Tubulars vs Clinchers [Archive] - The Paceline Forum

Pete Serotta

11-12-2010, 09:08 AM

Tubulars are perceived, at least by me, to require more work if I have a flat on the road. Additionally the tube is easier to repair, than the tubular.

Also for me personally, the good clinchers have come a long way in performance and handling....Conti GP4000s and Victoria Corsa at around $60s are my two favorite but what I think is a good tubular is above that price.

If weight of wheel is most important than a tubular would be the first choice for me for the wheel/tire is the lightest then.

In Europe or with such as the Lightweight wheels the tubular wheels out sell the clincher by a large margin. Clinchers seem to be more popular in US than Europe by a significant %.

THis is just my views and not meant to be the best for all :eek: PETE

fourflys

11-12-2010, 09:11 AM

Also for me personally, the good clinchers have come a long way in performance and handling....Conti GP4000s and Victoria Corsa at around $60s are my two favorite but what I think is a good tubular is above that price.

I was thinking that as well... I know you can get a tubie for cheap, but I'm guessing it's not the quality of a Corsa or even a Pro Race 3....

bobswire

11-12-2010, 09:20 AM

You can throw tubeless in the mix ,tubeless the BEST of both Worlds.
After initial set up less maintenance, less flats yet smoother and better traction than clinchers or tubular, IMO.

fourflys

11-12-2010, 09:22 AM

You can throw tubeless in the mix ,tubeless the BEST of both Worlds.
After initial set up less maintenance, less flats yet smoother and better traction than clinchers or tubular, IMO.

I just wish there were more tire choices... although I might just bite the bullet and throw some Hutchinson's on my Kyrsium's...

Bob Loblaw

11-12-2010, 09:37 AM

BCS

11-12-2010, 09:50 AM

You can throw tubeless in the mix ,tubeless the BEST of both Worlds.

Which 2 worlds? Tubeless are neither light, nor aerodynamic. If you want both, carbon tubular is the only answer. FWIW, I ride clinchers but recently went over to a friends house to watch the whole tubular process. The complexity is vastly overrated. I might give them a try.

bobswire

11-12-2010, 09:53 AM

Cheaper, easier.

I raced on tubulars in high school, even trained on them some. I heard people talk about the advantages of tubular performance, and assumed they were right and I just didn't have enough miles under me to feel the difference.

By the time I got to college I had to simplify, so I sold my tubulars and went strictly clincher. Never regretted it. I have ridden tubulars from time to time in the intervening years, and I still can't tell the difference.

BL

Bob the difference at least with the tubeless is I can run lower pressure and not worry about pinch flats.
I'm only 150 lbs and use Vittoria Pave or Corsa CX and had to make sure I had them at 120lbs or higher or could experience pinch flats.
With tubeless I can run 80/90 lbs which give me a much smoother ride and traction with little if any loss in performance.
At least that is my experience thus far.

flickwet

11-12-2010, 10:42 AM

Race on sew ups

special rides on sew ups

train and everyday clinches it for me.

Likes2ridefar

11-12-2010, 11:21 AM

Which 2 worlds? Tubeless are neither light, nor aerodynamic. If you want both, carbon tubular is the only answer. FWIW, I ride clinchers but recently went over to a friends house to watch the whole tubular process. The complexity is vastly overrated. I might give them a try.

The weight gains are hardly anything to worry about. Remember you can easily convert most any aluminum clincher wheelset, very easily I might add, with minimal weight gain, and in some cases you'll even lose weight depending on your previous setup.

A hed c2 wheel with a fusion 3 is hardly a sail. the tire looks like a tubular on the wider rim being very round with a smooth transition to the rim. on a zipp 101 the same is true, and zipp claims their 101 is more aero than most 40+mm deep carbon wheels.

jbrainin

11-12-2010, 11:30 AM

It's easy to change a flat with a clincher tire. It's easy to change a flat with a tubular tire. Tubulars are lighter than an equivalent clincher rim. I use tubulars on one bike and clinchers on the other two. All good.

Ralph

11-12-2010, 11:40 AM

Some of you are just discovering tubulars and some of us were riding them in the late 60's and 70's. They seem to go out of style, then come back, go out, etc.

I think tubulars are actually less trouble to deal with than regular clinchers, because gluing them on in my garage is no big deal, once you're got your method down pat, and changing one on the side of the road is much simpler with a tubular I think. Just strip the flat one off, put the new one on (hopefully it is a used one with some glue on it), and it'll get you home OK...just be a little careful connering. Then you can reglue it, or put another tire on, and put your spare back in the sock. I would carry my spare usually in an old sock (to keep strap from wearing into sidewall) held on with an old toe strap. Simple.

But I ride clinchers these days. I just got tired of flatting expensive tubulars, and throwing them away, when I can just buy a $6 tube for a clincher. You can buy soft compound, relatively short life, good riding/racing clinchers like Michelin Pro Race 3's (as an example), or hard compound, long lasting, hard riding, flat resistent clinchers like Contenental Ultra Gatorskins. Make your choice. You have a good choice with tubulars also, but not quite as extensive.

Unless someone was giving me tires free, if I was a racer, I would train on clinchers, and race on tubulars....with latest wheel technology. To me, clinchers have mostly bridged the gap to tubulars, and some of the tubless clinchers are even closer to tubulars in performance. Well....that's the opinion of this 69 year old whose first Schwinn Paramount in 1973 came with tubulars, and I rode tubulars on various bikes until about 10 years ago, when I switched all my wheels over to clinchers for the kind of riding I do now. And the kind of riding you do has a lot to do with this decision. Also....as an old retired guy, I probably have more desposable income now to spend on bike stuff than when I had 2-3 kids in college, but have got more conservative in my old age with regard to tire costs. I'm just grateful now to be able to ride about every day, I'm less pickie about equipment.

djg

11-12-2010, 12:55 PM

My reasons are pretty eccentric. I got a killer deal on some reynolds attack clinchers and had the rear rebuilt around a powertap hub. So that became my powertap wheel and it gets a lot of use.

Cross season -- well, I prefer tubular tires on the race wheels but want to spend time on the cross bike during the week, including commuting. A set of clincher wheels allows me to throw on an inexpensive file tread for days when I'm mostly on pavement but want to jump up on the grass a bit as well. They also allow quick tire changes for different conditions.

So the long and the short of it is that I really do prefer tubular tires (good ones, that is) and really don't consider them to be unreliable or a particular pain, but I end up spending at least half my days on the bike riding clinchers. Go figure.

Louis

11-12-2010, 01:18 PM

IMO the hassle of dealing with flats on the road is the single biggest issue with tubulars.

Ralph

11-12-2010, 02:12 PM

IMO the hassle of dealing with flats on the road is the single biggest issue with tubulars.

Once you have done it a couple times, I think you will agree it's easier to change out a tubular on the side of the road than put a new tube in a clincher. And a lot faster. All you have to do is quickly strip off old tire, put new one on real quick about 1/2 way straight, put a little air in it, spend a few seconds getting it a little straighter, then pump it up with your inflator to 70-90 lbs or something. It'll get you home. I don't really care if it's got glue on it if I can get enough air in it to hold it on. Then ride real careful until I can do it right. There is always some glue on rim.

If I was good at patching tubulars, and it didn't take so long to repair them (for me anyway). I would still ride them. I have repaired a few, and just didn't have the equipment to do it right.

jbrainin

11-12-2010, 02:47 PM

One can fix most tubular flats with a can of Vittoria PitStop. I've been able to ride tires that had been punctured while almost new until they wore out after using PitStop.

Likes2ridefar

11-12-2010, 02:49 PM

One can fix most tubular flats with a can of Vittoria PitStop. I've been able to ride tires that had been punctured while almost new until they wore out after using PitStop.

I've never used the stuff, but I've read so many instances where the stuff fails even on very small punctures.

Perhaps it's just the failed attempts causing more people to complain than satisfied customers??

jbrainin

11-12-2010, 02:52 PM

I think it works as effectively as the sealant in tubeless tires. Gotta take a little bit of care when using it and absolutely have to follow the instructions but it's saved four tires for me.

Louis

11-12-2010, 03:16 PM

I think it works as effectively as the sealant in tubeless tires.

This just tells me to stay away from tubeless.

I just bought an Ultegra WH-6700 tubeless wheelset, but I doubt that I'll run tubeless tires for this very reason.

Likes2ridefar

11-12-2010, 03:18 PM

This just tells me to stay away from tubeless.

I just bought an Ultegra WH-67700 tubeless wheelset, but I doubt that I'll run tubeless tires for this very reason.

Your loss, almost everyone I know this year that I race with, in other words people who puts in LOTS of miles usually starting on terrible NYC roads, converted their wheels to tubeless and I've not heard one person say they are going back to tubes any day soon for their training wheels.

Dlevy05

11-12-2010, 03:38 PM

I rode and raced xc and dh for about 10 years before buying my first road bike. For many converts to this sector of the sport (I'd assume there are a few out there), clinchers are the immediate choice due to price, availability, ease of use while on the go, and most importantly FAMILIARITY.

Edit: can't comment on tubeless, but want to try them at some point.

bobswire

11-12-2010, 03:43 PM

This just tells me to stay away from tubeless.

I just bought an Ultegra WH-67700 tubeless wheelset, but I doubt that I'll run tubeless tires for this very reason.

Great, take advice from folks who have a theory but no experience over those who actually ride them.
Your loss.
I been a cyclist since the 70's and all my early rides were sew-ups,loved them
but as I got older and clinchers got better I went that way the last twenty years.
After hearing and reading about tubeless I figured to give them a try and boy I'm glad I did. This is just my opinion but at least it is based on something besides hearsay or internet chatter.

Pegoready

11-12-2010, 03:47 PM

Once you have done it a couple times, I think you will agree it's easier to change out a tubular on the side of the road than put a new tube in a clincher. And a lot faster. All you have to do is quickly strip off old tire, put new one on real quick about 1/2 way straight, put a little air in it, spend a few seconds getting it a little straighter, then pump it up with your inflator to 70-90 lbs or something. It'll get you home. I don't really care if it's got glue on it if I can get enough air in it to hold it on. Then ride real careful until I can do it right. There is always some glue on rim.

If I was good at patching tubulars, and it didn't take so long to repair them (for me anyway). I would still ride them. I have repaired a few, and just didn't have the equipment to do it right.

But what's the fun for the rest of the ride? You have to constantly be aware that your fixed tire is not glued on. You can't corner at speed with confidence. With a clincher fix, it's 100% ready to perform at the same level pre-flat.

Louis

11-12-2010, 03:58 PM

Great, take advice from folks who have a theory but no experience over those who actually ride them.
Your loss.
I been a cyclist since the 70's and all my early rides were sew-ups,loved them
but as I got older and clinchers got better I went that way the last twenty years.
After hearing and reading about tubeless I figured to give them a try and boy I'm glad I did. This is just my opinion but at least it is based on something besides hearsay or internet chatter.

Everything here is internet chatter. ;)

So how do you handle flats on a tubeless tire?

Carry a spare?
Use sealant?

I'm willing to try tubeless, but I'm trying to understand the pros and cons.

Likes2ridefar

11-12-2010, 04:02 PM

Everything here is internet chatter. ;)

So how do you handle flats on a tubeless tire?

Carry a spare?
Use sealant?

I'm willing to try tubeless, but I'm trying to understand the pros and cons.

Like you would any other clincher. I carry exactly what I would were I riding with tubes. I've still never had a flat with tubeless, but have heard the sealant fix two flats this year while riding with minimal loss of pressure.

It'll be a little (a lot maybe) messier of a change, but it's no different than a regular clincher tire.

I've read, but not actually seen in person, where people say it's very difficult to get the tire on. My experience with 3 different wheelsets is the tire was no more difficult than any other clincher tire I've used.

sixfootbrit

11-12-2010, 04:04 PM

Love the magic carpet ride of tubs, but at the end of the day, clinchers make life a little easier. Actually, a lot easier!

Louis

11-12-2010, 04:06 PM

Like you would any other clincher. I carry exactly what I would were I riding with tubes.

I'm confused.

When riding clinchers I carry an extra tube and quickie patches.

Does one just put the tube in the tubeless tire, or patch the inside of the tire?

I know nothing about tubeless.

torquer

11-12-2010, 04:06 PM

But what's the fun for the rest of the ride? You have to constantly be aware that your fixed tire is not glued on. You can't corner at speed with confidence. With a clincher fix, it's 100% ready to perform at the same level pre-flat.
Bingo!
For racing, where a flat either ends your day or is resolved with a wheel change, fine, go with tubulars.
But if, like most of us, your competition is limited to sprints to the town limit signs, clinchers will keep you rolling all day long (and, with a patch kit, through multiple flats).
I started my "serious" riding in the 80's, when tubulars were the only option for racers. When I got back into riding 15 years later, clinchers were so much better that I didn't miss the gluing and time/expense of repairs; sure, roadside repairs took longer, but I considered it a fair trade-off. I've tried tubulars again a few times since, but I just don't feel the magic anymore.

flydhest

11-12-2010, 04:08 PM

Likes2ridefar

11-12-2010, 04:32 PM

I'm confused.

When riding clinchers I carry an extra tube and quickie patches.

Does one just put the tube in the tubeless tire, or patch the inside of the tire?

I know nothing about tubeless.

you just put a tube in and put the tire back on. the tubeless tire looks the same as a regular clincher tire so there will be no surprises.

if the cut is huge you'll need to patch the tire too. i usually carry a park tool tire boot - flat and weighs nothing, a tube, tire lever, and a co2 kit.

crownjewelwl

11-12-2010, 05:02 PM

Like you would any other clincher. I carry exactly what I would were I riding with tubes. I've still never had a flat with tubeless, but have heard the sealant fix two flats this year while riding with minimal loss of pressure.

It'll be a little (a lot maybe) messier of a change, but it's no different than a regular clincher tire.

I've read, but not actually seen in person, where people say it's very difficult to get the tire on. My experience with 3 different wheelsets is the tire was no more difficult than any other clincher tire I've used.

I ran a set of Shamal 2-Way fits with Fusion 3s. A couple of times the sealant did the trick, but I did have one flat that required a tube. I can normally change tire w/o levers. In this case, I struggled for a half hour before I finally got the tire back on. And by the time I did, the bead was damaged and I had to call a taxi anyway. It may have been this wheelset/tire combo or my set up in particular. I do think the bead is supposed to be much firmer on a tubeless tire since that is what is needed to make a proper seal. Back on regular clinchers.

mister

11-12-2010, 07:39 PM

went on a long ride once and my brother was riding a sprinter that was worn down to the casing. he flatted around 70 miles or so.
put on an old spare that had some glue on it.
he made it through all the long sweepers int he rolling hills at 25-30mph, some of them pretty tight.

it's not like you can't ride at a descent pace when you've got a spare on.
the preglued spare on a preglued rim is as good a bond as most peoples glue jobs...

even the mid lever tubs will ride better than most all the clinchers.

Likes2ridefar

11-12-2010, 07:46 PM

they really ride that much better?

I must not be very sensitive. I race on tubulars and train on clinchers and tubeless. To me, clinchers and tubular of roughly the same quality are fairly similar. i can feel a big increase in smoothness from a gp4000 to a vittoria 320tpi clincher and the same goes for tubulars.

tubeless on the other hand is like riding a top end tubular with latex only better. it's significantly cheaper and is more flat resistant. My opinion is it corners better than anything I've ever used especially on the wider rims used by a few different companies. The first time you go around a corner you feel like you oversteered because you rail around it so quickly.

firerescuefin

11-12-2010, 07:52 PM

even the mid lever tubs will ride better than most all the clinchers.

I have raced quite a bit...own both (tubs and clinchers), and I find statements like this laughable. High end clinchers ride just fine. I can't remember the last ride I was on (on clinchers) when I thought to myself....I sure wish I was on tubulars. I have been on a ride with tubulars when I had the unlucky second flat....and my wife had to drive out 60 miles to get me.

You know the weather is getting crappy when there are 3 pages of banter about types of tires.

thwart

11-12-2010, 07:58 PM

Both, I think, are good options nowadays.

I've had amazingly good luck on clinchers running 85/95 PSI (I weigh 150 lbs) front and rear, around 5K each of the past couple of years---with a total of 3 flats in 2 yrs.

That said, I'm trying tubulars again, after having a nightmare experience trying to remove a bad tubie flat (PitStop wouldn't work---a huge hole) that was Tufo taped on a couple of years ago. Now I'm sticking with glue... ;) :D
BTW, I think there is something to that tubie magic, especially if you factor in the psychological advantage of knowing you're running lighter stuff.

Where it really seems to make sense to run tubies is 'Cross, where apparently folks are compromising between running low PSI to get traction, and yet not too low to get pinch flats.

Louis

11-12-2010, 08:32 PM

Assuming we're talking about 1 mm puncture, not a 10 mm cut, how do you patch a tubeless tire?

Are you forever condemned to use it with the tube you put on when you got the flat?

rice rocket

11-12-2010, 08:44 PM

Where it really seems to make sense to run tubies is 'Cross, where apparently folks are compromising between running low PSI to get traction, and yet not too low to get pinch flats.
Not to go off topic, but can someone explain this?

Why not run wider tires and not run ridiculously low pressures?

flickwet

11-12-2010, 09:13 PM

tubies are easy to replace, difficult to repair; and dynamically superior but the gap closes. Clinchers easy to repair. dynamically the clincher pelotan may catch the tubular technology break away. Aren't I too clever by far?

flickwet

11-12-2010, 09:30 PM

Not to go off topic, but can someone explain this?

Why not run wider tires and not run ridiculously low pressures?
conventional wisdom is leaning that way

200 lb rider,and for simplicities sake equal weight distribution, 100 lbs in each tire 1" contact patch whether the tire is 1' wide or 2'wide, weight and aero are factors rolling resistance depends on construction, think bias ply versus radial. The contact patch on the wide tire is more "lateral" the narrow tire is more linear the dynamics of each tire can change dramatically. GENERALLY speaking and for a given construction technique and materials, the narrower tire can take a higher pressure due to reduced casing arc, greater pressure reduces the contact patch reducing the coeficient of distortion drag within the casing thus making a thinner tire theoretically faster, surface conditions however can have an even greater effect. But that's why track bikes don't run 28mm tires, But Paris-Rubaix bikes may.

Likes2ridefar

11-12-2010, 09:37 PM

Not to go off topic, but can someone explain this?

Why not run wider tires and not run ridiculously low pressures?

I race in UCI events and max tire width is 33c. they actually have calipers to measure the tire before you start the race.

Likes2ridefar

11-12-2010, 09:41 PM

Assuming we're talking about 1 mm puncture, not a 10 mm cut, how do you patch a tubeless tire?

Are you forever condemned to use it with the tube you put on when you got the flat?

If the sealant fixes the cut or puncture you just keep on riding. I've taken off mtb tires that had tons of crap stuck through them and they were sealed all over. I never even knew it...

Louis

11-12-2010, 09:48 PM

If the sealant fixes the cut or puncture

So is it SOP to ride with sealant in all tubeless tires?

Earlier somebody said they just insert a tube, so I assumed folks did not use sealant on wheels that were built to handle tubeless.

I was wondering what they did once the got home. (What's the sense in going tubeless if you have to use a tube after the first flat?)

This is getting complicated. I think I understand clinchers (spare tube or patch) and tubulars (sewing kit and patch or spare tire or FastAir repair device). Just trying to figure out the tubeless options.

Likes2ridefar

11-12-2010, 10:03 PM

it's really not that complicated. just ride your bike ;)

tubeless wheels don't require sealant but personally I'd always use it simply because it will fix most flats and keep you riding.

conversion wheels require sealant. converted wheels - pretty much any aluminum wheel can be converted - require stan's yellow rim tape which weighs next to nothing.

i've had the best experience with stan's sealant but some like calfee and i'm sure there are others.

spartacus

11-13-2010, 05:48 AM

....and my wife had to drive out 60 miles to get me.

What a gal!

spartacus

11-13-2010, 05:52 AM

But that's why track bikes don't run 28mm tires, But Paris-Rubaix bikes may.

If the frameset was designed for a Paris Roubaix it will be ridden with 27mm/ 28mm tires. Unfortunately most road framesets are designed for 'dream' riding and will not have the necessary spacng for 'real' tires. :beer:

firerescuefin

11-13-2010, 06:33 AM

What a gal!

Yeah....I would not chalk her up as a tubular fan. Let's just say I wasn't talking about the ride quality and suppleness on the way home.

binxnyrwarrsoul

11-13-2010, 06:43 AM

If the frameset was designed for a Paris Roubaix it will be ridden with 27mm/ 28mm tires. Unfortunately most road framesets are designed for 'dream' riding and will not have the necessary spacng for 'real' tires. :beer:
LMAO "dream riding"

crownjewelwl

11-13-2010, 09:14 AM

Assuming we're talking about 1 mm puncture, not a 10 mm cut, how do you patch a tubeless tire?

Are you forever condemned to use it with the tube you put on when you got the flat?

On the occasions that sealant "fixed" a small puncture for me, I still patched them when I got home. I had a spewing incident where I thought the sealant did the trick. But the next time I rolled out, about half a mile from my house sealant starting shooting out of the hole. You patch from the inside with a rubber patch and what is essentially super glue.

Louis

11-13-2010, 01:49 PM

You patch from the inside with a rubber patch and what is essentially super glue.

Thanks.

I did some poking around last night and found what you confirm here - tubeless tires patch kit.

It might be a while before I get around to using those tubeless wheels but when I do it sounds like tubeless tires might be an interesting experiment. In the meantime it's PR...

djg

11-13-2010, 02:16 PM

I do not find changing tubulars to be that onerous on the side of the road. Changing clinchers if you ride Campy wheels can actually be a lot more difficult.

Yesterday, rode a different bike and it didn't have a saddle bag with tube and CO2. Turns out, I didn't flat. What's my point?

These things happen my friend. Every season or two, somebody has a ride, or maybe two or three rides in a row without a flat tire, or maybe just one flat, and he starts to think that the relative ease of changing a tire by the side of the road with one type of tire or another might not be the only consideration when choosing wheels and tires.

leooooo

11-13-2010, 04:45 PM

Why are clinchers harder to change when riding Campy?

rice rocket

11-13-2010, 08:07 PM

Because you're riding campy. You should have someone changing tires for you, not getting your kit all dirty with road grime. :P

thwart

11-13-2010, 08:21 PM

Why are clinchers harder to change when riding Campy?Campy rims are a little larger than average in circumference. In theory this makes it more difficult for a tire to roll off the rim in case you flat going downhill or cornering at speed.

Although, I think I like 'rice rocket's explanation much better... :D

gearguywb

11-14-2010, 04:59 AM

Why are clinchers harder to change when riding Campy?

They are actually much easier...just raise your hand for the team car :)

leooooo

11-14-2010, 07:32 AM

I am so raising my arm when something happens from now on :help:
Never knew this perk existed :banana: :banana:

JSH

11-14-2010, 06:22 PM

I am new to tubulars. I would like to carry a very light weight spare to get home. Emphasis on the light weight. Any suggestions. Thanks.

MRB

11-14-2010, 06:25 PM

They are actually much easier...just raise your hand for the team car :)
That only works if the team car is behind you, not in front of you. Also you can really make it convenient by showing an open palm to signal a front wheel is needed, or a fist to indicate a rear wheel is needed.

This only works in a supported race, when the support vehicle is behind you. And it does not work for weekend rides or commuting ;)

mister

11-14-2010, 08:58 PM

I have raced quite a bit...own both (tubs and clinchers), and I find statements like this laughable. High end clinchers ride just fine. I can't remember the last ride I was on (on clinchers) when I thought to myself....I sure wish I was on tubulars. I have been on a ride with tubulars when I had the unlucky second flat....and my wife had to drive out 60 miles to get me.

You know the weather is getting crappy when there are 3 pages of banter about types of tires.

gotta admit i don't spend money on high end clinchers.
if i'm riding clinchers i'm usually on something tough like a conti gp4000 or gp4season.
maybe i'm feeling the difference between open pro's and old gp4 or ambrosio f20 rims...

thwart

11-14-2010, 10:02 PM

I am new to tubulars. I would like to carry a very light weight spare to get home. Emphasis on the light weight. Any suggestions. Thanks.Certainly no expert, but I bring an older, glued tubie (anything around that holds air) along.

Hey, the difference between a super-light spare and your average well-used Conti Sprinter, for example, is equivalent to 1-2 oz in your water bottle. And, remember, it's not rotating weight... yet. ;)