Magicshine -- too good to be true?

[fiamme red]

http://www.bikerumor.com/2010/11/18/magicshine-battery-recall-update/

Dear Geomangear Customers,

We are a small, family-owned and operated company dedicated to selling quality products and providing excellent customer service. We are very sorry but due to an overwhelming response we are currently not able to personally respond to most emails. We need to dedicate our limited manpower to the task of working with the U.S. Consumer Products Safety Commission, outside engineering consultants, and a new battery pack supplier to evaluate product recall options for our customers.

Please use our Contact form to notify us of:

1. A warranty problem on a non-battery product within the 90 day warranty period.
2. If you have questions about other products we are currently selling.
3. To request a refund for a lightset purchased within the 90 day warranty period.

Please note we are unable at this time to offer a refund if your lightset is outside of the 90 day warranty period. However, we are working very hard on a remedy with your satisfaction as our goal.

Please check our new Magicshine Recall webpage often for new information. Remember all information we now post must be approved by the Safety Commission. We can not provide any more specifics than what is currently on our website.

You can also find more information on our Facebook and Twitter pages. You can find links to these from our website home page.

We again thank you for your patience and cooperation in this most difficult situation.

Thanks!!
Geoman

[xjoex]

Yup I just purchased mine 2 weeks ago... well you get what you pay for.

It is a super bright light though! However it may burn my house down.

-Joe

[tuxbailey]

Sigh. Should I return mine or wait for the new battery?

The light is bright and the price is right.

Decisions...

[54ny77]

Interesting. But, nothing specific. Very unhelpful press release, that.

Geomangear products always touted as being proprietary, but I bought a brand that is identical in almost every way from an ebay seller a couple of years ago.

Which is another way of saying there are a gazillion knockoffs out there, and I wonder if mine is subject to the same issue--whatever it may be.

[edit: a little google searching came up with this. http://www.msmtb.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2787 . lot of info in there. one of the linnks to exploding lithium polymer batteries....yeah, that's a bummer. not sure if i'm keeping mine after seeing that. worst case, i got about 2 good years outta mine so no complaints.]

[dbh]

I'm in the same boat. Got my light about a month ago, so the warranty is still in effect, and I can get a full refund. The light fit my needs and was bright as hell. Was best bang for the buck in the market. Not sure if I should hold out for a new battery or go with something else. Curious if folks have other recommendations for a light of similar actual lumens (enough for night riding on unlit country roads) that doesn't cost 4x as much.

[gdw]

It's hit or miss. They are all made in China, most likely in the same factory, and use the same components and batteries. I'd be careful of any light built over the past couple years which uses that battery pack.

"Geomangear temporarily has stopped selling Magicshine lightsets due to our concerns regarding the safety, quality, and performance of Magicshine's lithium-ion battery packs sold by Geomangear between July 2009 and November 2010. We have determined that these Magicshine battery packs do not meet Geomangear's high expectations regarding product safety, quality, and performance. We have notified both the manufacturer of Magicshine lightsets and the United States Consumer Product Safety Commission that Geomangear intends to voluntarily recall all Magicshine battery packs sold by Geomangear."

[rice rocket]

They'll probably just send out new packs to everyone. 18650's are $5 a piece, at most.

[54ny77]

if it's just the battery, isn't there something out there that'll work? i have no idea what the spec is though.

[fiamme red]

[edit: a little google searching came up with this. http://www.msmtb.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2787 . lot of info in there. one of the linnks to exploding lithium polymer batteries....yeah, that's a bummer. not sure if i'm keeping mine after seeing that. worst case, i got about 2 good years outta mine so no complaints.]Quote from one of the posts there:

You certainly don't have to sit and watch it like watching water boil. But don't put it on to charge and go to bed at night or leave the house. Charge it outside in your garage...on concrete. Just be smart. If you start getting low run times or the cells start to swell...then its time to stop using it.

There are charge bags called LiPo Sacks you can buy from hobby shops for charging LiPo batteries in. They are fireproof bags and fairly inexpensive.

:eek:

[rice rocket]

if it's just the battery, isn't there something out there that'll work? i have no idea what the spec is though.
Yeah.

They're almost certainly LiCoO2 18650's. It's the defacto standard Li-Ion battery, most your laptops probably use them unless they're lithium polymer. They also make protected 18650 cells that have a little chip on top of the cell, it adds a couple cents to the cost of the cell, but it prevents undercharging and overcharging (and thus, explosions). Problem is, they may not fit into the current battery pack, because it's a couple mm longer.

If you hang out on Candlepowerforums (yeah, I'm on a flashlight forum, sue me ;) ), there are almost monthly cases of people exploding batteries, and almost none of them are protected cells...the protection circuit really works.

Edit: sorry, wrong battery chemistry stated.

[54ny77]

can you suggest a place that would sell a rechargeable pack that would work? maybe somewhere on deal extreme? what specifically would we need?
thanks for any tips. :beer:


Yeah.

They're almost certainly Li-MnO2 18650's. It's the defacto standard Li-Ion battery, most your laptops probably use them unless they're lithium polymer. They also make protected 18650 cells that have a little chip on top of the cell, it adds a couple cents to the cost of the cell, but it prevents undercharging and overcharging (and thus, explosions). Problem is, they may not fit into the current battery pack, because it's a couple mm longer.

If you hang out on Candlepowerforums (yeah, I'm on a flashlight forum, sue me ;) ), there are almost monthly cases of people exploding batteries, and almost none of them are protected cells...the protection circuit really works.

[Ahneida Ride]

DiNotte

Made in New Hampshire, USA ....

Keeps Americans Employed. :banana:

[rice rocket]

Dealextreme has some for sure. It's kinda hard to recommend cells, other than checking what user reviews were. I have a pair of these, which people say are very close to 2400 mAh as advertised:

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.20392

I also have a pair of these:

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.26247

Both are about the same (never measured it's capacity), but never mix them (buy all 4 of one type). Rule #1 of batteries is never mix brands/types. When batteries are in series and one drains faster than the other, the other battery will charge the other at almost no resistance, which is the primary cause of explosions. If you have the tools (some advanced chargers do I guess), or you can pop 'em in a flashlight and time their discharge rates, I'd buy a set of 6 and pick the closest matched 4. Their QC is probably pretty garbage.

I'd start off by unpacking the battery pack first and see how much space there is available for a protected cell.

Edit: is this the pack?

http://www.dealextreme.com/productimages/sku_42077_6.jpg

You might as well build your own pack if it's like that, and cut the wiring harness off the Magicshine pack and build your own.

http://www.batteryspace.com/Battery-holder-Li-Ion-18650-Battery-Holder-2S2P-With-2.6-long-20AWG.aspx

(check the input voltage on the Magicshines, 3.7v is 4 parallel, 8.4v is 2 series, 2 parallel, 14.8v is 4 series)

[54ny77]

thank a ton.

unfortunately, i have no idea what you're talking about! :o :D

(i was hoping somebody already made the pre-wired battery pack.)

cutting, splicing or soldering is not in my bag of tricks at the moment.


(check the input voltage on the Magicshines, 3.7v is 4 parallel, 8.4v is 2 series, 2 parallel, 14.8v is 4 series)

[rice rocket]

Oh.

Well in reality, any 8.4v battery pack will work.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&expIds=17259,24543,27412,27551&sugexp=leprodeca4&xhr=t&q=8.4v+battery&cp=4&qe=OC40dg&qesig=AclSvDZqmBEcQv3XJx_3fg&pkc=AFgZ2tknB4JP79yOwvvvZtObb3sYhIcHZJkYYoPL_5TnqV XDXIOUhZdl5fe88QjF8MvqHan0uhhhDdobGrT2ea6lWURddjsB Kw&safe=off&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=6884191786504911203&ei=l4vlTPLvMsbKswbQxqDOCw&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=image&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBsQ8gIwAA#

This is a NiMH battery, which is almost impossible to blow up. Still gotta figure out connectors and a charger though.

Or you can use a digital camera battery, which gives you good access to chargers, but you'd need to figure out wiring again.

[54ny77]

Ahneida--their website is maddeningly impossible to follow. I'd get something from there right now, but can't follow a thing. Simple chart showing power output, run time, battery requirement/type, price, done. :butt:


DiNotte

Made in New Hampshire, USA ....

Keeps Americans Employed. :banana:

[rice rocket]

DiNotte

Made in New Hampshire, USA ....

Keeps Americans Employed. :banana:
I wouldn't turn down a Dinotte, but I'm sure as hell not paying $400+ for their 1200 lumen light when it's some $40-50 in parts.

[sg8357]

The following is the good part from the MTBR link given above;written by an EE.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++

I have ties to a large local bike club, which includes a fair number of magicshine light users. Based on all the discussion on the forum about magicshine battery issues, I put out a query to the club to find out if many folks were experiencing battery problems. I quickly got a fair number of responses and was "loaned" a number of packs that were experiencing problems.

I opened up the packs and ran them through a couple of cycles while instrumenting the current and voltage of each cell bank. What I found was that the packs were badly out of balance due to what are known as "soft shorts" within the cells. "Soft shorts" cause the cells to self-discharge at a higher rate than normal, which is what throws the pack out of balance. How quickly the pack goes out of balance depend purely on "time" and the extent of the soft short. Number of cycles or how the pack is cared for has little to no effect. This in itself isn't good for the pack, but it doesn't necessarily represent a safety issue. But, I also observed that the protection PCB lets the cells drop down to right below 2V on discharge. That's really below what is safe and can lead to cell damage that can cause a safety issue down the road.

Based on what I found I decided to check a pack that didn't appear to be having obvious problems. I found that this pack was also out of balance, just not enough to be showing such obvious external problems. So these 2 issues are likely interacting with each other. Normally, the protection PCB should only stop charge or discharge in fairly rare cases as a last ditch safety protection. But in the case of the magicshine packs, the protection PCB is having to shutdown the charge / discharge on a large percentage of packs and is doing so on almost every charge cycle and many of the discharge cycles. That has two implications; first it means that even a few rare failures of the protection PCB have a much higher chance that normal of causing a safety issue with the pack. Second, it means the voltage thresholds for the protection PCB really need to be spot on and that doesn't appear to be true.

The net is there really isn't anything the end user can do to in terms of how they care for or use the pack to guarantee that a problem won't occur. I say guarantee because, it's true that having an actual problem is probably somewhat rare. But on the other hand, these kinds of actions don't usually happen if there hasn't been some kind of real world problem. The engineer in me would say, follow the advice and stop using the packs. The mountain biker in me says, a lot of folks are going to keep using them, my advice is be really careful where you charge and store them. Problems are more likely while they are charging but can happen at any time.

[gdw]

"I'm sure as hell not paying $400+ for their 1200 lumen light when it's some $40-50 in parts."

Blasphemy! This the Serotta Forum and we don't tolerate that kind of talk. :banana:

[54ny77]

First is was Mentos and Diet Coke, now Magicshine batteries.

Can't a guy buy something without fear of unintended 'splosion these days? Sheesh...

[rice rocket]

"I'm sure as hell not paying $400+ for their 1200 lumen light when it's some $40-50 in parts."

Blasphemy! This the Serotta Forum and we don't tolerate that kind of talk. :banana:
Haha. Perhaps. But lights are one dimensional. There's light output and that's that. It takes a particular craftsman to create a bike though.

The Dinotte is almost entirely comprised of off the shelf parts, and those that are not are pretty ugly. For instance, external screws? What is this, 1990's GM car fabrication? Get real.

[xjoex]

Well the difference in quality is apparent. Don't get me wrong. I love the light output of the magic shine. But the wires on a niterider are much thicker then on the magic shine, the charger is much more substantial and the finish is much nicer. And they don't burn your house down :)

Review: http://robonza.blogspot.com/2010/10/review-geomangear-magicshine-900-plus.html

I'm torn on whether or not to return it.

Joe

[BobbyJones]

Well, hats off to Geomangear for saying they have an issue and are working to fix it.

Of course final judgement to be made when all is said and done, but its a refreshing course of action nowadays.

[that guy]

Rice Rocket:

So you're saying I could buy something like this (http://www.batteryjunction.com/one838hunihi.html) , wire it up to my MagicShine and go? I would just need to find a way to charge it, right?

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/theshorelinemarket_2130_561365143

[xjoex]

My guess is this this will bankrupt geomangear and no one will get new battery.

Joe

[Not the Slowest]

thank a ton.

unfortunately, i have no idea what you're talking about! :o :D

(i was hoping somebody already made the pre-wired battery pack.)

cutting, splicing or soldering is not in my bag of tricks at the moment.

This unit has twice the capacityc
http://www.all-battery.com/li-ion1865074v8800mahpcbprotectedrechargeablebatteryw ithdcconnector.aspx

This unit will work just fine but you need to attach the compatable tip.
http://www.batteryspace.com/Li-Ion-18650-Battery-7.4V-4400mah-32.56Wh-4x18650-2S2P-Square-China.aspx?SSAID=314743

This tip should work and may need a lil tweak:
http://www.batteryspace.com/li-ion18650batterywithwater-proofcoatingrubber74v4400mah3256whtrail-techfemaleplugchinacells.aspx

Check Bikeforums.net Eletric lights forum and there is lots of talk on options or what happened.

Bottom line:
DO NOT USE THE BATTERY under the MAGICSHINE NAME.

Geoman is involved in some type of recall, the EXACT TEXT and Link is here and different from what the OP posted
http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?main_page=recall

They say the CPSC is involved but this will take a long time to resolve.
I personally suggest if its under the 90 warranty then try to get a refund OR check with PayPal if ordered through them.

Other Options are the Dinnotte Lion battery seems to work with unit as people have stated on BForums. You will need a battery & Charger.

I plan to buy another Dinotte for this winter and if a new battery comes from Geoman more power to me, maybe use an extra Dinotte battery with the light.

Good luck to all

Rob :no:

[Not the Slowest]

Wrong Voltage

Rice Rocket:

So you're saying I could buy something like this (http://www.batteryjunction.com/one838hunihi.html) , wire it up to my MagicShine and go? I would just need to find a way to charge it, right?

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/theshorelinemarket_2130_561365143

[54ny77]

Cool. Thanks!

I'd rather spend $60 to give a new battery pack & charger a whirl vs. $400 on a new light.


Rob :no:

[Not the Slowest]

I have the light and it is quite nice and been using it since October last year. Over time the battery has lost way too much power.
First the batteryies were NOT waterproof and people suggested fixes. at the same time people had recived bad batteries and were given replacements. Eventually the waterproofing was resolved ad a few fixes such as a new battery bag , shorter cable to name two.
The biggest problem I believe of late was more and more bad batteries. Geoman CAN NOT or finally woke up and is not stating the reason for their no longer selling them.
But I am sure it's quality/safety. Dinotte had issues in the past but only with ONE battery style so they were able to keep selling units and besides they were the manufacturer.
As such they can spec out NEW battery or instruct that a new source be found for them.

As one forummember here asked:
Should I return it? My BRAIN says yes, if you can. I am not using mine any longer as instructed by Geoman.
Of course you should have received an email from them. Don't feel bad, I haven't as many have said.
On MTBR and BForums people are shouting praise that Geoman is doing the right thing. From a business point I would say he has to stand behind the product. However, the product manufacturere is not in his control as he is a ditributor and there are several in the states of Magic Shine products.
I was blasting on MTBR that I was a TROLL saying that he may not survive this and could file Chapter 11.
We'll see, but his margin is so low and the legal consequence is so high he really should do it just to protect himself.
It's the American way.
Just ask GM


Well the difference in quality is apparent. Don't get me wrong. I love the light output of the magic shine. But the wires on a niterider are much thicker then on the magic shine, the charger is much more substantial and the finish is much nicer. And they don't burn your house down :)

Review: http://robonza.blogspot.com/2010/10/review-geomangear-magicshine-900-plus.html

I'm torn on whether or not to return it.

Joe

[Not the Slowest]

From what I UNDERSTAND the battery is the issue and the light is fine. Just take care to make sure:
a) You have the correct battery with plug
b) Correct charger
c) The battery is waterproof


Cool. Thanks!

I'd rather spend $60 to give a new battery pack & charger a whirl vs. $400 on a new light.

[rice rocket]

Wrong Voltage

8.4v is actually the right voltage. The LED driver is rated to accept 8.4v nominal. I bet you a large sum of money that they use this:

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.20330

LiCoO2's operate from at 4.2v nominal (8.4v 2x in series), average voltage is 3.7v (7.4v), and fully discharged at 3.0v.

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/1066/pana2900discharge28v.gif

NiMH are fully charged at ~1.25v, and are almost fully discharged under 1.2v. NiMH's hold a much more constant voltage (which will usually mean a more steady brightness, but a quicker drop from brightness to nothing).

http://www.zbattery.com/core/media/media.nl?id=7475&c=288557&h=2a1b3ef0be265dd7bdef

So you'll have a slight overvoltage in the beginning, but it'll quickly settle to 1.2v.

[Blue Jays]

GeoManGear has provided outstanding customer service for years.
I'll do everything possible to help GeoManGear business during this difficult time.
They have consistently been helpful, courteous, and customer-focused.

[Not the Slowest]

I stand corrected, but it's Sold Out :beer:
8.4v is actually the right voltage.

[Ahneida Ride]

Ahneida--their website is maddeningly impossible to follow. I'd get something from there right now, but can't follow a thing. Simple chart showing power output, run time, battery requirement/type, price, done. :butt:

Yea ... it's got issues ...

Send me a PM ... I can get you in the right direction.

[rice rocket]

Well the difference in quality is apparent. Don't get me wrong. I love the light output of the magic shine. But the wires on a niterider are much thicker then on the magic shine, the charger is much more substantial and the finish is much nicer. And they don't burn your house down :)

Review: http://robonza.blogspot.com/2010/10/review-geomangear-magicshine-900-plus.html

I'm torn on whether or not to return it.

Joe
Missed your post. Didn't know they had compact HID headlamps like you have. Do you know how many watts it is? You say the Magicshine is brighter, which leads me to believe it's pretty low wattage (i.e. a 10W HID flashlight is rated at 500 lumens, while the SSC P7-Cs @ 2.4A...which is what Magicshine claims...is usually 700 lumens).


Also, there's a reason HID units have thicker wires + insulation though, HID ignitors push ~30,000 volts on startup. Most wiring insulation can't contain that much voltage.


Anyways, I'm just about done w/ my cross bike, disc brakes come in this Saturday...thinkin' about trying out this night riding thing! :hello: Is there a reason it's more appealing to mountain bikers than road bikers?

[jlwdm]

...thinkin' about trying out this night riding thing! :hello: Is there a reason it's more appealing to mountain bikers than road bikers?

I really like night riding on the road. Went out at 9:00 tonight for a 25 mile peaceful ride. About 45 degrees - nice.

Jeff

[54ny77]

This thread had me go back and look at my records for purchasing the magicshine (I got it from an ebay seller). Here's an interesting piece he put out for battery care in general:

http://home.comcast.net/~jharger1/batterycare.pdf

[skreaminquadz]

I bought my MS last winter and have been very pleased with it. However, I can't wait for a new battery this time of year and I use it 3-5 days per week. If this occured over the summer and I would have been fine waiting. So I just sunk some money into this light from Exposure - it's called the Joystick. I've heard good reviews on it, we'll see...

http://www.exposurelights.com/product/000057/joystick-mk.5/

[rice rocket]

It's not like the battery spontaneously combusts...

Don't run it all the way down to nothing before charging and it'll be fine.

[54ny77]

lucky me, i let it run all the way down....

i'm just going to toss it. last thing i need is 'sploding battery mayhem.

the cost of a new light, even a fancy one, is still less than my insurance deductible, should an exploding magicshine battery wreak havoc....

here's my battery. you can see the circuits at the top.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z113/jpmz06/Bike/IMG_2691.jpg

(ignore the taped-on bike tube--i use that for a little extra hidden padding due to the way i mount it underneath the stem.)

It's not like the battery spontaneously combusts...

Don't run it all the way down to nothing before charging and it'll be fine.

[54ny77]

Folks: here's an update from the guy who sold it to me ("dapedaler" on ebay):

"The batteries that MagicShine was including with their sets up until recently were of poor quality. The main issue from my perspective was the 10% failure rate I was seeing in the first 6 months of use. There is a slight chance that if miss-handled they could present a fire hazard. But that's true for even the best of Li-ion batteries. I have prepared an article on battery care that outlines the proper procedures to safely use, charge, and store your battery. It can be found in my E-Bay store or at http://home.comcast.net/~jharger1/batterycare.pdf
It is not clear if these older batteries really present any greater danger. I believe that as usual, the CPSC believes it is better to error on the side of abundant caution.
Geomangear is talking about a recall, but as of now MagicShine has not agreed to supply replacements so it's not clear what will end up happening. It could take some time.
The good news (sort of) is that when some indication of problems started to show, (and after prodding from myself and others) MagicShine made a switch to a new supplier with much better quality. All the batteries I now have in stock are from this new supplier.

- dapedaler"