Carl's Cool Crumptonesque Carbon Creations

[rpm]

After a couple of years of learning and testing, Carl Strong is now officially offering carbon frames. Check out his tour of the frame making process.

http://strongframes.com/frames_&_pricing/carbon/

[1centaur]

Very interesting, and a well designed web tour. Not sure I understand what he does when he "fillets." Any thoughts there?

[ti_boi]

Very nice! Educating someone in this type of thing is the first step in making them appreciate the art behind and perhaps opening their wallet.

[David Kirk]

I've seen the bikes up close and they look top shelf.

Dave

[eddief]

the history section made me want to take a nap. Carl has been through one heck of time getting things planted in his business. I wish him the best of luck in the carbonated arena.

[dbh]

If you compare Carl's new carbon offering to what the Trek/Specialized/Cannondales of the world are marketing for high end customers, this is pretty damned competitive from a price perspective. Figure around 7 to 8k for a complete ride. MSRP on a SuperSix Hi-MOD 1 Dura-Ace is a hair under 7 grand. With Carl, it's all custom too.

[rwsaunders]

Nice description of the process...Carl makes it look so easy.

Nick Crumpton has also been running a mini photo-documentary regarding his process over at VSalon...it's quite an interesting read.

[wc1934]

thanks for the link - spent the past hour going thur his website - pretty interesting history and he makes some really beautiful bikes -

enjoyed the amazing people videos too -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo0Cazxj_yc&feature=player_embedded

[avalonracing]

It is a nice website. I was lucky enough to fine a like-new Strong for my wife. It is a fabulous bike and after her first ride she said, "I finally get it why you guys talk about these expensive custom bikes! I feel like I could ride all day on this thing!" I was glad that she was happy but also because I would never have to justify an expensive bike (not that I ever did).

Anyway, Strong is on my short list of builders for my next custom bike. (Which will be titanium, of course).

[dimsy]

Very interesting, and a well designed web tour. Not sure I understand what he does when he "fillets." Any thoughts there?

From what I gather, I'd imagine it means reinforcing the joints with smooth transition lines. As he puts it, joints on carbon frames cause the material to be crimped (bending the fiber). I'd imagine it also leaves a visible seam. so to avoid that it appears as if he reinforces the joints with a double layer of carbon, of different types. It gives it that seamless look as if it were fillet brazed, and apparently strengthens the joint.

That's how I understood it anyway. Anyone else want to chime in, please do.

[Team Murray]

The epoxy fillets are used to protect the fibers at the tube ends from fraying. They also serve the purpose of creating a smoother transition from one tube to another. The strength is mostly derived from the CEL, which are used to transfer the tensile and sheer loads from one tube to another. The mitered tube technique looks cleaner and allows full customization, or batch sizes can be as small as one. Mitered tube is a concept that DeRosa and many other Italian builders use to create custom carbon frames, since it allows them to create "handmade" frames without a huge autoclave.

Our friends at Serotta use the other technique of tube and lug, which use a lug to transfer load. I read in an article that Serotta casts a carbon billet, from which they machine a custom lug, at any angle. So it seems this process is a bit expensive. One can argue that tube-n-lug technique is stronger than the mitered tube. Both will probably never fail.

The 3rd technique for creating a CF frame is curing it as a monocoque, which is probably the best for transferring loads. Frame walls can be thinner and diameters larger. However, you need a mold for every size.

[gearguywb]

The big problem with monocoque frames is that you lose the ability to tune the ride for the desired performance, weight of the rider, sizing, etc.

Molds are expensive, but the end result for mass producers is a much cheaper cost of product when making hundreds and thousands of the exact same product.

Therein lies the beauty of a Crumpton or Strong, totally custom carbon for the rider that wants a fully customized frameset.

[zap]

Pretty nice.

Wonder if Carl would build a tandem frame. I have something wicked cool in mind.

[weisan]

slow morning....sat down with my 4-yr-old and watched ALL the videos on the site. He was mesmerized as much as I was also. My favorite part was the fast-forward motions of Carl going back and forth between the wielding stand and the alignment table several times. By that, you know it's done right. :D
I also like the way his shop is set up, I can spend hours and hours inside without getting bored. Carl certainly knows his stuff.

[oldpotatoe]

After a couple of years of learning and testing, Carl Strong is now officially offering carbon frames. Check out his tour of the frame making process.

http://strongframes.com/frames_&_pricing/carbon/

Well, it has all the bells and whistles...oversized internal headset, sloping top tube, seatmast, BB30...check, check and check. BUT I think like Calfee and bamboo, he is forgetting what made him popular(metal bikes) and is 'doin' what everybody else is doin'. I guess from a financial perspective, it's a decent move but I wonder what his frame will offer, be, that a similar putnameofsmalluscarboncustommakerhere doesn't offer. Particularly no bike shop carries them so nobody will be able to ride before buying it. BUT I've seen his steel and they are very nice.

[skijoring]

Well, it has all the bells and whistles...oversized internal headset, sloping top tube, seatmast, BB30...check, check and check. BUT I think like Calfee and bamboo, he is forgetting what made him popular(metal bikes) and is 'doin' what everybody else is doin'. I guess from a financial perspective, it's a decent move but I wonder what his frame will offer, be, that a similar putnameofsmalluscarboncustommakerhere doesn't offer. Particularly no bike shop carries them so nobody will be able to ride before buying it. BUT I've seen his steel and they are very nice.

I think carbon frames are only going to get more popular, and he is a tinkerer in steel, ti (and formerly aluminum), and so it seems a natural progression. Guy has some serious chops, and his processes are so dialed....i'd buy one if I could afford it.

The new golden age of framebuilding applies to all materials in my mind... :beer:

[1centaur]

he is ..'doin' what everybody else is doin'. I guess from a financial perspective, it's a decent move but I wonder what his frame will offer, be, that a similar putnameofsmalluscarboncustommakerhere doesn't offer.

Arguably, there are far fewer people doing what he is doing in carbon than doing what he is doing in metal, like, 50 to 1? I'm impressed by the attention to detail, that he learned from Nick, and that he put together the information on that website before launching. You can learn a lot about someone by how he sells his product.

[93legendti]

I had a Ti Strong and it rode amazingly well. I'd get another Strong in a heartbeat.

[Climb01742]

i own a strong frame. and have had a few nice conversations with him. my sense is, carl is "frame builder". in the best sense of that phrase. he's a problem-solver, a tinkerer, a what-if sort of guy. so rather than being wedded to a particular frame material, he's wedded, if you will, to exploring, pushing and trying to build the best frames he can that ride certain ways and solve certain "problems". in that light, he'd be doing his curiosity and his talent a disservice if he didn't explore carbon. i'd also venture to say, carl wouldn't offer a carbon frame unless he was satisfied it offered something special. he just didn't strike me as bandwagon, flavor-of-the-month guy. like dave kirk and dario p., he's curious and trying to solve challenges new ways.

[rice rocket]

The big problem with monocoque frames is that you lose the ability to tune the ride for the desired performance, weight of the rider, sizing, etc.

Your external mold doesn't determine the number of layers you use in your layup.

[rice rocket]

You can learn a lot about someone by how he sells his product.
Really?

The processes described are pretty basic, with a whole bunch of marketing verbiage thrown in. The processes described are no different than what the manufacturers tried in the 80s?

I fully respect Carl for who his is and what he does, but while he's probably at the forefront of steel bike technology, there's about 20 years of development between what he's doing and what the bulk of the composite bike industry is doing.

[130R]

it seems like he's doing what Litespeed did when they went into the aluminum and carbon market

big mistake.

[oldpotatoe]

it seems like he's doing what Litespeed did when they went into the aluminum and carbon market

big mistake.

Gotta agree with this and ricerocket...

'do one thing and do it well' comes to mind but we'll see. I think those who love the Strong metal bikes 'may' be put off with his entry into the materialofthemoment. I know I would if Moots started with carbon plugs and Waterford started making carbon or aluminum.

[93legendti]

i own a strong frame. and have had a few nice conversations with him. my sense is, carl is "frame builder". in the best sense of that phrase. he's a problem-solver, a tinkerer, a what-if sort of guy. so rather than being wedded to a particular frame material, he's wedded, if you will, to exploring, pushing and trying to build the best frames he can that ride certain ways and solve certain "problems". in that light, he'd be doing his curiosity and his talent a disservice if he didn't explore carbon. i'd also venture to say, carl wouldn't offer a carbon frame unless he was satisfied it offered something special. he just didn't strike me as bandwagon, flavor-of-the-month guy. like dave kirk and dario p., he's curious and trying to solve challenges new ways.
I'd say this hits the nail on the head. For a while Carl offered a bike that was steel, carbon and ti tubed. I'm sure it rode great.

[1centaur]

Really?

The processes described are pretty basic, with a whole bunch of marketing verbiage thrown in. The processes described are no different than what the manufacturers tried in the 80s?

I fully respect Carl for who his is and what he does, but while he's probably at the forefront of steel bike technology, there's about 20 years of development between what he's doing and what the bulk of the composite bike industry is doing.

Yes really. Nick, Bob Parlee and Crag Calfee did not lay out their processes so clearly when they started. In fact, Nick's discussion of what he does that just came out on VS was of massive interest to the framebuilders there, not a yawner at all, and Strong's process bears some similarities. Much of what climb says comes across in Strong's site comments, so yes, there's plenty to perceive if one is looking for it.

I don't know what Trek and the Asian factories do to turn out their frames, so I'll leave it to pros to discuss why they think the big guys are more advanced in their methods than the custom guys. Empirically, I hear more complaints about big guy frames and more praise about custom guy frames, so if you say there's a large numbers bias to the big guy complaints then the converse favors the small guys on the praise side.

[Peter B]

The big companies all employ outsourced production and are focused on process throughput (widgets per hour) and sku's (a few sizes fit most). Custom builders also need to be aware of cost of goods produced relative to price point, but have the luxury of zeroing in on the unique needs of *you* as customer.

The modern mass producers long ago moved away from lugged steel construction. Does that reduce or invalidate the work of Sachs, Weigle, Llewelyn, Kellogg, Kirk, Della Santa, Zanconato, Vanilla, et. al.?

I applaud Carl for taking the time to do his homework first. It appears to me he brings a solid product to the market. The methods he employs may not curry favor with the mass producers (see above) but have yet to doom Crumpton or Parlee. Quite the contrary.

[oldpotatoe]

The big companies all employ outsourced production and are focused on process throughput (widgets per hour) and sku's (a few sizes fit most). Custom builders also need to be aware of cost of goods produced relative to price point, but have the luxury of zeroing in on the unique needs of *you* as customer.

The modern mass producers long ago moved away from lugged steel construction. Does that reduce or invalidate the work of Sachs, Weigle, Llewelyn, Kellogg, Kirk, Della Santa, Zanconato, Vanilla, et. al.?

I applaud Carl for taking the time to do his homework first. It appears to me he brings a solid product to the market. The methods he employs may not curry favor with the mass producers (see above) but have yet to doom Crumpton or Parlee. Quite the contrary.

Except Bob Parlee and Nick Crumpton never made anything but carbon..I think. I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm sure he'll sell 'em...but geeezz, carbon, carbon everywhere...

[rphetteplace]

[QUOTE=oldpotatoe]Well, it has all the bells and whistles...oversized internal headset, sloping top tube, seatmast, BB30...check, check and check. BUT I think like Calfee and bamboo, he is forgetting what made him popular(metal bikes) and is 'doin' what everybody else is doin'. I guess from a financial perspective, it's a decent move but I wonder what his frame will offer, be, that a similar putnameofsmalluscarboncustommakerhere doesn't offer. Particularly no bike shop carries them so nobody will be able to ride before buying it. BUT I've seen his steel and they are very nice.[/QUOTE

....to me what it would offer is Carl's knowledge and experience.

[rice rocket]

Yes really. Nick, Bob Parlee and Crag Calfee did not lay out their processes so clearly when they started. In fact, Nick's discussion of what he does that just came out on VS was of massive interest to the framebuilders there, not a yawner at all, and Strong's process bears some similarities. Much of what climb says comes across in Strong's site comments, so yes, there's plenty to perceive if one is looking for it.

Perhaps I'm somewhat jaded having worked with composites for the last 10 years, and something that I could whip up in my garage doesn't entirely impress me? That said, composites have so many variables that just seeing the process doesn't mean you can create it (which I'm sure is why Nick doesn't feel like he's giving away that much showing his processes). Just jumping into carbon bikes because you've made metal bikes in the past doesn't instill much confidence.

As for the process itself, my biggest complaint with this method of construction has to be using mitered tubes and ending fiber chains exactly where most your stress is. It's just mirroring how you would construct a welded steel/Ti/aluminum frame, and ignoring what makes a composite construction advantageous. Lugged construction actually MAKES SENSE in composites. Most manufacturers now have single-piece bladder molded tube junctions, where you can achieve better fiber compaction and eliminate voids, and have a greater bonding surface for the connecting tubes. While you can achieve ~2 atm (29 psi) pressure using vacuum bagging, bladder molding in current bikes are using 150+ psi to compact carbon plies.

In the end, does it really matter? What you lose in strength to weight, you can make up with additional material targeted to specific areas (another beauty of composites), so who really cares except the ultra-weight weenies? Cervelo cares, Specialized cares, and their customers care, but these aren't the same people buying Carl Strong's wares. However, having been around engineering so long, I'm not impressed.


Empirically, I hear more complaints about big guy frames and more praise about custom guy frames, so if you say there's a large numbers bias to the big guy complaints then the converse favors the small guys on the praise side.


Empirically, a number of things can go wrong. Quality control is your biggest enemy/friend there, and I sure as hell hope a low volume frame manufacturer never sends a bike out the door without a battery of tests.

[nicrump]

Except Bob Parlee and Nick Crumpton never made anything but carbon..I think. I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm sure he'll sell 'em...but geeezz, carbon, carbon everywhere...

i started building steel in '95. fillet brazed and lugged. i even have a fair amount of tig experience. my background in the bike industry was fairly extensive before building. i didn't come from a boat or composites background. i am a bike guy.

time will tell but i expect this small one man builder carbon thing will grow. while it is behind where i thought it would be to date, it will catch up.

[oldpotatoe]

i started building steel in '95. fillet brazed and lugged. i even have a fair amount of tig experience. my background in the bike industry was fairly extensive before building. i didn't come from a boat or composites background. i am a bike guy.

time will tell but i expect this small one man builder carbon thing will grow. while it is behind where i thought it would be to date, it will catch up.

Thanks...do you make any metal frames now? I sell more steel and ti than anything cuz trekspecializedgiantfugicannondale...etc doesn't. If I can get them on a demo bike, I usually sell one.

Plus since carbon is so 'tuneable', and ride quality so subjective, how do buyers get around the 'I like the way this frame rides' for small, not in bike shop, builders?

Thanks for responding. Always interesting to hear from frame builders.

[nicrump]

rocket, i had typed out a very long technical response... but then decided my **** is out there to speak for itself and you don't deserve the response. why? we only know of your composites experience by what you claim here anonymously. while you may have some experience, you probably work with a team on something having little to do with what i do. you could describe that here and i would still lack the importance info in what you do as you lack on what i do.

i am a framebuilder who figured out how to make carbon tubes stick together in a fashion that exceeds the requirement. where have i fallen short? there are details you are not aware of and test data proving what i do.


Perhaps I'm somewhat jaded having worked with composites for the last 10 years, and something that I could whip up in my garage doesn't entirely impress me? That said, composites have so many variables that just seeing the process doesn't mean you can create it (which I'm sure is why Nick doesn't feel like he's giving away that much showing his processes). Just jumping into carbon bikes because you've made metal bikes in the past doesn't instill much confidence.

As for the process itself, my biggest complaint with this method of construction has to be using mitered tubes and ending fiber chains exactly where most your stress is. It's just mirroring how you would construct a welded steel/Ti/aluminum frame, and ignoring what makes a composite construction advantageous. Lugged construction actually MAKES SENSE in composites. Most manufacturers now have single-piece bladder molded tube junctions, where you can achieve better fiber compaction and eliminate voids, and have a greater bonding surface for the connecting tubes. While you can achieve ~2 atm (29 psi) pressure using vacuum bagging, bladder molding in current bikes are using 150+ psi to compact carbon plies.

In the end, does it really matter? What you lose in strength to weight, you can make up with additional material targeted to specific areas (another beauty of composites), so who really cares except the ultra-weight weenies? Cervelo cares, Specialized cares, and their customers care, but these aren't the same people buying Carl Strong's wares. However, having been around engineering so long, I'm not impressed.





Empirically, a number of things can go wrong. Quality control is your biggest enemy/friend there, and I sure as hell hope a low volume frame manufacturer never sends a bike out the door without a battery of tests.

[Lifelover]

Just watch the video's. His shop is super cool! Kind of dispels the struggling frame builder myth. I know that for any sale there is just as much time spent not fabricating as there is fabricating but it looks like a frame a day woudl not be a stretch at all.


I would love to see that same type of vid from someone like DK that works in a very small space to see how he does things differently.


Comparing that to the bag method for carbon builds also shows how much slower it is than working with metal.

[54ny77]

nic that other post doesn't even deserve a response.

your bikes speak for themselves.

someday i hope to be added to that list!

:hello:

...snip...

[oldpotatoe]

nic that other post doesn't even deserve a response.

your bikes speak for themselves.

someday i hope to be added to that list!

:hello:

Just my casual observation but Ricerocket's response seemed generic, not specifically critisizing anybody. Nothing I saw seemed to be directed at Nick but YMMV I guess.

[rice rocket]

rocket, i had typed out a very long technical response... but then decided my **** is out there to speak for itself and you don't deserve the response. why? we only know of your composites experience by what you claim here anonymously. while you may have some experience, you probably work with a team on something having little to do with what i do. you could describe that here and i would still lack the importance info in what you do as you lack on what i do.

i am a framebuilder who figured out how to make carbon tubes stick together in a fashion that exceeds the requirement. where have i fallen short? there are details you are not aware of and test data proving what i do.

Well thanks for considering it. ;)

You're correct, my experience is not in bike building, but in motorsports and a gravity racing series. Either way, being a biking enthusiast, I'd be interested in hearing why you chose your specific construction methodology, and how you'd compare it to others.

[nicrump]

Well thanks for considering it. ;)

You're correct, my experience is not in bike building, but in motorsports and a gravity racing series. Either way, being a biking enthusiast, I'd be interested in hearing why you chose your specific construction methodology, and how you'd compare it to others.

you already answered your own question as to why and that answer is the primary comparison point to the "others"

nutshell, i cant provide what i want to in a 4, 5 or even 7 size marketing chart.

i am astounded by your resume and level of experience. i didn't realize who i was talking to. thanks for sharing that with us.

*edit* that was harsh but give up something to work with here

[etu]

having had privilege to own a Carl Strong bike, his foray into the carbon material is completely consistent with who he is as a framebuilder.
he is someone who loves to "tinker" and eclectic interests in materials as long as it builds a good frame. he's built with steel, aluminum, and ti.
although he distinguishes himself as a professional and handles the business aspect as well as anyone, i think it is unfair to insinuate economics as being a major driving motive for his new interest. the guy is fastidious about details and quality. also there also seems to be an unnecessary introduction of element of metal vs carbon debate. :no:

what does a carbon custom bring to the table? i bought a pro carbon Landshark couple of years ago. this was my conversion, "Hey John, I want a carbon bike that is lively and more flexible than the stuff out there. I have had an R3 and a System 6 to experience in the ultimate stiffness, but I found out it's really not for me. I like the feel of steel, so perhaps you make something that kind of brings the best of both worlds for me?"
2 months later, i built up a 17lb bike that rides with the high freq damping quality of carbon, but definitely has the liveliness more like steel. it's a pretty nice bike, although not quite as nice as my Ti Strong. :D

[Charles M]

A couple of observations...


Even with all of the suggestion that molded bikes "can" be exceptionally lighter and better than "old" tech, we've still not seen a molded bike manufacturer surpass the Parlee / Crumpton in weight, strength and ride quality...

The molded guys are getting better... Trek and Look are pumping things up better than most.

BMC make a hell of a bike with their SLR01, but what do they do to up their game and create a new flagship? Tubes and luggs. Fancy for sure, but tubes and lugs for the impec.

And molded bikes are only now getting competitive with weight points that the "old" custom tech has produced for the last 5+ years...


Something else to consider would be durability... Volume certainly has something to do with it, but I've never seen a single fram failure from Crumpton or Parlee...

Part of that is likely down to the fact that the joints on their bikes are stronger than the tube sets, and the tube sets are more sturdy in general than the much thinner tubes on a lot of the mass marketed things, yet the build process is refined enough that the Parlee and Crumpton and even the "Heavier" Serotta all built up among the lightest project bikes ever, while being among the stiffest and smoothest riding bikes on test.




As for the though that carbon is everywhere,

I think it's something that should be taken in context for this forum and the builders discussed.

While carbon is certainly more popular overall, I dont think it a stretch to say than any of us here could name 3-4-5 custom metal builders for every custom carbon builder.



As that relates to Carl, here's a guy who's listened to his customers and looked at the quality of the product by others and decided to expand his skill set...


My two cents is that anyone that see's a negative without sampling the product have their own insecurity issues to deal with before passing judgment on a guy who makes fantastic bikes in a few materials...

[jghall]

Wish Carl well with his new line. Also wish I could afford one.

Dear Santa,
I'd like.............

[cadence90]

<snip>

My two cents is that anyone that see's a negative without sampling the product have their own insecurity issues to deal with before passing judgment on a guy who makes fantastic bikes in a few materials...
I have no idea about "insecurity" but it certainly does reflect a biased and impossible rush to judgement, at the very least.

The architect Robert Venturi severely criticized a building in a seminal book he wrote, without having actually visted the building.

In the second edition, after having visited the building, he wrote a lengthy and equally seminal retraction in the preface, and vowed to never again discuss a building without actually having experienced it.

[David Kirk]

The architect Robert Venturi severely criticized a building in a seminal book he wrote, without having actually visted the building.

In the second edition, after having visited the building, he wrote a lengthy and equally seminal retraction in the preface, and vowed to never again discuss a building without actually having experienced it.

Amen - this should be carved in stone.

Dave

[Lifelover]

.....
In the second edition, after having visited the building, he wrote a lengthy and equally seminal retraction in the preface, and vowed to never again discuss a building without actually having experienced it.

Based on this we should have nothing good or bad to say about it without experiencing it first hand. That maybe prudent but it would make discussion boards like this very quiet.

While I may have a differing opinion than Rice Burner, I did not find his comments to be out of line or offensive. I appreciate people that will discuss stuff openly (including doubts or question) even if they know there is a chance that the person being discussed may very well read it. Truthfully, if Carl, Nick or even Dave K couldn't sustain a little open criticism/questioning they would not still be in business. While the "brand" alone may sustain a very few, ultimately it is their product that will carry them.

[cadence90]

Based on this we should have nothing good or bad to say about it without experiencing it first hand. That maybe prudent but it would make discussion boards like this very quiet.

While I may have a differing opinion than Rice Burner, I did not find his comments to be out of line or offensive. I appreciate people that will discuss stuff openly (including doubts or question) even if they know there is a chance that the person being discussed may very well read it. Truthfully, if Carl, Nick or even Dave K couldn't sustain a little open criticism/questioning they would not still be in business. While the "brand" alone may sustain a very few, it is ultimately it is their product that will carry them.
You are correct; I should have been more precise and used the word "criticize" again rather than "discuss", since in the context of my previous post Venturi heavily criticized a church by Michelucci, then only later visited it and found that his experience of the actual building completely belied the impression he had formed of it only from photographs.

I believe that that is very true. I have felt the real presence of space (a truly beautiful sensation) in very few buildings (the porticos of the Kimbell Art Museum; the Pantheon; the mortuary chapel at San José de Tumacácori; surprisingly, unexpected to me, the large courtyard at the Salk Institute; Ronchamp...). I would have thought, from a distance, that I also would feel it at the Guggenheim New York, for example, but I never have. It is all about proportion, materials, mass, light...all impossible to gauge from afar.

However, I do not agree that boards like this would be very quiet. Not at all. They would simply contain less speculation and more accuracy. So, while I also did not at all find rice rocket's (not riceburner) comments at all "out of line or offensive", and nor do I feel that any experienced builder would be even remotely "stung" by his comments, I just feel that it is not so constructive to comment (positively or negatively) on any product, etc. without first-hand experience. If someone here requests a comparison between a Parlee Z3 and a Colnago C59, or between a Kirk Terraplane and a Zanc Max, for instance, how can I possibly offer any substantive comment, having never ridden any of those specific frames? rr's comment is essentially pure supposition, and Nic's reply already addressed that.


" * I have visited Giovanni Michelucci's Church of the Autostrada [del Sole] since writing these words, and I now realize it is an extremely beautiful and effective building. I am therefore sorry I made this unsympathetic comparison."
- R. Venturi, Complexity and Contradiction in Architecture, 2nd Ed.
Venturi later expounded on the critical importance, necessity, of actual, first-hand experience in interviews, lectures, etc.
.
.

[Ahneida Ride]

I've always heard great comments about Carl's work.

Always !!!!! :D :banana:

[Charles M]

deleted.

[rugbysecondrow]

Based on this we should have nothing good or bad to say about it without experiencing it first hand. That maybe prudent but it would make discussion boards like this very quiet.

While I may have a differing opinion than Rice Burner, I did not find his comments to be out of line or offensive. I appreciate people that will discuss stuff openly (including doubts or question) even if they know there is a chance that the person being discussed may very well read it. Truthfully, if Carl, Nick or even Dave K couldn't sustain a little open criticism/questioning they would not still be in business. While the "brand" alone may sustain a very few, ultimately it is their product that will carry them.
I agree. There was nothing offensive, but it seems there is a pedestal that props up several builders who are above discussion, just the normal echos...I thought that is what across the hall was for. I am not sure why it was important to blast Rice Rocket (pretty rude IMO) when it seems he took a very professional aproqch to the discussion, something that was not reciprocated.

[54ny77]

There so many brilliant armchair bike builders here it's awesome! :banana:

Now if you'll excuse me i'm going to go boil water for pasta. Mario batali does this too so he doesn't really impress me. ;)

[Smiley]

There so many brilliant armchair bike builders here it's awesome! :banana:

Now if you'll excuse me i'm going to go boil water for pasta. Mario batali does this too so he doesn't really impress me. ;)


now that's funny :banana:

[rice rocket]

There so many brilliant armchair bike builders here it's awesome! :banana:

Now if you'll excuse me i'm going to go boil water for pasta. Mario batali does this too so he doesn't really impress me. ;)
That I am, but c'mon, this isn't rocket science. Engineering 101, don't place your weakest material at the points of highest stress.

Anyways, no disrespect, it's been made to work as it seems this is the preferred method of custom carbon bikes. There's plenty of optimization for strength:weight if that's your endgame.

[nicrump]

so many twisted accounts of what was really said in this one thread.

mods please delete my account before i do something i regret.

eff me running.

[nicrump]

That I am, but c'mon, this isn't rocket science. Engineering 101, don't place your weakest material at the points of highest stress.

Anyways, no disrespect, it's been made to work as it seems this is the preferred method of custom carbon bikes. There's plenty of optimization for strength:weight if that's your endgame.

so please explain where we are putting the "weakest material at the points of highest stress."

btw, real engineering is test result driven. you are going off on theory about something you have now proven here that you know very little about. i'm trying NOT to make personal attacks but you attack my livelihood in indelible i-ink here. excuse me for feeling compelled to remark when i see that kinda ****.

you guys can continue this debate without me.

[Ahneida Ride]

btw, real engineering is test result driven.


Amen to that. Theory only goes so far. ;)

[93legendti]

I have never heard/read a bad word from an owner of a Crumpton or a Strong.


So, about the ride...
I've got 14 hours on the bike now and I can honestly say its the best bike I've ever ridden , hands down.

I wondered how long it would take to notice the custom fit and that was answered by the end of my street ( about three blocks!) I just couldn't stop smiling and shaking my head thinking, nooo wayyyy ( in the BEST of no ways).
Perfect!!

The fit felt great right away and after a few small adjustments it's now spot on.
It's definintly an extremely smooth ride( not plush but lightly muted ) and the bike seems to float over chip and seal with gracious ease.

However, when you give her full gas, that's when things really come to life.
I'm coming from a Pegoretti 830am which , in IMHO , is one of the stiffer bikes out there and the Crumpton gives NOTHING in the way of BB or torsional movement. I begged Nick to make this as strong as possible, on par with a 'Nago Extreme Power and to not worry about the frame weight .
He has bested my wildest ambitions.
However the Peg-o would beat you , especially over the rough stuff. If you ran over a nickel you could tell if it was heads up or down, on the Crumpton , you know you ran over something, but that's about it... Think gliding and floating but still in touch with the road . Again, perfect.


This is my first experience with owning a BB30 bike and short of not having a crank that reads Campagnolo, I'm thrilled. Nick pre-pressed the bearings in for me and I simply tapped the spindle through, put a few spacers and a wavy washer, torqued the arms to spec and that was that. The crank seems as stiff as the Record UT I've been using but I think its splitting hairs at this point about crank flexion.
But....
When you jump ,the bike feels as if its going to run out from underneath you , what a lovely sensation !

There is zero BB deflection under full load and hammering through turns she tracks straight and true without the slightest twitch or shake. Hands off is no problem and I have yet to hear a creak or moan under any circumstances.

Obviously the finish is on par with the best and everyone that has seen her in person is blown away. Nick did the paint himself in-house.
The tubeset is an oversized carbon and I think new to Nick if i remember correctly. T
The down tube is a whopping 48mm in diameter and the top tube is a not much smaller 40mm. It uses a 31.6 seatpost and a clamp on front derailleur hanger.

For those of you who have asked my personal set up measurements, they are:
Center of BB to top o' saddle is 815mm. Tip of saddle to handlebar center is 640mm. Deda 46mm bars and 175mm Crank length.
I'm just shy of 6'3 ( 1.91 m) and weigh 170lbs ( 77k) . If you want more personal info PM me and Ill send you my power files. :)

Let me know if you have other questions about this lovely machine . I'll be glad to bend your ear some more about her, she's simply THAT GOOD.
I heart Nick Crumpton.

ride on
david lee

[Lifelover]

That I am, but c'mon, this isn't rocket science. Engineering 101, don't place your weakest material at the points of highest stress.

Anyways, no disrespect, it's been made to work as it seems this is the preferred method of custom carbon bikes. There's plenty of optimization for strength:weight if that's your endgame.

Engineering 401, don't over build it simply because you can. Engineers have a hard time with the concept of "good enough". If the common method of bonding CF tubes makes for a joint that is stronger than the base material, there is no reason to make it stronger.

[Charles M]

I agree. There was nothing offensive, but it seems there is a pedestal that props up several builders who are above discussion, just the normal echos...I thought that is what across the hall was for. I am not sure why it was important to blast Rice Rocket (pretty rude IMO) when it seems he took a very professional aproqch to the discussion, something that was not reciprocated.




When Rice Rocket says that the build quality and refinement from guys with the experience of a Crumpton or Carl Strong are no better than something that I could whip up in my garage...



That's pretty that's either pretty damn insulting to buiilders who've been refining their game...



And Rice keeps bringing up mitered tubes...

I've heard the same bull**** comments from a number of molded bike makers who suggest that the tech is far superior but them produce bikes that flex more and weight more but ride less smooth.

Molding tech CAN be fantastic, but the bikes from Nick and Parlee and Serotta, along with Look, Derosa [tube to tube on their top line] Colnago's C series, Time and others all two things in common... They're what Rice Rocket is suggesting is bad, and they're all among the best bikes available...




The fun part is that the tubes will fail before the joints will on both Carl and Nick's bikes.



It might also help to know that recalls on a couple of well known bikes that were made with Rice Rocket's suggested superior build method failed in exactly the area he's saying was better...

And Nicks had how many failures at the joints?

I've heard of exactly zero.






Sure there are a few things to back track on... But I dont blame a builder or builders for being insulted when someone comes in and says they could do the same thing with Zero Experience...


I've replaced water heaters and I've welded and brazed on bikes.

But I would think it incredibly insulting if I were to come in here and say I could nock out something on par with Kelly Bedford or Sachs in my garage, or that it's easy because I've done something like it.

The combination of Laughter and insults I would get would be way beyond what's posted here...

[eddief]

matte/satin finish, but the orietation of the carbon patterning was quite subtle and striking at the same time. certain patches caught the light and others reflected it...as if the builder knew it would do that right from the getgo :). i have no damn clue how it rode, but it was obviously a work of fine craftsmanship and approached being rideable art...in my opinion.

[rugbysecondrow]

Why so sensitive? Are we at the point now where a critique is deemed as an insult that professionals cannot handle? Cmon, let's be real here. If this was anybody else in their profession, would we be so sensitive? In any event, what is to say rice has no experience? There was a great welding discussion that took place a few weeks back with Dave Kirk and a forum member. Is seems that conversation developed well without all the offense and afronts taken.

Maybe I am off base, but having read some of the other posts here, there is a hyper-sensitivity for some reason.



And his full quote (not out of context) is here, I think he elaborates more and his intent is different than what you representperhaps
"Perhaps I'm somewhat jaded having worked with composites for the last 10 years, and something that I could whip up in my garage doesn't entirely impress me? That said, composites have so many variables that just seeing the process doesn't mean you can create it (which I'm sure is why Nick doesn't feel like he's giving away that much showing his processes). Just jumping into carbon bikes because you've made metal bikes in the past doesn't instill much confidence."

When Rice Rocket says that the build quality and refinement from guys with the experience of a Crumpton or Carl Strong are no better than



That's pretty that's pretty damn insulting.




And Rice keeps bringing up mitered tubes...

I've heard the same bull**** comments from a number of molded bike makers who suggest that the tech is far superior but them produce bikes that flex more and weight more but ride less smooth.

Molding tech CAN be fantastic, but the bikes from Nick and Parlee and Serotta, along with Look, Derosa [tube to tube on their top line] Colnago's C series, Time and others all two things in common... They're what Rice Rocket is suggesting is bad, and they're all among the best bikes available...




The fun part is that the tubes will fail before the joints will on both Carl and Nick's bikes.



It might also help to know that recalls on a couple of well known bikes that were made with Rice Rocket's suggested superior build method failed in exactly the area he's saying was better...

And Nicks had how many failures at the joints?

I've heard of exactly zero.






Sure there are a few things to back track on... But I dont blame a builder or builders for being insulted when someone comes in and says they could do the same thing with Zero Experience...


I've replaced water heaters and I've welded and brazed on bikes.

But I would think it incredibly insulting if I were to come in here and say I could nock out something on par with Kelly Bedford or Sachs in my garage, or that it's easy because I've done something like it.

The combination of Laughter and insults I would get would be way beyond what's posted here...

[93legendti]

I'm not a carbon guy, but Nic's bikes make me want a carbon bike:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=631416&postcount=1
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=660486&postcount=1
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=34826&highlight=crumpton

[soulspinner]

Carl is a master at tuning to your body proportions, weight style etc. Carbon just expands the possibilties. Having had numerous steel bikes, the Strong is perfect in fit and handling. If I could afford one, Id get a carbon from him in a heartbeat, but bike shop guys ride what they got (and customer bikes) and lust after the rest. :(

[eddief]

yes, those pictures are worth thousands of my words.

[Smiley]

I think Nic has his body of work to fall back on as far as being a proven techo whiz with pastique, my guess is he makes a superior quality frame and no doubt that Carl will build the same. I am guessing that some of Carl's first frames built will exceed expectations as Carl will put many more hours in getting the details beyond correct.

Pez Tech is da Man when it comes to debating carbone and I think he really makes great arguments for Nic's good builds. He is a guy I would trust when it comes to Plastique opinions for sure.

[54ny77]

Please close this thread. It has the makings of uselessly going nowhere, fast. About a different bike. On a SEROTTA forum. :argue:

[93legendti]

Some more of Carl's great work:

http://strongframes.com/blog/wp-content/gallery/michael-t-roadtitanium/bc_3.jpg
http://strongframes.com/blog/wp-content/gallery/eric-w-chinaroadtitanium/fj1.jpg

[Bob Ross]

Now if you'll excuse me i'm going to go boil water for pasta. Mario batali does this too so he doesn't really impress me. ;)


Funny you mention Mario, as his was the first name that came to mind when this thread started to go south. Obsessing over materials is like obsessing over ingrediants: Mario Batalli makes excellent chicken and he makes excellent fish; if you handed him a chunk of mystery meat he'd no doubt make an excellent meal out of that as well.

Carl Strong isn't a "steel-worker", he's a framebuilder. If he guest-starred on "Carbon Chef America" I feel certain he could rock the secret ingrediant and make a delicious bike that would have the judges swooning. That's what he does.

[rnhood]

Very nice pictures, both Crumpton and Strong. I'm sure Carl Strong will do just fine building with carbon, as its a well established frame building material now and Carl's knowledge of frame design needs no introduction to depth or quality. I applaud him for not limiting himself. Like Serotta, IF, Seven,etc., he has chosen to expand on the theme of carbon - arguably a better bike building medium. Maybe much better. I like my carbon bike better than any steel bike I've owned or ridden (though that doesn't mean I don't like metal because I do).

[jlwdm]

.. There was nothing offensive, but it seems there is a pedestal that props up several builders who are above discussion, just the normal echos...I thought that is what across the hall was for...

Across the hall they don't need to prop up builders. The forum is packed with many of the best frame builders around. Fortunately a few of them post once in a while here also.

Surprising that you would talk about propping up builders as you are round 2 of trying to promote a certain builder - not that he isn't a great builder. After round 1 got a little carried away most of the individuals backed off.

Jeff

[rugbysecondrow]

Across the hall they don't need to prop up builders. The forum is packed with many of the best frame builders around. Fortunately a few of them post once in a while here also.

Surprising that you would talk about propping up builders as you are round 2 of trying to promote a certain builder - not that he isn't a great builder. After round 1 got a little carried away most of the individuals backed off.

Jeff
What am I promoting? I don't think I have promoted anything here, have I.

As for across the hall... That will be left alone.

[dekindy]

First of all, it is a complete mystery to me how a custom builder does his craft of designing the bike and "nailing the fit and ride" for a specific individual, especially when the evaluation is so subjective. I do however believe that is is being done consistently because of the following and price that the products of custom builders command.

However, you are telling me that someone that has knowledge of this process in metal and is a one-man shop can have this ability right out of the box to both design and build a totally foreign material, in this case carbon, and achieve the same high level results.

So forgetting the actual nuts of bolts of building the frame, how does a builder get the comparable expertise of designing and building with a totally foreign material right out of the box? There certainly are not hundreds of frames of experience with this material.

I do think that Carl Strong is a professional and can build a comparable bike in carbon or he would not be doing it. I just cannot conceive the knowledge, skill, and talent that is behind it and allowed him to jump in and hit the ground running. I was equally fascinated with an uncle that seemed to be able to do auto mechanics, auto body work, electricians, plumbing, woodworking, and just about any type of work he felt like doing yet required no formal training to do it.

[Peter B]

<snip>

However, you are telling me that someone that has knowledge of this process in metal and is a one-man shop can have this ability right out of the box to both design and build a totally foreign material, in this case carbon, and achieve the same high level results.



Carl spent two years researching CF and fabrication techniques with Nick Crumpton and Jared Nelson before bringing these to market. He already has the knowledge of frame design and fit developed over the last 18 or so years. Not exactly 'right out of the box'.

http://strongframes.com/frames_&_pricing/carbon/

http://strongframes.com/frames_&_pricing/carbon/tour/

[rnhood]

With regards to materials, I think frame construction is fairly mature, and there is no rocket science there. Also, we don't know how long Carl has been developing his expertise with carbon behind the curtain - just like we don't know how long Serotta was developing carbon before they made it a public offering.

Also keep in mind that that the framebuilder collective is a close knit club type activity, or should I say "team" activity, and a lot of knowledge sharing likely goes on within it. Each member wants the other to succeed because it all goes to furthering the individual frame building craft.

[93legendti]

Or, to put it another way: In this economic climate, do you think a reputable builder would risk it all on something he hadn't properly researched and prepared to safely build for profit?

[dekindy]

Carl spent two years researching CF and fabrication techniques with Nick Crumpton and Jared Nelson before bringing these to market. He already has the knowledge of frame design and fit developed over the last 18 or so years. Not exactly 'right out of the box'.

http://strongframes.com/frames_&_pricing/carbon/

http://strongframes.com/frames_&_pricing/carbon/tour/

The emphasis is on the new type of material. I would take one of his steel or butted titanium frames anytime.

[Charles M]

Knowing a little of the background, I would take one of Carl's bikes (in any material) and not worry...



Carl spent two years researching CF and fabrication techniques with Nick Crumpton and Jared Nelson before bringing these to market. He already has the knowledge of frame design and fit developed over the last 18 or so years. Not exactly 'right out of the box'.

http://strongframes.com/frames_&_pricing/carbon/

http://strongframes.com/frames_&_pricing/carbon/tour/



Not even Nick had it right straight away... Neither did Parlee or Craig Calfee and Serotta built a frame or two or three before they had it right.


Hell, I'm not affraid to say that Nick's frames from a couple of years ago are not as refined as Nicks Frames today, and he was one of the top custom guys back then...



Nick's helped more than Carl get going... In fact, He's helped companies that have been producing carbon bikes for years.


Which all speaks to someone who doesnt work in cycling passing judgment on the production method as well as claiming it's so simple they could "whip it up in their Garage"...

[54ny77]

Bob if you have time take a drive and try his Tarry Lodge restaurant in Port Chester. It's awesome.

Funny you mention Mario, as his was the first name that came to mind when this thread started to go south. Obsessing over materials is like obsessing over ingrediants: Mario Batalli makes excellent chicken and he makes excellent fish; if you handed him a chunk of mystery meat he'd no doubt make an excellent meal out of that as well.

Carl Strong isn't a "steel-worker", he's a framebuilder. If he guest-starred on "Carbon Chef America" I feel certain he could rock the secret ingrediant and make a delicious bike that would have the judges swooning. That's what he does.

[rugbysecondrow]

So only someone working in cycling can comment or form / pass judgement on that industry or parts of that industry? Apply that to all industries and we have only industry people allowed to pass judgement on that industry? That seems like a short sighted perspective.

I don't know if I agree with Rice as I have no technical knowledge on the subject, but the club mentality shown looks pretty stupid from this consumers perspective. If a professional wants to interact with lay people and consumers, then I would think an improved approach might be in order. He should use it to promote and inform rather than belittle and scoff.

The shame is that one pseudo challenge forced the carbon police to come out in full effect and turn this into a crappy thread when there could have been actual discussion.

Fine job.

Knowing a little of the background, I would take one of Carl's bikes (in any material) and not worry...







Not even Nick had it right straight away... Neither did Parlee or Craig Calfee and Serotta built a frame or two or three before they had it right.


Hell, I'm not affraid to say that Nick's frames from a couple of years ago are not as refined as Nicks Frames today, and he was one of the top custom guys back then...



Nick's helped more than Carl get going... In fact, He's helped companies that have been producing carbon bikes for years.


Which all speaks to someone who doesnt work in cycling passing judgment on the production method as well as claiming it's so simple they could "whip it up in their Garage"...

[Charles M]

Yes lets play twist the words and ignore the subject matter...



So you're saying that I shouldnt comment just because I have relative background and an understanding of the manufacturing process and the builders being talked about?




I do get that there are folks around that would rather not have people with first hand knowledge of the thing being picked at... At what point catering to misinformation providers makes for a better thread or forum I'm not really sure.

[rugbysecondrow]

Yes lets play twist the words and ignore the subject matter...



So you're saying that I shouldnt comment just because I have relative background and an understanding of the manufacturing process and the builders being talked about

Sure you can, but it seems you enjoy shouting others down rather than having a discussion. I am not sure that is necessary.

Frankly, you nor Nick actually tried to fix misinformation, just said it was bull**** and that he was beneath responding to. I don't find that approach fruitful.

If you have knowledge and know this, then why not share ( if not for his edification) then ours.

[54ny77]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Flushing_toilet.jpg

[Charles M]

Rugby I'm posting why I think Rice Rocket's information is off base ralative to bicycles and insulting relative to the builders in question.

I think that's relative to the thread.



Your personal problem with me seems less a contribution to a thread you're implying that others are spoiling...

[mosca]

Is this what happened to Dylan when he went electric?

[moran]

To try to bring this back around.....I for one, think it's cool that Carl Strong is getting into carbon. If he learns from Nick, and his carbon bike turns out as good as his steel and ti bikes......then all of us cycling fans/racers/enthusiasts have one more custom bike option to consider.

Good for Carl.....good for us.

[Charles M]

Sure you can, but it seems you enjoy shouting others down rather than having a discussion. I am not sure that is necessary.

Frankly, you nor Nick actually tried to fix misinformation, just said it was bull**** and that he was beneath responding to. I don't find that approach fruitful.

If you have knowledge and know this, then why not share ( if not for his edification) then ours.


If you were at all thinking about the content instead of fixating on Nick and I, you would have read the thread through...

My first post and other posts have been about perspective...


A couple of observations...


Even with all of the suggestion that molded bikes "can" be exceptionally lighter and better than "old" tech, we've still not seen a molded bike manufacturer surpass the Parlee / Crumpton in weight, strength and ride quality...

The molded guys are getting better... Trek and Look are pumping things up better than most.

BMC make a hell of a bike with their SLR01, but what do they do to up their game and create a new flagship? Tubes and luggs. Fancy for sure, but tubes and lugs for the impec.

And molded bikes are only now getting competitive with weight points that the "old" custom tech has produced for the last 5+ years...


Something else to consider would be durability... Volume certainly has something to do with it, but I've never seen a single fram failure from Crumpton or Parlee...

Part of that is likely down to the fact that the joints on their bikes are stronger than the tube sets, and the tube sets are more sturdy in general than the much thinner tubes on a lot of the mass marketed things, yet the build process is refined enough that the Parlee and Crumpton and even the "Heavier" Serotta all built up among the lightest project bikes ever, while being among the stiffest and smoothest riding bikes on test.




As for the though that carbon is everywhere,

I think it's something that should be taken in context for this forum and the builders discussed.

While carbon is certainly more popular overall, I dont think it a stretch to say than any of us here could name 3-4-5 custom metal builders for every custom carbon builder.



As that relates to Carl, here's a guy who's listened to his customers and looked at the quality of the product by others and decided to expand his skill set...


My two cents is that anyone that see's a negative without sampling the product have their own insecurity issues to deal with before passing judgment on a guy who makes fantastic bikes in a few materials...


To be perfectly frank,

Rice Rocket has been a much better forum member throughout this thread despite the fact that I dont agree with him... At least he's managed to comment on the thread subjectively versus simply using it to perpetuate an arguement based in personal issues...


Would you care at all to talk about any of the points at hand?


Anything about Carl's pretty nice first go?


http://www.strongframes.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/Carbon-Road11-616x700.jpg


Is there any hope at all that you want to contribute to the subject matter here?