be just like everybody else, which is what most carbon bike makers seem to be doing.

[zap]

Dropped off Bumperjohn's Tig Coupled Road Bedford today at Spokes Etc. in Alex. Va. shop, ran into the owner and we were discussing the complete take over of Carbone in his shop. Even Carbone mountain bike frames..... wow. We talked more and he said that they hardly get requests for Titanium bikes anymore. So I told him what I had in the delivery box in Bumperjohn's bike and we proceeded to peek inside to show off the welds and paint of the Bedford along with the steel fork and 1 1/8 inch fork crown and steel steerer. Nothing like that was even remotrely close to what he had in his shop.

What a terrible thing for the average consumer, young riders will never get to know what the new steels look or ride like. I will leave it to veterans like you who populate forums like these to keep the flames alive. Meanwhile Bumperjohn has a beauty to unveil very soon to you guys. All the carbone frames really look alot alike and its hard for me to believe that they all ride so differently cause they for the most part are crit design bikes.

Smiley my friend, you must ride a composite frame.

Alternatively, I need to ride some modern steels.

[RPS]

More like art and function combined versus pure function.

BL
Agree. However, I think there is a shift in priorities. In affluent societies it’s easier to justify a premium for art or an art component that adds little to function. Beautiful paint or smooth welds don’t make a bike function better for most riders who are primarily interested in riding instead of looking at their bikes or showing them off as a status symbol. Everything else being equal most buyers will indeed place some value on aesthetics, but as we are forced to become a more frugal society the bias towards function at the expense of art is unavoidable IMHO. There are just too many other vital things competing for limited resources.