How to remove seized quill stem ?

[maxdog]

I have an old Vitus 979 that I'm finally getting around to stripping down. It has a nice black Cinelli stem I would like to throw on my 3rensho rebuild. Unfortunately the stem is seized in the steerer tube. I completely removed the quill bolt and top of the headset and sprayed WD-40 in there. I then tried hammering and twisting to loosen, with no luck. Any ideas? Thanks.

[weisan]

Strip it down to bare frame, invert it over, clamp the stem to a vice, use the frame as the lever to turn it loose.

[oldpotatoe]

Strip it down to bare frame, invert it over, clamp the stem to a vice, use the frame as the lever to turn it loose.

And if THAT doesn't work..cut the top part of the stem off, leaving the quill. Remove fork and find somebody with a drill press that can drill out the remnants of the stem..and grease once or twice per year...

[David Kirk]

Did you, before removing the wedge bolt, screw it out a few turns and then give it a good solid whack down with a hammer to break the wedge loose? If not then you might want to go back and try that.

A lot of folks don't know that is how it worked.

Dave

[bigman]

Use PB blaster and let it soak for a while , much better than WD40. Spray from underside of fork. Some people say to heat the steerer, first remove the headset as best you can, then heat with a hair dryer, never tried that but am told that can help- different coefficients of expansion.

Good luck.

[jischr]

If you have other quills, check to see if you can thread them from the bottom. IF you can on most of them then get a bolt of the appropriate length, drill a block for it to pull against, thread the bolt into the quill from the bottom and pull it until its free.

[maxdog]

Strip it down to bare frame, invert it over, clamp the stem to a vice, use the frame as the lever to turn it loose.

I'm not sure how this would work, since the stem is stuck in the steerer tube (fork), not the frame.

[maxdog]

And if THAT doesn't work..cut the top part of the stem off, leaving the quill. Remove fork and find somebody with a drill press that can drill out the remnants of the stem..and grease once or twice per year...

This sounds like it would work, but to tell you the truth, it's the stem I'm trying to salvage, not so much the frame. I would like to try to save the frame as well though.

[maxdog]

Did you, before removing the wedge bolt, screw it out a few turns and then give it a good solid whack down with a hammer to break the wedge loose? If not then you might want to go back and try that.

A lot of folks don't know that is how it worked.

Dave

I did try that, but was afraid to damage the threading, so maybe not enough force. I'll go back and give it a harder whack. If that doesn't work I'll try Bigman's method.

[David Kirk]

I did try that, but was afraid to damage the threading, so maybe not enough force. I'll go back and give it a harder whack. If that doesn't work I'll try Bigman's method.

You won't damage the bolt threads regardless of how hard you whack the loosened bolt. Don't worry about that.

the best way to do it is to loosen it a few turns and then place a block of wood on top of the bolt head and then give the wood a good solid whack with some follow through.

The only reason to NOT do this is if the frame size is small and the stem is very low in the steerer. If the steerer is short you can end up trying to force the wedge into the butted area and this is unproductive at best. Bit you would usually only find this on bikes below 50 cm.

So whack it hard and then relax.

dave

[Ken Robb]

You won't damage the bolt threads regardless of how hard you whack the loosened bolt. Don't worry about that.

the best way to do it is to loosen it a few turns and then place a block of wood on top of the bolt head and then give the wood a good solid whack with some follow through.

So whack it hard and then relax.

dave

A dead-blow hammer would be a good tool to use. :beer:

[David Kirk]

A dead-blow hammer would be a good tool to use. :beer:

I had to do a field repair once on a headset and needed to pull the stem to do it and found a sweet rock to use as a hammer and then a station wagon to use as a headset press.

But a hammer would have been better.

dave

[giverdada]

same thing happened in my old cannondale. got hit by a car and tried to right the bars, but realized that it was the stem that had bent instead of turned. knocked down the wedge by dave kirk's method. no go. soaked the thing in wd-40. no go. even tried a bottle of coke (some messenger suggested it). no go. even the shop charged me $20 for 'the effort'. i don't pay anyone for effort other than my students; when it involves money, it's results or no pay. anyway, my dad eventually got a brilliant idea - we hooked up a piece of climbing webbing through the front triangle and around the fork crown and tied it to a tree. then we hooked up the come along cable winch and attached that to an opposite tree. then we cranked.

sucker held for a bit then came out with a screech and a pop. undamaged stem (it was already bent from the crash). intact frameset. give'r. :banana:

[maxdog]

You won't damage the bolt threads regardless of how hard you whack the loosened bolt. Don't worry about that.

the best way to do it is to loosen it a few turns and then place a block of wood on top of the bolt head and then give the wood a good solid whack with some follow through.

The only reason to NOT do this is if the frame size is small and the stem is very low in the steerer. If the steerer is short you can end up trying to force the wedge into the butted area and this is unproductive at best. Bit you would usually only find this on bikes below 50 cm.

So whack it hard and then relax.

dave


I went back and tried to screw the bolt back into the wedge and it just dropped all the way into the stem and bottomed out. I assume this means that the wedge dropped down in the head tube, and the real problem is the stem itself is seized in the steerer from corrosion. Does that sound right?

I then flipped the frame over to look in from the crotch of the fork and found that there is only a tiny (approx 3-4mm) hole there.

Any more ideas?

Btw thanks to everyone so far.

[Louis]

If you're willing to sacrifice the stem you can just cut if off then remove the fork from the HT. At that point the frame is out of the picture and you can decide how to proceed next. The one problem with that approach is that it is now more difficult to apply torque to the remaining portion of the stem, but you can always us a pipe wrench.

Once you have just the fork in hand you can (carefully) drill out out remaining part of the quill. That's easier said than done, since you will need a pretty large drill bit. You will have the hole down the center of the quill to guide the drill, so that makes that part of the operation a bit easier.

Caveat: I've never done this myself. Rapping the bolt then applying moderate force to the stem has always worked for me.

[zmudshark]

Dave Kirk is correct, of course. Once the wedge, or conical fixing bolt is loose, and the stem still doesn't move, you can try a couple of things. Industrial strength ammonia(not household) for a few days soaked in there, to break the bond between the alloy and steel. Be patient. You may have to rig something up to keep the ammonia in there. Another method, which I haven't tried, but have heard works, is to hit the stem with a product to freeze it. I don't recall the name, but auto parts stores sell it. The idea is the stem, being aluminum alloy, shrinks faster than the frame.

One more thing, which worked for me when all else failed, was to take a copper pipe, insert it through the bottom, and pound the bejeebus out of it. This, of course, after the fixing bolt is out, which 'should' drop through the fork once the brake is removed.

The copper pipe should be small enough as to not expand the stem and fix it tighter. In my case, the pipe deformed into a cone, and the pounding end collapsed, but not until the stem was free.

Good luck!

[maxdog]

Dave Kirk is correct, of course. Once the wedge, or conical fixing bolt is loose, and the stem still doesn't move, you can try a couple of things. Industrial strength ammonia(not household) for a few days soaked in there, to break the bond between the alloy and steel. Be patient. You may have to rig something up to keep the ammonia in there. Another method, which I haven't tried, but have heard works, is to hit the stem with a product to freeze it. I don't recall the name, but auto parts stores sell it. The idea is the stem, being aluminum alloy, shrinks faster than the frame.

One more thing, which worked for me when all else failed, was to take a copper pipe, insert it through the bottom, and pound the bejeebus out of it. This, of course, after the fixing bolt is out, which 'should' drop through the fork once the brake is removed.

The copper pipe should be small enough as to not expand the stem and fix it tighter. In my case, the pipe deformed into a cone, and the pounding end collapsed, but not until the stem was free.

Good luck!

Thanks. Sounds like a good idea, except the Vitus fork is not open on the underside. there is only a small 3 or 4mm hole.

[vqdriver]

i've not done this but perhaps you could clamp the stem to a vise or something and then clamp the fork to a mount like below which is bolted to a long 2x4 and use that as a lever to twist it loose.

kinda goes counter to you salvaging the stem tho (or fork for that matter)

edit: i'd make sure the wedge has indeed fallen out first. maybe pick up the whole frameset and shake it around and listen for it in there.

http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/public/sYg3XrEjUZ6urgSVfFmirH5KgyMAbfSWUFoGfS9vvj02anlscu Y3t9RNqImiU84_CPM3u2BOOxmfxmY-tiwIgZt8XA7GsL9-VRqBpIwcMPH67bmGAaGXsuraWrZJfJ6OJ5fGpKxhAi-A2BMrcfKHOZytB4mLZddnvTbJ2wcEO15V7rNCTpsqBN5S1pAUa 5gN5uBXqQif9GwVqED_qJO7sv9VMimEUuqQyIUijKz7MgNFfxJ u_YTwTvzkfsca2xeNdIR9FRXtdKNSIwmEaTW29VGdnzkRPs29W RBdcOc

[thwart]

and then a station wagon to use as a headset press. I really love the mental picture that conjures up...

[RPS]

Dave Kirk is correct, of course. Once the wedge, or conical fixing bolt is loose, and the stem still doesn't move, you can try a couple of things. Industrial strength ammonia(not household) for a few days soaked in there, to break the bond between the alloy and steel. Be patient. You may have to rig something up to keep the ammonia in there.
If there is paint involved and you want to save the frame and fork as is, I suggest you first check to see what strong ammonia will do to the finish.

[RPS]

P.S. -- If you have to use excessive torque to remove the stem in one piece, do you really want to reuse it? I wouldn't -- but that's just me.

[zmudshark]

If there is paint involved and you want to save the frame and fork as is, I suggest you first check to see what strong ammonia will do to the finish.
10% Ammonia will discolor paint (not ruin, IME). I have yet to have it hurt the metal, even after a 2 week soak. Some have said Kroil will work, usual penetrating fluids (PBBlaster) will not.

If the head tube of the 979 is Alu, all bets off. Ignore everything I've said.

[Wilkinson4]

penetrating oil. Kroil or something like that and soak it, repeat and whack.

mIKE

[oliver1850]

I've heard good things about Kroil too. Supposed to be the best penetrating oil available. You might try packing the stem in ice for a while, then quickly heating the steer tube. You might be able to pour some hot water onto it. Just be careful, and aware of where it's going to splash out.

[fiamme red]

I've heard good things about Kroil too. Supposed to be the best penetrating oil available. You might try packing the stem in ice for a while, then quickly heating the steer tube. You might be able to pour some hot water onto it. Just be careful, and aware of where it's going to splash out.And be careful about breathing it in. It's strong enough to give you a bad headache if you breathe it in. At least, so I've heard; never used it myself.

Sheldon Brown's article about stuck seatposts suggests that ammonia may work:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/stuck-seatposts.html

Aluminum seatposts frequently become stuck by corrosion also, and penetrating oil is almost useless against aluminum oxide. Fortunately, aluminum oxide can be dissolved like magic by using ammonia.

"Free at last! Free at last! Thank God almighty, I am free at last!"

[Peter P.]

Alright; if the wedge dropped free of the stem, then invert the frame and insert the bolt again to see if you can catch the threads.

Shoot the stem at the steerer junction with an entire can of freeze spray. You need to shock the metal into shrinking FAST.

Coca Cola has worked for me. Once you've got the wedge captured by the bolt again, sock it down just enough to hopefully make a seal. Don't worry if it drips, but do this outside or in the garage. If you can't rethread the wedge, then just plug the top end of the stem with rags to prevent leaks.


Pour the Coke, PB Blaster, whatever, down through the underside of the fork crown. Fill the steerer up with fluid if you can. Use a rubber mallet or deadblow hammer to whack the stem for 5-10 minutes. Then let the frame soak overnight. Pour out the fluid the next day and try to wrench the stem free using a pair of handlebars as leverage. Use a front wheel in the fork, clamped by your thighs, to brace things. I broke a Campy Nuovo Record hub axle that way, but eventually freed the stem. The Coke method worked on a stuck seatpost, and it only took overnight.

[maxdog]

Just want to say I appreciate all the interesting methodology proposed here. I'm starting to wonder if this is really worth it.
On one hand the Vitus is old outdated technology that a lot of people disdain. For me it has sentimental value as it was, along with an early ('82) American hand built Trek, and a Cinelli Supercorsa, the core of my USCF racing experience. Those days are long gone, but not forgotten. On the other hand I'd love to salvage some of the old vintage parts, like the black Cinelli stem and aero Campy seat post, for my 3rensho rebuild.

At this point I'm wondering if I shouldn't forget the whole thing.

[zmudshark]

What length stem are you looking for? I think I have a couple black ones , XA's laying around.

[weisan]

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/stuck-stem.html

[maxdog]

What length stem are you looking for? I think I have a couple black ones , XA's laying around.

Thanks, PM'd you.

[Louis]

WWARD?

(What would Aron Ralston do?)

I'm just full of these pearls of wisdom tonight. ;)

[Louis]

Max, do you have an update for us on the stem saga? Inquiring minds want to know!

Louis

[maxdog]

Max, do you have an update for us on the stem saga? Inquiring minds want to know!

Louis

Sure, i never like to disappoint an inquiring mind, mind you.
After much effort, a lot of good/interesting forum advice and some research, it seems I'm pretty much screwed.
According to Jobst Brandt, as found on Sheldon's (gonna miss that guy) site, There is nothing that can be done to remove a seized stem intact.
I may still try the cooling method, since aluminum expands/contracts much more than steel. It's a long shot, but its one beautiful black Cinelli stem.

[RPS]

There is nothing that can be done to remove a seized stem intact.
Maybe save it, but correct on not "removing" it.

[maxdog]

Maybe save it, but correct on not "removing" it.

I am curious, elaborate please.

[RPS]

I am curious, elaborate please.
Statements like that are based on practically all people wanting to remove a seized stem while salvaging the fork intact so they can reuse it.

If you don’t care about the fork or frame and only want to salvage the stem you can cut the fork (may require cutting head tube also), and then peel the steerer away from stem being careful not to damage it. I’m pretty sure I can do it but it’s something that just doesn’t come up because most people want to save the fork, not the stem.

[maxdog]

Statements like that are based on practically all people wanting to remove a seized stem while salvaging the fork intact so they can reuse it.

If you don’t care about the fork or frame and only want to salvage the stem you can cut the fork (may require cutting head tube also), and then peel the steerer away from stem being careful not to damage it. I’m pretty sure I can do it but it’s something that just doesn’t come up because most people want to save the fork, not the stem.

Okay, of course. I just didn't understand your post, it was a little cryptic.
I thought about doing just that, but I couldn't bring my self to cut the steerer. This is an old Vitus 979 from my racing days back in the mid 80's. To many memories. Thanks.

[RPS]

I thought about doing just that, but I couldn't bring my self to cut the steerer.
That’s why it’s not done – a fork is worth a lot more than a stem. Besides, as I stated before, in my opinion you’d be foolish to reuse an old stem in any case but in particular after you’ve already tried to extract it by force. You have no way of knowing what damage you may have already initiated that may lead to a sudden failure while riding at speed. No stem is worth your safety IMO.

If you decide to remove the quill in pieces it can still be a very tough job. I did it on my old Cannondale once and the quill seemed like it had bonded to the steel steerer like it was one piece. It was a bitch to get it out without damaging the steerer. In the long run it was worth the effort but it was more work than I ever anticipated.

Good luck.

[veloduffer]

I did try that, but was afraid to damage the threading, so maybe not enough force. I'll go back and give it a harder whack. If that doesn't work I'll try Bigman's method.

I use a hammer and nail punch on the bolt, which loosens the wedge.

[maxdog]

That’s why it’s not done – a fork is worth a lot more than a stem. Besides, as I stated before, in my opinion you’d be foolish to reuse an old stem in any case but in particular after you’ve already tried to extract it by force. You have no way of knowing what damage you may have already initiated that may lead to a sudden failure while riding at speed. No stem is worth your safety IMO.

If you decide to remove the quill in pieces it can still be a very tough job. I did it on my old Cannondale once and the quill seemed like it had bonded to the steel steerer like it was one piece. It was a bitch to get it out without damaging the steerer. In the long run it was worth the effort but it was more work than I ever anticipated.

Good luck.

Actually it is the stem , not the quill/wedge, that is seized. Thanks.

[maxdog]

I use a hammer and nail punch on the bolt, which loosens the wedge.

Thanks, but if you read the thread, you'll find that,s one of the first things i tried. As it turns out, it is the stem which is seized, not the wedge.

[dogdriver]

I've had good luck using T9 to free seized parts.

Failing that, may I recommend your LBS and a 12 pack of fine microbrew?

[maxdog]

I've had good luck using T9 to free seized parts.

Failing that, may I recommend your LBS and a 12 pack of fine microbrew?

Thanks, I was going to try the temperature reduction method as a last resort, but I guess I could try this first. Are you referring to the lube or corrosion remover?
Now with regard to the micro-brew, I like to do home-brewing, have made some 'kick A' ales, will that do?

[dogdriver]

Thanks, I was going to try the temperature reduction method as a last resort, but I guess I could try this first. Are you referring to the lube or corrosion remover?
Now with regard to the micro-brew, I like to do home-brewing, have made some 'kick A' ales, will that do?


T9 chain lube. The same stuff you put on chains. Discovered it by mistake when I had a pair of pedals fused to a crankset on my winter bike. Worked like a champ, but you're dealing with much more bonding area...

I'll bet some guy at the LBS will be thrilled to have a try at your problem in exchange for a couple of your brews!

[David Kirk]

....................

I'll bet some guy at the LBS will be thrilled to have a try at your problem in exchange for a couple of your brews!

Don't be so sure! I worked as a shop guy for a very long time and did this more times that I care to remember it it was seldom worth the 6 pack. It can tak hours to get this done in some cases. I did have a guy give me a gift certificate for the local mexican restaurant that I loved and that was a happy day.

Dave

[dogdriver]

Don't be so sure! I worked as a shop guy for a very long time and did this more times that I care to remember it it was seldom worth the 6 pack. It can tak hours to get this done in some cases. I did have a guy give me a gift certificate for the local mexican restaurant that I loved and that was a happy day.

Dave


Good point. Local economic custom always prevails.