Would someone like to be my Serotta dealer?

[Needs Help]

Hi,

I don't want anything to do with my local Serotta dealer, and therefore I am having trouble figuring out the best way to purchase a Serotta, so I thought I'd throw this out to the dealers on the board: I want to purchase a Serotta to be delivered by April 1. I have my fit measurements already. I want to pay the Excel online prices for a components package and wheelset, and I'll pay shipping from your location to mine for the final delivery.

If interested email me at s-e-r-r-o-t-a-h-e-l-p(AT)yahoo.com to discuss, or to tell me why this endeavor is not going to work. (remove the dashes and replace (AT) with @ in my email address)

Thanks.

[Climb01742]

have you thought about writing or calling serotta directly, explaining your situation and maybe they could recommend an alternative nearby dealer. clearly, they have an interest in creating a happy rider/dealer combo. i've always found them -- ben in particular -- very ready to help. good luck.

[Smiley]

This is NOT the way to win over any dealer that maybe lurking on-line. I for one think its really not a good idea to air your laundry about a dealer here, take it up with Mike or Steve and although You the customer are always right my guess here is there are 2 sides to every story. Where do you live anyway.

[M_A_Martin]

Now Smiley,
There ya go saying not to say bad things about dealers on the web because there's two sides to every story...

Then you ask him where he lives.

Its not like you can swing a cat and hit a serotta dealer, so isn't that just like naming names?

I do understand what Needs help is going through though. I have a dealer near me who I wouldn't have fit me. They've not done a good job previously and a class isn't going to work magic. The other Serotta dealer near me is wonderful. But if I were stuck with just the one that I don't like the fit from, I wouldn't buy a Serotta. (Other people have been very happy with their results from that shop...I just don't feel the need to go back and run that sort of experiment with my money when I have a fitter I trust elsewhere) Its not that I wouldn't do business with that shop, I do shop there from time to time, but I wouldn't have them fit me for a custom bike.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . as she usually does. Maybe NeedsHelp and Smiley could correspond offline and solve the problem.

BBDave

[Kevin]

Needs Help,

I have had similiar issues with a Serotta dealer near my home. I simply refuse to purchase anything of substance from him. Instead I go to a Serotta dealer that is 35 miles from my home. While this dealer is a little further away, he is great. In fact, I just purchased my second Serotta from him on Friday.

Have you tried the Serotta website to determine the location of the next nearest dealer? Depending on where you live it may be closer than you think.

Once you buy your Serotta you should do what I do with the dealer you don't like. Stop buy once in a while in your Serotta t-shirt to purchase a water bottle or a magnet for your cycling computer. It drives them crazy.

The first time I walked in wearing the t-shirt the dealer was actually dumb enough to ask me several questions in front of other customers. First he asked where I got the t-shirt. I told him that I got it when I bought my Ottrott. He then asked from what bike shop I had purchased the Ottrott. I then told him the name of the bicycle shop where I purchased the bike. He then asks what I paid for it and I tell him. Then he makes a huge mistake. In front of a store full of customers, who now believe that I know what I am talking about based upon what I am willing to spend on a bike, he asks why I did not purchase the bike from him. The bike shop became like the old EF Hutton commercial. So I told him the reasons in front of all his customers. This had not been my plan, but when he decided to play Perry Mason and put me on the hot seat I decided to answer his questions. Had he not asked the question why I chose another dealer I would not have told him. I have since learned from other riders that my feelings about the "hated bike shop" are pretty universal.

By the way, the water I drink out of the $3.99 water bottles that I purchase at the hated bike store does taste sweet.

Kevin

[theprep]

Kevin

I knew you lived on Long Island, now I know where you buy your Serotta's.

The 1st Ottrott, 2nd Ottrott, the CSI purchase on Friday.

My office is up the road from The Kreb and I hang out there entirely too much, particularly with the weather we have been having.

We are getting out today though. Chris says he is going. We are going to try to stay on some of the main roads out East.

11am Manorville King Kullen.

Hopefully everybody rides as slow as I feel.

[Kevin]

Prep,

The Kreb Cycle is a great shop. I am going to be there next Saturday at 9. Dropping off my Vortex to have some of the components (Record 2001) removed so that they can be installed on my CSI. They are also going to look at my "second" Ottrott because I am getting some numbness in my right hand. If you are there I'll buy you a cup of coffee.

I just looked at your MP and see that you are a consulting engineer. Are you the same person that Chris put me in touch with about 8 months ago to discuss Speed Dream wheels? If so, I probably have to buy you a bagel to go along with the coffee.

Kevin

[Ozz]

Needs Help,

I understand your motiviation to find a different shop than the one closest to you. I did the same thing when I got my CSI.

My local dealer ticked me off on repair a couple years ago and I have not forgotten it. I ended up driving to a shop 200 miles away to get fit and place my order. (FYI - the guys at the Lake Oswego Bike Gallery (Portland, OR) are great to work with.)

Finding a different shop to place your order should not be that hard. However, I doubt any dealer will place the order without at least putting you on the size-cycle to check the measurements you have. Just go the Serotta dealer list, find the next closest dealer to you and give them a call.

You might also talk about alternatives to ordering components from Excel and shipping them to the dealer. My shop wanted to order all the parts, just to make sure they were the right ones. They also gave me a price break on the whole package so the pricing would be competitive with mail-order pricing. Talk with them and see what they can do.

Good luck!

FWIW - The local shop I didn't want to buy my Serotta from does have a good group of people running on the sales floor - very knowledgeable, enthusiastic, and helpful. It is just their repair dept that needs improvement...you can't get anything done in less than 5 days.

[Climb01742]

hey, kevin,
so you just ordered a CSi. would you mind discussing your decision. why a CSi? what else did you consider? since i have the buy-a-bike-jonz far too often, i'm curious about other folks' buying thought process. many thanks.
climb.

[Smiley]

My ex-rep mentality takes first hold on me as I always delt with issues like our friend has and it seems many have. People do business with people they LIKE, I find this to be true even in my engineering business, you must be fair and treat people with respect. With the internet and mail order and all other avenues of commerce its even more important to fight for each client. Anybody today in the market for a High end bike has way too many choices and the means to make these choices across state lines or Oceans if you deal with overseas businesses. I like to encourage people to buy locally due to warranty and service issues that arise and have sold a bike or two across state lines BUT had worked with the local LBS to supply the build kit and build up of the frame as THAT WAS IN MY CLIENTS BEST INTERESTS, I think I surprised these clients in my desire to make sure they were taken care of with service after the sale first.
Its too bad that Needs Help can't like the shop that fit him or maybe he was fit elsewhere. I for one would insist on doing a re-fit as there is no telling if the first fit is correct and I think any Serotta dealer worth their salt if they are selling the frame would also insist on a re-fit or re-check of the calculations in Needs Help possession. This alone would be a thing to be concerned about from my stand point.

[Kevin]

Climb,

The decision to get a CSi was pretty easy. But when I tell you how I decided on the CSi, I will probably get flamed by everyone on the forum.

1. Unlike many people I can not physically ride a stock frame. I can only ride a custom made frame. MY STA can't be greater than 71.5*. Even with a STA of 71.5* I need to have a set-back seat post to get me a true saddle to BB angle of 70.5-71*.

A. I have a "glass" left knee. I blew out the knee in High School some twenty-odd years ago. I completely severed two ligaments, broke my knee cap and did cartilage damage. This was just before the arthroscope became main stream. After surgery I was on crutches for 6 months and physical therapy for another 6 months. As a result of this surgery I need to have my knee cap about a 1/2 inch behind the pedal spindle, as opposed to above it. In order to achieve this I need a true saddle to BB angle of 70.5 to 71*. To show you how necessary this STA is for me to ride, my first Ottrott was misfabricated 1 degree off (72.5*). I rode it for only 45 minutes and limped around for a week. I brought the frame back to my LBS and told them that something was not right. They measured the frame and discovered that the STA was one degree off from what had been specified. Serotta provided a second Ottrott properly manufactured and I have been riding without pain for 5,000 miles.

B. While I am only 6 feet tall. I have a 35 and 1/2 inch inseam, with a very long thigh bone measurment. In other words, I am all legs. Thereby needing a frame in the 59-61 cm area. Stock frames in this size do not come with the necessary relaxed STA.

C. To make matters worse I have a very short torso. In order to reach the hoods comfortably I need the distance from the handlebar/stem junction to the seat tube to be about 66.5 cm. Using a typical 10 cm stem I need a TT length of 56.5 cm. Stock frames with such a short TT do not come with 59-61 cm seat tube.

2. As a result of the above, my choices in a new bike are limited to custom frames. This cut the field down dramatically to a chosen few. Serotta, Sachs, Kirk, Calfee, etc.

3. I have a character flaw when it comes to loyalty. I have been thrilled by Serotta. I love my Ottrott. It rides like a dream. When my first Ottrott turned out to be incorrectly fabricated, Serotta and my LBS did the right thing. They replaced the frame quickly and at no cost to me. I also get alot of enjoyment out this forum, and the people that I have met as a result of this forum. An enjoyment that Serotta has provided to me at no cost. As a result, when it came time to buy a new bike the first builder I looked at was Serotta. If Serotta could provide me with what I was looking for, I was going to buy a Serotta.

4. This is where I am going to get flamed by members of the forum. I was looking for a road bike that would be used for three purposes: A) a back-up bike for when the Ottrott is out for service, B) a bike that allows me to blend into new groups without people asking a million questions about the Ottrott; and C) a bike to put on the trainer. While I have a couple of old Bianchis that have been played with to almost fit me (crazy looking quills and ergo seat posts) they are getting long in the tooth (cracks developing around the BBs) and I was getting afraid to put them on the trainer or ride them down a steep hill. So I was needing to retire the bikes that had previously provided me with these three things.

A) Any of Serotta's fine road bikes can handle being a back-up bike to the Ottrott. This left me with another Ottrott, or going with a Legend, Concours, CSi, Colorado III, or Coeur d'Acier.

B) The Ottrott and the Legend would not let me slip into a crowd without being asked a million questions. This left me with the Concours, CSi, C III, or Coeur d' Acier.

C) I could not bring myself to put a Ti bike or bike with an ST rear on the trainer. This left me with the CSi and the C III.

Because of the stress that the trainer puts on the frame, I decided a lugged frame would be better. This left me with the CSi. I reviewed some of the posts on the forum about the CSi and people seemed to be very pleased with the bike. I discussed the frame with my LBS and then ordered it.

I know this has been a very long winded explanation, but I have been practicing for when my wife says:

"you spent what on that bike?"

"last year you spent *&&%^ dollars on the Ottrott,
and now you got another bike!"

"what the he** is wrong with you"


As an aside, I was shocked when my LBS told me that the CSi frame takes 9 weeks to deliver. The other frames are running 3-5 weeks if you are a club member. I have no idea why the CSi frame is so much longer.

Kevin

[dbrk]

I find Needs Help's request to be perfectly reasonable even if it rankles dealers. First, there are a lot of nice bikes out there and the CSi isn't the only fine lugged (usually) steel offering. I would go elsewhere if I could not get exactly what I wanted. In fact and let's make no bones about it, a CSi costs a bloody fortune for a production bike, no matter how custom you think it is. Further, Smilely is correct and folks do business with people they like. I happen to like my own local Serotta dealer but there is a dealer of Other Bikes that I happen to like across town and I won't go into his shop (previous experiences). So that leaves out those Other Bikes unless I can find a dealer or a used example. Now, do I really want to waste my time driving to some farther away dealership because them's the "rules?" Who's kidding who? I have better things to do. If the phone and email won't do, the find another bike you love, it's easy. Given Serotta and This Other Bike Company's just-as-restrictive as one another and must-retain-loyalty-to-dealers-at-the-cost-of-sales view of retailing their products, I am frankly just put off unless I can phone a dealer, request politely (re: tell) this person exactly what I want, and get the fair deal I expect to get because business is business. So if I were a Serotta dealer and got a call from someone like Needs Help who knows what he wants, then I would listen politely and if the deal I could give him suits my own retail interests, sell him the darn bike _he_ wants and for which he is _totally responsible_ for sizing. That's what I did with a recent Waterford purchase. I called my pal, I gave him the custom dimensions, he cut me the deal, I agreed, voila, no problem. Warranty is way over rated as an issue because unless the bike is goofy then it's not likely to be invoked. If there is a problem, this is the rare occasion that companies like Serotta will deal directly. Frankly, I appreciate what dealers do for customers who really do need their help but I have no need for their expertise and so find them a very unwanted middle man. Now if you add to this the experience that your local dealer is a jerk (present company most definitely excluded be that dealer or jerk, our good senor) then you gots yerself a problem. So endearing or not, I think Needs Help just needs some help from a cooperative dealer who makes clear his terms (NH is responsible for all fit issues and said-dealer names his prices), and that should be that.

dbrk

[Climb01742]

kevin,
thank you for your detailed reply.
i too feel the tug of loyalty. ben has been awesome in dealing with my ottrott issues. and i too feel like saying thank you for this forum in some more meaningful way that just "thanks". and like you, my body ain't perfect and the better a frame fits, the less my body aches.
i'm trying to be more reasonable with my frame purchases. i'm torn between another pegoretti and a custom serotta, either legend or CSi.
your post lets me know that while frame lust may not be wholy logical, at least we aren't alone.
climb.

[Kevin]

Climb,

I was unaware that you could use the terms "reasonable" and "frame purchase" in the same sentence. If my wife finds out about this "new" rule I am a deadman.

Kevin

[Peter]

If you choose the route of "buy the frame from the dealer and the parts group catalog", then the dealer has the right to:

1. Charge you EXTRA for the installation of those parts. It covers their aggravation, as well as the affront to them because you didn't purchase the kit at that shop. It's my opinion that if you're going the above route, then you should build the bike yourself, or be WILLING to pay WHATEVER the dealer asks for a bike build of this nature.

I don't care how meticulous you are in the catalog ordering process (I have first hand knowledge that Excel is very good at getting specs right), things can/will go wrong and the dealer should not get stuck in the middle. Just this very thing happened to a poster on another forum, and it turned out to be a disaster.

Example: You catalog ordered 42cm bars. Dealer builds the bike. You ride it and the bars don't feel right. You measure and find they're not 42cm. Now you want the dealer to disassemble the bars so you can send them back, but you don't want to pay labor for the work because "the shop should have checked before they installed them". Or maybe you don't want to pay for the install of the new bars. This is JUST an example, but this stuff HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.

2. Understand the dealer is NOT responsible when you subsequently have problems with the components that MIGHT be attributable to the dealer, then again, they might be attributable to the catalog or parts themselves.

This is not a condemnation of your desire to follow this route but an advisement to respect any reservations or limitations a dealer may have to your course of action. Some of them may not present their policy to you well, so ignore their delivery and just respect the message. Trust me; in the long run it will be better to order the parts from the dealer.

[Ozz]

Well put, "Peter"!

I've always a variation of the old saying "You get what you pay for."

It goes: "You get what you settle for."

I've never understood trying to save a couple hundred bucks when spending $4000 or more on a bike.

[bulliedawg]

Some people like to do things themselves. I'm one of them. It's just the way I am. The only time I ever had to get my LBS to bail me out was when I built my wife's Terry, which has several quirks I didn't anticipate.

But I certainly didn't expect my LBS to help me for FREE. That would be ridiculous.

[djg]

You receive the wrong size bars and you'd want the dealer to disassemble the bars? All my road handlebars have come in one piece--when I want to remove them from the bike, I just remove them, I don't take them apart.

Sorry if this sounds flip, but this doesn't seem like an intractable problem to me. Both of my current road bikes were assembled in my garage (with parts ordered from various places that all seemed fine on arrival). No problems. But I have paid for shop work in the past, including work on bikes bought at places other than my LBS (actually, there are a couple of places around here that I like and patronize for various purposes) and I've never had a problem or issue with that.

As for asking a shop to assemble a bike with parts bought elsewhere: seems like a perfectly good way for a shop to make money (by providing service and charging for it) and I gather that most shops in my area are glad (or willing to seem glad) to do this for a fee. A friend of mine--somebody my brother runs with--decided to branch out and try a tri and he is paying a local shop to build up an old frame of my brother's to see if he gets into cycling (mostly with old parts we had, augmented by parts purchased at the shop). It's not complicated. Of course I would never expect a shop in this position, upon discovering something wrong with one of the parts, to do anything other than let me (or him) know that there's a problem with part X and to suggest solutions on the customer's dime.

Should a shop always be happy to do this? Well, seems to me that if they're terribly busy they might well give priority to building bikes bought in-house--nothing wrong with that. And if a particular job looks like an obvious problem walking in the door that's another matter. But in general--and especially in the off-season (for places with an off-season), I don't see the issue.

As for paying whatever the shop asks: well, it seems to me that you should ask what a job is going to cost up front and either pay it or look elsewhere. I don't haggle over labor charges in bike shops, but I do ask up front.

[Smiley]

I think Needs Help should listen the the wise words stated here. I have seen these types of problems arise way too many times. People like DBRK as well as myself are experianced enough to take matters in our own hands but most prefer the luxury of having Pro's do all the heavy lifting. Don't ruin your experiance witha custom frame over a few bucks , go find a dealer you like where ever they are and do a FAIR business transaction with them.

[Johny]

Originally posted by djg


As for paying whatever the shop asks: well, it seems to me that you should ask what a job is going to cost up front and either pay it or look elsewhere. I don't haggle over labor charges in bike shops, but I do ask up front.

Exactly, I got a quote from a small but very good LBS to put a bike together for $150. Then, I made another call to a big LBS since I know there is an ace mechanic working out there (thanks to dbrk's info in the old forum). I asked specifically to have that mechanic to assemble my bike. You know what? What a great job he did for only $75. Know your LBS and ask for the cost in advance.

Also, I think LBS are happy to make some money for assembling your bike even if you do not order the parts from them. This business is tough: with the mailorder and some more knowledged cyclists, who know how to get parts right and cheap, LBS just have to survive this new age. I do want to support my LBS by ordering parts from them though, but over the years, I have known some good dealer pals in the US and UK, who can get me parts much much cheaper than the mailorder, ebay, and not to mention LBS.

[Ginger]

I have found that all my local LBS (whether I like them or not) are very amicable about discussing cost and price of parts, repairs, and installation within reason. If you walk in and say: I'll pay this much for a gruppo and this much for you to install it on my $4000 frame, I think they might be offended and not do a deal (I've seen it happen, that's the joy of being a small business owner, you don't have to do what everyone thinks you'll do). There is ease in every price, you just have to find it in a polite manner.

In general, if I'm having a shop do the work, I'll buy the parts from them. I'm paying for their expertise in installing camagnolo gruppos. Not everyone does that well.

If you're going to be really cheap about it, do it yourself....or.... Here's another option: In my area I know of three mechanics who wrench bikes out of their basement/garages after hours. One guy even has a mobile shop he drives to people's houses. They generally only wrench high zoot stuff. They tend to pick and choose their jobs. You supply the parts, they do the wrenching for a price. These guys are excellent mechanics who don't work at a bike shop anymore. There are probably similar people in your area but be very very careful about picking a good one. Some wannabe bozo can hang out a wrench shingle just as easily as a highly trained mechanic. I trust these guys because I've known them 10 years or more, they're not going to screw up my machine. The drawback is that if your part is junk, you need to get the new part. They don't have stock and they work with the parts you supply. If yours are not correct, they're still what you get, or you go get something different.

[Rollin']

As a bike industry guy, I disagree with Peter's assertion that because of an "affront" to the LBS (by purchasing components from a catalog), the customer should expect to pay MORE than is normal for a pro level bike build. Any shop manager with any sense would treat the customer well in an effort to see what they're missing by shopping mail order...

[Bruce K]

I find that the local shops that I deal with will price match most reasonable catalog/internet prices.

They will not match the real lowball prices, but then I don't ask them to either.

I also try to patronize the shops that support my club(s) and make use of the club discounts as well.

For the most part I find that the small amount I may spend over the lowball prices just isn't worth the savings compared to the service.

Needs - I understand you are trying to get out of this purchase as inexpensively as you can. I also understand you have been working on this for quite some time (since about the time I got my Ottrott). Asking a shop to match pricing like Excel's is not unreasonable (my LBS did on my Ottrott). But then, I didn't haggle with them about the price of the frame or fork. In the end, we both went away happy.

Good luck,

BK

[Ginger]

This is a good April Fools joke. (my first thought when I read the "delivered April 1....)

[vaxn8r]

I'll just say that your lbs can be a huge advocate for you if something goes wrong with a component or frame. That is if they know you and you have a reciprical relationship.

I hear some people complain about their lbs and yet they are the same people who mail order every chance they get and then go from shop to shop comparing prices down to the dollar. If I ran that business (I don't) I wouldn't be bending over backwards for someone who's just checking my prices to use as a reference to buy somewhere else.

Hey, if cost is your bottom line goal then that's fine. You get the no-service that you pay for. But if you want real service, responsive service, you have to show that you're a serious customer. This is the way I approach it and have typically got as good or better prices than mail order for pretty much everything I've ever bought. This from several different shops in different states. It can be done. I also get repairs typically while I wait or same day, replacements for clothing and tires that went "bad" before their time...no questions asked and no shipping. I could go on and on.

Are you looking for real service? Invest in your local shop. It does work if they think you're a serious customer and not a price shopper.

[dbrk]

Given the HUGE disparity between mail order and the LBS price (sometimes the LBS can't even buy the part from their wholesaler for what it is being sold for by mail order), it would be far wiser for the LBS to accept that their profit comes from offering a fair (NOT inflated) price for their labor and accept that they can't compete on price for parts. At least two LBS I know agree with this notion; the other two do not but I have other issues with them. We're not talking about a few dollars in difference here: it's not like driving around to save three cents on gasoline. It's not even a close call, at least around here, as vaxn8r suggests. But the idea that a customer pays more for not buying the parts from a shop would make me go to mail order and buy more tools and do it myself. They wanna deal with me this way, I walk away. This pay a premium idea is nonsense I would not tolerate. Of course, I buy stuff from the LBS where their profit margins are highest (like clothing) because I want to keep them around---for others who need them. Otherwise I buy parts mail order. If I had one or two bikes and needed that nearly-only-one-LBS, I'd bite the bullet but I still wouldn't like it. If we don't like the price, we look elsewhere. I fail to see the point of having it both ways except when a company is more about people than profits. Met one of those lately? There are some. Not many. Some.

dbrk

[Climb01742]

i think the retail world is moving toward two poles: the walmart price is king pole and the lexus service is king pole. there are of course gradations between these poles but i fear the middle ground will someday be lost, vanished. price or service (however one defines it: customer service, selection, warranties, hey they know my name, hey they give me a frequent customer deal every once in a while, whatever.) i'm glad there is a LBS near me who serves me well. it makes my cycling experience better.

[Johny]

Agree with dbrk here. I have a good friend who runs a LBS. I always paid the premiun for the parts from him when I was living close to him. Hey, he had a family to suport and he did not make a lot of profits since his business flow was not big for a small shop.

[Matt Barkley]

I agree with Climb, vaxn8r, others. It seems to me fewer and fewer consumers (cyclists almost more-so) want to pay for service. It seems the lowest price someone can find on the internet from some guy on ebay in Alaska or England (or Excel or other mail-order) is the standard price for a given item. Consumers love to research product, suck the info about of LBSs or anyone they can, spend hours on the internet for the lowest price - and expect an LBS to compete (match price while giving hours of service). Impossible.
If there is one thing for sure I am willing to pay for - it is good service/advice. I cannot relate how many cyclists I see out there with bikes that are not even close to fitting them. I do on occasion politely (someone has a new bike - you can't be rude - they are out riding!!) ask where they purchased their new ________ (you fill in the blank compact geometry size med or lg under a 6'2" 200 plus lb. guy) - 9 out of 10 times answer - "I got a great deal from this mailorder, etc.)
OK - so you aren't that guy. You have a lot of your own tools - and do your own works (mostly) You buy a lot of cycling goods and need good prices. Understood. This is probably most of the forum I am guessing. Well, the harsh economic reality is this: There will be fewer and fewer (if any in some areas) LBS capable of high-end service or stocking parts. (Look at the evolution over the past 2 decades) It continues to swing to the house of cards Walmart pole and a fringe and fragile Lexus pole. I would argue that the consumer loses in this reality. (now especially those trying to enter the sport) Loses short term and definitley long term. The trends of bad service get set in place - quality goes down, (so does certain profit margins) - the consumer has less choise (and usually is not even aware of it)
The bike industry, of course, allows for this. (Marketing can actually encourage this) The previous posts have been a little split, but mostly supporting LBSs if they can. It goes on and on. Sorry for the rant. - Matt

[Kevin]

I am a firm believer in your LBS. I buy almost all of my purchases at the LBS. You can't beat the service. They have tons of knowledge that they want to share. It is also a great place to "hang out" and hide from the wife and kids.

Kevin