modern carbon vs. old(er) steel for climbing

[130R]

Backstory: I have a Calfee Tetra Pro that I purchased early this summer. I was professionally fitted and built the bike up the way I wanted. I even bought the compact crankset knowing in advance i was going to be moving soon. I also have a '94 Reparto Corse Bianchi Genius. I was not fitted on this bike, but all the contact points are the same as the Calfee.

This summer I was blazing around Sacramento with the Calfee while the Bianchi sat around. The Calfee felt very stiff and because of that, it felt great to get on the drops and put the power down.

In Sacramento the Bianchi just felt like a bike. Nothing too special. It was the heavier "training" bike. The road feedback was what was so special about this bike.... and i liked the chrome stays :D

------

This fall I moved to San Luis Obispo. Recently I was almost struck by some college kid in a Lexus so I decided to use the Bianchi more.

After a few rides on the Bianchi here in SLO, it soon was becoming my favorite bike. The bike came alive on climbs and felt as though it was "helping me out".

The Calfee in comparison felt like "lets just get this climb over and done with". On flats, it's performance made up for not being great up hills.

specs:

Calfee: Carbon, Chorus 10 UT, Compact, Reynolds DV46C, Corsa Evo 320tpi, 11-23 gearing, 15 lbs

Bianchi: Columbus Genius, Dura Ace 8sp, Standard Crankset, Ksyrium SL, Corsa Evo 290tpi, 13-23 gearing, 18.5 lbs

I thought that carbon was the "wonder" material and that a lighter bike helps with climbing?

Can anyone relate to what I'm talking about?

...Or is it just a placebo?

How did this plain jane Bianchi become this awesome climbing machine?

[rice rocket]

Maybe you just like the gearing better?



There's so many variations on how a carbon bike can feel, your Calfee probably covers 1/50th of what's on the market today.

[veloduffer]

Some of the attractiveness of steel has been its lively response to hard efforts. It does feel like the bike works with you and isn't "dead" or unresponsive. That's why steel bikes will never go away, as the closest material is titanium for that feel.

Too many folks get caught up in the stiffness hype and that stiffer is better (well, not in bikes at least ;) ). Riding and the feel is more nuanced. Glad to hear that you've felt the magic of steel again. :banana:

[Uncle Jam's Army]

It's placebo, IMO. By sheer coincidence, I rode my Bianchi EL-OS today on one of my regular route with about 3,000 feet of climbing (I was sick this weekend and felt like I needed a more lively Monday ride than usual). Although the bike's ride is certainly more plush than either my Cannondale Team Six-13 or my Time RXR Ulteam, there really is no comparison on the climbs. Both the Cannondale and the Time climb without the feeling of giving up anything you put down; it's all forward motion. The Bianchi feels like it gives a little under hard efforts on the climb, but, surprisingly, I felt less fatigued at the end (same tire pressure as the other bikes, but different wheelset).

It's hard to give you any more real input than this, as I intentionally don't have a computer on the Bianchi. When I get on that bike, I'm not interested in how fast I'm going, my heart rate, distance, or anything else. I ride that bike for the pure enjoyment of riding. But I wouldn't take that bike out if I wanted to really hammer up some hills. The Cannondale and the Time are much more suited for that, IMO.

[ultraman6970]

Interesting...

Some people does not feel when an oil change has been made in their cars, and other does not feel differences between frames in any aspect, but so far (for me) for climbing carbon frames are the bomb. Do not take me wrong, i love steel bikes, actually racing ones, hate touring bikes because are like riding an 18 wheeler and I cant get used to that feeling, ex tracker here so been riding racing bikes geometries since i was 12 y/o.

As a good tracker i sucked big time going up hill compared with climbers, compared with a regular human being I kicked @ss big time "back in the day". I don't like light bike either, that said so far the best bike for climbing is a carbon bike that is pretty heavy compared with others in the market, a kuota. I have had 2 colnago master back in the day, 1 ALAN other good stuff in steel, I even still have a custom frame which i is an all arounder but nothing like the kuota going in long climbs, for short stuff my bmc slo1 rocks big time.

[eddief]

your distance from the equator decreases. the increased temperature that derives from the proximity to the equator has an effect on the molecular structure of the steel; sorta like when the tubes were welded at the bianchi factory during manufacture. when the structure changes like this, all steel frames will perform closer to how god intended. move to san diego and i guarantee that bianchi will ride like one from the hands of david kirk.

[troymac]

your distance from the equator decreases. the increased temperature that derives from the proximity to the equator has an effect on the molecular structure of the steel; sorta like when the tubes were welded at the bianchi factory during manufacture. when the structure changes like this, all steel frames will perform closer to how god intended. move to san diego and i guarantee that bianchi will ride like one from the hands of david kirk.


Wish i could afford to live in San Diego I'm sure my cycling up hills or down or anywhere for that matter would improve. Heck maybe just having the bike laying in the sand and being on the beach would be better.

[StellaBlue]

Your legs climb, not your frame..

[John H.]

I don't want to be a stick in the mud but my Calfee was a dead bike. Never felt responsive or right. I went back to steel and also aluminum bikes for many years before I tried a newer carbon bike. I love my Tarmac SL3- feels nothing like the Calfee did.
I would not exactly call Calfee "modern carbon" they have been making them the same way for like 20 years.

[eddief]

I have 3 road bikes and all 3 are steel. one has a carbon fork, two have steel forks and geo is either sporty or a bit taller and longer. each does ride really nicely, but each is a little different. one a little lighter, one longer, one right in the middle of both of those attributes. each also has a different brand, model, and width of tire. those things all add up to how each feels and seems to perform.

My mood, how well I've slept, and how much I have ridden recently make a big difference. Good coffee is in there someplace too.

[Matt Barkley]

We are all really on to something here.. Seriously.. These previous post about gearing and coffee and geography are real.

Feels like we are all always changing. Give some feedback that we are not (changing all the time over seasons, etc.)

To me it has always felt so good returning to earlier models.. ( Frames, Pedals/Cleats/Shoes, cranks, saddles.... you name it)

Except for short too-hard rides.. Ha! - Matt - :beer:

[130R]

I don't want to be a stick in the mud but my Calfee was a dead bike. Never felt responsive or right. I went back to steel and also aluminum bikes for many years before I tried a newer carbon bike. I love my Tarmac SL3- feels nothing like the Calfee did.
I would not exactly call Calfee "modern carbon" they have been making them the same way for like 20 years.

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/MargaretCho.jpg

i'm jk though, it's good to hear your input

[gasman]

I think it's mostly in your head. So much of riding depends on how you've slept, your diet, the wheels, air pressure in the tires etc, etc. 3 lbs difference between the bikes is nothing. A full water bottle is 2 lbs. I have a steel Co-motion, a Ti litespeed and a Calfee tertra pro. I've also test ridden a ton of other bikes including the SL3. My Litespeed is a bit of a noodle compared to the other but stiffer wheels made a difference in the ride (Mavic K's)
The Calfee may be older technology but it has a 25 year warrenty for a reason-it ain't gonna break.
If you think you climb better on Bianci great, then use it. My Calfee is my favorite bike for everything-climbing,crits and road races. The ride changes depending on what wheels I put on it and what tire pressure I use more than the material itself.

[dave thompson]

Material doesn't make a bike a climber, it's going to be the application of the material; dimensions, geometries, etc. A good climber can be made of most any of the bike frame materials, as can a bad climber. To say that carbon/Ti/steel/alu will make a better climbing bike, IMO, is nonsense. There's a whole lot more to it than that.

[rustychisel]

My Calfee is my favorite bike ... the ride changes depending on what wheels I put on it and what tire pressure I use more than the material itself.


uh oh!! Now you've gone and done it. ;) ;)

Why would they bother making it out of crabon, or bamboo, or whatever then?

[gasman]

uh oh!! Now you've gone and done it. ;) ;)

Why would they bother making it out of crabon, or bamboo, or whatever then?

Yep-it doesn't matter that much, they just want to sell bikes :D I think Craig started bamboo just to experiment. I'd love to have one but in the PNW it doesn't make sense.

[fogrider]

Yep-it doesn't matter that much, they just want to sell bikes :D I think Craig started bamboo just to experiment. I'd love to have one but in the PNW it doesn't make sense.

PNW...I had to google it...so why not? the bamboo is finished. I think that weigh comes into play on longer climbs. ten minute of climbing is not a big deal to carry 10 more pounds, but on a 60 minute climb, the pounds add up.

[sg8357]

After a few rides on the Bianchi here in SLO, it soon was becoming my favorite bike. The bike came alive on climbs and felt as though it was "helping me out".

There is a term for this, but we don't talk about it around here.

http://groups.google.com/group/bqrr/browse_thread/thread/d5cf864f655f44f1?hl=en#

[Charles M]

Bike feel is bike feel.

I know folks that would feel it both ways... That's why there are plenty of options in both materials. :hello:

[Ralph]

I don't think it's frame material slowing about 99% of the members of this forum on their climbing. Mostly belly material.

[RADaines]

To the OP: Was the Calfee made specifically for you? If so, what ride characteristics did you specify for the build?

[Bob Loblaw]

A bike's weight, provided it's not obscenely heavy, is overblown as a factor in climbing performance. 15 lbs is way light, but 18.5 lbs is still a nice light bike. Every bike has a unique fit and feel, and it's just a matter of what you like.

BL

[dd74]

I'm starting to also believe weight is overblown. I.E., I can barely tell the 3-pound difference from my 1-yr-old carbon bike and 23-year-old steel bike in almost every type of riding. Sprinting is possibly the largest variable, where the carbon frame just wants to go, while the steel frame likes to, for lack of a better term, "spool up" a bit, then snap forward.

Fact is, I doubt one or the other frame makes me faster or slows me down.

[soulspinner]

I don't think it's frame material slowing about 99% of the members of this forum on their climbing. Mostly belly material.

You been peeking............... :o

[slowgoing]

Not placebo. We have a 12% average grade hill here, almost 1 mile long. My experience is some frames just climb that hill better, they seem to give back pedal input on the upstroke, making it easier to keep the pedals turning. Others, not so much. It definitely makes a difference while grinding up steep grades.

[djg]

Not placebo. We have a 12% average grade hill here, almost 1 mile long. My experience is some frames just climb that hill better, they seem to give back pedal input on the upstroke, making it easier to keep the pedals turning. Others, not so much. It definitely makes a difference while grinding up steep grades.

The thing about placebo effects is that they actually are measurable effects. If something about frame a feels better than frame b, you might very well climb better on frame a -- it doesn't follow that this has to do with frame a losing less energy or "returning" energy more usefully, and it doesn't follow that another rider would produce the same results, but maybe that doesn't matter for your purposes. I find it pretty dubious that the Bianchi is a better climbing bike in general mechanical terms, but what works for you in a given context is what works for you -- you should ride what you like.

[martinrjensen]

man, if you can feel the difference in the performance of your car after an oil change, you got a serious car problemInteresting...

Some people does not feel when an oil change has been made in their cars, ...snipped.....