Hey TiDesigns. Would you care to weigh in on this one?

[false_Aest]

"Weight training does not help with road racing type of power demands, even short explosive power as suggested . . . .its physiological, not individual, short explosive power, say arround 30 sec is best trained on bike. As for road racing sprints, they are not maximal efforts since you are tired from the aerobic work done prior."

------

I hear arguments like this a lot.

I know you work with your kids in the gym. Care to give your thoughts on that?

Also, how does the gym routine you craft differ from the way most people lift (To simplify this, let's assume we're talking about people who have correct form, use weights properly, etc. The ones that do pyramids--4+ sets that go down in reps but up in weight--or straight sets--sets of a set number and weight).

Finally, let's narrow this a little bit. I'm pretty sure that for most joes weight work would benefit them---in a general sense.

[Likes2ridefar]

I'm not ti, but I lurk on the google group wattage where every year there's a huge debate on whether it's worth weight training, or not.

The argument is never resolved and there's never been any formal data showing one is better than the other, at least that satisfies everyone. And because of this many think weight training is a waste of time or even detrimental since you might add unnecessary muscle mass to your body.

I've gone both ways and have decided I don't need to do weight training but I do perform yoga fairly regularly throughout the winter. I've found it strengthens my body and also balances it out while making it way more flexible.

I've been more comfortable on the bike since I started doing this.

[jlwdm]

Joe Friel says that as you age (Masters and over) you should do some weight training all year round.

Jeff

[rwsaunders]

Here's why you need to mix in some weight training....the Chicken Man...

[rdparadise]

Here's why you need to mix in some weight training....the Chicken Man...

Rob:

Is he still kicking around? I thought he was banned.

Bob

[thwart]

How about Ivan... looks like he believes in resistance training...


http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races10/misc10/tt-basso.jpg

[1centaur]

Rasmussen - May be the protected rider for Saxo Bank at the Tour next year.

[false_Aest]

I'm not sure I'm talking about pros lifting.

1) They're not human.

2) They also are on a routine that is alien to most of us. --> See 1)


I guess I'm curious about how weights benefit the person that's 92 steps above desk jockey, 10 steps above rides a lot, 5 steps above has a license and races occasionally, and 50 steps below cat 1/pro

There's an obvious benefit for those who don't do much. While those that do a metric eff tonne live in a different world. What about those in the middle. *cough* me.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . left the building of his own accord.

BBD

[Ti Designs]

One reason I didn't want to respond to this is that I can explain the workout and the reasons I have my riders lift, but I could never explain good form. The biggest setback in my racing career came from poor form at the gym resulting in a back injury. I've seen too many of my own riders hurt themselves at the gym. At this point a conversation about weight training starts with a trip to the gym to go over good form and proper technique.

[Likes2ridefar]

Strongly agree with that. I took a lot of private lessons awhile ago and it made a world of difference lifting weights.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . to have you back, Ti. :hello:

BBD

[Bob Loblaw]

I've read a couple of studies on weight training for cyclists, and the research I have seen provides no clear answer to whether or not weight training benefits cycling performance directly. Based on my experience, I believe it does when performed properly and in moderation, but regardless of how much I think I know, my personal opinion is worth a fart in a hurricane.

Be that as it may, there are reasons for cyclists to lift weights that don't have to do directly with cycling performance.

Bone density can be a problem for cyclists. Resistance training is an effective way to build stronger bones. And stronger muscles are more crash-resistant.

Cycling is great for the legs and lungs, but not so much for the upper body. Adding resistance training can round out a healthy lifestyle, and help you more easily do physical tasks besides ride a bike.

A strong core, back, and shoulder girdle can help you stay comfortable on the bike for longer periods.

Weight training at high intensity has been shown to increase testosterone production. Good to keep the yang up.

And there's really no downside. Weight training does not necessarily dramatically increase muscle mass. Through a combination of diet and training methods, it's possible to emphasize strength development, not size. Rock climbers, for example, have very dense, high quality, low volume muscle.

BL

[Charles M]

Cross training for ballance and core is a plus.

You name a top name pro from North america and there is a 90% chance that I have seen them using weights, ballance balls, plyometrics and other off bike movement to help stability and strength on the bike...

[Ralph]

I think Bob above nailed it for many of us.

As a 69 year old, I think weight training is absolutely essential to maintain overall health for an active life style. It may or may not improve cycling. And it doesn't have to mean "heavy" lifting. Less weight, to avoid injury, and more reps, are what I do. Just trying to keep the muscles working, so nothing heroic here. Just interested in maintaining strength levels as long as I can. I still have to be able to put my mower in back of Element to get to mower shop, without injury, etc. That's my goal these days.

[HenryA]

Riding only won't work long term. You need to keep all muscle groups in balance and maintain good core strength. You'll have fewer injuries and perform better. Some kind of weight and general conditioning program is essential to get the best out of your body. Be sure to work on the parts that don't get worked in cycling. And don't be a hero. You don't have to lift huge weights to get big benefits.

[Ti Designs]

If you're looking for reasons to weight train for cycling, I can give you a few... The off season is a good time to break down cycling into it's component parts and work each individual part harder than you would just by riding. Think about it, if riding all summer hasn't built more strength, how is just continuing to ride going to work?

There are two reasons to weight train for riding which both have to do with the strength of a muscle tissue. The first is strength - how much tension that muscle fiber can generate. That's what most people think when they talk weight training. How well that translates to producing power on the bike depends on riding technique and how specific the weight training is. I've seen studies on weight training and cycling and I've looked at the weight training program and I can see why they come to the conclusions they do...

The second reason for weight training has to do with the tensile strength of the muscle fibers. When you exceed the tensile strength of the muscle it creates tears. This is the sore or stiff feeling you get the day after you lift too much at the gym. The same sort of damage happens on the bike from repeated stress cycles at high intensity, but the result is fatigue. Increasing the tensile strength of the muscle fibers and connective tissue, which the body does as a result of weight training will put the tension range of intense efforts below where the damage happens.

The more I refine my weight training program the more weight lifters tell me I'm doing it all wrong. The program is based on generating power in the position and within the same range of motion as is used on the bike. So on the inverted leg press I have my hips firmly against the support, my back forward of the back rest, and I'm getting a total of 11" of travel. On the bike I'm only using the glutes from 1:30 to 4:30, with 170mm cranks that's about 11" of travel. Everything within my program is done with an eye on how the muscles are used on the bike.

The number of reps and sets is based on two things. 1) cycling is an endurance sport, 6 reps means nothing. 2) the body can't really judge weight very well - at least not with the larger muscle groups. So, the pyramid sets on the leg press are a sort of mind game. The first pyramid looks something like this:

50 reps @ 1 plate/side
42 reps @ 2 plates/side
34 reps @ 3 plates/side
26 reps @ 4 plates/side
18 reps @ 5 plates/side
10 reps @ 6 plates/side
20 reps @ 5 plates/side
30 reps @ 4 plates/side
40 reps @ 3 plates/side
50 reps @ 2 plates/side

So it's down by 8's, up by 10's. If a second pyramid is done, it's the same thing but it's starting at 50 reps @ 2 plates/side and goes up to 10 reps @ 7 plates/side. The odd thing is that until you reach the limits of your own strength, you can't tell the difference between 6 plates and 7 plates.

Much of the work I do at the gym isn't based on strength at all, it's based on increasing the blood flow under tension. The leg extension for example. Once the weight if lifted there's always some tension on the quads. The point in doing long sets with one leg is to increase the LT of the quads by increasing the load on the vascular system.

[regularguy412]

....snipped...

The number of reps and sets is based on two things. 1) cycling is an endurance sport, 6 reps means nothing. 2) the body can't really judge weight very well - at least not with the larger muscle groups. So, the pyramid sets on the leg press are a sort of mind game. The first pyramid looks something like this:

50 reps @ 1 plate/side
42 reps @ 2 plates/side
34 reps @ 3 plates/side
26 reps @ 4 plates/side
18 reps @ 5 plates/side
10 reps @ 6 plates/side
20 reps @ 5 plates/side
30 reps @ 4 plates/side
40 reps @ 3 plates/side
50 reps @ 2 plates/side

So it's down by 8's, up by 10's. If a second pyramid is done, it's the same thing but it's starting at 50 reps @ 2 plates/side and goes up to 10 reps @ 7 plates/side. The odd thing is that until you reach the limits of your own strength, you can't tell the difference between 6 plates and 7 plates.

Much of the work I do at the gym isn't based on strength at all, it's based on increasing the blood flow under tension. The leg extension for example. Once the weight if lifted there's always some tension on the quads. The point in doing long sets with one leg is to increase the LT of the quads by increasing the load on the vascular system.

The workout I do looks similar to the one cited above. However, I don't have a Smith Machine or any kind of sled to help me do the work. I just have free weights and just do either full- or 3/4- squats.

I also prefer to do circuit training with pre-fatiguiging of the muscle groups. That is, I do a long set of leg extensions, followed immediately by a set of hamstring curls,,, followed immediately by a set of squats.

I can definitely tell the weight training helps me a lot. However, my muscle type tends toward fast twitch. I can put on muscle pretty easily, especially in the upper body -- so I don't lift heavy for arms, shoulders, back and chest. I have also found that it takes me from early January to early March being away from the weights, in order to get my endurance back in line.

Mike in AR:beer:

[jlwdm]

Here is a weight program for cyclists from this week's RBR Newsletter:


"Exactly 2 years ago, RBR introduced a special product for cycling improvement -- Strength Training for Cyclists, a DVD program created by Harvey Newton, veteran roadie and former coach of the U.S. Olympic Weightlifting Team.

The DVD was accompanied by a 165-page instruction manual and packaged in a messenger bag. Hundreds of these programs were sold for $99.95.

Today, we're pleased to announce Coach Newton's new version of Strength Training for Cyclists, which drops the price all the way down to $39.95 with free shipping for U.S. customers (sorry, there's a $15 upcharge for foreign orders).

The guts of the program remain the same, starting with the 42-minute instructional DVD that features Coach Newton and athletes demonstrating proper weight lifting form for best results and safety. All essential exercises for cyclists are included.

The messenger bag is gone and the manual has been replaced by a compact 28-page, illustrated, spiral-bound Quick Guide -- easy to carry and refer to in the weight room. It's laminated and virtually indestructible. The Guide includes 4 workout charts with strength training phases termed Foundation, Strength, Power and Maintenance.

Strength Training for Cyclists is designed to help you build the muscular strength that enables riding longer, stronger and more comfortably. Greater strength also protects against injuries, whether caused by the stresses of cycling or by crashing.

Coach Newton is a longtime friend of RBR and a great guy to boot. He invested a good deal of personal resources to create this limited-production program. He dispels myths that surround strength training -- for example, that it causes bodyweight gain -- and he makes sure that cyclists who want the benefits of "iron therapy" will get maximum results from minimal time in the weight room.

"Over the years," Coach Newton says, "I have found that cyclists -- women and older riders included -- want to spend as little time in the gym as necessary while still optimizing results. It's my program's intention to help you achieve that goal. It will improve your cycling performance in only 45-60 minutes, two or three times per week."

Strength Training for Cyclists is for every rider in search of functional strength development -- whether to perform better in competition, long-distance events, touring or simply in recreational riding while enjoying greater overall fitness and injury protection. The program is ideal for off-season training and, even better, as part of a year-round plan for cycling improvement.

That's a load of benefits, and we're happy Coach Newton has made them more affordable.

Ed Pavelka
Editor, Publisher, 2 Years in the Program"

Jeff

[dogdriver]

Mr. TI-- What weight are the plates you use? 45 pounds/ each or something else?

Your workout makes a lot of sense (as usual). I usually do no less than 20 reps on either a Hammer leg press (its what the local gym has) or a horizontal Nautilus-type machine, but hadn't thought to go much higher. Sounds like a good concept-- I'll give it a try and report back if I can still sit at the desk afterwards!

Best, Chris

[false_Aest]

I'll give it a try and report back if I can still sit at the desk afterwards!


Just wait until you try to take a dump.


ED,

I think your philosophy, if I can call it that, comes out clear. The clarification you make between "weight training" and lifting weights in order to benefit cycling is rad.


Thanks!

[Ti Designs]

Mr. TI-- What weight are the plates you use? 45 pounds/ each or something else?

Your workout makes a lot of sense (as usual). I usually do no less than 20 reps on either a Hammer leg press (its what the local gym has) or a horizontal Nautilus-type machine, but hadn't thought to go much higher. Sounds like a good concept-- I'll give it a try and report back if I can still sit at the desk afterwards!

Best, Chris

We'll call them units, that way you don't go comparing what you're lifting with what someone else is lifting. It's kinda like wattage, I produce "Ed Watts", you produce "Chris Watts", they're apples and oranges... Two words of warning: First, any time I get a rider into the gym I emphasize what I call acclimation to the program. You don't know what weights your body can handle, so take a few weeks and ease into it. The first workout is way easier than you think it should be. If you're not at all sore from that, increase the weights. It's the only safe way of finding your starting point - I've been doing this for over 20 years, I still give myself 2 weeks to work into the start of the program. The idea of overload only works in small amounts. If you're kinda sore after a weight increase, your body will adapt and get stronger. If you can't walk, you'll wind up sitting in pain in front of the TV. Second, there are a number of machines that do a horrible job of supporting the weight. What you need to avoid is called axial loading, or putting the full load your glutes can generate on the spine - very bad.


A few observations about weights: I've noticed that most of the natural sprinters start with higher weights and get to huge weights. Both Julia and Eve could push 8 45 pound plates per side. By comparison, the natural climbers would start really low and never get that high. Lily and Aimee both started with nothing on the sled and worked their way up to 3 plates per side. The observations on the bike were that the sprinters, while able to generate huge amounts of power, didn't have much feedback. They were on/off switches on the training, unable to tell 6/10ths from 9/10ths. In reading the climber's training log I noticed a lot of high pain index numbers after interval workouts before they started weight training. The one thing that stood out in their riding after weight training was the lack of fear of attacking, knowing they weren't going to pay the same price the next day.

[dogdriver]

FWIW, I did Mr. Ti's ladder yesterday on a Nautilus leg press machine (the Hammer hack squat sled is broken). Went from "200" to "400" plates. The high reps nature of the workout certainly gave me a type of fatigue I haven't experienced before. A little crispy in the legs today, but no pain, so I'll go up one plate next time. Thanks for the workout idea!

14" of snow in the driveway this AM-- the road bike is going in the attic and the new Pugsley is ready!

Best, Chris