Custom Frame Builders question

[BCS]

A question for those of you who have bought custom frames from single person builders, Kirk, Strong, Zank, etc:

Did you had a professional fit done locally and mailed the numbers to the builder or did you visit the shop directly? Re-reading some of Dave Kirk's posts on bike fit have me wondering if a trip to i.e. Montana might be very beneficial. Are there nuances in custom building that a face-to face interaction influences?

[dave thompson]

I did both. Had a fit done by Michael Sylvester in Portland then spent some time riding with Dave Kirk in Bozeman. It's my opinion that a face-to-face with the builder, IF he's good at watching someone and figuring out the best fit, is ideal. Riding is dynamic and under the watchful eyes of a competent builder will be the best way to go. Dave is far more than competent.

[moran]

I have done both, and both worked out well. I would recommend the trip though if you have the time Then you know for certain the fit will be "spot on". Also, I always enjoyed the face-to-face interaction with the person building my bike.

[Pete Serotta]

Dave can do it both ways but a visit and fitting by him would be fun.


Experienced builders can also do nicely with a fit by a good fitter and also talking to you to understand riding requirements and type of riding.

[SamIAm]

A question for those of you who have bought custom frames from single person builders, Kirk, Strong, Zank, etc:

Did you had a professional fit done locally and mailed the numbers to the builder or did you visit the shop directly? Re-reading some of Dave Kirk's posts on bike fit have me wondering if a trip to i.e. Montana might be very beneficial. Are there nuances in custom building that a face-to face interaction influences?

I don't think a trip to Dave's place is necessary for him to deliver the goods, but if you can afford it from a time and money perspective, it would be fun and give you the peace of mind to never ask "what if". There is some value in that.

[Lewym]

I don't think a trip to Dave's place is necessary for him to deliver the goods, but if you can afford it from a time and money perspective, it would be fun and give you the peace of mind to never ask "what if". There is some value in that.

. . . . and it would be a perfect excuse to get some quality skiing in. :banana:

[jlwdm]

I think a trip to see the builder and where he works really adds to the custom bike experience. Besides the chance for a better fit it just adds a lot of great visual images whenever you ride the bike.

I went to the "barn" to see Tom Kellogg and am really glad that I did.

Jeff

[alexstar]

I don't think a trip to Dave's place is necessary for him to deliver the goods, but if you can afford it from a time and money perspective, it would be fun and give you the peace of mind to never ask "what if". There is some value in that.


This is exactly what I am planning for next summer. Hi Dave!

[Pete Serotta]

I think a trip to see the builder and where he works really adds to the custom bike experience. Besides the chance for a better fit it just adds a lot of great visual images whenever you ride the bike.

I went to the "barn" to see Tom Kellogg and am really glad that I did.

Jeff

YEP>>>>>>also did it for Richard Sachs...

YES Ben and team can also provide this......... Paraic, Steve, and Scott are usually around. You can be fitted, specced and ordered in the same visit :D

[David Kirk]

Hey there,

Thanks for including me in this conversation.

I think it's fun to meet the builder face to face when you can but it's hardly required to get good results. I live in the middle of nowhere and get only 2-3 visits a year. I think that most builders, even those in more populated areas, don't get many visits. The simple fact of the matter is that if the builder has a good solid system of fitting that can be done at a distance that is based on lots of fitting and building that the results will be just as you'd hope they'd be.

I know builders all have their own unique way of doing it but here is a rough outline of what I do -

* I get a comprehensive list of your body dimensions. I have a full on detailed description of how to best take these measurements on my website. When you have looked at body dimensions as many times as I have you very quickly see when the measurements were not taken correctly.
* I get your current bike set-up dimensions as a check to the above and to get an idea of how you are used to sitting on the bike. Same as above - there is a guide to getting the right numbers on my site.
* I have an extensive questionnaire that the client fills out that gives me a very good idea of how the bike will be used, where it will be used and the style of rider that will use it.
* I trade nearly endless emails and even phone calls (Gasp - I know the phone is very 1998) with the customer to be sure I have a very solid impression of what needs to be done.
* On very rare (once a year?) occasions I will feel that all the above info is not adding up and it just seems incomplete or incongruous in some way. When this happens I ask for photos of the rider on the bike, on the road - this always taxes the rider/spouse relationship since they are tired of hearing all about this new bike at dinner time already - to get a full mental picture of that we have going on.

So, while I always welcome a visit, it's not needed to get the results we both want.

I hope that makes sense - let me know if you'd like more info.



Dave

[ergott]

I did steps 1 and 2 above when I got my Zanconato cross bike.

He sent me the numbers he worked out and I didn't question them. Love the bike.

[BengeBoy]

I've bought 2 custom frames, and -- not being an expert in any sense of the word -- I decided to buy local so I could visit the builder in person, take my existing bike, see the builder(s) shop(s), etc.

Being from Seattle (aka "gateway to Portland") my decision to buy local only narrowed it down to a few hundred framebuilders, so I guess I was spoiled for choice.

But having done it, I would certainly try to visit the builder in person if I could, especially if they lived somewhere interesting (like Montana...).

Just to clarify - I would have no problem working via email or phone with one of the many expert builders who do lots of long-distance work -- but it sure is fun to go through the process face to face.

[rugbysecondrow]

I don't think it is necessary. Smiley is a great fitter and treated me right, so I have no doubt about him being able to act as my translator in giving the proper info to the builder. I also think a great builder might be a great fitter as well, but why not find the best fitter and the beat builder for your project? Knowing all that goes into the fitting process, find the bet guy locally or fly to smiley to get it done.

This is nothing against Dave or any particular builder, but when I have an electrical issue, I hire an electrician and not a plumber.

[Steevo]

I purchased my first and only custom direct from Dave Kirk and pretty much followed the steps in the process as he outlined. I probably had myself measured 4 times to get it right, spoke and traded emails with Dave for a while and then waited. During the wait period I occasionally worried that I should have had a pro fitting done and sent the data to Dave. Once I built the bike, any concerns were quickly dismissed. The fit was spot on. The bike rides better than even I expected. One of the great things about my experience was Dave telling me that I would be able to generate more power with the new bike than I could with my current bike. He was so right!! My Kirk has helped me become a stronger, more powerful and quicker rider. All done via a very remote fitting process.

[weiwentg]

I did the remote fitting with my Vanilla. Sacha gave me a sheet of the specs he needed. I visited a Serotta fitter locally. I would have visited, but Oregon was too far. Anyway, the bike fits perfectly.

[Smiley]

I think it can work either way, I have done way too many custom fits to count but working under the Serotta methodology has worked great for me and my clients. It helps when you have a great builder on the other end understanding this methodology too. Fits done for Sacha White, Co-Motion, Serotta and Bedford bikes. I am sure folks like Levine at Signature, Ron Keifel in Boulder, Kathy Krume in Cincinnati probably have equally fantastic track records too. Not wanting to omit BTW others like Rick Trainer in VT and Andrew Fullerton in Vancouver BC and many more I can't remember them all.

[nahtnoj]

I don't think it is necessary. Smiley is a great fitter and treated me right, so I have no doubt about him being able to act as my translator in giving the proper info to the builder. I also think a great builder might be a great fitter as well, but why not find the best fitter and the beat builder for your project? Knowing all that goes into the fitting process, find the bet guy locally or fly to smiley to get it done.

This is nothing against Dave or any particular builder, but when I have an electrical issue, I hire an electrician and not a plumber.


Did Smiley figure out your contact points while Kelly was responsible for the frame geometry? I think this could be a useful filter in a long distance situation.

I don't agree that a fitter should be providing input on frame design, but I don't think that it what you are suggesting?

[Smiley]

Did Smiley figure out your contact points while Kelly was responsible for the frame geometry? I think this could be a useful filter in a long distance situation.

I don't agree that a fitter should be providing input on frame design, but I don't think that it what you are suggesting?


Frame design was between Kelly and I and we work together well on other things that affect what a client wants his bike to ride like. It's not just about contact points when Kelly and I collaborate clients bikes.

[etu]

for my Strong frame, i worked with an experienced local fitter who over the course of 8 weeks adjusted my fit. much happier with the changes he made. he then sent Carl the contact point measurements as well as some suggestions on the bike geometry. ultimately Carl determined the final numbers on the bike. the result has been outstanding. :D

[rugbysecondrow]

Did Smiley figure out your contact points while Kelly was responsible for the frame geometry? I think this could be a useful filter in a long distance situation.

I don't agree that a fitter should be providing input on frame design, but I don't think that it what you are suggesting?
I can't speak to who exactly did what, what I meant was that having a local person who can dial in a fit (over multiple visits) is very useful. In addition, I can describe how I ride, what I want the bike for, what my issues are (back problems) and a good fitter will help translate all of this and communicate well to the builder. I know what I want, but Smiley helped put it into a language that can be apied usefully. Frankly, I would not do it any other way. I am not saying a builder can't do this, but a good fitter likely has more experience at fitting so why not use the person who is most experienced?

[rnhood]

I would go straight to the builder, just as I would go straight to an artist if I wanted to commission a painting for my living room wall. I would not want to risk a translation or interpretation anomaly due to a third party. Going to Montana to visit Dave, or Carl Strong, going to the Barn to visit Tom, going to the Serotta factory to visit Paraic, etc., that's what I'd do.

Having said this, there are a lot of good fitters around so the risk of error is likely pretty small. Orange Cycle in Orlando can do an excellent job with bike fit, not to mention its a very good shop.

But given the cost of custom frames, I would go to the builder. Its only one trip and you will ride the bike for years.

[Smiley]

I would go straight to the builder, just as I would go straight to an artist if I wanted to commission a painting for my living room wall. I would not want to risk a translation or interpretation anomaly due to a third party. Going to Montana to visit Dave, or Carl Strong, going to the Barn to visit Tom, going to the Serotta factory to visit Paraic, etc., that's what I'd do.

Having said this, there are a lot of good fitters around so the risk of error is likely pretty small. Orange Cycle in Orlando can do an excellent job with bike fit, not to mention its a very good shop.

But given the cost of custom frames, I would go to the builder. Its only one trip and you will ride the bike for years.


That's not a practical solution since any fitter worth a dam should see you on your current set up in my opinion first. So taking your current rig with you should be added to your check list of travel requirements. Alas a good fit is a process not a one time one shot deal especially if you need to take corrective actions for a client who is all wrong on their current rig. Think of that issue and tell me if a good fit can be done in a one shot trip. Smiley

[jlwdm]

YEP>>>>>>also did it for Richard Sachs...

YES Ben and team can also provide this......... Paraic, Steve, and Scott are usually around. You can be fitted, specced and ordered in the same visit :D

I was fortunate that Paraic was still in AZ when I ordered my Serotta. Nobody better.

Jeff

[rugbysecondrow]

I would go straight to the builder, just as I would go straight to an artist if I wanted to commission a painting for my living room wall. I would not want to risk a translation or interpretation anomaly due to a third party. Going to Montana to visit Dave, or Carl Strong, going to the Barn to visit Tom, going to the Serotta factory to visit Paraic, etc., that's what I'd do.

Having said this, there are a lot of good fitters around so the risk of error is likely pretty small. Orange Cycle in Orlando can do an excellent job with bike fit, not to mention its a very good shop.

But given the cost of custom frames, I would go to the builder. Its only one trip and you will ride the bike for years.
I am no expert, but seems that fitting is a process different than building. Also, assuming that a builder is a good fitter is a leap I don't think one should universally make.

[dekindy]

I am no expert, but seems that fitting is a process different than building. Also, assuming that a builder is a good fitter is a leap I don't think one should universally make.

That is my concern also.

[David Kirk]

I am no expert, but seems that fitting is a process different than building. Also, assuming that a builder is a good fitter is a leap I don't think one should universally make.

I agree. Fitting is different than building - but some people are capable of doing different things well. I think assuming that the builder is not a skilled fitter because you think of him as a builder first sells many builders short.

The simple fact of the matter is that some builders are good fitters and some aren't. For that matter some fitters are good frame designers and some aren't......... Some builders are not good at building and some fitters are not good at fitting......... so it goes. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

I think if you pick the actual person and not the segment and you will be fine. There are builders out there who can and do offer top notch fitting and building services under one roof. If you choose one of these guys you can get it done in one stop. If you want to be double sure you can add a pro local fitting to the process and then give this info to the builder. You can choose a builder who just builds to order then you can give him the sizing your fitter came up with and wait for the bike to arrive.

There is a lot of gray area here and it comes down to dealing with the builder and their unique qualifications. Saying that the only way to get a good result is the have your fitting and building services separated is at best short sighted and at worst self serving for some of the gentlemen posting here.

Dave

[rePhil]

I did a backward confirmation. I decided on the geometry I like pretty much on my own. I ordered a Marinoni (pre internet)based on the bike I was riding. A few years later I was in Montreal and stopped in at the factory for a visit. Mr. Marinoni took the time to give me a fit, and confirmed the size I was riding was the right one.

[Peter P.]

I did neither.

I've ordered 4 custom frames over some 35 years. In none of those instances did I have a pro fit or pro measurement done. In fact, when measurements were required, I measured myself vs. using an assistant. All the frames turned out fine. I also never visited the builders as they were too far away.

I'd bet most of the reputable builders out there rarely deal directly with their customers and as Dave Kirk pointed out, they have systems in place and the experience to tell when the numbers aren't right. Also, with the internet you can send photos of yourself, your current bikes, and even videos of you riding a trainer if necessary, to the builder for clarification.

The flaw I see in having a professional fit done is it seems like the builder would be trying to build to the FITTER'S idea of what is correct. The builder doesn't NEED a fitter; the builder needs YOU-YOUR body measurements, YOUR bike dimensions, and maybe photos/videos of you/your bike if you just wanna go wild.

I certainly would have some concern with builders who lack the experience. This can be offset by a customer with enough knowledge to know either what they want in a frame or how to measure themselves.

[rugbysecondrow]

It seems you offer a fine service to your customers and I am not trying to argue that point. The OP asked a specific question about what process people took and, frankly, I can speak directly to the value of a local fitter. The ability to have this expert local was invaluable to me. There is a relationship and trust there that I think is important not just for one fit, but for future projects as well. Let me also say that I am batting .500 in dealing with builders who are reliable, Bedford is awesome and you can PM for the other.

I understand your perspective as a builder, but as a consumer (who is batting .500) I am not afraid to sell builders short when it comes to that part of the process. I hope you dont take offense as it is not intended, but there is a lot of money on the line (a lot for me at least). Frankly, having a great fitter and a great builder should, and has, yielded a great product.

Let me also add that I have rarely seen somebody as passionate about what he does as Smiley. The time, care and attention to detail on the customers behalf is incredible. For what he charges vs the time he spends, let's just say his customers get one hell of a deal. I wouldn't mistake his passion for anything other than what it is.

I agree. Fitting is different than building - but some people are capable of doing different things well. I think assuming that the builder is not a skilled fitter because you think of him as a builder first sells many builders short.

The simple fact of the matter is that some builders are good fitters and some aren't. For that matter some fitters are good frame designers and some aren't......... Some builders are not good at building and some fitters are not good at fitting......... so it goes. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

I think if you pick the actual person and not the segment and you will be fine. There are builders out there who can and do offer top notch fitting and building services under one roof. If you choose one of these guys you can get it done in one stop. If you want to be double sure you can add a pro local fitting to the process and then give this info to the builder. You can choose a builder who just builds to order then you can give him the sizing your fitter came up with and wait for the bike to arrive.

There is a lot of gray area here and it comes down to dealing with the builder and their unique qualifications. Saying that the only way to get a good result is the have your fitting and building services separated is at best short sighted and at worst self serving for some of the gentlemen posting here.

Dave

[jeffreyt]

I had my Jonny cross bike built based upon a fit sheet, but I personally went to visit Drew when I had my Engin road bike built. Both Jon and Drew had a slightly different take on their fitting, but both fit/ride/handle great. I couldn't be happier with both. Of course I've been riding for a long time, I have gone through many-many frames, and I have a good understanding of how I want my bike to ride.

My only suggestion would be to have a good understanding of how you want the bike to handle (stability, comfort, handling, etc.), be able to clearly describe your needs to the builder, trust the builder if he says something won't work, but don't be afraid to walk away.

Story... I waited in line for well over a year for my number to be called by a well respected east coast builder. After doing a fitting and several phone calls, his fitting numbers were so far off that I just didn't trust him and I walked away. I finally got him to admit that he was busy getting ready to go on vacation and didn't pay attention to my fit sheet. I lost half my deposit, but I wasn't going to pay $2000 plus and worry about his dedication to my frame & fork.

[Frankwurst]

Curt has called more than once. We have talked. He will build. I'm sleeping just fine. I'll let you know how it all turns out. :beer:

[nahtnoj]

I can't speak to who exactly did what, what I meant was that having a local person who can dial in a fit (over multiple visits) is very useful. In addition, I can describe how I ride, what I want the bike for, what my issues are (back problems) and a good fitter will help translate all of this and communicate well to the builder. I know what I want, but Smiley helped put it into a language that can be apied usefully. Frankly, I would not do it any other way. I am not saying a builder can't do this, but a good fitter likely has more experience at fitting so why not use the person who is most experienced?

You have a fantastic team with Smiley/Kelly, where it seems safe to say that Smiley rises past the level of fitter and into the realm of designer/collaborator.

I wouldn't assume that fitter X and builder X with no existing relationship would have the same dynamic, or that builder X would necessarily welcome the introduction of a 3rd party into the transaction. At the very least, I'd want to make sure the builder was comfortable with the situation.

[dekindy]

How many builders, based upon taking body dimensions and current bike dimensions and other riding information, would be able to explain and document a before and after picture of how the rider fits on the bike and compare bike dimensions and the change in bike geometry, tube type and shape and diameter and thickness, etc, and the resulting change in bike handling characteristics that would result? Is that a reasonable expectation for a customer to have for a custom builder?

I agree. Fitting is different than building - but some people are capable of doing different things well. I think assuming that the builder is not a skilled fitter because you think of him as a builder first sells many builders short.

The simple fact of the matter is that some builders are good fitters and some aren't. For that matter some fitters are good frame designers and some aren't......... Some builders are not good at building and some fitters are not good at fitting......... so it goes. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

I think if you pick the actual person and not the segment and you will be fine. There are builders out there who can and do offer top notch fitting and building services under one roof. If you choose one of these guys you can get it done in one stop. If you want to be double sure you can add a pro local fitting to the process and then give this info to the builder. You can choose a builder who just builds to order then you can give him the sizing your fitter came up with and wait for the bike to arrive.

There is a lot of gray area here and it comes down to dealing with the builder and their unique qualifications. Saying that the only way to get a good result is the have your fitting and building services separated is at best short sighted and at worst self serving for some of the gentlemen posting here.

Dave

[David Kirk]

How many builders, based upon taking body dimensions and current bike dimensions and other riding information, would be able to explain and document a before and after picture of how the rider fits on the bike and compare bike dimensions and the change in bike geometry, tube type and shape and diameter and thickness, etc, and the resulting change in bike handling characteristics that would result? Is that a reasonable expectation for a customer to have for a custom builder?

That is a good question and I honestly don't know how many builders could provide that level of service. Some I'm sure. Not all.

I speak only for myself. I tell riders what changes I feel would benefit them in regards to fit, geometry, frame stiffness and material selection and what I feel is the best path to get there. I give them a proposal of what I think I should do for them and how that differs from their current ride,. Then I explain what I feel the benefits and finally the possible downside of these changes will be. So obviously I think this level of information exchange and transparency is reasonable. Is this what you were referring to?

dave

[Hardlyrob]

I had a fitting done by our own TiDesigns, and then sent the numbers to Mr. Kirk. Ti developed the dimensions that are right for me, but did not comment on design elements - head tube angles etc. - as he feels strongly that that is the purview of the designer.

Ti and I did go for a 15 mile ride one morning to see how I ride, and how my current bikes fit me - very educational to get feedback from a practiced eye and skilled coach.

I emailed my fit numbers to Dave, we never spoke on the phone, but exchanged many emails about details, lugs, uses etc. That said, the bike that arrived is the best bike I've ever ridden, and there have been a number of custom rides over the years.

Cheers!

Rob

[Smiley]

I had a fitting done by our own TiDesigns, and then sent the numbers to Mr. Kirk. Ti developed the dimensions that are right for me, but did not comment on design elements - head tube angles etc. - as he feels strongly that that is the purview of the designer.

Ti and I did go for a 15 mile ride one morning to see how I ride, and how my current bikes fit me - very educational to get feedback from a practiced eye and skilled coach.

I emailed my fit numbers to Dave, we never spoke on the phone, but exchanged many emails about details, lugs, uses etc. That said, the bike that arrived is the best bike I've ever ridden, and there have been a number of custom rides over the years.

Cheers!

Rob
Man I forgot about TiDesigns as a very excellent fitter too. Many ways to skin Da Cat when it comes to doing a custom fit. Good choice using Ti Man, was he riding fixed when you rode together :)